FMJ vs JHP

Here's the video showing the doctors presentation with plenty of photos and videos showing proof. Long video, but worth a watch.-
https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

Also if we're talking classic FMJ rounds than .45 really does beat 9mm.....

File: 0198e6c14adb4c0bc55bb2c575483e98.jpg (23KB, 460x613px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 460x613px

Hollow points sure are pretty though...

Your logic has so many holes I don't even know what to tell you.

File: IMG_1459.jpg (49KB, 666x498px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 666x498px

>>34067395
You're absolutely right.

There seems to be an obsession with expansion above all else with handgun rounds right now, and people often disregard the penetration of a round or even consider 18"+ penetration a bad thing.

The FBI did a whole lot of research on this and concluded that, with Pistol caliber rounds (or any round that isn't fast enough to cause the destruction of tissue/veins by energy transfer alone) is that,

>Penetration is what kills.

When you're trying to kill with a handgun, you're trying to poke as many holes in a persons most vital organs as you can to induce uncontrollable and rapid blood loss, which is a handgun rounds killing mechanism.

There's no magic, no "knockdown power", and no "instant kills" barring a shot to the neurological system.

People bleed to death, the faster the do this, the faster they die.

Now, the most effective way to make a person bleed to death is by shooting them in the Heart/Lung/Aorta area.

If a round can't reliably penetrate to reach these places, it's not a good manstopper.

The FBI says rounds should penetrate 12-18" of their gel test to reliably do this.

Now, expansion factors in after a round is already capable of penetrating 12-18" (preferably closer to 18").

Obviously a bigger hole has more chance of hitting something important, and bigger holes bleed more.

It's really that simple,

>Sufficient Penetration comes first
>Expansion comes second

The ideal round penetrates both to 18" of the FBI gel test and expands.

Now, if I had an FMJ that penetrated 22", and a hollow point round that only penetrated 11", I'd ALWAYS go with the FMJ round, because it's more likely to hit something vital.

Good explanation?

>>34067395
JHP is a meme to get money from stupid or misinformed people.

>>34067769
>Sources

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

Please watch this video. It's an eye opener

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

It's a med school lecture on gunshot wounds

File: IMG_0690.png (616KB, 750x1334px) Image search: [Google]

616KB, 750x1334px

>>34067395
What brand/weight ammo was used?

>>34067754
That's more of a comment on your logic than mine don't you think? I mean the fact that you can't even think of what to tell me should tell you everything.
>>34067769
>>34067808
Yup, basically what I was saying. Shot placement is king and penetration is queen than why the hell does everyone say hollow points are better?
>>34067783
This is what I've been thinking for awhile now. Just blame the jews lol...
>>34067819
For which encounter? I used two as an example.

>>34067819
This. This makes a world of difference.

>>34067769
Exactly why a JHP which meets FBI penetration specs will always be superior to an FMJ, while his argument is that FMJ is superior. If you're not running gimmicky garbage, you have a higher probability of causing incapacitating damage with a JHP that penetrates sufficiently than an FMJ that penetrates sufficiently, and then exits the body with retained energy.

>>34067887
Because technically if a round is capable of sufficiently penetrating vitals and still expanding then it is by definition a better man stopper than a non expanding round that achieves the same penetration.

>>34067808
Ive watched this a few times actually. But what do you mean by eye opening. Handguns arent that great at killing people, is that the revelation? I always try ti explain to people that handguns really are sort of a personal defense weapon. Its a last ditch weapon to stop someone from attacking you and you wouldnt seek to engage with a handgun.

>>34067887
Both encounters out of curiousity.

>>34067887
This>>34067917

>>34067819
I think Winchester Silver Tip 9mm for the old FBI Miami shootout. Not sure about the other one. My point was that if a FMJ was used it would have made it to the heart stopping the threat faster. Even today's best Federal HST's or Speer Gold Dot might not penetrate enough on a big guy for you.
>>34067917
Just because a bullet does something to gel or fruits or something doesn't mean it's going to do the same thing to a body with bone, muscles, tendons, ect... I just think penetration>expansion is all I'm saying.
>>34067918
What you sag is true if the round fires perfectly and everything goes right like it did in Gel. But what if it doesn't perform like it did in gel. What if it hits something tough like and excessively thick bone or tumor. Also I done think that there's a hollow point that will penetrate as much as a FMJ.

