With this type of short stroke piston setup the piston could

>>33652951
Because unless you made the pins out of an exotic and expensive alloy they'd shear on the first shot.

And if you did make them out of an exotic and expensive alloy they'd shear on the 50th or 500th shot.

And you want your reciprocating mass (the piston head) as far back as possible, not as far forward as possible like in your design, and the chief complaint with pistons is the fuckhuge and heavy gas block (which your design makes even bigger and heavier) at the end of the rifle.

File: original piston.png (51KB, 355x96px) Image search: [Google]

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>>33652977
>Because unless you made the pins out of an exotic and expensive alloy they'd shear on the first shot.

My picture is not in scale, though i'll admit that they would have to be somewhat thicker than they are in my picture.

>And you want your reciprocating mass (the piston head) as far back as possible, not as far forward as possible like in your design

The piston head is moved forwards like 3 centimeters in my picture, not a relevant length.

>(which your design makes even bigger and heavier)

In my edited picture the gas block is pretty much the exact same size as in the original.

>>33653038
>though I'll admit they would have to be somewhat thicker than they are in my picture
Well considering your black pin is already ~90% the total diameter of your piston rod, you're pretty much up shit creek unless you make the piston rod bigger (and thus heavier and thus defeating the whole premise of "could be made significantly thinner")
>over an inch on something only a handful of inches long
>not a relevant length
Nigger that's huge. You're talking 1/10th to 1/8th the length of the piston system longer.
>In my edited picture the gas block is pretty much the exact same size as in the original.
Because you omitted the regulator, which is 100% required to function. Add it back in and you've doubled its size.

>>33652951
Could work. The AK counter balanced system has a pulling and pushing piston system.

File: piston that pulls and doesn't push improved.jpg (120KB, 1162x363px) Image search: [Google]

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>>33653077
>the shown way ie. a pin through the piston rod is the only conceivable way of mounting the piston rod to the lever
Do you not understand what talking about unfinished concepts means?

>Nigger that's huge. You're talking 1/10th to 1/8th the length of the piston system longer.
Ok i'm not even sure what you're trying to say here

>Because you omitted the regulator, which is 100% required to function. Add it back in and you've doubled its size.
Ok here, i removed the unnecessary space inside the gas block, does it still look bigger than the traditional push rod gas block arrangement?

>>33652951
It's obvious you have no engineering background at all so I'll just sage the thread rather than start an argument.

Go fuck yourself

>>33653121
Yeah i figured that would be a small added benefit, having reciprocating weight moving in the opposite direction than the bolt.

>>33653155
I mean honestly you might as well elaborate a bit rather than just say that.

>>33653148
Well you made it sound like this was THE WAY. And how the fuck else are you gonna pull on the piston but push on the BCG without a toggle, which would have to be pinned together SOMEWHERE to create a pivot point?

If your entire gas system is only 8-10" long (like, say, on a 14-18" barreled rifle), moving the heaviest part forward about 1.3" is pretty goddamn significant.

Still don't have a gas regulator but that's closer to a workable gas block.

>>33652951
What software did you use to make this?

File: comparison.png (76KB, 371x246px) Image search: [Google]

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>>33653175
I'n my pictures you can read that the dot only signifies the spot where the gas piston is meant to connect to the lever nothing more nothing less.

>If your entire gas system is only 8-10" long (like, say, on a 14-18" barreled rifle), moving the heaviest part forward about 1.3" is pretty goddamn significant.
Okay i put them side to side and it actually seems that they are pretty much the same, now if you only add a gas regulator behind the piston they are almost exactly the same in shape, size and weight distribution.

>>33653206
Googled image + 10000 hours in paint.

>>33652951

Are you talking about a blow forward, but with a piston set up?

>>33653306
No, this has nothing to do with blow forward, just rather than having the piston push it pulls and with the use of a lever inside the receiver this movement is reversed so that the bolt moves backwards.

>>33653348
i don't think you know how the levers work because ops image shows completely nonfunctional concept

>>33653272
You are completely out of your league, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Do you want validation for your idea? What is this thread even for?

>>33652951
It's an interesting idea, OP--but I don't think the AR-15 platform is the right one for that.

Flesh out thicker beefier parts for the bolt carrier group, and make it square for an AK or AR-180 derivative.

Might have some promise. Could potentially modify an AK gas block and BCG to work with it, but it probably wouldn't be ideal.

Also, you will probably need to make the charging handle cam the piston assembly forward to charge it manually.

>>33653378
Please do elaborate.
>>33653391
>yur dumb
A great argument there.

This thread is for discussing this concept in general.

