redpill me on 357 magnum vs 44 magnum vs 45 colt in a le-ver

>>34016169
Using a lever action rifle for home defense is retarded, Cowboy.

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357 is enough to kill anything in the America's. Instead of a lever action rifle. Consider a pistol or at least a mares leg.

>>34016169
In rifle length barrels, they start to approach intermediate rifle caliber energy levels. May be a good compromise for the "muh overpenetration" crowd. There really is no reason to choose it over an AR 15 assuming you can own one where you live.

>>34016169
>getting a lever action
>not 45-70
why even get a lever action?

.357 out of a lever action is mooore than enough for home defense. That extra 10 inches of barrel make them haul ass.

>>34016195
why

>>34016236
how does 357 suddenly become better for home defense because it gets a longer barrel

i understand that it greatly increases the muzzle velocity and ft/lbs of force but how does that translate to being more deadly when the size of the bullet doesn't change

wouldnt that make it worse since the bullet is just going to overpenetrate

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>>34016169
>Tfw no Marlin 1894c in 357

Time to end it lads

>>34016301
iktf fampai

>>34016169
44 mag is more versatile, but only if you reload

>>34016288
why do you think people choose .357 magnum over .38 s&w?

the real question is how does .357 out of a rifle do with bears?

>>34016341
357 hardcasts in some buffalo bore tier load out of a 20 inch barrel would probably kill a black bear but i wouldnt trust it against a grizzly

>>34016288
Nofuns

>>34016288
Energy alone is not a great indicator of lethality, but bullet diameter is a far worse way to judge lethality. Overpenetration is practically a meme on /k/. You really do need adequate penetration if you want to reliably kill something.

>>34016350
i own a gun i just dont understand how more ft/lbs means the bullet is suddenly more deadly

>>34016349
all i've got here is black bear, just been thinking about getting into hunting and i like lever actions(let's not make this a practicality thing... just think they're cool) so figured a .357 might be a good all around rifle

>>34016364
45-70 will kill anything in North America.

You better handload it, though.

>>34016357
as i understand it, the idea of guns is to hurl a chunk of metal into something as fast and hard as you can doing the most damage possible with said chunk of metal.
more ft/lbs means more energy in that bullet gets transfered into the target.
may be way off there, just seems like how it works.

>>34016381
i like the idea of a 45-70 too, but seems like it'd tear small game apart. guess i could get a 12ga for that though.

>>34016227

because 45-70 is like three bucks a shot

>>34016393
looks like anything bigger than .22 is illegal in my state for small game anyway

>>34016288
also more deadly than revolvers because on leverguns there isnt gas escaping in the cylinder gap

>>34016463
tru

>>34016195
Any gun is suitable for home defense, cowboy. 357 rifle, 22lr handgun, shit even a moist nugget can do the job. Nothing is retarded when the robbers aren't expecting the owner to fight back with a gun, so you're retarded.

>>34016227
Pistol caliber levers are cheap to feed and fun to shoot.

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>>34016169
Whichever one you want OP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDx6SIJ7N5I

>>34016169
I think my next gun purchase is going to be a lever gun in .357. It doesn't even need to serve a purpose, I just want one.

>>34016227
Because you can shoot .38 Special for like 15 cents if you handload.

>>34016643
38 special is cringe

>>34016649
Epic.

>>34016657
thanks....:^)

>>34016274
>>34016552
It's better than no gun at all, but trying to clear rooms with a long ass rifle that you can't fire as fast as a semiauto will put you at a distinct disadvantage. Plus you can't mount a light on there (which is a must have for an HD gun) without some clever usage of duct tape. It would work in a pinch but there is a plethora of better options.

>>34016649
>law enforcement has reliably killed many with .38spcl for decades
> its cringe

mememaster detected

it is weak, but that don't mean it wont be able to drop a man.

>>34016649
>muh round needs to be able to kill an elk through a steel plate for me to consider it.

>>34016643
38 special doesn't feed right in lever actions.

>>34016288
>how does 357 suddenly become better for home defense because it gets a longer barrel
357mag gets stupidly faster out of a rifle barrel thanks to maximum powder burn. It goes from pistol caliber to deer hunting caliber.

