Army wants a new rifle? I'll just leave this here.

>>33607021
Adopt AR10's and call it a day. It worked for the Belgians in Africa just fine

>>33607049
Going backwards is not an option. What we really need is a new calibre.

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>>33607021
As soon as it comes out, they want to adopt the AK Alfa
>muh stopping power
>muh reliabilty
>muh modularity
>muh polymer

>The Army says it wants a heavier, longer-range bullet in the 7.62x51-millimeter weight category, from which it would later transition to an even more exotic, modern caliber.
>Down the road, the Army would rebarrel the rifle for a new round, according to SSD, likely a 6.5-millimeter bullet.
If that was the case, just go with .260 Rem right off the bat.

>>33607103
How is it reliable if they removed the ability to open it up in the field and shake out the dust?

>>33607103
>7.62x39
>shit tier furniture
>mememod
>open as fuck action

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HAPPENING, FINALLY

DIE 6.5 KOMMT

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>Everyone uses 5.56 because they want to get whatever the US army is using
>A lot of other branches and militaries have JUST finished getting new 5.56 rifles
>US army decides to go for new caliber altogether
>Everyone else's face when the army punks them

HAHAHA. Get punked, everyone.

>>33607124
Just remove rear pin

>>33607127
>7.62x36
this is exactly what the army wants. It has more power and isnt dependent on barrel length.
>shit tier furniture
the furniture is designet to meet the needs of special forces
>open as fuck action
its actually more sealed than the original AK. Everyone knows that a sealed AK-System (like FNC,SIG550,Galil,etc) is the most reliable system.

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>us mil adopts 6.5
>people start building 6.5 m4 clones
>mfw everyone was bitching about me building an m4 in 6.5g before the switch

>>33607098
Adopt AR10
>chambered for 6.5 meme of the month

>>33607127
>doesn't exist on this plane of reality
ftfy

Why not just give everyone an XM-25

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>>33607169
What the army wants is more range, actually. An AK-47 reaches 300m, while an M4 reaches 500m.

>"U.S. Army troops feel they're "in a street fight with a guy with longer arms." That longer arm is the 7.62x54R cartridge, the cartridge used by the PK machine gun and Dragunov SVD sniper rifle. The PK squad machine gun is extremely common; it's in use by the Taliban, the Islamic State, and most insurgent and terrorist groups worldwide. Longer and heavier than the 7.62x39-millimeter round used in the AK series of assault rifles, a PK with the 7.62x54R round has an effective range of 800 to 1,000 yards, versus only about 350 yards for an AK-47."

They DON'T want to use 7.62x39, because 5.56 is already beating that. They want something that beats 7.62x54R.

>>33607197
Give each squad one at least. Keep the rest riflemen for now due to cost.

6.5 Grendel time?

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>>33607244
We 6.5 Grendel now

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>>33607148
that's a hell of a fucking angle.

35 degrees, 5 minutes, 34 seconds.

So much for "close enough" right guys?

>>33607021
Sounds like they need to make 6.5 mm grendel M4s

Based on my 25min Google spree on 6.5, it seems to be a viable option.

Lighter recoil than .308
Slightly better ballistics

>>33607244
Is it even a round that suits the role the army wants?

OP's article also says that the army could just use more powerful 5.56 rounds to get extra range they are looking for.

>>33607148
is .264USA fast enough to penetrate armor effectively or will it rely on hardened penetrators much more?

>>33607258
Mk 262 mod 1 maybe?

>>33607265
Something like that.

>"The relatively new 5.56-millimeter Mk 262 round paired with an 18" barrel would make the M4 effective to 700 yards in the hands of a trained rifleman."

Sounds like the marines are doing that with the M27. Still doesn't quite beat 7.62x54R, but it's an improvement and would be enough to mitigate the range advantage those ISIS squads that are apparently all using PKs.

6.5,6.8, and 7.62x39 are rumored to be in testing.

>>33607286
Are 500+ Yard firefights that common?

>>33607258
Depends who convinces them. What they're saying now is "we want a 7.62 rifle for 600-800m that we'll rebarrel to 6.5 later". If that's what they REALLY want then the SR-25 or the SCAR already fit the bill. A good saleman / pencil-pusher could instead convince them to refit existing 20-inch M16 to 6.5 Grendel, which would reuse a lot of parts and totally skip interim rifle.