>OP takes a proven and tested mechanism and completely makes it nonfuntional (with one simple change) and doesnt even realise the massive fucking oversight he's made.

>>33653416
Yeah the AR-15 is most certainly not ideal for this that is true, it was just the first picture i found on google that was suitable for demonstrating the concept.

>Also, you will probably need to make the charging handle cam the piston assembly forward to charge it manually.
The charging handle would be attached to the bolt carrier.

>>33653468
Please do elaborate.

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>>33652951
Red lever looks like very loaded and high wear part. But idea about pulling seems interesting. What about we move pulling piston to the rear and send gas to it via very thing and lightweight tube? Why wasn't this done before?

>>33653527
If you are already sending gas through a tube you might as well just have it push rather than pull.

>>33652951
Are you shooting bullets for ants? That lever would move that bolt a couple of centimeters tops.

Also the pin and connection on the lever would break easily.

I don't see any benefit even if you could make it work.

>>33653669
>That lever would move that bolt a couple of centimeters tops.
Do you know how short stroke piston guns operate in general?

>Also the pin and connection on the lever would break easily.
The way of mounting the lever to the piston was not specified anywhere so you can't say that they would break easily.

>I don't see any benefit even if you could make it work.
Lower weight due to a thinner piston was already mentioned.

>>33653781
>so you can't say that they would break easily.
>durr if I don't validate my concept with concrete design elements, you can't criticize it!

>>33653842
It's a concept drawing without correct proportions and you are literally saying "with pins that size they would break easily".

Do you not see the contradiction here?

>>33653781
So you'd add at least three points of failure, a more complicated build, and deal with the mechanics of a lever, just to use a slightly skinnier piston rod?
You'll probably need to add more weight just keeping the fulcrum pins strong enough than what a thinner rod would save you.

>>33654078
The weight savings from making the rod thinner would be quite significant though, i mean if you take a piece of piano wire and compress it it will buckle very easily but try pulling on it and you've got to pull it really hard for it to snap.

>>33654134
The piston rod could be literally 4mm thick and it would still be plenty strong.

>>33654134
>a rifle held together with sticks and string
Interesting

Fuck the haters, this is a very interesting concept that you should make into a working prototype.

>>33653527
now you're venting hot gas into your face

That's unique, and yes, the pull in tension can be dealt with easier than a push in compression....

but DI is better than either. No barrel whip due to the push or pull.

>>33656212
Assuming you're talking about the Stoner gas system:
>shitting where you eat
>can't handle long periods of FA fire
>expensive to manufacture
>any well made short stroke piston gun will be just as accurate
Wow it's literally shit

>>33656594
>shitting where you eat
stop memeing
>can't handle long periods of FA fire
cmon stop it
>expensive to manufacture
how the hell is this true?

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>>33656905
>how the hell is this true
Because a hunk of bar stock with a few cuts is cheaper than a complex machined shape.

Pistons can already be made that thin. Look at an SKS, SVD, or VZ58

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>>33653527
>Almost literally how a standard AR gas system works
The only difference is that you've added pointless complexity.

>>33657361
>Expensive
I can run to Cabelas and buy a $500 AR-15 TODAY.

>>33652951
>>33652977
The blue pin needn't be a pin. It could just be a camming surface on the receiver.

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>>33652951
here's my feedback

>>33653527
Eugene Stoner? Is that you?

Bolt returning to battery would (at some point, if not the whole way) impact on the lever....imparting forced forward, or pushing, motion on "the thinner gas rod"

And like someone else mentioned, your going to need a rather large lever to move the Bolt the distance of say a 556.

>>33652951
Good question, and concept

The "operating rod" would be in tension instead of compression, and therefore could be made smaller and lighter.

>>33657758
economies of scale, nigger

you can buy a new car for 15k. That doesn't mean it was easy to make.

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>>33658299
You could maybe even make the "operating rod" a cable, though I don't know why you'd want to.

>>33658288
The bolt striking the op rod lever would force the op rod backwards, toward the shooter. The op rod would be pulled when that happened. The lever would need to be strong enough to withstand that impact though. That's why I suggest a camming surface instead of that blue pin.

>>33658325
I think a solid link and a lever would be favorable over a cable or maybe a gear.

Since you want to use short stroke; a lever would behave itself better than anything else when it disengages and reengages with the bolt.

Adapting it to an ar15 would be tricky, but I think the concept in general is pretty neat

>>33658325
>>33658468
If I was going to cheaply improve the gay-r 15 it would be with a sleeved gas tube. It would essentially be a really long gas key which would keep the gas tube sealed and stop a lot of the shitting where it eats.