>>34016169
.357 mag
Pros: Least expensive, readily available, totally adequate for home defense (you'll get better performance from even a shorter barreled carbine than any revolver)
Cons: Only suitable for hunting at shorter ranges, may not put down a big buck/hog without excellent shot placement

.44 mag
Pros: Significantly more powerful and suitable for deer/hogs up 100 yards, modern round with good variety of loadings
Cons: More expensive, but you can reload it repeatedly.

.45 LC
Pros: True cowboy cartridge, can be loaded to match energies of .44 mag and used the same way.
Cons: More expensive still, you will want to reload. Much of the factory ammo available is loaded so as to not break replica cowboy pistols.

>>34016349
Grizzlies really warrant the most powerful round you can handle.

>>34016393
You'd literally blow a squirrel or rabbit to pieces. Even some of the hotter rimfire rounds have a reputation for ruining meat. A 12 gauge would also be major overkill, a .410 actually has some utility with small game.

If you want to hunt small game with a lever gun, get a .22 lever gun. Henrys seem to get a lot of praise in particular, but you have several options and none are very expensive.

>>34016352
you are such a newfag it's a shame
give away all your high-points and kill yourself

or go spend a few years killing things to back up your opinions

>>34020936
>without excellent shot placement
So like the thing you need to do with any caliber for hunting? I think people get way to hung up and POWER. I mean 30-30 has probably taken way more game then most cartridges. While being pretty anemic compared 308. I could see 357 properly loaded working in a carbine out to 100 yards easy. The 44 and 45's biggest determent is their drop more then anything. As they have heavy bullets that in the right loading don't really need to expand.

>>34021064
30-30 is way more powerful than .357 mag, and at 100 yards is better than .44 mag or .45 LC.

Power buys you a larger target area for which you could reasonably expect a fast kill. With pin-point accuracy, a .22 LR can drop anything that it can penetrate the braincase of. A .50 BMG could drop a deer with a gut shot. Basically you don't want to use a cartridge that has lethal target area smaller than you can consistently hit.

>>34016169
If you're going to have a rifle, have a rifle cartridge. Don't go half ass. Get a 7mm-08 or 30-06.

>>34021195
I was just trying to point out that most reasonable calibers can be effective. At the end of the day unless you get a head shot. All you are doing is causing the animal to bleed out.

>>34016227
to shoot 30-30, anon.

>>34016169
>is 357 enough stoppan powah for home defense
yes, unless you're thinking about home defense against someone with level 2 body armor

>>34016288
improved cavitation and penetration

>>34016576
I have this most confused boner right now.

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I can't decide between getting two lever guns, Marlin 1894 and Henry Big Boy Steel
From what I've seen/heard,

Marlin 1894
>Marlin had gone through some shit recently but is back on their feet now
>takes a while to break in, but a good rifle

Henry BB Steel
>very smooth action right out of the box
>very enjoyable shooting experience
>muh loading gate

The no loading gate thing is the only reason I'm not picking up the Henry right away, but since I'm not using it for defense its not really that big of a deal.
Any owners that can tell me which they prefer?

>>34016169
Could magnum power pistol loads be considered somewhat smiler to 5.56? As in the pistol bullets are meant to operate at slower velocities. So when they hit what ever they immediately disintegrate dump all their energy. Or is the velocity not high enough for the fragments to be damaging? I mean a 5.56 has like 1300 flbs, where as a 44 mag(in a rifle) can have over 2000 ftlbs. I would think it would be devastating.

>>34021361
Ask yourself, do you want a levergat with a modern reloading mechanism or one with a reloading method which was considered already outdated in 1866?

>>34016566
.44 mag ain't cheap, neither is .45LC

>>34021361
I own a modern Marlin 1894 and if you replace the awful stock sights it blows the doors off the Henry. The only Henry lever guns you should ever consider are the Long Ranger, which is box fed and comes in .223 and .308, or a .22lr where the tube feed actually makes sense.

>>34021374
S&W 500 Magnum is about equivalent to 5.56 in lethality. .44mag and hot loaded .45LC are a bit below that.

