Anyone into cartrdge collecting?

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>>33790079
Case head and primer

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>>33790081
Patent drawings

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>>33790085
Patent doc page 1

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>>33790094
Patent doc page 2

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8mm Bergman No. 7

One of four known to exist with this headstamp

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>>33790108
Headstamp

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9mm Walther Rocket

Kinda like a gyrojet, around a dozen were found inside of Karl Walther's desk at the tail end of WWII

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>>33790116

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>>33790118
Rear nozzle, you can see a bit of flashing around the ports

>>33790085
That shape though

>>33790081
THICC

>>33790145
I know, right?

>>33790142
Shape was more about fitting in tube fed rifles, Burton's own theories in the patent info are kinda neato

I didn't know I needed this in my life op, fuck you

please continue

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I suppose I could post this

A training/blank 8mm Lebel with a papier mache bullet.

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>>33790201
OP here, sorry, had to drive to work. Here's some sections I've done.

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>>33790260
A lot of people shit on the frogs, but they made a lot of stuff that was ahead of its time.

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>>33790642
Some 54R Czech silver tip, not the seel core and lead lining in between core and jacket.

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Did Burton build any rifles to go with his cartridge?

On the subject of weird boys, the .58 Schubarth is always interesting. A little egg shaped cartridge.

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>>33790116
>>33790118
>>33790121
>The nazis were on the point of inventing the Bolter

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>>33790645
Ultra rare, one of TWO in existence.

Anyone wanna guess what it is?

>>33790647
I don't know for sure, I think he may have adapted one of his guns to it. Also, only two .50 Burton Rimless cartridges are known to exist, so it may even be he never got around to it.

I used to have a .58 Schubarth, super cool round, there's a great article about it in one of the International Ammunition Association's magazines.

>>33790650
Look up gyrojets and lancejets.

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>>33790663
Another view.

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>>33790668
Some .45 LC that a delivery company used to leave with their packages (Lone Ranger reference)

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>>33790679
H/S

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>>33790686
.30-06 flares

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>>33790691
Some 7.92 for all you 8mm Mauser fags.

>>33790663
>>33790668
.45ACP prototype?

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>>33790079
I collect cartridges and I'm a member of the IAA. I mostly pursue military and handgun cartridges from 1870 onward.

I got a few new items from St Louis this year.

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>>33790718
.40 Short and Weak

>>33790719
Nice! I went to SLICS in 2015 and 2016, but not this past year. I'm into anything weird, especially purpose built, experimental, and factory defect ctgs.

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>>33790079
Several rare versions of swiss ordonnance ammo.

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>>33790751
I'm a sucker for military experimentals and British items in general. .45, .455, 9x19mm, .223, .30-06 and .303 are my largest areas.

>>33790781
There's a Greek guy who works for a Swiss bank who was at SLICS who has a really impressive collection of Swiss military ammo, both older and newer.

Here's some .41 Swiss rimfires, only really rare one is the all-copper shotshell 4th from the left

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>>33790802
My SPIW collection needs more fleshing out, though. I intend to complete this family and finish up Project Salvo I and II.

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>>33790802
http://www.pbase.com/tikkakoski/root&page=all

My dad's galleries of some of his past/present collection. A lot of these were sold at SLICS in 2015.

Here's a .50 Pomeroy

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>>33790781
20mm

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>>33790832

>>33790810
I came across about 750 linked rounds of .50 BMG SALVO #10 a couple years ago, sold most of it, though.


>>33790832
What are the stories on these??

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>>33790841
Leuchtspur
Ziel Markierpatrone
Für grobe Kanonen
THUN
(Tracer Markingcartridge for heavy guns)
7.5mm
Ive used them during my service in training insert guns for the Panzerfaust III. (This one is not from back then)

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>>33790842
Those were part of Colt's Salvo Squeezebore project but to my knowledge it was an independent development from the US Army's Project SALVO.

Incidentally, I have some of those as well.