>>34067984
Right, which is why rounds aren't expected to penetrate 12-18" into a persons body, they're expected to penetrate 12"-18" into gel using FBI test procedures because its measurable and repeatable.


Hypothetically, you're right in that no FMJ round penetrates less than a similarly loaded and weighted JHP round of the same caliber, but that's a semantic argument as if both rounds reach desired penetration, it's okay to start trading extra inches of penetration for expansion.

File: 1493313199013.jpg (26KB, 350x250px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 350x250px

How the fuck is Zed not in this fucking thread? This is all that fucker shitposts about besides Remington

>>34067984
Actually, i wonder how well fmj would penetrate bone. Maybe handgun rounds dont penetrate bone very well at all, fmj or not.

>>34068102
Handgun rounds that are sufficiently powerful to penetrate 12-18" of ballistics gel will most likely penetrate bone as well.

>>34068084
But what if those extra inches of penetration would have stopped the threat and saved lives but instead expanded and stopped short. In the FBI shootout I mentioned it was only by a couple of inches that the threat wasn't stopped and people died. Inches matter. It's best to get as many as you can.
>>34068102
True. Bone is incredibly tough and could stop any number of rounds. .45 has been shown to shatter bones in FMJ as proven in war.
>>34068171
See that's what I'm saying though, I don't like "most likely" or "maybe". I know there is no perfect round but ball has been tried and true.

Also here is a story about a fat boy being shot in the stomach with a .45 hollow point. He was completely fine because the round stopped in his fat. Luckily it wasn't a FMJ round or it might have killed him. This is what I mean when I say hollow points are safer. Which is a bad thing when it comes to defense in my opinion.-
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/robert-farago/range-accident-reveals-45-stopping-power-or-not/

>>34068277
Actually kinda have me wondering now.
>mfw i have to switch to fmj because fatass americans

>>34067783
Hey mudslimecunt go fuck a goat

You're not wanted in this country and you're sure as hell not wanted on this board

>>34068102
http://www.isegoria.net/2010/03/observations-from-actual-shootings/

Some dick on the internet claiming to be a crime scene investigator:

"Contrary to what I have seen posted elsewhere, there is no difference in effect between 9 mm, 40 S&W, and .45 ACP in these strikes. All do equal soft tissue damage and all break struck bones (including the femur) with equal ease.

I read a posting where it was said that 9 mm will glance off of, or be deflected by, bones. Certainly it will, as will .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 7 mm Remington Magnum if they hit at the right angle. I have never seen 9mm fail to penetrate or break bones where either .40 S&W or .45 ACP would not have."

My favorite part though:

"The vast majority of “hits” we see are superficial and usually to the extremities. I don’t know how common this is, but here many, if not most of our “shooting victims” are struck in the feet, legs, and/or buttocks — especially the buttocks."

>>34068277
>if both rounds reach desired penetration, than more expansion is desirable

I don't really understand what you don't understand about that.

There is overkill when we're talking about the need to penetrate into a humans vital organs, the FBI and most medical professionals agree that between 12-18" is fine.

The round used in the Miami shootout that famously stopped short does not reach the 12" penetration threshold the FBI recommends.

And no lol the FBI accounted for bones when putting out these recommendations, bones aren't that good at stopping bullets senpai, even a .22 will go right through

10mm
180 grains
Underwood Gold Dot

Twice the energy of 9mm, with a much heavier bullet and in a wider caliber - more mass and more diameter mean bigger potential permanent wound cavity

Half of the energy of m855 - in a test by tnoutdoors9, the round penetrated 19 inches and created what he described as a permanent wound channel unlike any other that he had ever tested.

10mm in 180,165, or 155 grain gold dots is the answer to any debate over caliber or hollow points of handguns

>>34068354
Oh God lets not go there, he made a valid point and didn't start shit by insulting people unlike you.
>>34068342
Yup, when you live in home of the burgers and beer you need as much penetration as you can get. Hence why I use FMJ.
>>34068381
Would you rather overkill someone, or underkill(as in not kill) someone. It makes sense for the FBI and all law enforcement to carry JHP as it's safer. We don't have to go by their rules though. And according to this >>34068358 guy bullets do get stopped by bullets. It's all up for debate honesty.
>>34068423
I prefer .357 Magnum personally. I could post a bunch of facts too but the round is already street proven(unlike 10mm). Also I could use a hollow point in .357 and it will still penetrate sufficiently. Love that round.