>>33607295
>7.62x39
No fucking way the US will adopt that.
There's a reason Russia went with 5.45

>>33607318
>There's a reason Russia went with 5.45

to control full auto fire, and to copy (quite poorly) 5.56.

7.62 outperforms it in all categories.

>>33607295
>want to shoot further
>test a round that has half the effective range
The US mil will either rebarrel to 6.5 grendel or reup on .308

>>33607327

who knows but the fact is the U.S military is testing 7.62x39, we will see.

>>33607313
Fuck yes they are. Most shitholes have limited infrastructure thus less capable of producing urban environments. Yes i know there are many but those are the exception.

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>>33607103
Get this disgusting pile of shit off my goddamn board

>>33607334
Source or stfu

>>33607334
They are not going to use the same round as the enemy in general. They never want even footing with the enemy. What they want is to be at an advantage. Using ak-47 rounds is something only spec ops guys do when they're on deniable ops.

>>33607021
All this shit is based on a 2009 report called- increasing small arms lethality in afghanistan taking back the infantry half-kilometer

My prediction is no new rifle, but probably a wider adoption or standardization of a fixed powered optic in the 4x range with a BDC (Trijicon RCO), adoption of a 77gr round, and a 500m qualification for all or a limited % of soldiers.

>>33607326
Source needed
>>33607334
Again, where ur source for that.

>>33607378
He barely speaks english properly. I don't think he knows anything about the matter. He's probably the same slavaboo who said the US should use a modern AK-47.

>>33607295
>i would never just make shit up on THE INTERNET

>>33607341
>>33607352
>>33607378
way to get trolled like amatuers

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>>33607411
>i pretended to be retarded on the 4chan
>but it is YOU who was fooled xDDDD

>>33607403
>>33607411
These posts are correct this shit is based off of www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA512331

>>33607295
according to the USMIL 7.62x39 AKMs are basically SMGs, poor range performance and low precision.

Bad news...

>>33607411
But why is everyone laughing at you?

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>>33607358
4x isn't going to solve the "problem". We've had 4x solutions for years.

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>>33607434
I can't wait for some Gucci AR-10 to be militarized.

>usmil gets two pieces of kit, AR-10s and AR-15s
>modern multi-role jets and uncontested air bombers

>tfw USMIL has to step back in time to fight Afghans

>>33607434
Standardization. Can you fucking read?

>>33607424
that document doesn't mention them testing/considering 7.62x39 at all though
>Two master sergeants took the historical information about effective calibers and tested cartridges in 6
mm, 6.5-mm, 6.8-mm, 7-mm, 7.62-mm cartridges that would work within the system limitations of the
M16/M4
>Alternate Calibers
>6.8mmSpecialPurposeCartridge(6.8SPC)
>6.5Grendel
>7x46mmAdvancedRifleCartridge(ARC)

>>33607231
Small arms is a pretty negligible cost compared to everything else

Rifles are going to be pretty obsolete soon

Dnno how you can use 5.56 for 50 years then decide it's not good enough...

Why does every infantrymen need to outrange a 7.62x54r? Why not just give a couple guys full caliber rifles and call it a day?

>>33607475
Everyone in the middle east is using PKs and SVDs now. They have no rigid squad layout, so everyone in the squad can have just those weapons, while only one person in an american squad could have a comparable weapon, which would likely be a SAW, which would likely get targeted first.

>>33607490
Everyone is using pk and svd? I am surprised even assuming they had a choice that all would go with that over an akm.


I really doubt that intermediate cartridges would go out as the standard infantry rifle but I don't know much. Would certainly be a drastic change.

>>33607434
equipment is adopted to reflect doctrine. No branch of the US military (outside of the USMC) trains to engage targets beyond 300m. A 4x with stadia lines for range estimation and BDC for compensating for holdover in conjunction with ammo designed for better long range performance and training in engaging long range targets will be viewed as effective and economical by the Army.

>>33607475
This addressed in the report cited in
>>33607358

>>33607500
I can't really say much more than the article is saying.

>>33607439
Because the US would never consider a round of a potential enemy.

>>33607177
>inb4 6.5x55mm

>>33607527
Not beyond testing against whatever they are really going to use, no.

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>>33607021
Okay.

>>33607598
Those are all reasonable sounding articles.

>>33607109
What about 250 Savage?

>>33607598
What's you point?

They should get phased plasma rifles. The 40 watt range would be ideal for most modern combat because it generally occurs in urban areas. Although it would be a good idea to make it so you can swap the flux capacitor for a higher power range like a 60 or 75 watt.