>>33790822
I've seen that site many times over the years. There's a heck of a lot of obscure military rounds in there I'd love to own like the Rubins and Muratas!

>>33790842
Erhm. I think these were used for anti tank guns. Im not sure if for the conventional paks, the bazooka Rakrohr, or the recoilless. Ive just recieved a whole box of various ammo and ive not yet invested time in finding out.

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>>33790862
7.5x38 Kurzpatrone 47
5.6x48 Eiger
6.45x48 GP 80 which lost to your american bullcrap .223 due to one retard making a less than neutral decision that NATO will be the future so we hadto improve the 5.56 Nato to th GP90 5.6 Swiss.

>>33790952
Do you know anything about 5.6mm GP82? It was the precursor to GP90 but I've never been able to find production year information. The single round I have is in DAG brass but was loaded at Thun.

>>33790967
Only thing ive found on GP82 was on forum.cartridgecollectors.org Use the search bar by entering GP82

>>33790967
Only available headstamp tells me '79

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>>33790886
In 2015 at SLICS we were swarmed while setting up, he probably sold off 75% of his big money collection that time around. .270 Broadway Trust went to Pepper Buruss, the .58 Schubarth sold to someone else, a whole lot of big money getting thrown around.

The .50 Burton rimless fetched around $2400 IIRC.

The Walther Rocket was stolen, though.

>>33790909
That's cool, I love stuff like that.

>>33790967
>>33790990
>>33790996
For the SG 541 I think, 1979-80?

>>33790663
>>33790668
a .45 choad load

>>33791020
see
>>33790751

>>33790638
Is it just me, or does the powder look like dead soldiers in a pit?

>>33790862
Is there a -patrone model name for that subcaliber tracer? I came into one just recently with a T 93 headstamp but I'm not certain how best to record it.

>>33791002
I think I know who ended up with the .58 Schubarth because I recall a member posting about coming into one a few years ago over on /r/guns.

>>33790990
>>33790996
>>33791002
Thanks for the leads, my good fellows.

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>>33791040
Yeah, I dripped a bit too much epoxy in there, but it is a DAAAAAAMOTHERLAAAND cartridge, so bodies in mass graves just goes aong with it.

>>33791041
I know originally the .58 my dad sold had come out of the Smithsonian, but he had bought it from some retired general collector.

Ever talk to Lew Curtis about his experimental 9mm project for the .gov?


Pic of a factory defect (Remington of course) .38 Special that didn't get annulus lacquer.

>>33791002
The swiss army had a procurement program starting in the 70s with the second indo china war and the start of "intermediate cartridges" in which they evaluated new cartridges. There were three main competitors. Eiger 5.6mm, GP80, and GP82 basicly. 223. Eiger dropped out first and the two remaining were tied to two new rifles. The WEIZE project (WEIche ZiEle, Soft targets) of the W+F Bern (ill send some sweet pictures and videos to Ian soon), and the SIG 540. Due to an idiocy in the procurement hampert by the mirage controversy, they decided to "play it safe" and declared the NATO cartridge the new standard so the GP82 became todays GP90. The SIG 540 with changes was the new model 550 was chosen because SIG "already had the know how" despite the french having made them in license. WE COULD HAVE HAD A QUARTER CENTURY ADVANCE!

>>33791041
I sadly dont recall the official number or name of that cartridge.

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>>33791086
Makes me angry... It's like talking about the adoption of the M14 over the FAL.

Check out the nylon wad in the base of this commercial 7.62x39

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>>33791115
>>33791086

7.5x38 Swiss Grenade Blank

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>>33791136
H/S

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>>33791148
7.92 CETME

Oh what could have been!

>>33791153
H/S

I think the requirements for this cartridge were ridiculous

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>>33791161
Forgot image

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>>33790952
Sabotagecartridge
Its a brit copy of the Wehrmachtscartridge Code P 490 by Hugo Schneider AG, in Altenburg Germany. Its rigged with 1.2 gram of plastic explosives.
It was parachutet during the night in fake german supply chests onto german occupied land. Even the headstamps were faked.

