5.56x45/.223 vs. 7.62x51/.308

>>33612013
6.5 Grendel
Now fuck off.

>>33612081
>kek

I'm a 7.62x39 and .308 kind of fag.

>>33612102
AKfo-seben or MemeKS?

>>33612013
ofcourse .223
>bigger wound
>violent tumbling
>fragments into so many pieces that even the best docs couldnt save
>lighter
>faster so easier to hit targets
>less drop

.308 just icepicks through humans and is only good if you want to hit something beyond 600m.

>>33612081
Too bad it's expensive and nonexistent at most ammo retailers.>>33612117

>>33612013
5.56/223. super plentiful in a wide variety of bullets, affordable, and the guns that shoot 5.56/223 are as equally plentiful and varied.
im also just shooting at dirt and paper within 200 yards.

>>33612117
Most engagements wouldn't happen that far anyway, especially as civilians. Heck, even law enforcement wouldn't be that far.

>>33612117

> .308 is only good in a situation the alternative cannot do

OK sounds like ithe exceeds the competitor.

Also....tumbling, fragmentingredients, and wound size are all velocity dependant and each benefit has different velocity factors.

>>33612013
I prefer 5.56/.223 AR since LE, Military, and civvies have made it the primary weapon of the USA.

>SHTF
>Still able to feed and maintain gun

>>33612150
>more expensive
>heavier bullets
>heavier rifle
>less plentiful

>>33612013
308 all day
it is scientifically proven that everyone can survive .223 bullets with ease
https://youtu.be/Dr7dpEDNNC4

>>33612150
>can't be converted to rimfire .22 as an emergency/small game alternative

.308 better barrier penetration, much better effective range And muh knockdown power

>>33612186
>asks to be shot to prove a point

>>33612195
For most practical applications as a civilian, especially in homes and urban environments, wouldn't one want LESS barrier penetration?

And 5.56/.223 will go through several 2x4's, so drywall and vinyl isn't an issue.

>>33612221
You can't just have one tool in your toolbox.

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>>33612013
762xAnything is more fun than any common 22 caliber. 30cal send mud & non-paper targets flying a lot better. That's all the reason I need to pick 30cal every time.
All common cartridges work almost identically as far as my basic ability to hit the ~14" steel plates I have placed at 400 yards.
Within 100 yards, 556/223 xm193 equivalents melt through my steel while it laughs off anything else in pic related. Annoying to be honest, and another reason I don't like 556 as much for regular shooting.

Bolt action in .308 and an AR in .223.

I just can't seem to get back on target as quickly with a 16" .308 semi as I can the .223 from shooting offhand at 25y.

>>33612230
That's why you have a 12ga and a sidearm, also.

>>33612259
Follow up shots are important. I wouldn't use a bolt action for close up though

>>33612242
I like being able to move my rear sight up some clicks and in 30 seconds of swapping components I'm ready to hunt squirrels or other small game. A .308 can't do that without sending bits and pieces flying.

>>33612230
A multi-tool is nice, though. I only need one can on the gun for .22lr/5.56/.223

Come on, hearing protection act!

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>>33612297
I have guns in 177/22 just for those jobs. Plenty of power and no worries about bullets landing on anybody a ways away.
I guess I never pull out a big rifle with the intention of shooting live critters. Although I've taken pigeons and other birds with the 3 russian calibers. Usually, no huge tissue destruction with fmj.

>>33612281
Nah, just a light weight rifle for taking the odd game past 100y, maybe for convincing someone to turn their truck around and head back down the dirt road to my place.

>>33612323
The conversion kit is nice because it's light, accurate, and reliable. Everyone hears or reads something online and repeats it like gospel without any personal experience.

>>33612326
I mean, anything kicking up dirt around a vehicle would convince me that I clearly made a wrong turn.

Let's talk SHTF
>some disaster happens
>need to rely on personal stockpile
>need to scavenge eventually
>ask yourself what you would actually find

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>>33612323

>>33612013
5MMBR or .270 or 243 actually or if bigger 338

Why you list mil cals only

.270 lovely lat shooting lethality
.243 lovely tac driver
.222 very accurate
.22-50
.338 long range king
30-06 black tip AP
.303

Handgun and rifle
.22 sub silent
.45 sub silent

Handgun
44 mag soft vest hurts
.38
..357
.36 and .44 BP cap and ball.

Historical
.577
.69 musket 1777
75 caliber bess (also takes .69)

Shotgun
12 gauge

Lovely gunz
7.5×54mm French
7.5×55mm Swiss
7.92×57mm mauser
8mm Lebel
8mm
11.0 mm gras
.577/450 Martini–Henry


Calibers I hate
9mm
.380
Supersonic .22LR
5.56 (yes I know)
Win Mag 300 (and I owned one for a long time)
7mm Mag

>>33612359
>>33612394
Good stuff, I was about to ask exactly what you meant about the conversion kit.
A cousin of mine has a mp22-15 or whatever, love that thing personally. I'm guessing it'd be very similar feeling.

>>33612326
You'd be able to take most game with 5.56/.223 out to at least 300 yards. It retains it's energy well.

>>33612400
I was trying to debate the most common AR calibers and their applications

>>33612413
Absolutely no recoil. I have the CMMG Bravo conversion. 1" groups at 25 yards. More than adequate for small game.

>>33612379
>what you would actually find
Absolutely nothing, or very little most likely.
Also, you'd go through ammo stupid slow in SHTF anyway. Some fantasy firefight that eats up a bunch of ammo is extremely unlikely. The most likely scenario is that someone just ambush kills you with a single shot, or you do the same to someone else, or the occasional hunting.

>>33612400
>I only shoot pistols with wheels

>>33612443
>IF YOU WERE TO FIND AMMO, WHAT WOULD IT LIKELY BE
You could always trade with friends, too

>>33612379
>Let's talk SHTF
>>some disaster happens
>>need to rely on personal stockpile
>>need to scavenge eventually
>>ask yourself what you would actually find


Learn to cast bullets, learn to make BP and primer (andersons or from toy caps or matches), earn to reload primer. Realise any gun can be reloaded wit BP if you don;t leave air gaps. Lean to load shotgun shells, learn how to load percussion and flinters. It is all fun. I cant think of any scenario I would not get a shotgun loaded in. You can even reload rimfires

Off you go. If you care about this shtf crap the you should lean this stuff. I don;t I think it is nonsense but just like hobbying

>>33612458
There are dies online that swedge a .22lr casing into a .223 jacket. I've also read loads for a heavy .22lr jacketed bullet loaded light in a .223 casing.

