When Should Lethal Force be Authorized

imo lethal force should never be used unless its clear that a large portion of the crowd is carrying weapons. if you have one or two guys throwing molotovs/bricks, shooting at the entire crowd with lethal ammunition is just asking for public outrage. violence begets violence in these situations, opening fire on a crowd of civilians has never been a good idea in the history of mankind.

>>33822864
How do you get cops to stand in a line if you're not going to do shit when they get set on fire?

I think day 2 would see a lot of no shows...

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>>33822833
Legally, if you have a large mob of violent people approaching you, and you are legitimately in fear for your life (i.e. the threat is IMMINENT) lethal force is perfectly acceptable when

(1) outnumbered
(2) facing armed opponents
(3) facing opponents against whom there is significant disparity of force

the difficulty is that these mobs often use the tactics of insurgents, striking out from behind human shields.

As I see it, riot police are completely failing at their jobs. Their jobs once molotovs start flying and stabbings start occurring is to kick the heads in of anyone who is unlawfully participating in an illegal violent gathering.

In short, anyone who remains after the orders to disperse are given should have their collarbones broken, anyone caught with a molotov/ied/weapon be beaten into submission and hauled off and charged as a terrorist to be kept in a holding cell indefinitely.

The problem is riot police are so afraid of the "muh police brutality" meme that they are forgetting their jobs as police - to use physical violence one level above whatever the criminals/terrorists/insurgents themselves are using, and to use their position of authority to protect and allow those citizens who are LAWFULLY exercising the right to protest.

None of that means allowing cities to burn and terrorists to act with impunity.

If it ever happens in my neck of the woods I WILL go Texas Tower Sniper on the terrorists. After a few of their leaders come down with a case of shot in the face I imagine the rest will remember they have pressing business elsewhere.

>>33822930
I wonder what the SOPs are for the Frog riot police. It was a total shit show in Baltimore when the chimps got "room to destroy" by order of the mayor. They weren't setting cops on fire though...

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>>33822864
>if you have one or two guys throwing molotovs/bricks, shooting at the entire crowd with lethal ammunition is just asking for public outrage.
Do what the Israelies do, Identify the men using makeshift throwable weapons and use a 10/22 to incapacitate them with proper shot placement

Give them the treatment they would get in their beloved socialist countries.

Autocannon, live ammunition, main battle tanks, snatch squads and torture of anyone captured. Intern families and charge them for the bullets used to kill their loved ones. Play them off against each other, turn children against parents and brothers against sisters. Call their friends late at night as you hook them up to the national grid, then put them on speaker phone. Anyone charged with, or having associates/family connections to those who have, rioting to be banned from all employment and having children of their own.

Tip of the iceberg compared to what their idols did to people they disagreed with.

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>>33822988

>>33822987
Tell me that's a diaper taped to that stock as a cheek riser.

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>>33822930
>In short, anyone who remains after the orders to disperse are given should have their collarbones broken, anyone caught with a molotov/ied/weapon be beaten into submission and hauled off and charged as a terrorist to be kept in a holding cell indefinitely.
>The problem is riot police are so afraid of the "muh police brutality" meme that they are forgetting their jobs as police - to use physical violence one level above whatever the criminals/terrorists/insurgents themselves are using, and to use their position of authority to protect and allow those citizens who are LAWFULLY exercising the right to protest.
These. One major reason why some police forces hold the record for "Human Rights Violation" by those hippy organization is because they're doing their job as needed. I won't deny that there will be some scum in the police but that isn't an excuse to not do your job properly

>>33822930
The problem with that approach is that public safety is best served by getting the riot to disperse as quickly as possible with a minimum of collateral damage. Using violence can just escalate the situation instead of resolving it. It's also really hard to tell the difference between a rioter and protestor or civilian in a crowd. Sometimes there are assholes with guns mixed in with protestors and the police can't tell the difference. Using lethal force on the crowd means running the risk of killing innocent citizens. Now during shit like the LA riots where public order completely collapses in a large area the rules are different. But lethal force should still be a last resort measure.