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>>33791170
I remember reading about these, there's apparently a lot of sabotage ammo popping up in the Mid East lately.

Pic of .36 Geraghty

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>>33791186
Case head

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>>33791153
The Spanish were definitely dreaming at the time and still stuck two wars in the past. The Voss bullets are very neat items. Is that core brass or is it just a white balance issue with the photo? Mine and others I've seen have aluminum cores.

>>33791170

I know it's war, but this is evil.

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>>33791345
GP90 Tracer and Blank
Blank is aluminium.

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>>33791436
5.6 blanks for blank device

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>>33790842
Found it! 8.3cm Rakrohr (bazooka) 20mm blind projectile with tracer for training gun insert.

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>>33790079
Very much so, but I don't have room to put out the 50lbs or so of stuff I have. So I just display the main common stuff I shoot, or at least the most easily recognized stuff.
Here's a pdf of the whole collection in boxes. From a dead forensics college instructor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxkkGNfKkDo2N2ZwVTR0czd5SkE/view?usp=sharing

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>>33791616
Here's one of the rifle ammo boxes, and some of the cooler stuff.
I really love the ABC needle sharp armor piercing 556. I bet your barrel would be shot damn fast if you used it.
The salvo squeeze bore .50 is cool too.

>>33790668
>>33790663
.40sw as seen by 10mm master race

>>33791209
White balance issue, 2003 camera I think lol
>>33791616
I think I might have seen this one a facebook group
>>33791641
ABC Needlesharp? I need a half dozen thousand of those

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.270 Broadway Trust experimental, fired case with recovered projo

>>33790645
>>33790642
how do you cut the primer in half?

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>>33791656
>I think I might have seen this one a facebook group
I suppose it's possible, but that's one of my crappier pics because I can't take good pics of the whole spread.
>>33791656
>ABC Needlesharp? I need a half dozen thousand of those
Yup, I just have the 4 of them. I don't have a lot of any one cartridge often times. But I have anywhere between one and a whole box depending on what the forensic guy had on hand.
Even have some civil war era stuff like .54 burnside, pin fire, needle fire, nipple fire, paper cartridges etc.

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>>33791670
H/S (or lack thereof)

>>33791675
Steps for sectioning:
1) pull bullet
2) dump powder
3) inert primer with laqcer thinner and oil
4) cut components with saw or grind away
5) put it all back together
6) ??????
7) Profit!

I usually just start sawing with a thin bladed jeweler's saw (ten thousand times stronger than katana steel trollolol) and take my time not to get anything too hot.

>>33791688
>>33791691
I love this stuff

>>33790642
>>33790645
>>33790638
I asked you in a previous thread, can you link me to a jeweler's saw like you use? I really would be willing to invest a bit to do proper cross sections and maybe sell groups of them on gunjoker or something.
I know I'd pay a pretty penny for a set myself.

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>>33791700
.50 Crispin

>>33791705
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/german-adjustable-jewelers-4-saw-frame/110042

Very similar to mine^

https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Jewelers-Saw-Blade/110195

Blades (you will break a lot of them...)

https://www.riogrande.com/Product/German-4-Saw-Frame-and-Saw-Blade-Kit/110112

^The whole package


The trick with the saw is getting tension on the blade so it doesn't flex and can produce a "twang." Also get some beeswax and wipe it on the backside of the blade (not the teeth)

>>33791700
thx, may have inspired me to try sectioning a bullet this weekend out of curiosity

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>>33791705
Look up Kevin Gross or Wolfgang Gross, he and Paul Smith are both masters of sectioning. I'm super amateur
>>33791732
Glad to infect the masses

Have you ever put it in your butt?

>>33791730
>https://www.riogrande.com/Product/german-adjustable-jewelers-4-saw-frame/110042
wait its a hand tool? not an electric saw? how are you holding the projectile and cartridge, in a vise?