>>33612457
Well, considering I have nearly 20krds stockpiled...
I guess I'd maybe only use a few hundred max a year anyway.
And shtf won't hit overnight, it'll be a slow transition and nobody's just going to run out shooting everyone and fulfilling /k/ fantasies.
Life will just get tougher and people with cozy jobs or living in cities are going to get a rude awakening. Chances are, there'll be time to adapt to changing conditions though.

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The area I live in is Fuddsville USA so .308 is gonna be a lot more common. The stores around here barely stock .223
It still pisses me off
"5.56 is a weak round mean tah wound!"
"You can't hunt with a assault weapon, it'll cut the deer in half!"
Like, every single time without fail. Grade fucking A'.

>>33612488
There are a lot of /out/ists that will be bumblefucking around the woods that will likely be fulfilling every one of those fantasies

>>33612510
I am so sorry

>>33612527
I'm sure they'd like to think so, but they won't be.
When it boils down, there's almost nothing but disadvantages to being a loner vs cooperating within your community.
Like I said, it's not going to happen overnight either. There'll be time to adjust to it.

>>33612445
>>I only shoot pistols with wheels

No, I like 1911s and owned one and also Walther target pistols in 22 and plan on getting another and woodsmans which I loved and fucked up and sold.

I do like wheel guns though certainly, particularly single actions.

>>33612560
Making soap and growing your own food are great things to know. There are lots of services to be traded, too. For example, barbering is something everyone needs and not everyone is good at, especially with scissors.

>>33612560
A big comcern is loss of power. Perishables will be utterly gone unless you have access to your own livestock.

>>33612597
That's also quite dependent on the season in which it goes out for me.
In the winter, that'd be less of a problem.

Why would I need 9mm and .223?

>>33612597
That is why many on farms learned canning. You can have cooked ground beef ready to go in a jar for 3-5 years.

You do the same with Veggies, fruits and uncooked meat. Powdered milk, egg & butter has a shelf life of 5-25 years.

>>33612117
.308 can have trick ass frag bullets, it's just not as common because it's not as necessary for an adult sized rifle cartridge.

>>33612635
Those sound impractical, expensive, rare, and possibly illegal.

>>33612635
Seriously? I had no idea stuff lasted that long. I'm definitely taking up jarring.

How do you make powdered eggs/milk?

>>33612635

Ahem

.270 Winchester, HP, 130 Grain,
Sierra HP .270 Caliber (.277) 90 gr. HP
Sirra .270 Caliber (.277) 140 gr. HPBT
3200-3400 fps with the Win .270, 110-130 grains lead free will wax though a plate
etc etc

Hm. I wonder how dum-dum .308 rounds would look like on target?

>>33612704
>Those sound impractical, expensive, rare, and possibly illegal.

.270 Winchester, HP, 130 Grain

>>33612719
Meant to say that here>>33612628

>>33612726
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0WE3GhPpZY

Legal AP.

.270 da king

>>33612769
>have to order all my ammo online

put two men out in the open one with a 270 the other with a .223.

I know which I'd rather have. Call me gramps

>>33612769
Yeah it's a really good cartridge. Too bad it doesn't have the tactical/military loadings that a lot of other cartridges get.

>>33612783
>>have to order all my ammo online

I'm a reloader, the sierras are bullets.

Ahem.

You lads are real funny

>>33612789
Is there a .270 AR?

>>33612810
Not that I know of in .270 winchester. It's necked down 30-06 so it's long as fuck for an ar style rifle

>>33612013
>>33612013
>>33612013
probably 308 because realistically you arent going to be in firefights, much less close range ones, and you will want a bigger bullet for hunting.

why not both? the ar15 is light enough to bring along as a secondary for close range defense and a light bolt action in 308 will serve almost all your needs

ideally youd want a shotgun for small game too though. this is why you would want team members. the fantasy of ranging the post SHTF world alone is retarded video game nonsense

>>33612789
>tactical/military loadings

LOL like what

You can buy legally a brass lead free that will go though an AR500 plate and a huge variety of HPs and boat tails

What am I missing? I don;t need tracer and the mil hardly use it these days anyhow do they since IR lasers unless they are working with savages I guess or maybe on belt fed suppression. It use be used for sighting on recoil less rifles but I doubt that is done anymore

>>33612795
>I can't order my ammo so I have to make it with things I buy online

Nothing against reloading. It's just not a very common caliber compared to the alternatives. Casting lead for high powered rifles isn't a good idea, either

>>33612837
A balanced team is a good idea.

>>33612844
Are they making heaver, high BC bullets for the .270 now?

Last time I looked, which was a while ago, there wasn't nearly the selection of bullets for .270 as there was for 7mm and 7.62. But maybe that's changed.

>>33612117
>.308 just icepicks through humans and is only good if you want to hit something beyond 600m.
spotted the teenager talking out his ass with zero life experience. fucking millenials i swear

>>33612810
>Is there a .270 AR?

It is more a bolt gun thing

>>33612874
It is true that you want something that will put a lot of energy into the target. 5.56 was not designed to wound.

>>33612857
>t's just not a very common caliber compared to the alternatives.

Its the most common deer hunting cartridge in the wold and has been fierce popular everywhere or that. I'd bet most of the old boys in the states shoot it.

>>33612876
It would be nice. Imagine a 7.62x54r AR

>>33612906
It may be the most common deer hunting caliber, but it isn't a common caliber overall.

>>33612857
>Nothing against reloading. It's just not a very common caliber compared to the alternatives. Casting lead for high powered rifles isn't a good idea, either

Loads of people cast for .270

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>>33612906
>>33612929
>deer hunting caliber

>>33612873
>Are they making heaver, high BC bullets for the .270 now?

I'm a sierra fan

Here
https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/bullets/rifle.cfm/caliberID/7

>>33612954
Doesn't it melt lead all in the rifling?

>>33612964
If I caught someone shooting a deer with a ,22 I'd kick the crap out of him

>>33612897

you realize 308 is available in bullets other than standard 150 grain FMJ right? you can easily find explosive polymer tipped varmint loads that will fragment and disintegrate on impact

>>33612979
https://youtu.be/VW2C3exp0R4

>>33612964

Bad .22 at that HV copper washed bollix

>>33612993
>CCI Mini Mag JHP
>The ultimate deer round

>>33612985
>.270 rounds that won't overpenetrate and will actually expand in game
Link?

