The 9mm Meme

its not, its pretty damn good
BUT
it dose not have secret powers like a certain other type of caliber, ima spill the beans and blow the lid off a huge secret.
>.22lr is the best round in the world

The real answer to this question would belong on /pol/.

>>33900372
the 9mm vs .45 fight goes back decades
>ww2-vietnam era GIs swear by their 1911s
>get pissed when they are phased out for 9mm berettas
>at that time, cops had started switching from service revolvers to automatics
>the miami shootout fueled the debate
>the .40 is born

9mm has come a long way, but for a while it was pretty weak, like most pistol rounds. Its biggest advantage was it had capacity

>>33900372
honestly i would choose the .45 as a self defense round. for one it's a hell of a fun shooting it compared to a 9mm. for second the 9mm foll metal jacket will easily over-penetrate your target and hit someone you don't want.

>>33900447
it's not just the power, but the transfer of energy. .45 acp on average will transfer more energy to the target than a 9mm para/luger.

that said it's easier to double tap with a 9mm which should be as good as a single round from a .45

lethality of a single round is based on statistics not as significant as the total number of rounds fired. that's an other consideration.

then there is the price of ammunition. here in europe .45 can be expensive as hell.

>>33900542
>it's not just the power, but the transfer of energy. .45 acp on average will transfer more energy to the target than a 9mm para/luger.

energy transfer doesn't matter in handguns until you get to 10mm+

>>33900542
And a .357 will transfer all of it's energy into a level 3a vest.

>>33900451
>Over-pentration
Woah, there actually is a rational argument for .45 ACP.

You learn something new every day.

>>33900372
k hates anything popular

>>33900542
Energy transfer doesn't mean shit. It is a long debunked myth. The only thing that matters is tissue damage. No normal pistol round is moving fast enough to reliably fragment or yaw, and still penetrate enough flesh to be effective. The more holes you put deep enough into something, the better. The only argument for a larger caliber (when shooting at bi-peds) is a larger hole, but most people would argue that its better to put twice as many holes in something than half as many slightly larger holes.

>>33900556
>.45
>less than 10mm

You're retarded

>>33904447
Tissue damage means jack shit without hitting the heart or central nervous system such as spine or brain stain.
Dumping rounds into a torso is literally gambling with your life hoping you can miss fast enough to hit something important.

>>33904759
Isn't it weird how humans breathe through gills?
Or how there are no blood vessels leading to the heart and all the blood in our body just teleports around.

>>33904829
Bleeding someone out absolutely does not incapacitate quickly enough, bleeding takes time which in a self defense situation is the one commodity you do not have.

>>33904759
Everything you said is correct. I don't understand your point.

>>33904759
Hips and shoulders m8.
Yes it's still a gamble, but it's also a consideration when "shooting to stop".

>>33904908
The point is that tissue damage is as nearly inconsequential as energy and speed when it comes to handgun rounds.
Yes a hollow point improves odds, not because it carves crazy looking holes but because it means that what would have been a non incapacitating shot with a FMJ might hit the spinal column if it's an expanding hollow point.
So in handguns it boils down to two factors, shot placement and penetration.
You have to have the shot placement to hit vitals, and you need the penetration to get the bullet through the body and into those vitals, shit like jhp expansion and how it tears flesh is marginally important at best.

>>33900372

You're taking the meme too seriously, it is a useful round, we just like to poke fun at it.

>>33904447
>.45
>less than 10mm
>You're retarded

Are you serious?

http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

http://www.ballistics101.com/10mm.php

>>33905031
Okay fuckwit, .45 is obviously a more powerful caliber than 10mm. 10mm is 0.393701 inches which is obviously less than .45.

>>33905006
Again. You are correct. You need proper shot placement to make sure that the tissues damaged will cause incapacitation. I still don't understand your point. Are you disagreeing with my initial assertation or not?

>>33905103
I'm really not sure at this point.
Haven't slept well lately so god only knows what I'm rambling about, carry on then.

>>33905090

You probably think .65 caliber muskets are more powerful than .308 chambered rifles, don't you Squidward?

>>33900372
all commercially popular handgun calibers perform similarly in fbi ballistic tests. pick what's comfortable for you to shoot and what you can afford

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>>33904447

>.45
>less than 10mm

>You're retarded

Wait, what? 2/10, got me to reply.

>>33900372
9mm wont push clean through my text books like .45 acp will. Speed dont mean without some weight behind.(unless your going really fucking fast).

