Megacity combat thread

>>33776919
Don't, shell the shit out of it and blockade supplies; after a month any hostiles will surrender.

Storming the gates of a city has been, and will always be, less preferable than sieges.

>>33776919
>How would you organize fighting units for megacity combat?

Carpet bomb the absolute shit out of them for a month, then send in the troops.

>>33776987
Enjoy the sewers.

>>33776974
>>33776987
>Destroying valuable infrastructure, art, loot, and human capital at an obviously important location evidence by the fact that there's a giant goddamned city there.

If you're at the point where you're prepared to level a city, you're at the point where you don't need ground troops in the first place because you're just glassing the fucking country anyway.

>>33776919
Small units infiltrate and capture key points in a simultaneous blitzkrieg assault with air mobile follow-on forces to re-enforce the key points and move to capture secondary and tertiary positions. Realize even then you aren't going to 'capture' a mega-city. You'll force it to surrender and wind up dealing with an insurgency of die hard military personnel, patriotic civilians or criminal elements whose cash flow is disrupted under your occupation, or you simply aren't going to have enough men to put a fire team in every neighborhood and will only hold what your military needs, leaving much of the city to it's own devices.

Think how Bane took over Gotham City in the Dark Knight Rises.

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>rappelling down a skycrapers with a 1500ft.+ of rope
>sniper teams shooting an under-construction floor into another skyscraper
>kiowas shredding entire floors resulting in dazzling glass showers
>elevator shaft tactics
>new generation of cqb gear
>A E S T H E T I C S

can't wait

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>>33777049
did you just say, what i think you said?

>>33777046
I don't think you understand the difference between sieging a city and razing a city. It takes alot of fucking effort (or one big nuclear effort) to raze a city. you stop shelling when the white flags start popping up; as is tradition for sieging non-megacities.

shitload of drones packed with sensors I suppose

>>33776919
Focus more self sufficiency at the company level.

>>33776919
This assumes there are resources of strategic or military value in megacities which could not be otherwise captured or neutralized through methods like cyberwarfare, EMP strikes, or good old fashioned defection. Possible, yes, but not probable.

What hard, "meatspace" targets would/do/will megacities contain?

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>>33777137
The fire rises!

>>33776974
>after a month any hostiles will surrender
That hasn't worked out so well in Syria now has it?

>>33776919
>How would you organize fighting units for megacity combat?

>Saturation bomb to turn everything into a pile of gravel
>napalm that to make ded things dedder
>send in troops to make sure everythings ded

>>33777046
Your right.

We should use biological weapons and be done with it.

>>33776919
1. Hold the subways. Easy cover. Easy point A to B.
2. Specific buildings. Not as they are important as they are staging locations. Helicopter landing on roofs are nice.
3. Parking garages, none live there, tons of vehicles, easy defense after 2nd floor.
4. Deploy-able barricades or walls. Talking building to building level with vehicle pass through. Control routes.
5. Shields. Lvl 4 with window. just in case a sniper is lucky.

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>>33776919
Mega City you say?

>>33776919
I saw a video on this shit. The IDF are already setting up training 'cities' for this similar type of fighting they face often.

>>33776919
Dresden 2.0 then bring in ground troops once bombing is complete.

>>33777046
>not just building a better mega city on the newly flattened ground of the old one

>>33777918
Don't Palestinians live in mud huts though?

>>33776919
Not sending conscripts in shitty BMP-2s would be a good start

lol imagine being in a city full of spics and niggers. Nuke is a fucking blessing I wouldn't defend shit in a 'multicultural vibrant' city

Man, fighting in the middle of downtown SF, LA, washington DC, new york, all of that shit would be a nightmare for counter-sniping alone. Imagine trying to find the one window in millions that has the sniper that just gave your buddy a haircut.
We look back at Stalingrad being bad, with >10 story buildings, but imagine a battle of that scale being fought among buildings hundreds of stories high. Imagine one being collapsed, it could easily trap thousands of men with no hope of escape.

>>33778142
>find building that housed sniper
>block off all exits
>get loudspeaker and tell everyone inside that they won't get food unless the sniper is presented, with his rifle (unloaded), to you

if he takes another shot, just start unloading with the .50 onto the windows for, uh, fresh air purposes for later allied bases in the building

Nuek em

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>>33778057

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>>33778286
Wow, Ive literally never seen a city so big, what a megacity.

>>33778374
I never said it was a mega city. Calm your autism.