Hear me out cucks;

>full power rifle round
>caseless
>bullpup
>hydraulic recoil reduction
>electronic noise canceling

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All memes aside, .300 kekout is decent, full power cartridges, not subsonic. Too lazy to look up exact numbers, but I'm guessing it's probably like %20 more efficient than x39

Same case, same mags, same guns, just new barrels.

>>33607439
>7x46 ARC
Isn't that the same thing as 7x46 Wilson Universal Cartridge or does it have a set of slightly different dimensions?

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>>33607635
Finally.

>>33607631
>urban combat
> not using independently targeting particle beam phalanx.
>Not wanting to be an ultimate badass

>>33607635
>HK relaunches G11 project back
>makes even more ridiculous clockwork mechanism

>>33607637
Less range than 5.56mm. Not what we want. Leave that round for spec ops and PDWs.

>>33607659
Guess that's true. Squeezing a bigger bullet into that case doesn't leave room for any range.
Well we'll save it for spec ops and tankers then

>>33607635
>caseless

unrelated to the convo, but curious. Are you guys familiar with gun cotton? Cotton is a form of cellulose, and to make it into gun cotton you soak it in nitric acid; to make- you guessed it- nitrocellulose. The same chemical used as smokeless powders today, and as anyone who shoots can tell you, nitrocellulose burns pretty clean and leaves almost nothing behind.

Cellulose is a very common material, papers, woods, etc all contain a large amount of cellulose. Flash paper, for instance; is nitrocellulose. This leads me to my question, why isnt a thick paper/cardboard nitrated, and used as the propellant AND casing for a round? It would contain a ton of energy, and leave almost nothing behind after firing. And, as it is paper, it is far lighter than brass and steel used in casings today.

6.8 SPC your time is now.

They should bring back the 30-06. It is superior to any intermediate round, and has a long action, to allow the military to upgrade to almost ANY future round.

>>33607295
Fuck off memelord. Even Russia hates 7.62x39

>>33607689

Because if a spark looked at it, it would explode.

If it got in particularly baking sunlight, it would explode.

If it sat in a very hot chamber, it would explode.

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>>33607610
.22 Savage Hi-Power in a takedown with a .410 conversion barrel. We will have the classiest service rifle around.

>>33607747
Its no more dangerous than nitrocellulose powder. a spark would set it off, sure, but sunlight and a hot chamber wouldnt.

>>33607689
>>33607757
And the ATF ruling on it hasn't been over turned.

>>33607775
>what is an explosives license and class 2 FFL

Besides we are talking mil/leo use only. Fuck the civvie market.

>>33607778
No what I'm talking about is it the ruling on it being wet and forbidden to transport.
Just anti gun stuff ruling.

>>33607793
...which obviously wouldnt apply to an arms manufacturer fulfilling a contract for mil.

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>>33607798
Or with regards to "The U.N. Small Arms Weapons Embargo Treaty" we signed, which to my knowledge we haven't disregarded, regular ammo manufactures.

>>33607021
Did .300 blk work out? or was it a meme dream?

>>33607501
Army: >bruh we're getting fucked at longer ranges due to engagements with PKMs and SVDs
>but anon says we can't adapt our training to deal with changing enemy tactics
>better use that good ol 4x, worked last time

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>>33607538
Muh dik

>>33607210
Well fuck, time to bring back .308/.30-06/.303/8mm

Could be good.

>>33607757
Nitrocellulose powder is protected in the case. I agree with the other anon, it's too volitile. It can ignite from friction, plenty of that in a semi auto, and any spark. No smoking allowed at all. Shit's dangerous, it's why we stopped using it film as soon as safer stuff was made

>>33607169
> 7.62x39
> 3 inch high at 100y on a 200y zero
> Screaming velocity of 2300fps
> FMJ ice picks for a good 20" before yawing

Nah, thanks anyway.

>>33607260
123gr at 2600fps. Meh, not much faster than a 6.5x39, and that was already anemic in velocity.

Here I thought they would have wanted something closer in velocity to a 6.5CM or the .260, like 2800fps with a 140gr bullet.

>>33607775
Nah man, it got dropped when every microtoxicology and molecular biology lab called them to tell them they just made western blot tests illegal.

>>33607878
What?
>>33607358
>>33607501
These two posts were mine. I said the Army would most likely adopt 4X optics in conjunction with longer range training/qualifications.