>>33905487
or you have an extremely high sectional density

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>>33900402
elaborate on the secret now that there are damn beans on my tile floor

>>33905494
Thats true.

>>33905501
it can kill elephants with about as much recoil as a tater chip dick.

>>33905501
you see, the 22 bounces around inside your body, hitting multiple vital organs

>>33905031
>>33905408
Life isn't a video game. Cartridges don't have magical "power" values. It can be assumed that he was talking about muzzle energy, which is also retarded. Energy transfer is literally a meme, with no basis in reality. There definitely isn't some magical dividing line where energy happens to matter, that happens to fall exactly at 10mm.

.45 makes a bigger hole. All other things being equal, in handgun calibers, that's all that matters.

https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk?t=620

Medical & terminal ballistics specialists both agree that you're wrong.

>>33905683
directed at >>33905661

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>>33905661

>I don't know shit about ballistics, the post

>>33905683
>>33905692
Did we watch the same video?

>10:40: The crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue

Your own source contradicts you.

Energy, and energy transfer mean jack shit. The only thing that matters with handgun rounds is what the bullet puts a hole through.

>>33900447
>the .40 is born
10mm Auto.
.40 S&W is later development, caused by limp-wristed faggots and women in FBI.

10mm is still much weaker than .357 AND it's fired from automatics, so it's not going to recoil as hard, but there were people in the FBI who complained about it. I have a feeling that human resources in the agency has other priorities than "doing their job well.

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>>33905661
>>33906069

>.45 makes a bigger hole. All other things being equal, in handgun calibers, that's all that matters.

Have you looked at performance results for modern JHP? The differences in expansion between 45 and 9 are within 2 tenths of an inch; those are angels dancing on pinheads anon.

So yes, shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen. All other things being equal, lower recoil and higher capacity provide a more meaningful advantage, for defense purposes.

>t. I carry both

>>33900372
It's a joke you double nigger.

>>33905494
They make 230 grain 10mm Auto.

>>33906106
.357 and 10mm are about on par as far as energy numbers in commercial cartridge types, but the 10mm has the slight advantage of heavier bullets (200gr vs 180gr are the heaviest by major ammo manufacturers, but the 10mm is also wider so it has lower sec-dens). If you want to duplicate common loads of .357 such as the tried-and-true #1 one-shot stopper 125-grain, the .357 SIG in 125gr works just as well from a 4.5" semi-auto as the 125gr .357 from a 4" revolver. When you get to extra-long dongle-barrels with a properly loaded .357 you can outdo 10mm Auto, though.

9x19 is not .357, and it never will be, so tactifags need to stop trying to make it be .357.

>>33906106
>10mm is still much weaker than .357
This is objectively false
When loaded to the maximum pressures within SAAMI spec for the cartridges the 10mm frequently beats the 357 in energy.
The 10mm max pressure is 37,500psi
The 357 max pressure is 35,000psi
Off the shelf 10mm is available that pushes 650 foot pounds (Winchester Silvertip)
Factory 357 loads rarely break 600.

>>33906304
damn, so this chart is saying...carry .40

>>33906437
.357 Mag is pretty comparable to 10mm in performance, but .357 is easier to shoot and also there are more platforms available for it with longer barrel lengths, up to and including rifles.

.357 out of a longer barrel > 10mm

>>33906443
Keep in mind that particular hollow point design could have been built to function at it's best in the 40 s&w, so basically it shows that that particular bullet works best in 40, but a different design may work best in the 45 or 9, or even 357

>>33900556
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf

TL:DR multiple studies indicate that even handgun rounds cause at least minor neurological damage some of the time. and thats ignoring other things like baroreflex.

>>33906455
Nothing stopping you from having a long barreled 10mm, that's also comparing available guns and not the cartridge and it's performance itself.
The statement was also about energy and not what's commonly available at Wal Mart.
Thus my objection still stands, anon was incorrect about 10mm being "far weaker" than 357 mag.

>>33906469
This was something I had wondered about and I'm glad it was studied by somebody.
I had suspected that the neurological damage is more of a gradual increase in probably and severity than a flat out energy threshold.

>>33906455
Interesting. Can you hunt game with a .357 rifle?

>>33906443
The chart is showing you that all modern JHPs perform nearly identically (for practical purposes).