>>33778157
if we're talking stalingrad level you're at the point where no one gives a fuck. normal civilians would have run the fuck away already.

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>Surround city
>Block all roads
>Land on rooftops and build defences up there ready for quick escape if the dickheads set the building on fire
>Block the river flow or pour gas in it

so much you can do!

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>>33777105
mfw you will never be apart of a sniper unit

> Just do Dreaden 2.0

Yes, let's bomb every bit of advanced infrastructure, you know, the very reason we give a shit about the city in the first place. Even Stalin was smart enough to try and yank the manufacturing bases out of Germany intact.

>>33776919
Helicopters strafe the city with mustard gas for 12 days while drones bomb the highways, subway stations, and ports. After that everybody should be dead

>>33779189
> Everyone must die.

Why are you there? What are your strategic goals in the city? How does removing the entire populace achieve those goals?

>>33779304
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Colonizing?

>>33779304
lebenstraum

>>33779315
> Colonizing
> Lebenstraum
> The problem is not enough land
> Despite the article mentioning everyone leaving the country side and congregating in cities

Their going to be putting down insurrections in strategically important cities, some of them probably domestic. Get ready super shitty ROE.

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>>33776919
i mean.... the only places that america fights anymore are failed states taken over by psychopaths. mega citites cannot exist in a failed state. therefore we will never fight in a mega city.

i think overhauling the army for this would be a huge waste of resources.

>>33779379
Mexico, Bolivia, Brazil, and Venezuala have all shown recent alarming negative slopes in their economies, and they all have very large cities.

>>33778142
At a certain height you'll start experiencing a dead zone where you can't cover a certain radius at street level around your position (building).

Upper floors are going to be the territory of MANPAD/ATGM teams and Heavy Snipers taking cross city shots. Sure you could do a light mortar up there too but that's a whole fuck ton of deflection

>>33776974
>Don't, shell the shit out of it and blockade supplies; after a month any hostiles will surrender.

When has this worked in the modern era anon?

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>>33779379
>mega citites cannot exist in a failed state

>Mexico City, Cairo, Dhaka and Karachi will never ever conceivably be part of a failed state.

>>33776974
>t. Russia

>>33777177
Material production, recruitment, and R&D

>>33779379
they cant be generated *after* a state fails, no. But that doesnt matter

>>33778081
What if it was an ethnic cleansing though

>>33776919
I mean this is near future so ill be going off speculated shit but.
Have units sieze utilities like power, water etc, Secure major acces routes into city. Deny access to food/water/power until citizens register biometrics with my forces. Id have accoustic sensors set up to detect gunshots/drones to investigate.

Sound like you shouldn't move to a big city unless you want to have your freedom raped.

>>33780161
That not how it's going to work.

This will be you against your own citizens.

Imagine terrorists start attacking new york city..., US troops will invade and start doing exactly what they do in the middle east but on a larger scale; go into buildings and search everyone.

Megacities are globalized anyway, we don't have countries anymore, we have diverse rural areas and homogeneous megacities that are too connected (via the internet and trade) to be considered culturally "different". The cultures of all megacities are "westernized".

>>33776919
Neutron bombs.

>>33777157
This. You don't need to battle through a mega city if your corner office looks out over it anyways.

>>33776974
>destroying valuable resources and infrastructure because you're too lazy to fight on the ground

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can someone post the urban combat version of this?

>>33780538
homogeneous megacities that are too connected (via the internet and trade) to be considered culturally "different". The cultures of all megacities are "westernized".

u wot

>>33776919
You'd have to train units in counterinsurgency tactics, and greatly reduce the mechanization level of these units, as Lyall and Wilson point out, mechanized units fare worse in asymmetrical combat due to the large amount of humint and foot patrolling needed in order to combat insurgent tactics.

Manpads, snipers, and IEDs will be the biggest threat to forces in a mega city, and as a result, helo support will be of limited use. Indirect fire support from missile destroyers and subs will likely be the best you could count on.

Heavy use of drone surveillance and surveillance systems already in place in said cities will provide the data commanders need in order to react to enemy activity in the mega cities. In addition, building informant networks for humint will be key.

>>33776919
Sorry but this is literally impossible.
See Stalingrad, but 10x worse.

There's a reason that the soviets decided to completely avoid urban combat when drawing up their plans for the assault on west germany

>>33777012
Fill the sewers with poison gas.

>>33777046
>besieging a city would be more destructive than fighting for the city block by block, floor by floor, apartment by apartment.