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>>33657758
4/10 bait needs work

>>33658490
I don't think that gas accounts for most of the gas that ends up in the action. I think the gas being plumbed into the BCG by design, and the gas coming out of the breach after unlock are the biggest sources of fouling.

>>33652951
>make it a tiny amount lighter but increase both mechanical complexity and cost to manufacture
>weight of new parts partially, or entirely offsets the weight savings

Also, the material you're looking for if you want high tensile strength is some sort of braided cable

>>33658491
http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/centerfire-rifles/semiautomatic-centerfire-rifles|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/105522480/i/105524280/anderson-mfg-am-optic-ready-centerfire-rifle/2392846.uts

>>33652951
Look up Bang-style rifles, they were an earlier method of actuating self-loading rifles that used a gas trap ahead of the barrel - the round left the barrel and the trap retained enough gas to be blown forwards, thus unlocking the bolt.

Ian did a recent video on an early Chinese experimental battle rifle that uses a very similar system, but the parts all look pretty chunky and solid on it.

If the kind of mechanism you described was viable, then someone would have already put it into production.

>>33659184
Does braided cable have a higher tensile strength than just straight up steel rod?

>>33657387
Take a piece of wire, compress it, it crumbles easily, now try to pull on it, you will notice that the amount of force required to crumble the wire is a lot smaller than the force required to snap the wire.

everyone's saying "DURR IT WOULDNT BE STRONG ENOUGH" but that's besides the point, it's more about whether or not the operating lever has the consistent required mechanical advantage to impart substantial energy upon the bolt carrier. the way the FAMAS actually works is by making the bolt act as a lever where it has to push the 'bolt carrier', pushed by a longer arm, to the rear with a shorter arm acting on a surface in the receiver. this provides so much resistance that it significantly slows the bolt down for the first quarter inch or so. not directly related to what you drew, but the lever as drawn here would actually be at a mechanical disadvantage compared to the bolt carrier.

>>33660470
Yeah other than the gas siphoning device or whatever being at the end of the muzzle this is pretty much straight up just the bang system it seems.

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>>33657361
>ar-15 bolt carrier is complicated to machine
Nah it's not really too bad desu.

File: bolt and bcg.jpg (81KB, 1000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

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>>33663861
What are your machinist qualifications?

Because I've got to say, that looks like quite a chore to machine. The mechanism is simple enough to understand, but you need a lot of cuts to actually make that thing. Have fun doing it in your garage on a bridgeport. Instead of viewing it as a whole, go through the cuts you'd need step by step.

File: AK107.gif (19KB, 475x143px) Image search: [Google]

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With a forward acting piston you could reap more benefits by placing half the reciprocating mass in the piston and transfer force to the bolt carrier by way of a gear. (rack<-gear->rack)

See included AK107 gif, the AEK-97x/A-545/A-762 does this better but I couldn't hastily find an animation of that system.

It doesn't need the double piston, but in that case you'd want to look at how ADCOR did what they call a free floating piston rifle, the B.E.A.R./ELITE.
Because Newton's third law and that.

>>33664527
>Have fun doing it in your garage on a bridgeport

Mass production is a thing retard. If you want proof, google how much the assembly actually costs. Not hard to make.

>>33664910
By that standard, no mass produced gun is difficult to make. The AR bolt and bolt carrier are plainly on the more complicated end of the scale.

>>33664930
>no mass produced gun is difficult to make.
Ding ding ding

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>>33652951

It's called the internal gas piston


>Aka dgi

>>33664965
You realize that simplifying and streamlining products for _improved_ mass production is a massive industry unto itself, right? The simpler the product is to manufacture, the larger your profit margin can be.

>>33652951

how does the piston function with the rod in the way?

not very well I'm guessing

>>33665053
You could fix that easier than unfucking the red lever thingy OP has in his design. That sucker is gonna snap, and the pins are gonna shear.

File: MAS-49.jpg (164KB, 660x440px) Image search: [Google]

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>>33664995
DGI doesn't imply a piston/cylinder bolt/bolt-carrier arrangement. See for instance the MAS-49.

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>>33665066
The blue pin shouldn't be a pin. It should be a camming surface that pushes against a corresponding surface machined into the receiver. And obviously the lever wouldn't be a daintly little thin thing like in OP's picture, you'd make it bulkier.

Imagine something similar to the construction of the accelerator lever in a FAMAS.

>>33665463
>Imagine something similar to the construction of the accelerator lever in a FAMAS.
Obviously not configured the same way, but similar in construction.