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>>33791700
>I love this stuff
Same, that's why I have that whole spread sitting in front of my computer screen.
>>33791730
>>33791743
Yeah, here's one I did, but I'd prefer a faster way to do it. And your saw looks like it's done it beautifully. My setup ok for small stuff like this, but takes forever with a larger cartridge like 54r. Hand files work well and quickly too, but the bullet likes to turn and fall out once the crimp isn't putting pressure on the bullet to keep it in place.

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>>33791747
I'm looking at this package. I imagine this would be sufficient? I'd rather use ebay because I can write it off for my business more easily.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jewelers-Or-Crafters-Saw-Kit-With-Twelve-Blades-Cutting-Lube-Vise-/291269582559?hash=item43d1051edf:g:Tg8AAOSwF1dUQGOi

>>33790719
>them 37mms
Is the blue dildo 25mm HV?

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Went through my grandfather's stuff a year ago. If anything interesting is in their I would appreciate identification.

>>33790719
25x59mm for the OCSW

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>>33791790
>>33791747
Yes!

Yeah I'm an engraver, so I use a ball vise I can lock stuff into.


>>33791778
I use epoxy to put everything back together and there's a lot of hand filing that goes into refinishing the metal.

>>33791840
Go to the International Ammunition Association website and post pics for IDing, they're a helpful group. Just get some good closeups of headstamps and dimensions if you can.

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>>33791996
Here's a fun one.

.50 BMG that had been reloaded about 7 times. See the ring? The thin spot in the case wall?

Future case head separation.

>>33791996
>so I use a ball vise I can lock stuff into.
Sweet, I think I know what to get my dad for christmas or his birthday. Wasn't aware those existed.
He'll love something like that so long as it's strong enough to take a beating. Sometimes you need to bend metal pieces on it so it's got to take a bit of a hammering.

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>>33792012
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=grs+ball+vise&ul_noapp=true


I use the standard or low profile, but the microblock is a nice one. Small, but thay all are workhorses. You can actually make a vise out of a bowling ball, lawn mower tire, and a small clamp if you're handy.

Some 20 mm. The purple one is a butt plug, I mean high pressure test.

>>33792033
Looks like 20x102mm vulcan.

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>>33792033
Business card of the guy who bought the .270 Broadway Trust

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>>33792042
Correctamundo

Impressive armor penetration test for a saboted round. This was Pepper's display a few years ago.

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>>33790079

glad you asked. pic related is an older photo.

anyone else interested in getting a general going? i think thatd be awesome. Also, could help in identifying unknowns.

>>33792045
Now you've got me digging through my business cards. I swear I've got one of Mr Burruss's around here somewhere. I got some XM855A1's from him a few years back cheap as free.

>>33792059
If there's a cartridge discussion I'll be there.

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>>33790719

>St. Louis

had to celebrate my hometown by picking up the teardrop bullet from the civil war

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>>33792089

awesome, i've recently become a fan of wildcats.. really got started on older military ammo and civil war era

/cartridgecolectiongeneral/ when?

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>>33792059
>>33792089
Same.

And yeah Pepper is a helluva nice guy. I remember a fired tunnel rat round came up at the SLICS auction in 2015 while he was running the visual aspect of it. He literally put his card up to bid and didn't bring it down.

He apparently really likes weird colored rounds

>>33792098
Haha yes

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>>33792111
I really want some Tubas, Wildcats are really interesting. I knew someone who used to make ridiculously stupid stuff like my .40 Short & Weak.

20mm case necked down to a phonograph needl, a .308 with the case head cut off and a .45 stuck in the back (.30-.45 Near-Far), a .223 with a Christmas tree light shoved in place of the projo (a light load)

>>33790647
Impossible to reload... but possible to 3d print the cartridge portion, I bet. Could be cool

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>>33792141
Very possible to reload!