>>33612970
See, the heaviest one they make is 150gr. with a sectional density of .279

In 7mm and .308 you can get way heavier bullets. If anything is holding .270 win back it's that.

>>33612081
>meme round

Piss off along with the .300blkout, 6.8spc, etc.

>>33612972
>Doesn't it melt lead all in the rifling?

You don;t cast .270 with soft lead anon, you need a stiffer mix more like wheel weight you know with tin Pure soft lead is best for slower BP like cap and ball where it woks great t make a very nasty ball. If I were casting for any HV it can't be soft lead.

Did you ever cast toy soldiers as a kid?

>>33613032
Tacticool

I'm all about .308 and 12ga

>cheap-ish
>perfect amount of bang and recoil to feel like you're shooting an actual firearm but still comfy to shoot
>available everywhere

>>33613036
No. I'm relatively new to the reloading scene.

So is it possible to cast .224 without ruining my barrel?

>>33612992
It's stupid unethical, cruel disrespectful and scumbaggy to shoot a deer with a 22 anon. I have my view you cleanly have another.

Just because you *can* try something does not mean you *should* try something and fuck all from youtube will change my mind. leaving off wounded deer with a 22 in them is a more likely result and a savage cruel one.

>>33612992
I've seen .22s ricochet of dried timber from semi auto rifles and there is no way in hell they would penetrate a deer skull at 50M

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>>33613053

>>33613012
>>CCI Mini Mag JHP
>>The ultimate deer round

Ah you are just playing

They are inaccurate. You're just pretending I get it. Don;t go off mutilating animals because you get drunk on your own farts tho.

>>33613030
You aren't going to be shooting anything heavier than 168gr in .308 (SD .25) or 150gr 7mm-08 (SD .26) at anywhere near the same velocity as a 150gr .270, i.e. 2800fps. The heavier .308 drop by a good 100fps.

If you want to shoot at 2800fps, the .270 has the best SD of any of those bullets, and damn if that doesn't make me interested in .270.

>>33613030
>See, the heaviest one they make is 150gr. with a sectional density of .279
>In 7mm and .308 you can get way heavier bullets. If anything is holding .270 win back it's that.


Going at over 3000fps it already delivers a fuck ton of energy at 140

>>33613072
Pound for pound, .22lr is the most devastating caliber

>>33613056
>No. I'm relatively new to the reloading scene.
>So is it possible to cast .224 without ruining my barrel?

That is the hottest load and shortest barrel life out there anon. Stop baiting me. Next you will be on .220 swift

>>33613086
Obviously I wouldn't use a .22lr on a deer. .223 would do it, though. If only Ohio let us hunt with it.

>>33613105
>chrome lined bore and chamber

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>all this shitting in .308

pretty sure .308 will leave a softball sized exit wound in addition to putting you on your ass, ripping easier through cover or armor and making a massive instantaneous cavity.

>>33613045
Are implying that the 7.62 REAL FUCKING NATO is a tacticool round?

>>33613072
>I've seen .22s ricochet of dried timber from semi auto rifles and there is no way in hell they would penetrate a deer skull at 50M

Aw fuck off lad. I would not even shoot a fox with it. I love it, love it more sub and silenced, love it even more sub and silenced with NV and a laser illumination *rabbits eyes will stand out like cats eyes on a road center, same with rats) and of course people but it has its uses and you need to remember you are shooting at living things and not be causing them pain for no reason,

>>33613028
308 is not 270

>>33612122
Steel case 6.5 gren is 23 cents a shot at most online retailers.

Brass is about $.80 a shot for some reason.

>>33613121
>.308

>>33613089
>if that doesn't make me interested in .270.


Its a great round and flat shooting so your scope gives you lots of range to use it.

If I had a shitload on hand and/or good outside availability, I'd rather have 7.62 RFN. You can do a lot more with that caliber.

But for the most part, I'd have to stick with 5.56 realistically. Would be easier to find in shtf, lighter/easier to carry more rounds. Good enough for hunting medium game.

>>33613124
It's got it's uses but it's only got it's uses. It isn't a multipurpose round like 5.56

>>33613121
>>all this shitting in .308
>pretty sure .308 will leave a softball sized exit wound in addition to putting you on your ass, ripping easier through cover or armor and making a massive instantaneous cavity.


I saw one hit a guy in the torso and the blood splat went back about 4 feet and he was dead.

It was like a fucking special effect in a slasher movie.

>>33613141
>.22 (L)ET'S (R)OCK

>>33613144
>.308 rounds that won't overpenetrate and will actually expand in game
FTFY

>>33613163
>I'd have to stick with 5.56 realistically. Would be easier to find in shtf, lighter/easier to carry more rounds.


Seems o have come from nowhere to be massive in the states. I don;t think it was that popular 20 year ago even though it had already been around for decades

>>33613146
>online

>>33613183
>>.22 (L)ET'S (R)OCK

kek

>>33613163
I agree on the 5.56

>>33613181
>You can't use a .50 on infantry
>You don't even have to hit them
>The shockwave of the bullet passing would rip their arm off

>>33613202
There was a lot of controversy with the AR prototypes. It got a lot of people killed.

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>Bbbbut the 5.56 and 5.45 punch through steel better than larger bullets because of superior speed!!!!!!

It is getting very annoying that people keep parroting this. Yes, if you compare ball 5.56 and 5.45 against ball 7.62Nato, they will penetrate steel better. Ball ammo is just led or soft steel core and the higher velocity .222 and .223 rounds of smaller diameter will have better pure penetration against steel.

However the people stating this "speed kills" fact, are always forgetting that the larger full size rounds will always have vastly better performance against things like concrete, wood, glass etc. As well as superior long range terminal ballistics. And guess what? The only time that the smaller and faster intermediate rounds penetrate better than the .30 cal rounds, is when comparing ball ammo. If you took the ap variants of these three cartridges (fourth if you want to include the extremely common 7.62x54r) the larger .30 cal rounds will eat through steel much more than their smaller competition.

TL,DR: Cartridges like the 7.62NATO and 7.62x54r, are much more versatile and give their wielders much more room for error.

>>33613155
Someone mentioned Henry might put out their HLR in .270, so I might wait and see now.

Can you download the caliber to make it comfortable for youth shooting in a 7lbs rifle? I was looking at the .243 for that, but .270 sounds like a better option for predators and deer.

>>33613250
Penetration isn't everything

>>33613236
>>You can't use a .50 on infantry
>>You don't even have to hit them
>>The shockwave of the bullet passing would rip their arm off

telling the truth anon it was like someone attache a high pressure blood hose to his back and opened it and that was a .308 literally a plume of blood nearly as long as the guy was tall.