>>34021416
Would you mind posting some pics of it? Is it the normal 1894 or the 'cowboy' variant

>>34021425
Thats not what I'm asking. I'm talking abut pushing bullets that are meant to operate at slower velocities as fast as possible. That way they disintegrate like 5.56 would. You would lose penetration sure but you could get intense wounds. I just don't know if the bullet fragments from a pistol bullet would do much or just stop. I mean a gas checked 44 special hollow point put in a rifle would have like double its intended velocity. It fly apart as soon as it hit its target.

>>34016288
bullets do damage with kinetic energy
kinetic energy is a function of mass and velocity
the same mass at a higher velocity will make badguys get more deader because it has more kinetic energy

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>>34016584
>I think my next gun purchase is going to be a lever gun in .357. It doesn't even need to serve a purpose, I just want one.
They're pretty sick anon. Make sure to get a matching revolver to go with it

>>34021361
I own the Henry. I can't say much about the Marlin 1894 because I haven't shot one. I can speak for the Henrys having amazing actions and great triggers. The loading gate isn't so bad once you get used to it, and it's really not a huge deal if all you're doing is dicking around with it anyways. You get an amazing warranty and if you don't like the Henry you can always sell it and get a Marlin. .357 lever rifles are in high demand.

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Should I buy an original (legit original, not the current Miroku production ones) Winchester 1873, or an Uberti replica?

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I have a .44 mag lever gat, it kicks like a retarded nigger when you try and pull their pants up.

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>>34021453
Standard model.

>>34021361
Have you considered a Winchester 1892 pattern rifle? Browning made some back in the '80s or '90s that are commonly considered to be "the tits".

>>34022265
>it kicks like a retarded nigger when you try and pull their pants up.

i laughed

>>34022271
wat caliber

>>34020612
It feeds fine in my lever action, though I do admit that the action feels much less smooth when I'm plinking with .38

>>34022271
How's the wood on those because the wood furniture on Henry's looks significantly nicer than Marlin.

The wood on those Marlins almost looks like it's plastic. Do they coat it with something?

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>>34022258
also my raifu

>>34022302
i handled one earlier this evening and i was a little turned off too, i think it's just a thick, glossy varnish coat

>>34022286
The shorter OAL means that the carrier or lifter has to shove the cartridges back up the tube slightly as it cycles.

>>34020612
It works perfectly fine in my Henry

>>34022285
.44mag as mentioned earlier.

>>34022302
Henry's wood furniture is pretty nice.

>>34022271
>>34022314
Damn they both look great, this isn't helping me decide.

>>34017294
>long ass rifle
Plenty of short barrel lever guns exist noguns. Plus stuff like marlin Guide gun feels super comfy even with 18.5 inches

>can't fire as fast as semi auto
No YOU can't fire as fast as semi auto.

>light on HD gun
OK Mr operator, I'm sure you're 30 point tactical drills need flashlights, but most HD situations don't.

The biggest concern with any gun in my mind, is over penetration.

>>34016169
>is 357 enough stoppan powah for home defense
This leads me to believe you are under the age of 18

>>34016169
>is .357 enough for home defense
If the dude has no body armor and a knife, a 10/22 with a 25 round mag is enough

>>34016649

you're cringe

>>34016288
.357 uses relatively slow-burning powder, so it gets massive velocities out of long barrels and when fired out of snub it's glorified .38 special.

>>34018143
They weren't drug-powered Mexicans though, just ordinary niggers from Italy etc.

>>34022980
Short of cops cartels and the occasional biker gang how often do home invaders have kevlar. And honestly guy follow up shots to the head hips or dick after their shit gets rocked is not too hard

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>>34016195
Using a firearm for defense is retarded?

>>34022687
While I agree that over-penetration is probably the biggest thing you should be worrying about, I think you're missing one or two things.
>YOU can't fire it as fast as a semi auto
I highly doubt your split times are identical between shooting an AR and a levergun. Then again, I could be wrong. Feel free to post proofs though, that'll shut me up.
>You're mallninja oper8tor trash for wanting a light on your gun
Really depends on the situation. Do you have kids? Roommates? If so I'd say you need a light. If you live alone, you don't. How would having a light on your gun be a detriment to you?

>>34021361
Henry doesn't have the loading gate, but modern Marlin QC is absolute garbage. I'm sure they let some decent rifles out the door (even a broken clock is right twice a day), but definitely don't buy before a close inspection.

>>34022333
It's just a weird finish. Oiling up the wood as well as the metal when you clean the gun helps.