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>>33607246
Why does everyone like the 6.5 over the 6.8 spc? Genuinely curious

>>33608211
6.8SPC is like a better .300Blk while 6.5g is like a lighter 7.62x51

>>33608211
Performance is very similar at close range but the 6.5 far surpasses 6.8 at long range

>>33607162
They've had HALF A CENTURY to catch up

>>33608226
>6.8SPC is like a better .300Blk

Really? That's cool. 300 Blackout being innately compatible with all 5.56mm rifles really helped it get its foot in the door, though.

How about some 7.62x51....but with 5.56mm sabot rounds?

>>33607210
>Assault rifles do anything beyond 300m
Anyone who can hit anything beyond 300m already has a bigger gun

British and Canadian infantry have the longest range kills and they're perfectly fine with 556

>>33607598
>a tech and engineering interest magazine is posting articles about interesting technology and engineering

get fox news on the phone

>>33607378
>but it tumbles

Listen you autistic fuck, .30 projectile outperforms a .22 any fucking day of the week

>>33608306
Not when the damn .30 is going 700fps slower than the .22.

>>33607231
I think standard right now is two M14EBR per squad anyways, at least for Afghanistan.

>current year
>not adopting an RTG powered laser rifle

>>33607170
Except they're not going to go with your crappy block I mock up in 6.5g

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>>33608294
Nah, that's just typical Canadian crap. Others have done longer range killshots unofficially.

What a SAW can do up to 700m is target man sized targets. Our carbine ARs can at best just shoot in that general direction and hope for a hit when you get beyond 500m. That's when even an AR on a bench-rest can't reliably hit something man sized. New ammo, longer barrels, more accurate weapons and/or new calibers are how we improve that. We have some new (old) ammo in the form of Mk 262 5.56mm, and using a longer barrel is a simple affair. The marines seem to be going with a new gun that fires the same old 5.56mm.

A new caliber? That's a big, expensive leap. Only the US Army is strong enough to do that. Will they get a new caliber? Who knows. Maybe they'll just bring back 7.62 nato weapons.

>>33608526
>Others have done longer range killshots unofficially.
Yeah Stan from Ohio got a 3000m kill with his m9

can someone explain to me why the DMR and designated marksmen aren't already insufficient to hold it down before artillery or gunships are called in?

>>33607021
The US military's inability to into bullpups is just astonishing. They keep butting up against the same old issues of using short rifles but refuse to stop bashing their head on the wall.

>>33608737
No one like bullpups, S.A.S. doesn't like them. Half of Europe is moving to AR variants.

>>33607459
>pretty negligible cost compared to everything else
Not when ammo isn't in mass production and costs 1k$ per round.
If they get the 25mm into mass production things will change, but as of now you can't afford a war reserve aresenal of ammo for the things.

>>33607853
worked perfect. a subsonic .30 caliber bullet that suppresses like magic. civilians all over the us love it. this seems really off topic tho

since we're shit slinging about rando calibers what about 6mmAR small high bc capable projectile plus pretty hot (for ar15 sized cartridge) speeds. eh?

>>33607500
>Everyone is using pk and svd? I am surprised even assuming they had a choice that all would go with that over an akm.
The problem the Jihadis face is this- within 500m, Western troops have complete battlefield dominance. Accurate small arms, grenade launchers, effective armor, maneuvering, and so forth. For the aspiring jihadi who wants to kill a few, preferably without being killed, being within 500m is a BAD idea. Which is where the 7.62x54R comes in. With an effective range of 800m (up to 1200 in ambush against a squad), most Wetsern small arms are rendered irrelevant, and a single guy can tie down a squad for quite a while until heavier firepower can be brought to bear.
The real solution is the XM25 which will kill the ambusher with a single shot at the squad level, not replacing all rifles.

>>33607637
>heavier than 5.56
>lower velocity=steeper trajectory=shorter PBR
how about no.

>>33608534
Australian SAS once killed a haji from outside 2500m with a fifty cal, or so a very convincing journalist embedded with them told me at a social gathering in Sydney. They kept quiet about it. Partly because it wasn't like them to brag, and more so because they broke the rules of engagement to take the shot.

I digress. If Canada and Britain are dealing with the poor accuracy of their squads past 500m, more power to them. But something tells me they don't do any better than how everyone is doing. There just comes a range where a even a benchrested rifle starts to lose accuracy and power.