.50s shred people ask a veteran. 308s bunch a hole and kill them near instant though. I've never seen the consequence of a 5.56 but a 7,62 hitting square n a limb take a lot of it and will blow the bones.

>>33613253
>Someone mentioned Henry might put out their HLR in .270, so I might wait and see now.

Ah it belongs in a bolt action like 3030 belongs in a lever gun

>>33613296
Most experts agree that caliber is largely irrelevant, and that shot placement is the true factor. Most firearm related homicides are committed with .22lr

>>33613305
If Savage could get .284 Win out of a Model 99, I'd take a .270 out of a Henry.

>>33613281
I know. And with the exception of weight, the .30 cal rounds are superior in everything else. And with lighter bullets, better in velocity.

>>33613324
Except, you know, actual weight. And the inability to do other things. My rifle is my .22lr also.

>>33613314
>Most experts agree that caliber is largely irrelevant, and that shot placement is the true factor. Most firearm related homicides are committed with .22lr

well I'd rather have distance and something bigger like a 270 but each to their own. There are people paid in the military to figure these things out and you take what you are given and if you were smarter than them then you would be the one off making the choices and they would be the ones using it. I'm more preferential to slr and 303s and 270s and that kind of thing.

Anyhow since I'm not shooting people and don;t really plan to I'd hav to ay beyond the utility of .22 I'd tak a bolt .270, a 44mag revolver and a 12 gauge semi super mag with regular 2' cartridges for three guns

>>33613365
>regular 2' cartridges for three guns

3'

typo

>>33613365
They do figure those things out. That's why the military uses 5.56 as their primary infantry caliber. Negligible recoil, lightweight so soldiers can carry more, accurate where point of aim is point of impact out to 250 meters.

>>33612013
You guys will laugh at me

I live in Illinois near Chicago, it is very difficult to find 5.56 so I switched to 5.45 x 39 mm in a Saiga. I found out I really liked it. It is a great caliber. If I could do it again, I would probably get a 5.56 AK as I am now a trained on the platform. If I didn't live in an autism state, I'd probably have stuck with my AR.

Note: We were only able to buy ammo online two years ago due retarded regulations

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>>33613314
>shot placement

That's important, but try pulling off good shot placement in a high stress situation and at a target moving quickly or firing back or ducking in and out of cover, etc etc etc. The larger .30cal rounds will be more effective than smaller rounds if both were to hit a "non-vital" area, ie, an extremity, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I greatly respect the 5.45 and the very sexy and new M855A1 for the 5.56 as well as its fantastic pure AP M995 round. Also the advantages of carrying lighter rounds and thus more ammo and the better contolibility of smaller rounds, is greatly appreciated and very noice indeed.

It's just that until the next evolution in small arms technology, I will always prefer the bigger rounds.

>>33613379
The ' means feet, " means inches

>>33613418
I know

I fucked up because my dog is trying to climb on me and be a hat. I keep telling him he is not suited to being a hat but he keeps trying.

>>33613408
That's not stupid. It's what you have access to, which is why I defend the 5.56/.223 so much. It's the primary weapon of law enforcement and military, and it's the most popular with civilians. More likely than not, I will always be able to get ammo. Plus, .22lr conversion kit lets me shoot yet another versatile round.

>>33613409
.30 cal is more difficult with follow up shots with adrenaline flowing and moving.

>>33613444
He could be one day

>>33613323
You typed 5.56 wrong

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>LOOK AT MK. 262 BALLISTIC CHARTS AND GEL RESULTS
>5.56 HAS PLENTY OF STOPPING POWER WITH THE RIGHT LOAD
>IT DOESNT MATTER THAT I ONLY SHOOT FMJ TULA

5.56 fags everyone

>>33613542
Federal 5.56 and Perfecta .223

>>33613555
American Eagle 5.56

>>33613542
>7.62 ANYTHING IS THE BEST ROUND FOR EVERYTHING

>>33613542
Even 55gr Tula will reliably fragment within 50yds from a 16" barrel.

>>33613398
>impact out to 250 meters.

You need more amd the thing about 308 and 270 is you just have to aim the targets height above his neck at 500 yards to nail him

I was looking up 5.56 and aside from more shit with wind it is dropping like a crossbow bold and plunging while it is carrying about the same energy as a 22 (bit more not much)

the you first see the enemy rule is kinda gone with cheap optics and thermals

even low end mil thermals from a while back will easily see at 500M and optics allow ident

>>33612013
>SHTF
>Alone with AR-15
>Successfully utilize surplus of mil spec components
>Repopulate the earth

>>33613483
>He could be one day

I would cry every time I saw it if he ever were so that won't be. Men are allowed cry about dead their dead dogs, horses and kids if no one sees. It is in Gods rule book.

>>33613603
I won't use it for most purposes, but I would if I had to and I know it'd get the job done.

>>33613605
Dialed in at 25 meters, it will be 2.5" high out to 150m and 2.5" low at 250m

Marines sight theirs in for 300 yards

>>33613619
>>Alone with AR-15
>>33613619
>>Repopulate the earth


Stop fucking your rifle son.

>>33613632
Makes me wonder why human beings are the only living things in Creation that cry

>>33613633
It's more a question of the 1-2% failure rate on the primers being a problem.

I'd bet Tula 55gr would still fragment most of the time at 75-80yds. However Wolf gold extends that to about 100yds, and both the primers and fragmentation will be more reliable

>>33613647
Jealous

>>33613202

20 years ago we were still in AWB in the states, that probably had something to do with it not being as popular.

It ended in 2004, gun grabbing went back on the agenda, especially after Newtown. People started buying AR15's like crazy. I think that is what has led to the proliferation of 5.56 rifles over the last five years

>>33613664
I have experienced failure to feed and eject issues with it, along with split casings. I wouldn't depend on it in a situation where every squeeze needs to be a bang.

>>33613679
Tula, or Wolf gold?