>>34021587
Achtuallhy it's 1/2mass x velocity^2

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>>34016288
more velocity doesn't mean more penetration in flesh, but it does mean it's more likely to go through barrier or body armor. but in flesh it's going to make a larger wound, especially if it's designed to expand

For most purposes, you want a light, fast projectile

>>34025106
One place you don't, and where lever guns shine, is for large animals in dense brush. You want a heavy motherfucker of a bullet to punch through foliage, fur, muscle, and bone before Yogi or Pooh get within mauling range.

>>34025127
Indeed, because heavier projectiles are more stable, that's also why they typically penetrate deeper.

Of course depending on energy, projectile type and the construction of the bullet, the rule that light and fast projectiles expand more (or lose energy faster) is not always true. For instance the tests that tnoutdoors9 made of the .40S&W show the 165gr penetrating deeper than the 180gr, but the opposite has also happened (the average penetration depth of his 9mm 147gr tests is slightly more than the 124gr tests)

Also, 12gauge foster slugs are massive projectiles but they don't have great penetration capabilities because they are made of soft lead and are designed to fragment

I've been thinking about this lately, how much of a difference would there be in ease of loading for a .357 lever action vs a .44/.45 lever action? I figure the slightly large cartridges would be easier to load into the gun just from experience shooting various guns, but how noticeable would the difference be?

>>34020612
You don't know what you're talking about. It will feed fine so long as you aren't using was cutters

>>34016169
>Is a 357 enough for home defense
Congrats, dumbest question on this board today.

>>34022980
This. Nobody likes holes getting punched in them. Doesn't matter if it's .22 or .45

>>34016227
>not 45-70
Why not 7.62x54?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYf7_gqOvs

>>34025127
I also believe that spitzer nosed bullets, which can't be used in a classic lever-gun's tubular magazine tend to get deflected by brush.

>>34025280
This wouldn't be an issue as .357 mag isn't a tiny cartridge.

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Wouldn't a henry be really bad in a SHTF scenario?

Their loading system is pants on head retarded desu

>>34025106
That graph is for small varmints, and I don't know why they included 45-70 govt...

>>34026189
It's still quite a bit smaller in the hand than .44 magnum.

>>34026205
You've never shot rabbits with a .45-70?

>>34017294
A long rifle would be awkward indoors, but many lever guns are carbine length and would not be banging into everything.

>>34026205
no, it's a representation of three rounds in ballistic gelatin, one is a "big slow" round, one is "medium fast" and the third is a 40gr .223 designed for small varmint

>>34022265
Try shouldering it firmly. 44 mag from a rifle should only be noticeable.

>>34026226
Anyone who has would need a background in forensics to determine that it was a rabbit. Also, 45-70 is a bit pricey for blowing up bunnies.

>>34016288
Here's the thing if you put a 357 that has a history of being used in revolvers that has a cylinder that doesn't connect to the barrel thus creats gas to escape before the bullet leaves the barrel and you put it into a gun that doesn't have anywhere for the gas to escape except to oush the bullet out of the way to escape and in a long barrel you will end up with a 357 that lices up to it's full potential.

Basically you got a 357 that is faster and more accurate than it was with a revolver.

>>34016222
A mares leg 44 magnum with a feed gate and wide loop is something I really want

>>34016352
>Energy alone is not a great indicator of lethality
Which is why it features as part of UK gun law. Go back to school

>>34026338
Not even that person. Are you implying that UK gun law has some intelligence/rationality to it? That's hilarious

>>34026201
Actually a henry would be perfect because you can take small pvc pipes and fill it up with ammo and when you need to reload your henry you just quickly pop off the rod and take the pipe and dump all the rounds and just push the rod back in and your ready to go again.

Also henry is literally more reliable and durable than most other lever action guns since there is less shit to go wrong in it then there is with a side loading gate.

Not a shill for henry I'm just saying my opinion.

>>34026201
Not really. I doubt you would ever reload a lever rifle in a situation where "speed of loading" mattered.