America may or may not choose to overcome the range gap with an equipment orientated solution. By that I mean they'll probably use some better ammo in the same old guns. SCAR-H or hk417 re-barreled for a new caliber, maybe. Maybe just another M4 modification. Time will tell.

>>33608429
EBR=/=CDTE

>>33608760
It's a fools errand.

>>33608827
Not the greatest military caliber. Stays supersonic a long way but has a rainbow trajectory meaning you're having to do rather extreme holdovers under fire. Also weighs 1.5x what 5.56 does and has significantly stouter recoil, meaning automatic fire is less accurate and troops can carry fewer rounds.

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>>33607103

>>33607109

6.5 Creedmoor perhaps?

>>33608226
lolololol no.

6.8SPC has a shorter MPBR and a shorter supersonic range than supersonic .300blk while having half the retained energy past 200 yards and almost as bad of a rainbow trajectory, while having significantly stouter recoil and nearly 5x as fast throat erosion. It also doesn't suppress worth a shit.

It totally got outclassed by .300blk across the board because .277" bullets have SHIT TIER ballistic coefficients.

>>33608905
.260rem would be a better choice for military weapons.

The whole purpose of the 6.5CM was to allow the use of 140+gr bullets while still fitting in standard short-action mags (something .260rem and 6.5x47lapua don't really do). For several entirely valid reasons if the military goes with a 6.5 it'll probably do so with 120gr bullets, and a .260 with 120gr bullets fits in mags just fine.

>>33608949

Why wouldn't they use heavier grain bullets?

>>33607210
6 . 5 G R E N D E L

>>33608294
>>33608294
>Anyone who can hit anything beyond 300m already has a bigger gun

Do what

USMC used to do quals with irons at 500 on man sized targets but use acogs now.

10/10 at 500 prone is ez/Pz

>>33607248
and similar energy. Plus it's far better than 5.56 out of 10.5 inch barrels.

>>33608969
Because lighter bullets shoot flatter, weigh less, kick less, have enough higher velocity to actually have less wind drift out to about 900 yards, are more likely to have good terminal performance further due to that velocity, and the only downside is you lose about 100 yards max supersonic range which is already well past the effective range of any military rifle that isn't a purpose-built sniper rifle.

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>>33608998
>man sized targets
lolno. The USMC 500 yard target is 60"x60"

>>33608888
Regarding weight, yeah, no caliber change until LSAT works out. Regarding recoil though, that one must give if you require more downrange performance.

Only way I see around that is discarding sabot rounds, and terminal performance will have to be completely reworked for a teeny little dense penetrator.

>>33608864
>Australian SAS once killed a haji from outside 2500m with a fifty cal
A Victoria cross is the same level as a medal of honor.
In Afghanistan:
US 2200 war dead, 16 MOH
UK 450 war dead, 3 VCs
Canada 162 war dead, 0 VCs
Aussies suffered 41 dead, 4 VCs
Either Australians are supersoldiers, or they're full of shit.

>If Canada and Britain are dealing with the poor accuracy of their squads past 500m
Talking to Americans, Jesus Christ.
I don't know how to address such blind idiocy
If you believe American infantry are capable soldiers, have fun in your fantasy world where the US military isnt full of well, Americans.

>>33608949
Wait, .260 rem can't shoot 140grs, or just not anything bigger than 140gr?

>>33609049
IMO they can completely negate the increased recoil and muzzle rise by swapping muzzle devices. There are enough good hybrid brake/flash hiders out now the A2 is pretty much obsolete, or they can run suppressors which are GOAT at both.

The weight is a significant concern when the increase is as drastic as it is for how little performance gain 6mmAR gives. It would be less of a concern if the performance gain were greater (say compared to a 6x6.5gren/6x6.8SPC/6mmPPC-AR) though. I know it's a necessary tradeoff but that's a hell of a big negative for very little positive.

>>33608998
Jesus Christ
How are you people able to survive?
Are you just like lemmings, produce a lot of offspring in the hopes that at least a few will make it to mating age? Is that why rednecks all have like 14 children?

Everyone who knows what they're talking about for the past 70 years says "Infantry engagements occur within 300m"
When I say "people who know what they're talking about" I am of course not talking about Americans.

The Germans and Russians figured out "Assault rifle, 30 round mag, 300m" in 1941 or 42

The US clung to fucking Garands for years till they finally got the M14 before FINALLY realizing what everyone else figured out 20 years earlier.
So they got the M16
Then they slashed the barrel because they didn't need that much range.