>>33613641
>Dialed in at 25 meters, it will be 2.5" high out to 150m and 2.5" low at 250m
>Marines sight theirs in for 300 yards


5,56mm 55 gr FMJBT M193 Ball for 20” Bbl, M16A2
500 1429 +23.8 -60.7 0.7 4.5 12

5,56mm 62 gr FMJBT M855 Ball for 20” Bbl, M16A2
500 1740 +19.8 -52.4 0.7 4.5 10.5

.223 69 gr HPBT Match for 24” Bbl
500 1668 +21.3 -56.4 0.7 4 11.25

etc

Thats not a whole ton of spark in joules

heres the rub look how much it has dived by 600

5,56mm 55 gr FMJBT M193 Ball for 20” Bbl, M16A2
600 1221 +42.4 -107.7 0.9 6 18
5,56mm 62 gr FMJBT M855 Ball for 20” Bbl, M16A2
600 1527 +33.1 -88.6 0.8 5.5 14.75

so you better be sweet with wind and range or you are fucked and even if it his its not going to put him down and out

>>33613667
Whatever the reasoning, the AR-15 has become a symbol of our second amendment and freedom. It's the modern-day musket.

>>33613690
Tula

>>33613679
Much of the time this is under powered ammo, mixed with a dry, gritty, or new rifle. Wearing things in, appropriate buffer weight, and lube helps.

>>33612122
really? i see it all the time at academy sports.

>>33613694
Shot placement.

And I'm not shooting anyone at that range. Even if SHTF, every shot down range will be answered for.

>>33613654
>Makes me wonder why human beings are the only living things in Creation that cry

They are not

I have seen both dogs and horses cry with sorrow. A dog who had not seen ahuman it loved in nearky 10 years, tears rolling down its cheeks and a horse whos companion it had been in a field with for years died and when the forks on the tractor lifted the dead one to move it to a pit it let out a shriek and there were tears pouring down its face.

>>33613713
>academy sports
>not Walmart

>>33613709
How often? I've shot a bunch of it, and have noticed that problems seem to be batch specific, along with it being generally under powered and having semi-reliable ignition. If you tune your guns around reliability it's usually not a problem.

>>33613734
Really? That's interesting and sad

>>33613753
If the problems are bat related then likely I got a bad batch. I haven't gone back because of it.

>>33613720
>Shot placement.
>And I'm not shooting anyone at that range. Even if SHTF, every shot down range will be answered for.

Rather you than me.Its dropping 20-40 inches in that 100 yards between 500 and 600 which is more they enough for a miss. If you are out by much in ranging ut or the enemy is moving towards or away from you, which they will be.


Nah I;d say with the availability of thermal and optics the brains will move back to a heavy flatter round but keep it as small as possible.

>>33613696
>Whatever the reasoning, the AR-15 has become a symbol of our second amendment and freedom. It's the modern-day musket.

Thats a recent thing since that fuckwit clinton and his assaulty weapon thingy,

>>33613772
In What scenario are you going to be picking someone off at that range? How did they even pose a threat to you at that point?

>>33613758
Cows will make sad vocalizations if their calf dies. They don't cry literal tears, but they'll "cry" out in anguish, with all sorts of mournful bellering

>>33613778
I'm 23 so it's been all my life that I've seen it.

>>33613758
>Really? That's interesting and sad

Horses are dumb as buck but they are big hearted when they get attached. Cattle are smarter than them.

Dogs can be very smart. I was reading this boo called the genius of dogs and the writer makes the point they are about the smartest of all animals when it comes to communicating.

>>33613778

I think the "modern musket" thing goes less further back, to 2012, in Obama's second term, during the AWB 2.0 scare. That's when that whole thing really took off.

>>33613815
Horses and dogs are both social creatures

>>33613789
>In What scenario are you going to be picking someone off at that range? How did they even pose a threat to you at that point?

They don't

That is what is so grand about it and with 10-40 scopes ad 60mm lenses on spotting scopes and thermals they are as easy to spot and ident know as used be the case with seeing someone moving with bare eyes up to 300. That's my point.

>>33613829
When did the whole "don't tread on me" and the spartan MOAN AABE thing start?

>>33613845
So you're not advocating killing unaware Americans in a disaster at extreme ranges?

>>33613849
>When did the whole "don't tread on me" and the spartan MOAN AABE thing start?

Ah the militia thing to my mind came about because the commies collapsed. All the survivalist types waiting to fight russian paratroopers needed a new cause. Waco gave it to them

That belongs on pol not here except there is full of fucking russians.

>>33613860
>So you're not advocating killing unaware Americans in a disaster at extreme ranges?

No I was talking about warfighting with small arms which is what mil spec munitions is for. I'm not into the shooting people for the hello of it thing at all.

>>33613895
Just making sure. I was speaking of natural/manmade disaster scenarios here in the US, like Katrina

>>33613871
I notice that a lot of boards cross over with topics. Pol, Out, and K are three big ones.

>>33613911
>Just making sure. I was speaking of natural/manmade disaster scenarios here in the US, like Katrina


Things have chained when I was a kid I could walk to to a trespasser carrying a shotgun with a gun and just ask him to leave. Now it would be like the end of the good the bad and the ugly I suppose. People are too trigger happy, even cops it seems.

>>33613926
>I notice that a lot of boards cross over with topics. Pol, Out, and K are three big ones.

Out is more hippies, pol is russians spouting, here is the best of it.

>>33613964
This is my favorite board, for sure

>>33613952
It makes me wonder how things would go if something major were to happen. People are largely immoral nowadays, and don't seem to value human life.

>>33612013

>Which do you prefer

.308

>Advantages/disadvantages

It's generally more useful as a civilian cartridge as it can be used to kill anything that moves reasonably well short of some big game. It's excellent against armor given the proper ammunition. And it retains energy better at extended ranges. It should be noted however, that .308 is not as weight efficient as 5.56 and has a somewhat slower projectile velocity.

>Platform preference

Any semi auto rifle will do, however I find the SCAR 17s to be ideal.

>>33614009
The SCAR is expensive though. I shot a Tavor and hated it. Too short, bullpup threw me off, and I hate having my hand so close to the muzzle.

>>33613985

Random interesting fat I was looking for the etiiology origin of trigger happy and found this

"device by means of which a catch or spring is released and a mechanism set in action," 1650s, earlier tricker (1620s), from Dutch trekker "trigger," from trekken "to pull" (see trek). Tricker was the usual form in English until c. 1750. Trigger-happy is attested from 1942.

So trigger happy comes into use in 1942. I wonder what the guy who wrote on killing would make of that?

>>33614050

I've shot a few before and I liked it enough to convince me that saving up for it would be worth it.

>>33613849
Probably around the same time autism diagnoses started going up.

>>33614007
>It makes me wonder how things would go if something major were to happen. People are largely immoral nowadays, and don't seem to value human life.