>>33778286
So yes.

>>33779405
of course, but at that point you would be able to give sniper, ATGM, or even MANPADS teams an excellent surrounding view.

>>33778157
The role of an urban guerilla sniper is to provoke exactly that sort of response. One bullet can provoke a regular fighting force to slaughter thousands of civilians.

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>>33781976
Durr. I can't read and I suck dicks.

>>33780557
Neutron bombs still wreck shit, just with less blast and therefore less fallout . They're for fucking up large amounts of armor and troops in the open.
A city hit by a neutron bomb would not only have it's infrastructure damaged, but would still have many survivors left behind since even rudimentary cover allows protection from the radiation pulse

>>33782057
Nanomachines that rip apart a body from the inside out. Looks like a plague but it's not.

>>33776919
You mean: The Army has only just now released this information that has been known for 50 fucking years but now it has been declassified.

Thanks OP for being the fucking paper-boy

>>33780557
>>33782086
Stop pretending you are Genghis Khan. Even he understood that human labor of his subjects was a necessary input for his empire's economy.

>>33782057
The most effective cover for neutron radiation is water. It zips right through heavier like metal.

Conveniently, concrete has a very high water content, meaning concrete is effective shielding for neutron radiation.

>>33782196
I'm not pretending to be Genghis Khan. If you seriously think that there's any way to take something like a megacity without running up massive deficit of manpower and equipment, you're the deluded one.

Regardless of what you do, pacifying something like that without an astonishing loss of life on both sides isn't feasible.

>>33782233
Again, why are you pacifying the city. Is it rebels? Is it rioting? Is it a nuclear device? In all of these cases, killing the city's entire population with a neutron bomb or a nano-plague is unnecessary and counterproductive.

>>33776919
Gas.

>>33777185
Syria is a shit example. It wasn't blockaded for long enough.

>>33778157
Meanwhile, the sniper holes up in a broom closet until sunset. Then he heads up to the roof, unpacks/assembles his ultralight, and flies off into the moonrise. Lands on a building a block away, finds the closet with the pre-staged supplies and sets up to repeat the process.

Back at the first building, a platoon is tasked with doing a floor-by-floor search. They become very unhappy with this activity when they start getting into the mechanical ambushes around the 50th floor or so. It gets even better when follow on forces run into the ones that were activated by the searchers moving through.

>>33779374
>Get ready super shitty ROE.

Probably comparable to what cops deal with.

>>33781903
You'd have to collapse sections to the point of being airsealed.

>>33777049
You're betting that the ENTIRE population has been subjected to full gun control, down to the criminal elements.

>>33777155
checked, and underrated with the new swarm AIs

>>33777223
Or take the city, break it down into sections smaller than the city block. Controlled localized gassing.
>Use fear and trapping to get hostile militants in one small confined space, conventional and gas
>Then gas them

>>33778740
Dump detergent in it instead. Its cheaper, too.

>>33779304
I came from /pol/. Need I say more?

>>33777185
Hell, even with Russian aid, it took Assad literally 6 months to break Aleppo. Seiges are damn hard.

>>33782396
>You'd have to collapse sections to the point of being airsealed.
Nah

>>33779379
let me buy you a plane ticket to Kenya, the refugee camps alone are megacities, not to mention Mombassa.

>>33782407
The conduits are continuous in some sections. You'd want to control the flow.

>>33782380
Worse. It won't just be the hard criminal elements, with shit chances for support and resupply.

>>33782418
No, you'd want to flood the entire system with gas. Why contain it?

>>33782430
For effectiveness. You're trying to take the city, right? Target discrimination alone is an asset, equipment isn't a one size fits all measure.
>One puncture, and nerve gas fucks you up
Also, its wasteful. The weight it puts on a supply initiative? Just block off sections, and take the areas as you can and must.

Do you fucking retards not know what happens when you shell a city to oblivion? It creates more cover for the defenders and prevents friendly armour from getting through the debris. Literally the reason Stalingrad couldn't be taken.

Ballistic shields are going to make a comeback so hard. Cities with large structures I've heard hotels spent years being fought over. Multiple choke points and floors. Gaining ground in a spot like that would be fucked up unless you want to level the entire structure. The only reason to not destroy that is either the owner has a lot of influence or it just isn't cost worthy to turn the entire spot to a pot hole because of collateral damage with civilians in there.