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>>34027282
>Also henry is literally more reliable and durable than most other lever action guns since there is less shit to go wrong in it then there is with a side loading gate.

lawl, good one

>>34027282
Fucking loled hard

Thank you for this

>>34024602
>rate of fire
Unless your plan is to just spray rounds at the intruder, my semi auto and lever action times for accurate shooting isn't significantly different. The lever action feels very intuitive, and smooth, I can cycle it and be ready for the next shot very quickly. Btw comparing 3030 lever to 556 semi cos 45-70 slows me down.

>need a light in specific situations.
That's besides the point. Your HD gun should be tailored to your specific needs. Mine is a pump action 14inch barrel Shotgun, with dot sight and loaded with number 4 bucc. I don't want a flashlight, because I live on the lower level very close to the entrance, and I think I can shoot whoever in the back as they break in. But that depends on specific needs. But I don't think a rifle is overall a good HD gun.

But that's not the question. It's simply CAN it be a good HD gun. And the answer is yes.

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should I get the 20 inch henry or the 16.5 inch?
The steel big boy in .357

Jobs would be
>muh first rifle
>plinking/target shooting
>possibly pressed into HD if for some reason can't use shotgun

>>34026338
Bullet shape, weight, composition, type,diameter and velocity at impact are all very important. Energy is just want a neophyte uses.

>>34028520
revolver cartridges don't gain much after 16 inches. So unless you want more capacity I would go for shortest barrel. All you lose is sight radius and capacity with shorter barrels. While gaining handiness. Thats whats neat about 45-70 too, you can get pretty much the maximum performance out of a 16 inch barrel.

>>34028520
the 16.5 inch has a bigger loop and I dont like that

20 inch for me

>>34028520
1892

>>34027282
kys

>>34016169
.357's great out of long barrels

going from 4 inch to 16-18 inch, you can gain up to 600ft/s which is impressive.

>>34016169

>lever action
>home defense

Home defense from what? Apaches?

.357s will have a lot more personal defense round choices for HD.

>>34028725

>not wanting 20$ a scalp

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>>34028725
>Home defense from what? Apaches?
This may shock you but some of us live in less dense, less minority-populated areas. A lever carbine or a pump shotgun is fine for home defense in most places that aren't the ghetto.

>>34028836
This may shock everyone on /k/, but even in dense, minority-populated area you are still more likely to be struck by lightning than be the victim of a home invasion.

>>34028725
skinwalkers

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>>34020968
This. You don't want to wonder if smokey is going down. Better to wonder if there's going to be anything left!

>>34028290
>I don't want a flashlight
>I don't want to have the option to see what I'm shooting a gun at in the dark
Lol ok, that's your prerogative.
>unless you plan on spraying the intruder with bullets
Yeah, I'm not taking my time when I'm less than 10 yards away from someone and I'm looking to put the guy down as fast as possible, and neither does anyone else. I wouldn't magdump the dude but you bet your ass the follow-up shots with a semi auto will be faster than a levergun every time. Add stress to the equation and it's an easy decision. There's very little to argue about that. Doesn't mean you can't use it for HD, it's just not preferable.
A lever action rifle CAN be a HD gun, but any gun can. there's even a greentext about someone using a martini Henry for defending their house floating around here. You can press a gun into that role, but it won't always be "good" at that role compared to other options. In this case Semiauto rifles and shotguns. There's better options out there that make using grandpappy's 30-30 for home defence look retarded.

>>34024602
putting a light on your gun demands that you ignore basic safety rules to actually use it

>>34028851
HAHAHAHA

>>34028851
that's such horseshit. You can't possibly be serious

>>34016169
They're all enough for HD, especially out of a carbine. .45 Colt is going to have the best balance between power/muzzle blast, especially in that platform, .357 is going to be far more common...

>>34028675
Is there anywhere that sells a smaller loop? Henry's site has a big loop to add to any rifle but not a standard loop.

>>34028926
Using your gun in the dark without being able to see your target demands that you ignore safety rules to use it

>>34029000
that's why you get a headlamp, dingus

>>34028963
most people who break in do it when your not there... and case your place. Break ins with someone being there generally doesn't happen often. granted a lot of you don't leave your house but

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>>34022235
What's a good .357 lever gun to pair with a .357 revolver?

Let's say the revolver is a Manurhin.

>>34029086
>Let's say the revolver is a Manurhin.
A Miroku 1892, with all the PC lawyer parts swapped out

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>>34029074
>granted a lot of you don't leave your house but

>>34020968
Would a ar10 be enough gun for a grizzly?