There is a big fire first fire to kill, round in the chamber culture now. The steps that were dissuades to lethal force like a shotgun being racked or a slide released or a warning shot are gone and it is straight to kill. I don;t know how I feel about it. Trainers have a lot to answer for making this stuff doctrine. Most situations are not calmed by raising a muzzle. The presence of the firearm in the first place should be enough to get it to a point where talking can calm it

If a cop pointed a gun at me without cause I would not have real control. I'd loose it and have to kill him, if he never pointed it and just told me what he wanted I'd be fine. As far as I'm concerned if someone points a gun at me they are going to kill me and I'm not stopping to think about it more.

>>33612151
This.

Plentiful spare parts/ammo.

>>33614060
Interesting.

>>33614206
It's simple logic, to me.

>>33614129
You can't fire warning shots or point a muzzle. Both are felonies.

>>33612314
The requirements for a rimfire suppressor are very different from a centerfire rifle suppressor. I'd want different cans for rimfire and 5.56

>>33614243
>You can't fire warning shots or point a muzzle. Both are felonies.

The law is an ass ad every time I see cops on the news these days dealing with unarmed people they have muzzles up. Its outs. Don't get me wrong I support law enforcement and leave them in a hamper every Christmas time but this business of sticking a gun up when your are faced with non lethal idiocy is just wrong. What happened to nightsticks?

>>33614353
>The requirements for a rimfire suppressor are very different from a centerfire rifle suppressor. I'd want different cans for rimfire and 5.56

Not that different

If you are doing 60 grain 50 grain subs from a .223 a .22 silencer would manage that fine. The physics is the same really

>>33614353
I wouldn't mind shooting a .2lr through a 5.56 can

>>33614386
Yeah, it's dumb. I don't want to kill anyone, but I do want to neutralize the threat. Making someone choose to leave is better than killing them.

>>33614437

Hang on now

You'll be shooting subsonic in both

A 22lr will be like 40 grains
A 5.56 will be maybe a few grain more, not much and the same speed

Same silencer works on both same thread. Why not?

>>33614458
Exactly. Why is this not feasible?

>>33612726
your Ahem got my attention - lol

>>33614453
>Yeah, it's dumb. I don't want to kill anyone, but I do want to neutralize the threat. Making someone choose to leave is better than killing them.

Laywers are a fucking curse. They make the world slowly shittier each day so they can profit from the mess. You stop and help someone who is in medical trouble you can now be sued unless your qualifications are up to date. Insanity.

>>33614479
>Exactly. Why is this not feasible?

It is that's my point you don't need a different silencer for center fire if you are using it properly

>>33613647
Look at it this way, should he fuck his rifle enough to repopulate the earth somehow it would be an entire society in the Murder/k/ubes image!

>>33612013
.308 innawoods
5.56 outtawoods

Innawoods the .308 will take larger game up to small bear and elk in my area and should be capable at longer ranges than the .223.

If I'm in a city, .223 will probably not only be lighter and more controllable for follow-up shots but also has a highly standardized and common m193 spec that (should) be able to be used without re-zeroing between different manufacturers, sources, or lots. Logistics!

>>33614479
>Exactly. Why is this not feasible?

what is difficult is subsonic loads on bigger calibres

A lot of them are right on the line of dangerous.

>>33613181
>I saw one hit a guy in the torso and the blood splat went back about 4 feet and he was dead.
which Call of Duty game was this?

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>>33612810
kind of....

>>33614483
The big reset is coming.

>>33614504
>Look at it this way, should he fuck his rifle enough to repopulate the earth somehow it would be an entire society in the Murder/k/ubes image!


It would be a new form of mud test as well.

Which would survive the frenzied attack more an AK or an AR

Reports from nam tell us charlie used gangbang their Aks nightly like a pack of dogs on a bitchand they would never fail to fire where as amarine rips out a quick one with this M16 combined with a gentle kiss goodnight and it jams.


AKs are whores that's the lesson.

>>33614500
I'd still get a 5.56 suppressor though just to be safe, and fire .22lr out of that

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>>33612117
>.308 just icepicks through humans and is only good if you want to hit something beyond 600m
>implying .308 doesn't tumble or shred people
>implying .223 77 grain shot from a 20 inch barrel isn't going to fuck someone's shit at 600m

>.308
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDkO7BXX3WM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8qARx9Xg1c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVgfohZexjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE9xjUVcszs

>.223
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8o9c3jWNc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T86Du1ZcT2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tI6kkCKRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSJWibX65kk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1bS9eWHFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1bS9eWHFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KuOmVqKoEk

That said, .223 and .308 is a versatile round.

>>33614521
>>I saw one hit a guy in the torso and the blood splat went back about 4 feet and he was dead.
>which Call of Duty game was this?

And fuck you too sonny jim.

>>33614519
But a .22lr through a 5.56 suppressor is fine.

>>33614560
>I'd still get a 5.56 suppressor though just to be safe, and fire .22lr out of that

sounds a bit snake oiley that someone is telling you that you need a different one at all. Pretty pointless shooting HV out of a silencer, they just overheat and the baffle springs go to shit. I've even seen one go on fire.

>>33614600
I'm not saying I would get two suppressors. I'm saying I'd feel safer shooting a .22lr through a 5.56 suppressor than I would shooting a 5.56 through a .22lr suppressor.

>>33612081
6.5×50mmSR Arisaka

>>33614626
>I'm not saying I would get two suppressors. I'm saying I'd feel safer shooting a .22lr through a 5.56 suppressor than I would shooting a 5.56 through a .22lr suppressor.

Juts make sure you get one that you can open and clean then.

How about some pics of silencers and internals?

You want?

You do realize that there are people selling baffle stacks and springs for maglite tubes along with UNC thread caps all over the place on egay?

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>>33614716
Not yet. Waiting for the hearing protection act, then I'll consider making one from a flashlight

>>33613542
Who are you quoting?

>>33614789
>Not yet. Waiting for the hearing protection act, then I'll consider making one from a flashlight

I have a perfectly legally bought and held one.

I've had great results with it.

Here I took some picks.

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Sized by sheet of paper it is quite long I have had poor results from short models

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Cracked open, top scews off out comes the spring and baffles This allows cleaning don;t buy a 'self cleaning' silencer or one with non metallic internal components or you will have problems with effects o gun oil etc

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How to reassemble

spring in but not pushed in to seat so you get an idea how the baffles go on

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This is to illustrate the stack and how the baffles fit together

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The cap is recessed to the baffle curve

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The treading, I've used it a lot so there is some wear on the paint

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Business end

>>33614951
>>33614993
>>33615013
>>33615030
>>33615072
>>33615087
Cool. How much did it cost? (Minus the $200 NFA which you'll be refunded once the HPA goes through)

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neoprene shroud

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Business ends

I just shredded a shroud so this is my new winter grass one

>>33615142
I'm excited to get one someday.