>>33822864
>if you have one or two guys throwing molotovs/bricks, shooting at the entire crowd with lethal ammunition is just asking for public outrage

As far as I'm concerned they're acting as human shields for the molotov throwers. They know what they're doing. If they're not stopping the molotov and brick throwers then they're with them. Fuck them all.

>>33822988
Hitler dubs did some reading or knew some eastern European refugees a few decades back. Knew a few that thought the nazis were merely annoying and joined our army in hopes of revenge against the reds

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>>33822988
Quality Post right here

>>33823053
It's a fucking riot. There's hundreds of people around, they probably couldn't even find the people throwing cocktails if they tried, much less stop them. Shooting through a crowd of angry civilians to get one violent guy with a brick will only result in a whole lot more violent guys with bricks.

>>33822930

>The problem is riot police are so afraid of the "muh police brutality" meme that they are forgetting their jobs as police
The problem is not with the police, but with the politicians giving directives.

>>33823122
Except it won't, really.

What tends to happen is that rioters get shot, government panics and then swings the other way. Then, as they've lost control, people feel far more confident in acting knowing that the police and military are already starting internal investigations and the international news cameras are around.

In Belarus, they fire into the crowd at random and anyone left standing is pulled into a truck, then put in prison for years. Practical opposition to the government is zero, with foreign journalists unable to get even a foothold. Same story in much of the world. You get problems when you do what the British did in Northern Ireland or the National Guard in Kent State, when you start saying how sorry you are and showing your weakness. If you kill 15 people one day, kill 150 the next. You aren't going back from that once you head down that road, so commit to it fully and put the fear of God in them.

I would be far more willing to throw rocks and firebombs at police officers who would respond with tear gas than I would those that respond with belts of link. I would have no qualms whatsoever about rioting in the western world, because you have every conceivable advantage. The only thing preventing total collapse of law and order is the fact that most westerners are decent people. If you had such methods elsewhere it would go to ratshit immediately.

>>33822864
>if you have one or two guys throwing molotovs/bricks, shooting at the entire crowd with lethal ammunition is just asking for public outrage.
Especially when those one or two guys are probably undercover cops.

>>33823168
>I would be far more willing to throw rocks and firebombs at police officers who would respond with tear gas than I would those that respond with belts of link.
Yep. If the police start using lethal force on rioters, that's our cue to put down the rocks and pick up the .308s.

>>33823314
Heh yeah funny how often the agent provocateur happens to be leo of some sort. But we are seeing more soros actors (for now) so hit or miss if we really try to grab the instigator

>>33823053
>If they're not stopping the molotov and brick throwers then they're with them.
When the gutter trash pig who murdered Tamir Rice is found tortured and killed execution style, and the police union shrugs and says he got what he deserved, then you can talk about crowds policing their own.

>>33823017
Thats a diaper taped to that stock as a cheek riser

>>33823370
No one on this board would give a fuck if the cops lit up a BLM protest or some leftist rabble.

>>33823481
>tamir

what a loss

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>>33822988
I like you.

>>33822833
I use this little mental scenario to decide.

>Wife is driving my truck to get groceries with my child and doggo.
>Crowd of angry [insert meme] swarms her vehicle.
>They proceed to [action].

If it comes anywhere close to physical harm to my Ford Raptor or family then lethal force is authorized, weapons free.

>>33823799
>thinking there aren't gun-loving leftists with military training

>>33824053
There aren't

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>>33824087
You're wrong. Communists are actually pro-gun by nature, it's only your American SJWs making people believe leftists are all anti-gun.

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>>33824126
Then why are all communist countries disarmed?
And dont give me that "not real communism" bullshit I want a real answer.

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>>33822930

>>33824147
that is the real answer you shmock, just because an answer is given very often it doesn't make it less right.

how about you go on and tell me why they all gave Marxism a new name when they did what they did. I'll tell you, because it wasn't Marxism

Now fuck off, this thread is not to discuss about commies. I just wanted to state that there indeed are pro-gun commies with military training, and i posted that picture as proof.