Internal pinfire

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>>33792138

tubas are neat, I heard there is actually a weapon designed to utilize them now. Mine is the .44 mag case necked down. I heard there is a .45 acp as well.

Also, had to pick up the .17 incinerator to secure the meme end of wildcats.

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>>33792138
I got my .22 Tubas from Zach Weighman years ago along with some .50 BMG's necked down to .22 and .17.

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>>33792163
>meme of wildcats
>the meme of memes

We need to go deeper...

>>33792175
I still mean to pick up a Fat Mac from him, my dad really wants one.

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>>33792185

follow me down the rabbit hole anon

I've been looking for stuff at gun shows and online.

civil war stuff can always be had on ebay, but i'm somewhat skeptical of the authenticity at times.

where does everyone else search?

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>>33792221
What are those four bottlenecked beauties?

I'm in a couple bookface groups and on the IAA site mostly.

>>33792057
>7.62 SLAP in lower right corner
Got a better pic of that? I really like the idea.

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>>33792221
>>33792236
Speaking of CW stuff, I had a couple .577 Enfield bullets found in Black Creek in Middleburg, FL for awhile, but sold them.

One had a pitch plug and the other had a clear-as-day L cast inside of it.

>>33792185
That's a very impressive collection of MG131 13mm.

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>>33792251
Sorry I don't have the .308 SLAP closeup, only the .50 BMG. I will attest it was about a .20 or .22 caliber hole.

>>33792260
Thanks, although a lot has been sold

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>>33792236

>from left to right

7mm Nambu
8mm Nambu
7.65 Parabellum
.224 Montgomery (only true wildcat there)
and some trounds because I have always been a fan of them.

I also picked up what I believe is 7mm mauser at a gun show a week or so ago. They measured about perfect all the way around, accept for the case length is a bit short.

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>>33792251

pure sex, I've really been wanting to add a burnside cartridge to the collection.

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>>33792260
If you've never heard of a ShVAK cannon, you should look it up.

>>33792275
.224 Montgomery
Well crap the list keeps getting longer.

>>33792292
What's great about Burnsides is they aren't all too uncommon. Ever had a .44 Evans?

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>>33792313

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>>33792334

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>>33792313
I cannot say I've ever had a .44 evans, I have heard the name, but I am not fortunate enough to own one... yet

and yeah, if you haven't gotten a copy of Cartridges of the World yet, I'd really recommend it. The wildcat section is bretty cool.

Also has good info on many defunct military rounds.

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>>33792378
Is dat sum 7.5 Frog??

Yeah the Evans ctg isn't all that interesting, but the Evans carbine is a mindfuck.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/blancard/evans.htm

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>>33792236
>>33792007
>>33791996
>>33791778
>>33791743
>>33791170
>>33791115
>>33791079
>>33790645
>>33790642
>>33790638

I'm kind of wanting to give sectionals a shot. I have a flycutter and HSS blanks plus access to a machine.

I read the other posts and I was kind of curious if anyone has ever used those tools with a sort of water solluble epoxy and a ghetto-rigged v-block.

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>>33791641
forgot I had this pic of some of them

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>>33792421

syrian made frog bullets from what I can tell.

that evans is a very sexy rifle

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>>33792245
I thought I had a picture with both the AP and tracer 7.62mm SLAP but this is all I've got put together in my archives. I'll have to fish them out of the collection to get a new photo. The tracer uses an M196 tracer projectile (no red paint on the tip) rather than an actual penetrator.

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>>33792450
Not sure honestly, most of the people I've talked to just used a grinder and epoxy everything back together.

>>33792455
Noice.

>>33792463
That it is. A friend of mine has one with a shorter barrel, it's an unbelievably cool gun, but so complicated.

>>33790116
Carl walther died in 1915

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>>33792483
Seriously? Well I did not know that. But it has been confirmed these were found in the Walther factory at least, maybe in some researcher's desk.