>>34068461
>357
>street cred

Kek - that's a meme

Also
>revolvers are obsolete

>>34068461
>Oh god let's not go there

Where do you think you are?
Shitskins, let alone openly known shitskins shouldn't be here.

Besides do you really want a snackbar to learn how to kill people effectively?

>>34067984
>What if it hits something tough like and excessively thick bone or tumor
>tumor
Last I checked, the average mugger does not have stage 4 cancer armor. And if it goes through bone, it will definitely go through a tumor.

File: mah nigga.gif (483KB, 141x141px) Image search: [Google]

483KB, 141x141px

>>34067783
MAH NIGGA
A
H

N
I
G
G
A
H

>>34068098
Oh I'm here alright. I'm just letting someone else spread the Word of Truth for a change. If I'm the only one who fights the tsunami of idiodic sperglore, it looks like I'm the one with the problem. Letting these facts develop this completely without me anywhere near shows people that it's not just a "trolling tripfag".

It's fact, and it's real, and the world of defensive shooting is changing-- for OUR benefit.

>>34068098
What have you done?

File: Kehs9Qb - Imgur.gif (3MB, 300x204px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 300x204px

>>34068534
> Shoot intruder at 1m
> Bullet hits tumor
> Instead of blood, you get a face full of gravy

>>34068530
Where do you think you are? This isn't pol, anyone who is into guns should be here. Also snackbars are already killing people efficiently without 4chan's help.
>>34068534
Okay the tumor thing was a stretch I'll give you that lol.
>>34068569
I started this thread because it just seems like everyone gets tricked into buying the latest and greatest hollow point on the market when ball has been putting people down since guns were guns. I just want peoples to think for themselves not what ammo companies want them to think.
>>34068594
Please no....

>>34068668
Any thoughts on the Lehigh controlled fracturing?

I know it's kinda gimmicky, but it looks nasty in gel.

File: lehigh-defense-9mm-luger-115gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition_2048x2048.jpg (58KB, 1325x1325px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 1325x1325px

>>34068737
Actually I'm very interested in the extreme penetrator line. Bullet doesn't deform or expand and penetrates more than fmj while also creating a bigger wound channel. If it wasn't so costly to train with I would consider putting some in my pistols for sure. If costs go down though I'll give it a try.

>>34069007
> Bullet doesn't deform or expand
> Creates wider wound channel

But how?

>OVERPEN IS A GOOD THING

Holy fuck, what the hell did I just walk into?

>>34069032
Hydraulic pressure?

>>34069398
not gonna happen at handgun velocities

>>34069447
I think thats why the bullet is shaped like it is. To direct liquids outwards. Also not to be a stickler but magnum revolvers are handguns. And they can most certainly do lots of damage.

>>34069463
The conical shape of almost every bullet ever operates on that same principle. These are nothing new.

>>34069447
That's what the FBI states, but the FBI went full retard on their short-form "Return to 9mm" memo. Some of their claims were valid, others were not and simply ended with "we reject x's claims".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

This is a 10mm. Notice the diameter of the holes in the ribs, (skeletomucular tissue), and the heart, (cardiac muscle). While this test certainly isn't scientific, it does demonstrate wounding which is in excess of the surface area potential of the projectile, refuting the "crush damage only" theory posed by the FBI. Also, West Point's findings contradict the FBI. Hydrostatic waves begin the remotely harm tissue at 500ft-lbs with 12" of pen. Almost any service handgun can do that with +P or +P+ at close range. It's not reliable, but it's doable.
https://arxiv.org/abs/0803.3053

>>34069032
I think it has more to do with the shape of the bullet and the wound channel.
>>34069082
Yea well a little more penetration can be a good thing, just ask your mom.
>>34069675
Or you could just not worry about all that info and get a magnum revolver if you want power.

File: IMG_0552.jpg (3MB, 4032x3024px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4032x3024px

Another thing to take note of is the increasingly short barrel lengths people seam to be fascinated with. Reducing accuracy and more importantly, velocity.

>>34067819
This is with a 3.5" barrel, I wonder if my 4.9" barrel will increase or decrease penetration?