>>33614823
I have no idea what he's going on about. No one here said anything like that.

>>33615101
>Cool. How much did it cost? (Minus the $200 NFA which you'll be refunded once the HPA goes through)


I'm not in the US and it was given to me by a gunstore owner who was thinking o stocking them. Usually well less that 200 dollars and they are about 100 wholesale..

Things I have learned

More baffles the better

Steel only

Clean it

Long is good

Non metallic innards hate pol anything that claims to be a wierd technology is snake oil

You can get ones with off centre if you really need one that are more pricey ( so the diameter dos not effect sighting on irons) but I have mostly scoped guns with red dots

Damn I feel like doing a series of pics on scopes now but I am done

Maybe tomorrow

Its a real pleasure to shoot with no ear protection as you can talk to a spotter

>>33615226
>Non metallic innards hate oil

Typo

>>33615226
Are they much louder than a .22lr out of a full length barrel?

Also, where are you from?

>>33612186
I'm no expert, but I believe I've found a troll.

>>33615159
>I'm excited to get one someday.

They are great fun

You really need a closed biolt gun and subsonics to get the full effect which on that one in the pics is sirst shot down to the trigger and bolt spring click if it is wet and with a shroud on

Wet work is an interesting expression

If you wet that silencer with a blast of oil then it will be silent completely for about 5 shots with a shround on. And by silent I mean quieter than Hollywood with subsonic in a closed bolt. I've seen someone who I told this to set one on fire because he had not cleaned it and thrown too much pil in. It only needs a quick blast

Thus the expression wet work.

Is 5.56 strong enough to take down feral hog? I'm a little preoccupied with handguns, so I don't have a 30 caliber hunting rifle yet.

>>33615308
>Are they much louder than a .22lr out of a full length barrel?
>Also, where are you from?


That wet and shrouded on subsonic 6mmBR and you can hear the pin click and the bullet hit the target and thats it. 6MMBR is the closest I shoot to 5.56. Same on .22LR with eley 40 grain HP subsonics

It is not comparable to a 22LR, there is NO noise a 22LR is quite loud really

It also acts to enhance accuracy and reduce group size and there is a good reason for that in relation to barrel harmonics

>>33615349
>Is 5.56 strong enough to take down feral hog? I'm a little preoccupied with handguns, so I don't have a 30 caliber hunting rifle yet.


I would not no. You need slugs or a 270. Slugs can be a good option if you are shooting in woodland.

Would a 3030 do it...that would be a good choice if it did in a lever gun

Pigs are powerful animals.

>>33615349
On a charge, no. From a distance where you put it 2" behind the ear? Yes.

>>33615462
>On a charge, no. From a distance where you put it 2" behind the ear? Yes.

You'll need a fast follow up shot to, they are quick

Have you ever shot the moving target 'running boar' at ranges, it is good practice? Its an international discipline I know it is shot in Australia, France and the UK so it must be in the states.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zq5wKcbRLY

>>33615528
> Have you ever shot the moving target 'running boar'

No, but that looks fun as hell.

I wouldn't take a .223 for that though. No way I'm not hitting the shoulder. .243 with bonded/monolithic bullet, or any larger caliber in a SGK for that.

>>33615528
> Those straight pulls

Obviously a moderately wealthy man's hobby then.

>>33615349
.22lr is enough for hogs, so 5.56 is more than enough

https://youtu.be/IjzpLN46nOo

>>33615396
It'll do it.

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https://youtu.be/IloNV6-Fc_U

>>33615771
Oh my goodness
This should be in schoolbooks instead of common core

>>33615563
Meh

>>33615771
Funny, but it belongs here

>>>/pol/

Still, hilarious

>>33615370
Nice. How do you apply the oil ?

>>33615888
Pressurized can, blast into it

>>33612013
7.62x39 all day

>>33615668
>.22lr is enough for hogs, so 5.56 is more than enough

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

5.56x45 NATO
IT IS FREEDOM
IN A CARTRIDGE

>>33615931
>inb4 ballistic coefficient

>>33615931
>7.62x39 all day

I'm crying now.

Please for the love of all that is gunz buy a bolt action in 270 and some glass.

>>33615932
.22LR is the most impressive caliber ever designed. It has passed the test of time and made it to another century, another millennia.

>>33615934
>IT IS FREEDOM
>IN A CARTRIDGE


Drops off sharply after moving 500 yards from home, and is effected by wind. So it is just like freedom really

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>>33615971
>>33615947
>>33615931

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>>33615990
O say can you see

>>33615990
>>33616011
I can't see that far, no. I also won't be shooting that far probably ever.

>>33615921
Through which end?

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>>33615994

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>>33615349
>preoccupied with handguns

>>33615981
>.22LR is the most impressive caliber ever designed. It has passed the test of time and made it to another century, another millennia.


Crafted by aliens to hunt man and was lost during the fall of Atlantis. rediscovered when alien visitors crash landed and need to trade for hex head bolts to replace their spaceship we now now 22lr was THE weapon of the intergalactic civil war where it was used to hunt entire planets (by hitting them in EXACTLY the right place to start resonating earthquakes)..Alien visitors exterminated the woolly mammoth with it and the real secret of the Nazi blitzkrieg was the hidden knowledge they were all actually armed with an early version of the ruger 10.22 a fact kept secret in the cias secret war files.

I;m going hunting rhinoserrous with one tomorrow at 300 yards. The mere sound of my cz 452 in 22lr and the animal will curl up and die from hydrospastic shock which bounces around in its genitals until it dies simultaneously with a massive fart an orgasm,.

A weapon of war a weapon of love the choice of warriors throughout time and space the .22lr

The most bullshitted about cartridge ever.

>>33616042
business end

>>33616061
kek

>>33616092
>>>/x/
Something tells me you've been here before, amigo.

>>33616111
What do you think of those solvent traps that are converted to suppressors?

>>33616092
Saved this post.

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>>33616092
I still wouldn't want to be shot with one.

>>33615771
Outstanding anon.

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>>33616092
Better get used to it. Lead free .22LR is all you'll ever be able to buy once the little commies in this upcoming generation take control.

>>33616219
Never Forgetti

>>33616082
Oh man please someone tell me they've got the Kolbiri 'Autism Pistol' variant from that thread saved somewhere.