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>>33792482
I was considering putting it either in a v-block or using a offset of 3 or 4 parallels staggered in the vise with the taller ones on the 'outside'

I think it'll work without any serious risk, since using a flycutter I'd have a very very shallow depth of cut.

If my work would let me, I'd just shim and toe clamp them and do one half at a time in the CNC

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>>33792483
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/9mm-rocket-cartridges/319

Lew Curtis is probably the foremost authority on the 9mm rockets, next time I see him I'll get it cleared up.

>>33792517
As long as you're not heating anything up too much, you won't have an issue. Just be careful if you're cutting anything HE.

>>33792313
>If you've never heard of a ShVAK cannon, you should look it up.
Of course I've heard of the ShVAK. But how is it relevant? The ShVAK uses a rimmed straight-walled case, not a belted bottleneck.

>>33792348
MG151/20 20x82mm?

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>>33792811
Second from the left in the pic you quoted. Just thought I'd mention it haha

>>33792823
Yup

>>33792470
Thanks m8!

>>33792845
Oh I see.
My bad, thanks!

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>>33792899
Kinda hard to believe they got that ridiculous fire rate with that cartridge

OP here, I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long. I didn't know there were people out there with an interest in cartridges by themselves.

Join the International Ammunition Association if you can, it's cheap and you get a magazine every month with great articles on random stuff, new and old.

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Can anyone tell me what the blue tip is? headstamp is IMI 09 which I assume is the production year, and the bullet profile is like a M855 greentip.

>>33793001
Frangible

Unrelated article, but neat read, I've got one of these:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/23/556mm-semi-wadcutter/

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this is everything ive got so far, i only started collecting a year ago before that i was just keeping sentimental brass.

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>>33793144
If you like recovering bullets, you need to find yourself an icy ditch like I have.

>>33793178
Has anyone punched paper with handloads and recovered the bullets to compare the rifling marks with the shot grouping?
Mite b kewl

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>>33793200
doubt it, but maybe someone has

>>33793224
It would be pretty neat to see if a rifle that shoots a specific load well has a sweet spot on the bullet where the lands engage.
Considering all the baby boomer autism i ran into when researching national match m1as, it should be out there somewhere

>>33793178
I just recover them for ballistic analysis, im not that interested in ust having slugs. A few of those are FMJ modified to softnose Jacketed.

My grandma has the bullet they pulled out my grandfathers leg when he was shot in WWII. I have been meaning to get a picture of it for reference.

>>33793243
I remember seeing a handloading article about this, how certain rifles will shoot the same specific ammunition differently.

My dad has a suppressed Remington 700 in .243 that he cannot handload to compare with factory south african ammo for it.

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cartridge and ordnance curio & relic collectors 552794781594172

Vintage Antique Ammo Collectors - Discussion
522885381162426


Shameless share of facebook groups for anyone interested in collecting.

>>33793280
>how certain rifles will shoot the same specific ammunition differently.
Yeah, i think it's because manufacturers don't control the headspacing and throat depth perfectly, because it would be a nightmare to do on a large scale. Commercial manufacturers also cut the throats slightly long so that bubba doesnt blow his arm off when he puts a hotrodded .270 in his rem700
Apparently a small difference in throat depth can make a huge impact on a rounds accuracy

>>33793427
"jumping the gap" doesn't just refer to revolvers.

Also, OP here, I'm signing off. all of you have been great!

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>>33790645
In theory this round is technically anti werewolf?

>>33792007
Jesus fucking christ, I no longer will bitch about semi .50s being expensive if they can stop that from blowing up the gun.

>>33793752
Is that ammo thicc enough for [spoiler]Hetty[/spoiler] to be on it?

>>33791115
>the US adopting the M14 of the FAL makes him angry
>The M16 would have just replaced the FAL like it did the M14

p autistic desu

>>33796858
If we're in the universe where the US doesn't go fully autistic US MADE MANSTAPPAH the .280 would have become NATO standard and the FAL would have been a fine rifle.