>>33653435
New anon here, no its not

It's people telling you why it's a dumb idea, and you desperately defending said dumb idea

>>33659724
>>33658319
Neck yourself

>>33665671
It's a cool idea, OP should pursue it.

>>33667263
You first.

>>33665671
Pretty much this.

A far simpler design is to remove the lever, put the gas port on the other side of the piston, and simply have the rod directly act on the bolt.

>>33661924
So this reversed piston system is so that we can use Russian-tier steel wire in place of a piston?

>>33670643
It would be inherently recoil cancelling. Instead of the OP rod and bolt both moving backwards, the op rod would move forwards while the bolt moved backwards.

>>33664930
No wtf are you talking about, some things are easier to mass produce and some things are easier to produce in your garage.

>>33664995
No, this is completely different from internal gas piston.

>>33665053
What are you talking about?

>>33665463
>>33665066
It is a motherfucking concept drawing, they are not pins but points where different parts are connected to each others and they wouldn't fucking snap because they wouldn't be so thin in the final product.

>>33665671
Look, i don't really give a fuck if my idea is dumb or not, what i do care about is shit arguments against said dumb idea.

OP wants a LR300?

>>33665463

OP is fixing what ain't broke. Creating a lever delayed/gas piston hybrid also makes it needlessly complex, which ruins the simplicity of either system.

>>33675960
What's broke is the lack of interesting new firearm designs. We've reached a technological plateau, which is boring. OP's plan fixes that by making something interesting.

>>33675812
LR300 is long stroke piston operated so, no.

>>33675960
>something that isn't broke can't be improved upon

>>33676392
>Aside from little things like better coatings and tweaks to fit levels the AR design has proven pretty resilient to "improvement"

>>33675812
>>33676386
Wrong on both accounts.

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>>33676527
Checkmate.

>>33676527
>AR
Nigger what the fuck are you talking about, the only reason there is an AR in the picture is that it was the first suitable picture i found on google to demonstrate the concept. I could have made the whole picture with paint but i figured this would have been a bit more comprehensible.

>>33676726
While I love that thing, I must note that's not really changing much about how they work.

>>33676726
I'm still wondering how they activated the trigger on the top gun.
It makes sense otherwise.

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>>33653155
five star post, asshole. maybe next time include some content instead of wasting bandwidth.

you couldn't engineer your way out of a wet paper bag, faggot.

>>33658468
>think a solid link and a lever would be favorable over a cable or maybe a gear.

someone was sleeping the day they lectured on mechanical efficiency

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>>33663861
next you'll tell me a boat propeller is easy to machine

or an offset hypoid gearset

dude stop posting about shit you dont know anything about. all it does is aggravate the knowledgeable and make you look like a dullard.

>>33680145
They don't, from what they said the top is fully automatic with the trigger held down and will fire upon the bolt closing on a loaded chamber.

>>33680180
Actual Mechanical Engineer here.

Fuck off and eat a bag of dicks OP, your idea won't work, its shit, you don't even understand fucking basic first SEMESTER engineering concepts, let alone fucking physics, you're not some special fucking snowflake, someone has probably entertained the possibility, fucking did 5 minutes of Force Diagrams and entered the results into a fucking Excel document and found out that unless you make it out of unobtainium brand retardium, it wouldn't work, why?

In oingo boingo ooga booga niggerniese ebonics because I'm damn fucking sure you can't understand anything else, the fucking shorter you make a part, the more its going to want to shear, and you DEFINITELY want it short because since you're using a lever, you're transferring more force to the bolt carrier as opposed to having a single fucking piston transferring the same, if not less force than what is needed. Why this wouldn't fucking work is because you either have the fucking piston fucking sit an inch above the bolt carrier and have it fucking rocket back, or have one that sits normally and shears off every 3 fucking rounds.

And also thats not how fucking pistons work or why they're not super fucking short.

Three guesses, first two don't count, it's got to do with the fucking fact that guns burn up a powder in a chemical process that generates gas that propels the projectile, and this fucking process doesn't fucking happen all at once, and we don't want it to because it would cause your fucking gun to grenade unless your chamber was an inch thick all around.

I have no words to describe how stupid you fucking are, other than the fact that you'll likely never breed will ease any loss of sleep I might have.

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>>33680778
But how do you really feel?

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>>33680778
>either finds random swearing funny or is actually sperging out
World's first underage mechanical engineer?

>>33680778
So tsundere. Jeez, get a room.

>>33680778
You're the type of engineer that doesn't realise that a hilok can't be installed in an enclosed space, aren't you?