Another fact is
The US is incapable of learning from experiences
The military especially

We're on the cusp of the third gulf war. War, war never changes when you're a fucking retarded ass American who doesn't read intel briefings.

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I decided to check OP's link for sources and found that the source they linked (http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/05/us-army-considers-7-62-interim-battle-rifle/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook) was much more informative about what the army actually fucking wants. I'll give you guys the quick run down.

>a directed requirement for a 7.62 NATO Designated Marksmanship Rifle for issue to Infantry Rifle Squads has grown in scope to increase the Basis of Issue to all personnel in Brigade Combat Teams
>The genesis of this requirement is overmatch from 7.62x54R
>the Army wants to enable the rifleman to accurately engage targets at a further range than the current 5.56mm
>Exact range is super sekret
>the current draft requirement for the IBR calls for a 1×6 variable optic.
>7.62mm is not the Army’s end goal
>The Interim Battle Rifle is a plan to eventually adopt one of the 6.5mm family of intermediate calibers
>Such a transition is all-but-impossible with the current 5.56 receiver sets
>Currently the Army is evaluating .260, .264 USA and .277 USA
>Army doesn’t plan to conduct an intermediate caliber study until the early 2020s >They want to adopt 7.62mm right now to deal with a newly identified threat with what’s available
>The "right now" options are the Mk17 SCAR-H, the M110 Semi-Auto Sniper System and the M110A1 Compact Semi-Auto Sniper System (all modificatied for a DMR role)
>Army may evaluate these platforms and determine that none of them meet their requirement. In this case they may very well issue an RFP to industry.
>continued development of polymer cases or telescoping rounds is to be pursued to increase the amount larger caliber bullets a soldier can carry

>>33609073
Loaded with any bullet longer than a 123gr SMK it won't fit in a M118 Pmag or short-action boltgun internal mag. Any bullet longer than the 130gr Berger VLD it will no longer fit in a short-action AI mag, it would require a long-action (.30-06 length) magazine. AI mags are appreciably longer than the "standard" short-action mag.

They can still be single-loaded just fine, and many target rifles are built on long-action receivers specifically to gain mag length, but neither of those would be practical in a combat rifle.

>>33609061
>>33609095

Why does this topic, and the US military upset you so much? Did US troops mistakenly drop ordnance on you?

I feel like this topic should not rouse this much anger.

>>33609118
> Loaded with any bullet longer than a 123gr SMK it won't fit in a M118 Pmag or short-action boltgun internal mag.

Bruv, I think something is wrong with your internal magazine. Lots of 140gr bullets within OAL.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/350226/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-260-remington-140-grain-sierra-gameking-boat-tail-box-of-20

>>33609102
>modificated

>>33609061

>Either Australians are supersoldiers, or they're full of shit.

Probably supersoldiers desu

ADF has been notoriously reticent about letting the regular units do much fighting, intead opting to give most of the work to the SASR

>>33609154
Bruv, I think something is wrong with your brain. The 123gr SMK is significantly longer than the 140gr gameking because it's a long pointy match bullet with a long boattail.

And we're talking military applications which automatically rules out any and all designed-to-expand bullets such as softpoints.

It is the ENTIRE FUCKING REASON I specifically said LONGER, and not HEAVIER. Match/OTM bullets like what the military would be forced to use are longer for their weight than hunting bullets are.

>>33609061
In my opinion, there is a general perception that Australian SAS is better than what the Leafs have to offer. The Oz climate is good training for the middle east, and culturally the Australians are much more enthusiastic about the work.

With regards to your jab at american grunts, if that's what you believe then there's no reason not to give them some better toys to make up for their supposedly terrible effectiveness.

>>33607437
>what is sr25, mk 11, m110?

>>33609176
I didn't realize you were strictly discussing SMK/Berger bullets. BTHP still has 140gr under OAL though.

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>>33607635

Disregarding memepups and the other shit you mentioned, I'd wager the 6.5 round they're talking about is that LSAT plastic-cased ammo which seems pretty good.

>>33609165
Originally I typed "with modifications", and I wanted to change it to just "modified". Kinda messed that up.

Has nobody in this thread brought up the fact that we have so much 7.62 real fuckin' NATO stockpiled that it's pretty unlikely for them to actually get a new caliber?