>>34072188
It will increase velocity, which will increase penetration.

File: Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 10.14.39.png (237KB, 2298x326px) Image search: [Google]

237KB, 2298x326px

>>34072204
The relationship isn't that simple. Higher velocities sometimes increase the expansion of a projectile, so it expands faster and earlier. So less pen is sometimes an affect (effect? i don't remember the difference). Just look at standard vs +p tests. If velocity where directly proportionate to penetration then +p would pen farther, but it often doesn't.

Perhaps the variation from round to round means that 5 rounds isn't consistent enough but its a pretty noticeable trend.

Note the reduced pen from 124+p

>>34072236
Ooo, you're right, I didn't know you were talking about JHP, I kinda just assumed from the thread we were all on about FMJ.

Dang, it's like the JHP crowd has another thing to worry about!

File: Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 10.23.37.png (325KB, 2300x466px) Image search: [Google]

325KB, 2300x466px

>>34072250
Yeah, very interesting topic actually. I wish someone made defensive fmj rounds like they do jhp. Nickel plated case, sealed primers ect. Because having a very light hammer spring like I do means poor QC gives me at least 1 light strike in every 200 or so. Stuff like that.

But again, I feel that a lot of failed penetration stuff online is where the round got stopped by a bone... I don't think fmj penetrates bone any better. And the example of a .45 penetrating into the kids disgusting pig fat stomach isn't a good example because it could be one of those gay "compact carry 1911s" with a severely reduced barrel length, and .45 is a poor perpetrator to begin with.

>exhibit A
out of a 3.6" barrel

>>34072308
>I wish someone made defensive fmj rounds like they do jhp

not exactly FMJ but look into Buffalo bore's HCFN rounds. theyre hard cast lead rounds designed for animal defense, and have comparable penetration to FMJ.

they're the sort of thing youd want in cartridges that have inferior penetrating hollow points, but adequately penetrating non-JHPs, like 9x18, etc.

>>34072339
neat

>>34071065
>Get a magnum revolver if you want power.
Nigga what? 10mm has .357magnum velocity with a .40 caliber projectile and feeds reliably through a semi auto. And you're shilling the .357.
Don't get me wrong I have a thing for wheelguns but don't shit on the 10mm.

>>34072236
Your effect was felt; you affected them

>>34067917
Bullets leaving body with retained energy is a non factor in handgun bullets. Temporary wound cavities from handguns have resulted in literally 0 deaths through all of recorded history. With rifles that's another thing, they rely heavily on energy transfer to fuck everything up. Handguns rely on physically poking enough holes in the right places.

I was actually just looking up this exact thing today.

Any opinions on SJHP? That's what I eventually settled on.

.357 mag, PPU 158 gr, to be exact

>>34072721
>Bullets leaving body with retained energy is a non factor in handgun bullets

I was wondering about this. Has there ever been a case of someone getting shot after the bullet penetrated the primary target? Is JHP in pistol rounds just CYA for police departments?

>>34072759
>just CYA for police departments?

it's cya for everyone. popular wisdom is that overpenetration happens and thus needs to be mitigated.

I would be worried about it in certain high velocity rounds, though.

>>34072759
>has there ever been a case of someone getting hit by an over penetrating round?

Yes

>>34072759
I was referring to damage to primary target, I've only heard anecdotal evidence (and probably highly biased) from .mil guys in regard to shooting through Mohammed with a 9mm, bullet ricochet and hitting guy to his left/right resulting in
>lol9mm double kill
I'm pretty skeptic of that though.

>>34072856
>>34072824

I got kids. I don't want to strobe effect someone my hallway at night and put a round through my 3-year-olds skull. HST it is, I guess.

I'm coming back with my point about bone penetration. Look at the intended shot placement of a firearm. Basically at the sternum. I wager that an fmj will not penetrate more than a jhp through bone, and even fat bitches don't have 8"+ of fat on their chest. So if you are hitting the intended location on your target, the jhp will do fine. I don't think we should tailor our rounds to poor shot placement. The logic being "under stress you can't aim so your round should be able to penetrate through a fat guys arm, and his entire 89" round stomach".

JHP under performs under the worst of conditions (shooting a fat ass mother fucker through the stomach). But this does not mean we should use FMJ.