>>33779379
It's pretty likely that Mexico City will become a warzone in the next couple decades, and if that happens it's almost guaranteed the U.S. will intervene

>>33782446
Who said anything about nerve gas? Hydrogen cyanide is the obvious choice of gas for this application. Put a forced air fumigator on top of dozens of manholes across the city and pump the entire thing full of vaporized hydrogen cyanide.

Leaks would be a non-issue, since in low concentrations the human body breaks down cyanide just fine. It's not nerve gas.

>>33779587
Material production doesn't seem particularly likely as a product of megacities, which place a premium on the horizontal space necessary to produce materials in meaningful quantities.

Recruitment from previously hostile populations is just stupid - even conscription is thought of as relatively ineffective for recruiting soldiers.

R&D I can see, to some extent. So now the question becomes "how does one fight to secure heavily defended research in a heavily populated area?" That question, given the problem of moving quickly within a city (traffic), turns into "is combat and therefore extraction necessary, or can a nonviolent solution work?"

>>33782518
I'll concede that

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Since someone asked for the urban variant.

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Halo 3 odst as fuck my guys. The last game where halo was still k as fuck. But anyway i wonder what benefit destroying infrastructure has to either side. Seems like if your goal is to control not destroy its only a hindrance to EMP, kill levis, collapse tunnels, etc.

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We fight sky scraper to sky scraper with 3D maneuver gear

their best bet is conditioning the population of that city to become pacified. if the number of fighters is too great, the military cant do shit but get themselves killed. the number of cuckolds that live in cities is too great though. fighters will get ratted on after the supply blockade begins. you'd be killing more noncombatants than soldiers if you were a fighter.

>>33782396
>You're betting that the ENTIRE population has been subjected to full gun control, down to the criminal elements

No, quite the opposite.

Laughing at the number of guys in this thread who think this massive urban firefight is happening in a bubble. Any use of nukes is going to have the international community hailing your opposition as freedom fighters and railing you in the ass with whatever sanctions, blockades, etc they can dream up.

Poison gas? How well did that work for Assad?

Leveling blocks with artillery? Again, Assad, Fallujah, Grozny?

If you're not using your intelligence services to identify important people in the city and making them offers they can't refuse so they *give* the city to you without a fight, or making them have an 'accident' or 'scandal' with an eye to their successor being more agreeable to you, you're doing 21st century warfare wrong.

TL; DR? It's 2017. Turning a major city into Stalingrad 2.0 is a good way to lose what war you're fighting.

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>>33776919
If it were up to me I'd encircle it, bomb the water and food facilities and pepper it with artillery/rockets and let it starve.

No need to waste my fellow countrymens lives for useless enemy people that would pick up a gun in 15-25 years in revenge

>>33785012
Nonsense. Clearing away the enemies numbers to make way for your own people to settle is a great idea that is very hard to execute nowadays.

>>33777049
Pretty much what we did with Baghdad. I don't suggest ever doing it again. I guess Tehran would be most likely, don't know why we wouldnt just level it with the venerable B-52s. If it isn't worth getting into total war over, it isn't worth getting into war over.

>>33785797
Minis the small group infiltration stuff. I meant only holding key points and not occupying every block.

>>33783960
Always wanted a tactical squad based shooter in the Halo universe where you play as a Marines or ODDTs. Like Brothers in Arms with aliens and caseless rifle ammunition. Still waiting.

>>33779379
Baghdad is a megacity.

>>33778142
Imagine fighting in a sea of endless low rise development like in LA, DC, Chicago, Iraqi city areas. No geographical advantages, just a sea of houses and strip malls.

>>33785872
True, Wikipedia lists it at about 8.7 million people and it's an ungovernable clusterfuck. ISIS terrorists come and go as they please and pretty much everyone at some point has committed a suicide attack in it.

>>33785012
Im not sure everyone who suggested such actions was completely serious. I honestly wanted to respond saying glass the city as a joke but decided not to when I saw everyone else do that already. Honestly Im not sure theres any clean or effective way to handle megacity warfare. When your enemy is nestled deep in the dwellings of the innocent, it makes morally bringing them down impossible, its why war will never be a simple kill the bad guys anymore.

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>>33776919
>Megacities
Implying we need soldiers

>>33785114
Thing is, that opens them up to do the same. Rules of war yo.

>>33777012
that's not how sewers work

>>33776919
Ignore retarded man who wants more boots on the ground and invest in more and more overpowered waving sticks that'd make actual wars even less possible.