>>33609223
Whose BTHP? Because the SMK, Nosler Custom Comp, Berger Match/Target Hybrid, Hornady Traditional Match, and Barnes Matchburner are all the same length +/- 1mm and all bust COAL unless seated below the start of the ogive (which is unsafe and leads to feeding problems and extreme bullet setback).

Considering this entire thread is to discuss a new MILITARY RIFLE and the post you replied to SPECIFICALLY STATED MILITARY APPLICATION I don't understand how you just decided expanding hunting bullets were A-Okay topics of discussion when you know or should have known they cannot be used.

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>>33607538
I'd fucking love an AR in 6.5x55

>>33609253
That's a silly idea. Stockpiles can be sold to civilians for easy money.

>>33609274
Or belted and shot through one of our (what, 7 now?) different GPMG's/MMG's/miniguns.

Didn't the LSAT just go through range testing with 6.5mm?

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>>33609268
>Mfw I'm working on a scr style ar for long ammo like 6.5x55, besides my B.eng degree.

>>33607538
>>33607896
>>33609268

I think ar-10s action are too short for the 6.5x55 but there is some bulgarian company that makes one

>>33609208
>aussie SAS
>better than JTF2
Uh no.

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>>33609041

You can name the jpg whatever you want, but 500yd for table 1 is man sized.

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/MCO%203574.2K.pdf

On page 66 it breaks down each stage for table 1.

Try again anon

>>33609254
Federal Gold Medal Match

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/727768/federal-premium-gold-medal-ammunition-260-remington-142-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-20

>>33609366
>NUH UH YOU'RE WRONG
>proceeds to post an illustration of a 60"x60" target
nigga wtf

>>33609254
Actually, I just wanted to check why the .260 couldn't load 150s. I didn't know we were only discusing in the context of SMK/VLDs.

Also, you sound super pissed and I don't really know why, but thank you for the info regarding the Berger VLDs.

>>33609095
>Then they slashed the barrel because they didn't need that much range.

That's all I needed to read

So, where on the spectrum are you? DSM-5 might need to be updated to accommodate your retarded ass

>>33609394
>you sound super pissed
Because you made a retarded out-of-context argument then got pissed when I called it retarded and pointed out why it was retarded.

You're welcome on the info though.

>>33609375
If that actually meets COAL I would be very surprised. Wish they listed how long the loaded round is.

Also:
>pinched and trimmed meplat in picture
I'd be willing to bet Federal modified or had a custom order for those SMK's and they're no longer 140gr (like the 115gr DTAC David Tubb sells). Granted this IS something that can be done at home, even if the equipment is kinda expensive.

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>>33609309
I must know more, please

>>33609446
I can't see Federal selling ammo that wouldn't work in over-the-counter rifles. Also, looks they are using these: https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1742/264-dia-65mm-142-gr-HPBT-MatchKing

>>33609484
>requires a twist rate of 1x8" or higher
>literally all factory .260rem rifles are sold with a 1x9" twist rate as the round was originally intended as a hunting round utilizing 110-125gr bullets
And yeah I can totally see Federal offering ammo that doesn't fit OTC rifles, because they've done it several times before.

I am now VERY curious about this load though, further research shows the 142gr SMK is the same length as the 139gr SST. It may very well fit in some rifles with non-detachable internal mags. Further research is required.

>>33607021
What they really need to do is make people better shooters.

>>33607109
Just go for select fire .338 lapua.
If nothing else it will make grunts even more miserable.

>>33609564
Gonna have to get rid of all the city folk then.

>>33609377
you are supposed to aim for the black cletus, not the white

now look at the mesurement of the black target within the white square

>>33609582
Doesn't matter, hits within the white circle are still scored.

>>33608839
This makes me question the effectiveness of underrail GLs on the modern battefield. Are they really just signalling devices? Is cost the only hurdle for an XM-25 to clear before it's the primary grenadier tool?

>>33607177
>Adopt 6.5 cdm
>create new mos for "combat rifle rebarreler".
>squads get new barrels every 2 weeks.

>>33609603
>Doesn't matter, hits within the white circle are still scored.

maybe it's a way to say "even if you didn't hit the target you did suppresive fire on him" and by that i mean, i'm damn sure i wouldn't stick my head out if the bullets are landing a few inches away from my torso

>>33607231
All that's needed is 1 per squad anyways. This is to counter PKMs and lone marksmen, you don't need a new service rifle for that and DMRs are already a thing. Also, we have a counter to PKMs already in the form of the 240B/L.
>>33608429
Are you from 2006?