File: 357_Magnum.jpg (28KB, 541x364px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 541x364px

>>34072188
Increase the barrel length and you increase velocity therefore increasing penetration. Also nice Beretta's, I keep an Italian 92fs besides my bed. Beautiful guns.
>>34072236
>>34072250
>>34072308
That's right though, increasing the velocity in JHP's does actually decrease penetration. I think TNoutdoors9 or whatever that guys name is did a video on it.
>>34072339
Hell yea, I love buffalo bore. If it's meant to take down a big animal than it'll take a human down.
>>34072516
No no don't get me wrong 10mm is great. It just seems like ammo companies pussy down the round. However the hottest 10mm like a Buffalo Bore round will mimic a lukewarm .357 Magnum. A hot .357 though beats 10mm by a good margin. Still nothing against 10mm it's a great round and you get capacity.
>>34072733
Hollow points in .357 still penetrate better than a FMJ .45 for instance so feel confident in it. I would go for 125 grain though, it has been found to be the sweet spot for 357.
>>34072878
Yea I guess when you have kids you should be more concerned about saftey. Hollow points for you.
>>34072880
There's no one round for everyone. If JHP works for you use it. FMJ works for me so I use it. When people just go by what "we" all use people don't think for themselves. I wanted to inspire thought with this thread is all.

>>34072880
You're aware the 12-18" of penetration thing doesn't correlate at all to 12-18" of actual penetration of a human right?

Are you really so naive that you think you'll be anywhere near as accurate, calm, and effective at shooting an actual person as you are when you're shooting paper on the shooting range?

Also, threats are rarely facing you and giving you an opportunity to get a effect sternum shot, a round has to be able to go through arms and irregular angles to reach vitals.

In the 1986 Miami shootout the fatal, but not incapacitating wound was fired through the perps arm and into his chest, it stopped only an inch short of his heart(which would have been a very quick incapacitation).

Please stop making assumptions or "wagers" about things you don't fully understand.

That being said, I still agree that if a JHP has adequate penetration it's still superior to an FMJ

>>34067887
You'll watch enough ammo test videos and realize it's fucking useless against someone that is wearing any real clothes. JHP get clogged and become FMJ. Lehigh has the right idea.

>>34072937
See >>34072236

>>34072953
Yes I've heard just penetrating skin accounts for like 4" of gel. But if an expanding round is getting 18" on gel that means 14" past skin, and lets say muscle is still 3x as dense as gel (which its not), its still 4.5". Not great, but better than over penetrating in my opinion.

>>34072953
Out of curiosity what kind of round/firearm was the 1" short bullet?

>>34072953
I wagered that an fmj and jhp will not penetrate the sternum any different from eachother, your counter to wager is that "I don't fully understand" ballistics. Which apparently you do. Fucking retard. Are you saying an fmj will penetrate barriers that jhp will not?

>>34072937

(i am the guy with 158 gr 357)

Is 125gr all around best? I was thinking about some Speer gold dots for cc, but when I'm out innawoods i figured i would want something in the 158-180 ballpark. My area is mostly mountain lions, coyotes, and the rare black bear. Thoughts?

File: sigdog.png (113KB, 444x316px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 444x316px

>>34072308
Well, Sig has this shit, which seems to be well reviewed... but....
>sig

File: SIG-FMJ-Ammunition.jpg (285KB, 934x737px) Image search: [Google]

285KB, 934x737px

>>34073085
("this shit" being the image I was supposed to post instead of the hilarious reaction dog)

>>34073006
Except quality hollow points don't you stinky kebab eating faggot.

Gold Dots, HST, Critical Duty, PDX1 all can pass through 4 layers of denim. How many cunts do you see walking around in 4 layers of denim?

Just because you're so cheap you load your carry piece with range ammo doesn't make it a good idea.

File: shit.png (38KB, 578x712px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 578x712px

>>34073108
You know Anon is on the ropes when he pulls out "poorfag".

Aslo, ALL JHP is susceptible to clogging and not expanding. There's nothing magical about a hole in a piece of lead that can cast spells to keep clothing out when it hits it at 1000fps.

You're basically being pic related right now, why don't you calm down and try to see an alternate viewpoint. You might come away better for it.

>>34067769
Makes sense. I use Hydrashoks. Is this a good middle ground?

