Would some form of PPSH be useful today?

Because the soviets saw the utility of a common weapon to replace SMGs and Rifles, the AK.
>Would it be practical to have in 2017 a gun similar to PPSH-41? If no, why not?
Not in the slightest. The Russians have in recent years moved back to the SMG somewhat, but now they have the Bizon and Vityaz in its place. People focus on the drum, but in truth they were mostly used with stick mags and the drums were never particularly reliable. In US hands one example saw use in Fallujah, but that had merit because the only alternative was a full length M16, which is a bit long for tight urban fighting.

>>33927572
Thank you.

Would some modern upgraded form of PPSH be useful in urban combat today or would it be foolish? Could you elaborate on drum part, why is it not reliable? From what I have been able to read, Soviet soldiers loved PPSH-41 in WW2.

>>33927572
wow really use at fallujah? thats very interesting, i assume it was picked up off of some insurgent and used? whats the US mils attitude to use/adoption of non-standard issue weapons? i would of imagined theyd be firmly against it

>>33927591
My understanding was that the Soviets adopted wehrmacht equipment when and where they could, including the MP40's and their variants. Can you cite some info on the Soviet reception of the PPSH? I'd be really interested to read it.

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>>33927562
In this day and age the premise still works (pic related) but short barreled rifles are doing the job better and better these days

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>>33927572
>In US hands one example saw use in Fallujah

No you fucking dense idiot. Pic related as at a weapons familiarization shoot, not combat.

>>33927591
No you slavaboo. The PPsh is inferior to modern submacineguns. It could discharge if dropped, had too high of a rate of fire and fired a piss poor round.

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>>33927591
>Would some modern upgraded form of PPSH be useful in urban combat today
something like a high capacity, small and fast bullet with great potential to defeat bodyarmor?
look no further then the p90, mp7 or even the CBJ MS
pic unrelated

>>33927591

Educated guess as main reason why the Soviet 72-round drum magazine used with PPSh-41 was not reliable was their (low) manufacturing quality plus likely that it inherently did not function as reliably with "bottleneck" 7.62 x 25 ammo.

This mainly due to fact that the Soviet 72-round PPSh-41 drum mag was a direct copy of Finnish 71-round drum mag designed by Y. Koskinen for 9 mm x 19 caliber Suomi m/31 SMG with slight changes to adapt it for longer 7.62 x 25 cartridges.

The Finns had only single (high quality) manufacturer the 71-round drum mags (Tikkakoski, who was also the sole Finnish manufacturer for Suomi m/31 SMG) and in their use the magazine type gained excellent reputation for its reliability.

The limited shooting experience that I have with PPSh-41 (single weapon, few hundred rounds) supports the Soviet observations - (banana-shaped) 35-round box magazines worked more reliably then 72-round drums, which produced lot of failures to feed.

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>>33927639
No need to get in a misinformed tizzy, bud. But there was more than one PPsH in Iraq and the Fallujah story isn't even obscure.

>>33927591
Drum magazines from that era weren't reliable, and this wasn't limited to the PPSh either. The drum mags for the Thompson SMG had reliability issues as well. A PPSh would be useful in urban combat, as any submachine gun would; however there are much more modern guns that do the same thing and weight a whole lot less.

>>33927657
>implying that was issued to that marine for combat and he didn't just take it to prevent some Iraqi form picking it up and shooting marines with it

You can even make out the barrel of an M16 slung between his legs and the buttstock to his right.

>>33927663
>You can even make out the barrel of an M16 slung between his legs and the buttstock to his right.
No shit, this isn't Call of Duty. He was authorized to use the captured weapon until he ran out of ammo, but he wasn't just going to leave his issued weapon on the ground in its place.

>>33927647

Not him and I'm definitely not slavboo by any standard, but care to elaborate?

Most SMGs firing from open bolt can (in theory) discharge if dropped (just) the wrong way, but PPsh-41 does have a safety (in bolt handle), hence I am having a problem to understand what feature makes it more hazardous than other submachineguns of World War 2 in general. Also - actually 7.62 x 25 was probably one of the very best SMG-cartridges of World War 2 with its flat trajectory and excellent penetration - both of them characteristics in which 9 x 19 and .45 ACP were somewhat lacking.

>>33927562
Change of Doctrine
Basically prior, during and for a little while after WW2, the Soviet army was a mish-mash of dozens of calibres, guns and random shit they had bought, got donated, stole and found.
So the great un-fucking of this is that you've got infantry weapons like the-
>AK47 and RPK using one ammo and often one type of magazine
>Larger MG's and long range Rifles using another ammo
>Pistols use this ammo
And so on

No one needs the SMG because tactically the AK47 is doing the job just fine, its got a decent engagement range out to about 300m, more powerful round and when doctrine is to advance, pouring fire on the enemy or stand off defensively at long range- it does just fine.
Later on when they hit the limits of the AK platform and its disadvantages, other SMG's came back into limited, specialist use

Honestly like someone said above, the p90 is the modern equivalent. I own both a semi kp31 and ppsh41. Drums are a lot more clumsy than box mags, you have to pay so much more attention to orientation and the hand shape you need to hold the latch and drop a mag negates the capacity compared to an AR mags speed. The suomi more than the ppsh but they're big and heavy for what they do. An AR is lighter, more ergonomic in literally every metric, and has better ballistics. I figure in full auto, a ppsh would be controllable since single shot has the recoil of a 22, but that has limited utility and 3 rd burst, even just semi is fine imo as an armchair kommando.

>>33927562
>heavy for the cartridge
>shit tier magazines(drum mags were unreliable and box mags were shoddily manufactured)
>ungodly ammo consumption

AK was initially meant to replace PPSh, it just happened that Soviets managed to get their stamping techniques on the level on which SKS was simply dropped - it was too expensive and the only advantage it had over AK was like 2 inches of barrel.

As for the "would similar gun be useful nowadays". Let's think of what it offers - huge RoF, firing relatively fast, if light pistol cartridge. PDW?
>>33927610
To be honest if the choice was between MP40 and PPSh, I'd probably pick PPSh. While the box magazine wasn't that great, it was double-stack, double-feed one, and MP40 had single feed double stack. Which is shit. It was the reason for Sten being unreliable for instance.

>>33927657

if any of you have ever cleared a building with a fixed stock M16A2, you would pick the PPSH instead, even if it was a rusty piece of soviet shit

it is fundamentally fucked to try and swing that big old clunky 20" barrel in mud huts and you got to put the stock over your shoulder to the point where you aren't even aiming down the sights in tight quarters, not that you need to in order to hose someone point blank but its not ideal

>>33927562
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zQuWpsYZY

>>33927610
Soviets adopted wehrmacht equipment when and where they could because they lacked SMGs
Literally no soviet touched german trash G43 and germans always picked up SVTs instead

>>33927808
Actually 7.62mm AK as big step back comparing to AK in some regards. PPSh had much greater accuracy of automatic fire and provided better firepower inside 100 meters and firing off-hand. Soviets had countless programs to increase AK automatic fire accuracy but same as PPSh result was achieved only with AK-74.

Just needs mlok