>>33824126
>>33824170
John Brown Gun club, fuck off.

when do we start calling the fucking NG on these people?
if we can call the guard for shit like ruby ridge, surely we can allocate a couple 5 tons of NG to show up and fuck shit up.

besides, here's what you do;
>roll in humvees with mounted simrounds (or non-projectile blank) M2s
>obviously do this after the police's "fuck off now" order
>making sure to not hit anyone if projectiles, fire over the crowd
>i mean dump half the fucking belt and act really fucking mad
>if non-projectile blanks, fire indiscriminately at the group
>do this x5-8 humvees
>rioters:
>A. fuck off, stragglers go innapaddywagon, problem solved
>B. start attacking with lethal weapons/intent at NG/cops
>if B, break out the live ammo and start shooting motherfuckers
>arrest stragglers
>to prison they go
>problem solved
you could also just use MK19s loaded with crowd control rounds for the non-lethal stage

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>>33824170
"it wasn't real communism guys!!"
Like fucking clockwork.

>>33822916

It's kind of part of the job

>>33824170
Glad we agree that progressive are complete hypocrites and that communism doesn't work and that ever attempt has been a total failure robbing the people of there most basic rights.

>>33822833
In the case of France, it's really simple. Those who threw that molotov cocktails are antifas. Every single antifa is on a government list, they should be easy to find. However there is a catch, antifas are actually controlled opposition, recruited, trained and protected by the police. Many undercover documentaries have shown antifas training in martial arts in police academies.

>>33823884
who dis semen demon?

>>33824325
it can't be hard to find officers aiding and embedding terrorists.
you find those motherfuckers and you noose them.

>>33824236
With occasional exceptions, Communism always found the core of its following among the bourgeoisie and the intelligentsia.

If antifa/bamn were labelled as terrorist organizations could we gun them down when they turn up to these events?

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>>33822988
true that

>>33822916
Discipline, a valued trait in law enforcement

>>33824215
>when do we start calling the fucking NG on these people?
NG should never be called to put down an insurgency. If regular cops can't put it down, then the insurgents have enough popular support to make them the rightful democratic government.

>>33824087
There are. I should know - I am one.

>>33824762
>then the insurgents have enough popular support to make them the rightful democratic government.
what kind of fucking horseshit is that?
at that point all you have to do to revolt is fucking zerg rush cops. by that shit-ass logic, BLM should be the government since the cops can't stop their shitfits worth a damn.
just because they can kill cops doesn't mean they deserve to be the government. that's completely fucking retarded.

>>33822930
>Their jobs once molotovs start flying and stabbings start occurring is to kick the heads in of anyone who is unlawfully participating in an illegal violent gathering.
The job of the police is to take extraordinary personal risks to bring criminals into a courtroom alive. If they're going to respond to threats with lethal force, then we don't need police at all, because anyone can respond to threats with lethal force.

>>33824828
sure, on paper.
but.
you're a riot cop. you're standing in a line with your rifle slung on your chest holding up your shitty lexan riot shield screaming at them to fuck off.
now, you think you're winning - they're backing up. and then molotovs start flying. bricks, some gunshots, all fucking hell breaks loose and you know that your decisions in the next 10 minutes could make you live or make you die.
sure, you know these people need their day in trial and all that honor code shit. but then they start hitting guys next to you - you see them break and fall and panic sets in, and you realize that these people are out for blood and if there's any time to fight back it's right fucking now.

now tell me you wouldn't be extremely tempted to start shooting motherfuckers.

>>33824814
No popular uprising should ever have to defeat the military in order to be successful. They should only need to defeat the civilian government. If a revolutionary movement had to face the military, then the 2A has to covers tanks, missiles, and bombers.

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>>33824814
>The people should be able to violently overthrow the authorities!
>Unless those people disagree with me.

>>33824866
No excuse for not doing their jobs. If cops don't like how it feels to do their jobs, they can quit.