>>34072937
>A hot 357 beats 10mm by a good margin

That's where you're wrong faggot
>10mm
165 grain gold dot going at 1400 fps = 720 ft ilbs of muzzle energy
This is from a 4.6 inch barrel
>357
125 grain gold dot going at 1700 fps = 800 ft ilbs
BUT THIS IS FROM A 6 INCH BARREL
No one carries a 6 inch revolver
At 3 inches velocity goes down to 1500 fps giving you 624 ft ilbs

10mm has more energy, at a heavier weight bullet, all in a larger caliber.

Not too mention all the advantages of 10mm semi autos vs 357 revolvers including capacity, recoil, mag changes, etc.
Your revolver is fucking obsolete

>>34073131
Assuming the round is going at the correct velocity (i.e. Not from a tiny barrel) show me a SINGLE time where a gold dot or hst has ever clogged.

Also what about critical duty? The denim or cloth CANNOT get inside and clog with the polymer tip.

Either way EVEN IF (not saying that it will happen) but if a hollow point does get clogged it will still perform just as well as the precious precious fmj that you seem to love

>>34073140
The deepest penetrating hollow point in most calibers is usually the hornady XTP

Hydrashoks aren't as good as more modern hollow point in terms of penetration, expansion, or expansion through barriers.

File: 40-cal-hst-2-l.jpg (30KB, 506x350px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 506x350px

>>34073218
>About 679,000 results (0.79 seconds)

>>34073218
>inb4 you're just comparing a 3 inch barrel to a 4.6 inch barrel!

A 3 inch barreled 686 is 8.2 inches long
A glock 20?
8.22 inches

357 and the revolvers chambered in it are fun to take the range and keep in the safe, but in no way do they offer ANY advantage to a reliable 10mm like the Glock 20

>>34067395

Working as a paramedic, talking to trauma doctors, and reading other information I've come to the conclusion that JHP aren't really worth it. I carry 147gr 9mm FMJ and I feel confident that as long as I put the bullets where they need to go (no easy feat under stress) then I'll stop an attacker.

>>34073250
Absolutley zero context

What barrier was it passing through? What barrel length?

>>34073250
Different anon. Doesn't that effectively turn it into FMJ then?

File: bullets1.jpg (30KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 800x600px

>>34073218

>>34073250
Just looked into it

WHEN PENETRATING A HARD COVER BOOK!
I forgot how many people just cover themselves with hardcover books!
We were talking about clothing you mouthbreathing cunt - stop moving the goalposts

File: rekt.png (138KB, 240x426px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 240x426px

>>34073261
From the pic, it looks like... yeah, that's cloth in the hole.

>>34073279
At this point, I think he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

>>34073263
Yep

Also
>>34073275
If you don't post any context over the round, I'm forced to believe you're just posting bullets that went through random hard barriers like you did here
>>34073250


Sorry faggot

File: laughing j wayne.jpg (23KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 400x300px

>>34073279
>show me a SINGLE time where a gold dot or hst has ever clogged.
<shows one>
>THAT DOESNT COUNT YOU MOVED THE GOALPOST REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>34073275
Solid pine board and then into wet pack.

>>34073283
Nope if click on the article you'll see it's through a HARDCOVER BOOK

Not clothing, not 4 layer of denim, but reading material

>>34073301
I mean, you did prove his statement wrong, but it's not terribly useful info within the context of the thread.

>>34073301
The whole thread is about shooting people. You're retarded

>>34073301
Clogged as in clothing or denim.

Not expanding because it went through a hard barrier is IMMATERIEL to our discussion

This is because you defended this claim
>>34073006

This is what I am discussing - not wether hollow points will expand through someone festooned in hard cover books or pine board

You ARE moving the goalpost and you Are STILL a stupid faggot

>>34073304
Thanks anon

Zed is a a shameless dumb cunt.