If you want to impress your friends with snaps of your amazing ballistic gel performance, go right ahead with the .40. For a defensive carry pistol, the ergonomics of the firearm (grip fit/natural point of aim, size, capacity) and the logistics concerns (price per round/availability of ammo/gunsmith support) should be the deciding factors, not ballistic performance.

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>>33906304
Top of the line 9mm would be barnes TAC-XPD with ~.70 expansion and ~12" of pen but sometimes coming in under that for both values. Top of the line .45 OTOH would typically be Winchester rangers coming in at 1" and ~12-13". Thats just under 50% wider. Not to even get into the whole decades worth of anecdotal reports indicating .45 does better after hitting bone thing

semi relevant pic.

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>>33906506
>tfw my USP 45 is loaded with Ranger T's

>>33906491
If this sort of thing interests you id look into baroreflex too. I personally think it's extremely relevant to the whole "sometimes people get shot and just hit the deck" thing but somehow gets ignored. long story short your body has stretch sensitive mechanoreceptors in your thoracic vessels, carotid sinus, and some other spots that are meant to warn your body if your blood pressure gets too high. in response they drop your BP within tenths of a second, sometimes so drastically it can cause temporary unconsciousness. Totes no way a round passing near one could cause that though amirite?

>>33906547
>in response they drop your BP within tenths of a second, sometimes so drastically it can cause temporary unconsciousness. Totes no way a round passing near one could cause that though amirite?
Unless there is scientific evidence of that occurring from people being shot, it's irrelevant.

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>>33906506
Really reaching with that skewed analysis. Can't see the forest for the trees, anon.

You're talking 3 tenths of an inch larger. Yes, its larger but to what effect? Statistically speaking, is that 3 tenths of an inch going to be the difference maker in a CNS hit?

Maybe. Maybe it is. But that's a dice roll, and totally outside the shooter's control. Strategic wisdom suggests you maximize the affects that you can control. Lower recoil, faster follow up shots, and higher capacity are controllable advantages; 'what if's' and 'maybes' are not.

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>>33906547
Wow, that is VERY interesting and makes more sense than any other theory I've seen.
Thanks for the tip.

>>33906506
>>33906542
To be fair, Ranger Ts aren't a good model for comparison because their expansion is not a traditional jhp. They make little wing talons instead of merely expanding general radius

>>33906361
>They make 230 grain 10mm Auto.
They also make a 45super/450smc, which still has less recoil than 10mm auto.

>>33906495
Varies by state but want to keep it within 100m or so depending on ammo

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>>33905661

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GUYS! guys.. guys.. let's meet in the middle and just all carry .357sig....

http://www.ballistics101.com/357_sig.php

>>33900447
>the 9mm vs .45 fight goes back decades

36 Vs 44 newfag

We are in 1850

.36 = .380 roundball (9.652mm)
.44 - .452 rooundball
I need to be able to shoot a horse you navy queer.

I want flatter trajectory.

And so it began

>>33904829
It can take roughly from 2 -5 minutes to bleed out from an arterial hemorrhage. That's arterial, so damaged veins would take even longer. Even if you hit the chest cavity and puncture a lung... it's not an instant show stopper. It can still take several minutes for a hemo/pneumothorax to develop, which will put pressure on the heart and lungs and eventually cause then to stop working.

>Tldr or too retarded ?
Aim for the head, heart, balls. If you can't aim, shoot center mass repeatedly til they fall

t. Combat medic

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People who shit on 9mm usually do so sarcastically, at least on /k/

9 developed a poor reputation with law enforcement, etc. because 9mm old school hollow points would either fail to expand or underpenetrate. This led to the popularity of cartridges like 40 and 45 - because the hollow points of the day did not have these problems, as well as +p and +p+ 9mm loads, which actually did quite well - like the federal hi shok bple. 20 years ago 9mm performed similar to how 380 does today - not well, especially standard pressure 147

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>>33908900
exactly what I did.

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>>33909018
mfw i made the original of that picture

>>33906455
How does .357 recoil compare to 10mm?

>>33909072
i wish i could tell you but i never got my hand on a 10mm. but the .357 actually had a harsher recoil than the .44 when i tried them simply because of the guns weight. every ounce matters.

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>>33906106
the 10mm already existed by then, it was made in 1983 and the Miami shootout wasnt until '86

one of the agents suggested a 10mm he owned (I think the delta elite) afterwards when they were looking for a new gun. The 10mm was "too powerful" for them so the necked down the cartridge and the .40 was born