>>33780856
>>33783817
I want to know where these are from.

>>33776919
Gas the city like your name's Assad.

>>33783817

>this delivery

Thanks post-man

>>33785012
>Poison gas? How well did that work for Assad?
No good given that apparently being the victim of it justifies yourself getting bombed.

>>33776919
Just like in WW2, those cities will still burn once the gloves are taken off.

>Sending in anything in a concrete jungle just to be ambushed by militants.
I honestly want the "welcomed as liberators" meme to end.

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>>33786191
>Thing is, that opens them up to do the same. Rules of war yo.

A divided city is no match for a unified military, no matter the circumstances. You will have racial groups compete during the siege with a sudden rise of crime and discord. The best part is that the occupying force gets front row seat in seeing a city and it's people tear themselves apart in the short lawlessness that is allowed to be. It's as easy as being a serial killer and blaming every death on enemy combat patrols. This is not some Leningrad shit in which everyone is not one race, one civilization.

>>33786151
You do realize they said at the start of the movie the Judges only respond to 6% of calls. And that's what's gets reported. 1 in 5 Judges don't make it through their first day. Not an organization to hold up as a good example.

>>33787011
Exactly. Whatever tactical use it's deployment gave him was more than canceled by the negative international attention using it brought down. Assad would be gone now, his regime joining Gadhafi, Hussein and the others if it wasn't for big daddy Putin being in his corner.

>>33786103
To be honest I don't know who is serious and who is trying to be edgy anymore. But I do think 21st warfare is going to have more in common with cops/prison guards and spies than full blown combat operations when it comes to urban combat because the alternative isn't feasible.

>>33787245
This. Plus they can choose to support one ethnic group or another and really fuck shit up.

>>33777105
>she will never be your cyborg elite hacker gf and princess carry you with her strong robotic arms
why live

>>33787422
>he still thinks Assad actually "gassed his own people"

>>33787158
>dude just level everything LMAO
i want brainlets to leave

>How would you organize fighting units for megacity combat?
I ain't no soldier, how the fuck am I supposed to know?!

But one thing I would do, is invest in simple-to-use mesh networking devices that have the capability to plug and play a wide variety of sensors and shit.

>sound arrays to automatically pinpoint where gunfire or explosions originated from
>phone network and radio transmission monitoring, so even if it's encrypted, a sudden burst of activity in an area could give you a heads up of activity or an attack
>heat mapping, so you can jerk off to people having sex in surrounding apartment blocks on slow nights on watch

Imagine sending up a drone swarm with all kinds of sensors, so much information, mmm...

>>33786191
A blockade is an act of war, not a warcrime.

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>>33785797
>If it isn't worth getting into total war over, it isn't worth getting into war over.

>>33786191
That's why you better make sure you can win and commit to other blockading other cities.

>>33785998
If everyone committed a suicide attack, wouldn't they all be dead?

>>33776974
where do we put the catapult, sir?

How would sewer/tunnel combat work in Mega CIties? What about Subways? Bridges would be choke points.

>>33776919
more grenade launcher and MG in squad level

>>33785998
>Isis goes as they pleases in Baghdad.

Confirmed for not knowing shit about the demographics of Iraq.

I think it woulf be a massive waste of time, money, and human life. What should be done is objective priotization. You cant hope to occupy a mega city its simply impossible. Taht said you xant just glass it from orbit either. What should be ficused on is extremely small unit elite tactics. Insert covertly, carry out a small scale objectives one at a time.

Since someone already mentioned dark knight rises - think of the SF team that sneaks in on the food trucks. That kind of small, highly mobile team would be key.

>>33789249
Read up on the battles of Berlin (1945) and the MANY battles in Grozny (1994-2000) for sewer/ tunnel combat in action. Read about Hue if you want some more varied environments.

In general, you have to go slow when clearing urban terrain, and that goes double when it's more dense. Hue has many examples of US troops overextending and being picked apart, and that happens in Grozny as well. I can't imagine this stops being true in tunnels.

>>33777199
board is for 18+

>>33776919
I'd combat mega cities with the nuclear triad. Also, bring back small nukes and nuclear tomohawks

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>>33783998
I like your thinking

>>33782219
1" lead
12" reinforced concrete
36" packed dirt
~8' water

Or a sheet of Demron, which breaks all the rules.

>>33793160
Lead is not effective neutron radiation shielding.

>>33793160
In fact, all of what you just listed is assuming ionizing photon radiation, not neutron radiation.