File: IMG_1363.jpg (47KB, 600x397px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 600x397px

>>34073329
*immaterial

Sry

>>34073312
>prove his statement wrong

Nope - my claims were about expansion through heavy denim, clothing, not hard barriers. Reread that part of the thread and I think the context will be obvious

But thanks for appreciating the irrelevance of his proof

>>34073083
125 gold dots for urban carry - make sure they're loaded by underwood though

For woods carry go with 158 gold dots - they penetrate BIG TIME and still give modest expansion. Make sure you at least have a 3 if not 4 inch barrel with the 158s. They won't expand at substandard velocity

>>34073108
Any hollow point can clog and fail to expand and at that point it just becomes an FMJ anyway. You're also relying on certain barrel lengths to achieve certain velocities. I prefer to carry a single type of round in my guns because I'm not a cumburping faggot such as yourself and I carry guns in different barrel lengths. Also 4 layers of heavy clothing is nothing when winter comes around here,and furthermore not every defensive situation will occur with only denim being between you and someone you need to shoot.

>>34072937
Just get Underwood 10mm, fuck everyone else.

>>34073440
You know muslimbro, I used to think you and Zed were massive faggots, and maybe the same person, but now I'm startin to think you're alright, even though I still think you're the same person

>>34073486
Thanks for the kind words anon although me and Zed are not the same person.

>>34073440
Carrying rounds designed for certain velocity thresholds in barrel lengths they were meant for somehow makes me a cumburping faggot?
4 layers of denim is iwba standard - stricter than the FBIs

Also bonded bullets like gold dots or federal tactical are designed to perform even through barriers - though the type of barrier may affect expansion

>any hollow point can fail
That's true but it would take a lot to cause a quality hollow point to do that. Heavy clothing is no match for bonded bullets, not are certain other barriers like drywall, etc.

>>34073031
iirc it was .38 special.

>>34073522
9mm silvertip actually

>>34073483
This

>>34073546
ah, OK. thanks.

>>34073483
I wish, but I carry a single stack in summer.

>>34073574
It's funny in ballistic gel the same silver tip load regularly penetrates to only 11 inches, 1 inch away from the FBI minimum

>>34073398

You mean the 125 gr underwood bonded JHP and 158 gr JHP? I've heard a lot about underwood recently, I take it they're good then? I like that their website lists the barrel lengths they're tested with.

Currently using a 4 inch barrel S&W686

>>34073598
Yeah they say bonded hp, but it's 100% gold dot.

High quality bullet construction in an excellent load, it's definitely the best load in 357. 4 inches is perfect - pocket guns and gear and tnoutdoors9 did ballistic gel videos where they performed perfectly

>>34068569

So you took off the trip this time, basically.

>>34073398
>>34073618
Underwood also has a 125gr .357 load with XTP bullets that has the same results.

How does XTP compare to Gold Dot?

File: 1490402248509.jpg (19KB, 438x438px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 438x438px

>>34073618

Really appreciate all the input. I'll pick up a couple boxes, thanks!

>>34069007

Kills vampires, too.

>>34073636
Not him but I had same question months back.

Get gold dot xtp is old design and more for penetration gold is a lil more modern.

>>34073636
Not really as good. I'd never say that XTP is a BAD bullet, but gold dots generally have similar penetration, better expansion, better performance through barriers and clothing (though the xtp isn't bad in this regard)
I'd definitley go gold dot

>>34073584
Fucking this.

>>34073781
>>34073584
Stop saying jhp dont penetrate enough when all the examples are shitty rounds or .45. If that shootout 1" short bullet was a gold dot or hornady it would have penetrated at least 25% deeper.

>>34073781
>>34073790
It's a particular load - the 9mm silvertip - that doesn't penetrate. We weren't generalizing about the entire caliber

No reason to get so heated friendo

>>34073819
The hole basis of the thread is that jhp underpens.

>silvertip
>underperforms in gel tests
>underperforms in fucking real shootouts

No shit

Then they show how jhp clogs a lot
>cloged jhp
It is now an fmj and will probably overpen

This thread has only reinforced my trust in jhp

>>34073855
>no shit
I just thought it was funny that it underpenetrated exactly 1 inch in gel - I was the one who btfo'd zed earlier. Believe me we're on the same page

>>34073881
Yeah this thread was a bit interesting on the argument that JHP consistently underpenetrate. But after having seen that all the examples of jhp underpen I can see are from shit manufacturers I'll be ordering more 124gr GDHP.

>>34073108
Allah will guide his bullets, anon.

>>34073257
But a jhp that fails to open up, will then just penetrate deeper since it encounters less resistance. If it does open up, then you'd have a larger wound. Or are you just not going to bother with fear of under penetration?