>>33824869
it would be a fuck of a lot easier to win the country if you could defeat the civilian shit, but those in power probably really want to not let you win, so they'd throw the military at you.
logically it doesn't make sense to just say "lol you killed the cops countrys yours"
should they have to? no, a country shouldn't turn its military on its own people
would the probably have to? i think so.

>>33824875
>even if those people disagree with me

>>33822864
Human shields discard their right to live by cooperating with violent cowards.

There's 7 billion people on Earth. We're not gonna miss a few antifa.

>>33824894
>every officer is robocop
I'm not saying they shouldn't be investigated and tried for shooting people but don't lie to me and say it wouldn't happen and nobody would really care other than antifa

>>33823122
Guess you'll have to kill them all. Oh well.

>>33824912
Fortunately there are plenty of people in the military who would disobey if ordered to oppose American patriots. I was mentally prepared to instantly frag anyone who ever ordered me to engage US civilians. I would also have killed my squadron's pilots if they ever did.

>>33822833
if protestors are a threat to other people, or peoples property, then lethal force is acceptable.

>>33824974
of course there would, it's not an ironclad arab spring military, but there would still be enough loyalists/people not wanting to be executed for treason - or rather, enough force-multiplying shit for it to be a real pain to get around them.

>>33823370
>>mobs using lethal force against officers and anyone they disagree with
>>officers respond in kind
>>better up the ante by sniping at them

plz kys. For the good of the country.

this anon has it >>33824291

>>33824828
The Police are there to uphold the public order, serve, and protect. Criminals employing lethal force forfeit their right to a day in court.
You want a day in court? Ok Dakwan hands behind your back and come quietly.
You want to start throwing bricks and molotovs? You are being put down before you kill someone.

This is why antifa pisses me the fuck off. Knives, glass bottles, 6 on 1 beat downs - all of these justify the use of deadly force. But antifa has the gall to act SURPRISED and OFFENDED when people fight back.
When in point of fact, the police should be beating the everloving shit out of them for their thuggery.

>>33824875
Antifa =\= the people.
At all. If you think you represent anyone but your very tiny segment of society, please tell me what you're on, I want to try some.

>>33823053
Then your whore mother is there because she couldnt get on the bus and she gets shot too

The legal basis for use of deadly force is when 'there is a clear and present danger of death or great bodily harm to yourself or another'.

If an angry mob is approaching you, even unarmed, isn't it safe to say you fear for your life or great bodily harm?

>>33825104
it's not hard to avoid a riot while it's in progress nor to see the writing on the wall that one is gonna happen.
realistically, what is the likelihood of someone who is completely and utterly innocent, not aware of risks, and just doing normal shit, at one of these big fucking riots?
I think it's damn near negligible.
however, that's not to say that it wouldn't warrant an investigation, but still

>>33824170
No true Scotsman answers aren't answers kiddo.

Try again. We will wait, don't humiliate yourself this time. It gets kinda cringy

>>33824346

Well obviously. Who else but people who have never worked a day in their lives would gush about how manual labor is noble and how the worker class should run everything?
Marx himself was a useless rich kid who killed time sitting in a café and musing about the labor he never knew and the worker he never met.

>>33823037
>MULATTO SCREEEEECH

>>33823037
Why do you people always kill Jon Snow? He was just trying to do what was best for not dying!

>>33823168
This is also why guerrilla war is suddenly impossible. When the French pacified Algeria they killed continuously until resistance stopped, as did all colonial powers. Nowadays, with far superior technology, we somehow can't defeat a bunch of poorly armed savages. It's all because of cuck politicians.

>>33825127
ding ding ding, we have a winner!

Yes, because then you are facing extreme disparity of force - 1 v 50 never ends well for the 1, unless he happens to be related to Usain Bolt or Eric Liddel and can show a very clean pair of heels.

This is why we carry as much gun as we comfortably can, with at least one or two back up magazines.

I admit I'm a bit of a slouch and only carry one extra. If I need 38 shots I hope I account myself well because I'm royally fucked.