>>34029023
I mean, that's one way to do it... I guess?

>>34028520
carbine

16 inch is optimum length for a .357, anything past that suffers from diminishing returns.

>>34029023
>>34029333
The only argument I see against head lamps and like a pouch of ammo over a light on the gun and a side saddle is that at 3am are you gunna find and put on all that shit?

>>34028851
I can't buy a big enough gun to fend off lightning strikes and disperse thunderstorms.
>inb4 .45ACP shitposts

>>34029283
If you're carrying a nine pound gun just go for a semi auto shotgun with bearfucker slugs. .308 honestly isn't enough for grizzlies sometimes.

>>34016288
Noguns detected

>>34029458
Holy shit no kidding?
What sorta slugs fuck bears real good

>>34024602
>giving out your position to the robber because of a stupid light
dumbass

>>34026308
Honestly, just dropping the boolets into the receiver is easier at that point.

>>34028990
henry's website.

It's the same receiver as the rifle configuration.

>>34029990
>>34028990
whoops, meant calling, not online.

>>34028963
the odds are funny when you actually get down to it, but thems the breaks

>>34030017
>honestly believing more people get struck by lightning than there are homes broken into every year

>>34021009
"Major overkill" may be an exaggeration. I've shot squirrel with a 12 guage and small game loads. It can damage some meat, but good shot placement is key. I've never shot rabbit though.

>>34030073
>confusing burglary with home invasion

fuck there are some thick people on /k/ tonight

>>34029086
Any .357 that isn't shit. But a Manurhin would probably be a best.

>>34022641
Here's the thing: all things considered, Henrys are by far the easiest to find. So there's that, too.
>>34025050
Marlin was garbage for a few years because their tooling wore out and Freedom didn't know how to keep it running when they bought it. They've got new tooling now so they're good again.
>>34026201
>Henry bad in an SHTF scenario
SHTF doesn't mean gunfights all the time, anon...


>>34028520
I have a 20" and it's pretty handy, but the carbine would be even better. You can also get the larger or smaller loops on their sight depending on which you prefer and assuming you wanna drop a hunnit dorras on one.

>>34031679
>You can also get the larger or smaller loops on their sight

where at

i like the 16.5 inch but i hate that big loop

>>34031691
My bad, turns out you can only get the large loops

>>34031761
this is how the henry jews get you to buy the 20 inch model

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>>34026170
Why not indeed.

As to the OP, if you want to use a lever gun 357 is your best bet. It's cheaper to practice with, almost no recoil in a rifle, you can fit more in the magazine and it has the best variety of defensive loads.

>>34031774
for real though

>>34026640
Only bits of it - probably sneaked in there under the noses of the politicians while they weren't looking.

I'm referring to two instances I'm aware of: the muzzle energy of air weapons before they become FAC and the energy required to legally hunt deer (although I'll admit that this also has a calibre requirement as well).

But don't worry. To make sure threre is the expected illogicality, the legal calibre required to shoot the same deer changes if you hunt it across the border between England and Scotland.

>Damn, Carruthers. That roe buck heading south has just crossed the border. Here, take this .243 and hand me my .270, will you?

>>34028638
You're just trying to look clever - I'd stop now.

Weight and velocity comprise the energy. The rest do two things:
1. They affect the transfer of that energy to the target
2. They affect the amount of tissue damage (which is also affected by 1, above).

You can choose whatever bullet you like; composition, calibre, type, weight and if you then throw it at your intended quarry you won't get very far.

I don't get people who buy cowboy guns but don't want to shoot cowboy ammo out of them.

>waah but it's expensive
if you want cheap get a fucking hipoint you tribune of the plebs

>>34016222
.357 might be enough for anything if you're a really, really good shot every time. Otherwise you really need a rifle cartridge to get adequate penetration on larger stuff.

>>34032628
So you are saying that bullets made of only copper act just like a pure lead bullet? Good to know I will tell the military a pure lead wad cutter bullet is just as good as a hardened steel one for armor penetration. I cant wait to use a 22 to hunt bear as the only thing that matters is energy. Wow so instead of getting a 45-70 going at trapdoor speeds. I can use a .243. THANKS ANON YOU ARE SMART