>>33680778
t. 3rd year engineering student

Nigga, chill out. When you get in the real world, or promoted to a point where you interface with anyone other than your engineering manager you'll find out that most people are retarded. You can't sperg out every time or you'll die of a stroke at 35.
Do you have any idea how many time I've had to explain to clients the difference between absolute and gauge pressure? How many times I've had to explain to 20 year experience facility managers that their riser isn't going to burst because (((hydrostatic head))) is balanced inside and outside of a subsea pipeline and I can pressure up to MAOP because that's literally what MAOP is?

Don't get mad, just move on.

>>33680778
Engineering students are the worst type of autist. I bet you watch angry autist review videos on youtube and think they're great.

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>>33681431
>not knowing about a specific science because you aren't interested in it and don't need to makes you retarded
You sure are a prodigy genius anon, a step above the retarded masses.

Someone send this shit to Kel-Tec

>>33652951
Lemme get this straight...

Pull... the bolt...

Pull... the bolt...

Pull... the bo-
Nah, that shit won't work. The bolt needs to go backwards to allow the weapon to cycle. Also pins that small that will absorb the pressures of pulling the bolt forward that tiny are basically non-existent.

A blow forward weapon design has been designed in the past... and they generally were a failure. I suggest reading some information on mechanics and design as well as various metallurgy and machining before making any decisions.

>>33683673
He has a rocker to translate the pulling action into rotary and then pushing action. And as best I can judge, his main motivation for this is to reduce the weight of the piston rod by eliminating compressive buckling and all the stiffening and beefiness that demands... though I'm not really clear why the weight of the piston and rod really matter.

>>33683708
Isn't the front heaviness of the Piston ARs due to the piston and housing along with the barrel, not the rod itself?

I ain't an engineer by any stretch nor have I studied varying AR designs, but wouldn't that be what you'd want to lighten to reduce the front weight? Even then, that's a bad idea with manufacturing costs, stresses, and cause for malfunctions...

>>33652951

I'm really into unconventional systems like this OP. I'll try to render it in Algoodoo when I get off work.

>>33683708
Weight always matters.

>>33683673
Man i went through all the trouble drawing a pretty picture on paint and you can't take one single fucking second to look at rather than just sperging out.

>>33680778
>your idea won't work
>it wouldn't work
"my" idea has been used in many rifles before but it has not seen very widespread use, the question is not if it works or does not work but if it could be lighter than the traditional piston system for example.

>you're transferring more force to the bolt carrier as opposed to having a single fucking piston transferring the same
Why would that be? The point at which the lever is impacting the bolt carrier is as far away from the fulcrum as the point where the op rod is connected to.

>Why this wouldn't fucking work is because you either have the fucking piston fucking sit an inch above the bolt carrier and have it fucking rocket back
I've got actually no idea what you're trying to say here

>And also thats not how fucking pistons work or why they're not super fucking short.
What?

>Three guesses, first two don't count, it's got to do with the fucking fact that guns burn up a powder in a chemical process that generates gas that propels the projectile, and this fucking process doesn't fucking happen all at once, and we don't want it to because it would cause your fucking gun to grenade unless your chamber was an inch thick all around.
Okay here you are actually just sperging or what?

There are a lot of big and angry words in your post but absolutely no substance.

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Y'all niggas is gay

Buy guns that work, use them. You fucksticks aren't the next JMB or Eugene Stoner, although I bet you idiots rip on that johnny redeye more than you actually use your guns, if you have any.

>>33680778
>since you're using a lever, you're transferring more force to the bolt carrier as opposed to having a single fucking piston transferring the same
For an "Actual Mechanical Engineer" you're pretty fucking stupid. A lever doesn't HAVE to have mechanical advantage. OP's certainly doesn't; the piston-side moment arm is shorter than the bolt carrier side.

I certainly hope nobody's paying you to "engineer" anything.

>>33656594
You have to be 18 to post on 4chan Timmy. Now go watch some more FPSRussia videos and post comments on YouTube about how stopping power is the most importantest thing and how AKs are teh mostestest reliablest gun evar xDDDD

>>33685880
>I hate and want to discourage innovation and entrepreneurship
Found the communist

>>33685880
>Sitting there saying "it doesnt work" instead of trying to figure out how to make it work
Do you actually like guns?

>>33687298
Not an argument.

>>33687448
Neither is spouting ancient fudd memes that have been debunked a thousand times.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

>>33687477
Arguing that my argument wasn't an argument isn't an argument.

>>33652951
How about instead of a lever, you use a flipper with a smoothed surface?
That plus the steel cable stuff mentioned earlier seems actually plausible.