>>33616143
>What do you think of those solvent traps that are converted to suppressors?

Dunno never heard of it. The maglite with baffles and a threaded end cap seems feasible. There is a lot of snake oil in and around silencers since they are effectively banned in the USA. The cone baffle design is it and the more baffles and longer the quieter. Anything based on short self cleaning super secret tech is bolloxology. It should be all metal components, you are loading it with hot gas, oil residue etc

>>33616173
>searches for spike bayonet
>finds a stapler-cum-22-pistol

>>33616347
The more you know

>>33616360
Isn't Google great?

>>33616320
Can you find the archived thread?

5.56 AR
Accurate, reliable, inexpensive, readily available

>>33616418
I just can't remember the name of the thread unfortunately.

>>33616173
>I still wouldn't want to be shot with one.

The battle cry of .22lr warriors through out the galaxy. Only those with a high mediclorean count understand the .22LR and can wield it in harmony with the bounces around the skull force. In the old days, before the galatic civil war the order of 10/22 kept peace and order in the galaxy, the 2LR was their weapon of choice, not clumsy like a Libyan AK, a weapon for a more civilized age. In battle the knights of the 22 would scream 'but you would not want to get shot with it' and when their enemies paused in complete confusion at the notion that they wanted to get shot with anything at all, then the knights of 22 would open up on them with those funny 10/22 banana clips and quickly within three days or so their enemies might die of internal bleeding. Or not. No one really knows. In those days the wielders of 22 force could direct using their minds a 22 at distance to impact the weakest part of the skull where the bullet would proceed to create interesting patterns in three dimensions carved out of brain via interior skull ricochet. A mighty weapon, a red weapon. The 22LR bringing order to the known universe. An killing elephants. It can do that to apparently.

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>>33616472
Topkek saved this one too.
Ballistics gel proves that .22lr has the potential to kill. And as previously stated, most firearm related homicides are committed with .22lr

>>33616221
>Better get used to it. Lead free .22LR is all you'll ever be able to buy once the little commies in this upcoming generation take control.


HA

I'll still have my three band enfield, ball mill and mold.

>>33616531
Only straight walled cartridges will be permitted to exist. Individuals will have to make due with the most powerful rounds ammunition manufacturers will be licensed to produce;
.22Mag +P+

>>33616518
>Topkek saved this one too.
>Ballistics gel proves that .22lr has the potential to kill. And as previously stated, most firearm related homicides are committed with .22lr


And even more homicides are committed with knives. This does not mean that knives are as lethal as center-fires or an appropriate choice for killing anything bigger than a planet. Like a nebula. or a rabbit.

>>33616558
Are you actually high?

>>33616558
Muh sharp stick

>>33616554
>Only straight walled cartridges will be permitted to exist. Individuals will have to make due with the most powerful rounds ammunition manufacturers will be licensed to produce;
>.22Mag +P+

So the martini Henry will be around. O goody maybe someone will start making decent brass for it. It has a nice selection of bayonets to making it an assault rifle. A 150 year old assault rifle. A MH can hit at 900 yards. Yummy. How about a snyder?

>>33616569
>Are you actually high?

No. I don't do drugs.

>>33616531
You'll have to rechamber that rifle in a .22LR, sir. We are a dainty civilized nation and have no need for high power rifles in our safe spaces. They are already safe, for there are no guns in them.

>>33616588
...only .22 caliber and below.
Dun dun dun

>>33616602
Good. That is very good.

>>33616604
>You'll have to rechamber that rifle in a .22LR, sir. We are a dainty civilized nation and have no need for high power rifles in our safe spaces. They are already safe, for there are no guns in them.

O no hofficer I am merely a harmless antiquarian and historian. Would you like to know about the battle of Gettysberg, or the awful wacist oppression of the British empire come right this way!

>>33616646
We have no use for such history. We will not teach our children anything of war or the awful things done in the past. The only way to ensure a peaceful tomorrow is to forget about the troubles of yesterday.

>>33616638
>Good. That is very good.

Guns or Drugs. Simple choice. They don't mix well, see Detroit , Columbia and Afghanistan.

>>33616677
Why would anyone choose the latter?

>>33616669
>We have no use for such history. We will not teach our children anything of war or the awful things done in the past. The only way to ensure a peaceful tomorrow is to forget about the troubles of yesterday.


Ah no we must have reminders of the terrible errors of the past in order not to repeat them This rifle was used to slaughter zulus, to destroy it is to destroy the memory of those victims. This three band was used to fight against evil slavers! We must remember the hoorors of the past so we cannot repeat them

Would you like me to visit as school and show these guns to secondary school children and show them how they work while we watch zulu?

>>33616694
>Why would anyone choose the latter?

Parasuicidal usually if it lasts beyond experimentation

>>33616711
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI

>>33616711
To destroy it is to destroy the memory of their murderers. We must forget the horrors of the past and destroy the instruments thereof. Only then can we focus on puppies and crayons, and live our life in never never land. Nothing bad can happen to us if we all just use our minds. We don't need guns to make bad people go away. We can close our eyes to do that.

https://youtu.be/nyE3xJNvKtg

>>33616725
That's sad. You have to have faith. Hope is needed for life.

>>33616749
Your right.

Excuse me while I go and get rid of my guns.

(sound of digging in back yard)

>>33616805
>That's sad. You have to have faith. Hope is needed for life.

I think that's it with opiate users and people who inject drugs. It is an act of self mutilation, common with the para suicidal. No one gets into injecting drugs like heroin or cocaine or meth because they want a long and prosperous life. The push it to the limit aspect. I've seen it in vets who get into opiates though pain relief but I think what is really going on is a wish not to have to deal with the fact they have to face being a civilian.

>>33616810
>If we ban guns, people will stop killing one another
>If we ban drugs, people will stop doing drugs
>Prohibition worked

>>33616855
They'd rather give up than do what it takes to live a prosperous life.

>>33616883
>They'd rather give up than do what it takes to live a prosperous life.

No subconsciously they would rather die so the suicidal behavior is expressed in self mutilation and risk taking and pushing e.g drugs to a limit.

They are not weak, they are mentally ill to start with. A lot of people experiment with drugs only some push it to self destruction.

I'm not sure prohibition would ever work as the ones that are a problem, the parasuicidals would just start e.g sniffing glue or become drunks, or drive drunk etc etc but they would find a way a their subconscious is screaming to die. Some vets entered the mil hoping for a glorious death internally and don't know what do do after