>>33607021

Protip: nothing is going to happen, like every time before.

If they so desperately wanted to extend the range of the rifleman, they would have already:
- made Mk262 or Mk318 standard issue instead of the trash that is the M855 (or the M855A1 "improvement")
- taught infantrymen to shoot at longer ranges
Because both of these would achieve what they're talking about while only requiring a fraction of the expenses of adopting a new rifle.

Right now, any infantry engagement at 400+ yd has riflemen taking potshots at random stuff in the distance they think MIGHT be the thing shooting at them, and the firefight ends when the enemy has either fucked off or got killed by MG/DMR/CAS/artillery.
Now I'm not saying it's easy to make long distance shots under fire, or even ID the target if the target knows what they're doing. Because it's not.
What I'm saying is any of the issues they're trying to address won't be affected by a rifle with a longer effective range, since they already have rifles that are perfectly capable of engaging man sized targets at any range a rifleman would realistically want to do so.

>>33609122
He's probably mad because the US had alot to do with NATO taking their sweet ass time adopting anything new. 7.62 was adopted when everyone knew full sized rifle cartridges were not the way to go for service rifles anymore, and 5.56 is still being polished and slightly optimized despite there being better options out there. The majority of the institutional inertia comes from US military

>>33609472
just some cad work atm. I'm kinda waiting for some responce from the the norwegian nature/hunting department, if they will approve my design for hunting. or competition only.
I might have to design it with an internal mag, maybe something along the lines of the Krag.

anyways, it would give us euorfags a cuck ar15 that cant be touched by the new shitty EU rules.

so I think there might be a marked for it, also wooden weird caliber traditional stock ars look fucking ace.

>>33609549
Savage, Tikka, and Remington all ship .260 in 1in8 twist. You're either working off ancient info or you have no clue what you're talking about.

>>33607639
the wilson was 7.62x40 or 41 i think

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>>33607021
Just get a SCAR 17 or MK20 and call ot a day

You know your military has a problem when a cartridge designed in 1891 is giving you hell

>>33609377
Muhreens everyone

>>33609603
from experience most hits are 4 or 5s. Anything lower then this guy is probably a shit shot and not getting expert. People who can't shoot expert are garbage shots and usually can't be fixed. 500 is surprisingly easy and most guys do well on it. I've seen most blunders at the standing or rapid fire surprisingly. So although they are scored most people still hit black or the inner circle. The rest is sympathy points because the score is accumulated after a long time and its easy to drop a shot here or there. Being 3 inches to the right of a target and still getting a zero sucks especially if you're having a bad day. So although we don't have to hit the man sized target. By dropping all those shots you're likely to fail the range or get laughed at for having a pizza badge. Its a score on accuracy.

Its not like the army qual which I find cool and should be implemented but unforgiving and not an accurate representation of pure accuracy. The range I shot at had some targets harder to see than other. Some more exposed. Some rose up late. Seemed more like good training than an absolute measurement of ones accuracy.

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>>33609377
>>33609366
>>33610011
mafs

>>33609851
Boooring. They're not going to adopt a new rifle that's only marginally better than the old one.

When's the scarpup coming out? At least that would offer some better handling in CQB.

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>>33610309
>Army wants a battle rifle for extra range
>Autists on the Internet want it to be setup for room clearing.

>>33610334
With bullpup it can be BOTH without needing to fiddle with different configurations.

>>33610334
Except it's better for both and grandpas like you need to realize having an empty stock on the end of a gun is a waste of space and completely pointless. It's the new millennium and we're doing great things with engineering in terms of increasing performance and efficiency, the firearms market is no exception.

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>>33610427

>Memepups

>>33609579
That's a false stereotype if I've ever heard one. I've lived in a city my whole life and shoot better than every country/small town friend of mine, which considering I'm not all that great really says alot

>>33610498

Yeah, that's why bullpup nations are dropping them left and right for AR-style weapons, yeah? Or why there's next to no bullpups in 2gun, 3gun, etc., even internationally, right? That's why SF that can afford any weapon they want all use AR or SCAR style weapons, isn't it?

Literally go suck-start a shotgun you insufferable cunt.

All you memepup autists really have anymore is "muh balance", or "muh grenade launchers" and those aren't even good arguments.

A modernized M4 or ACR length/style carbine in 6.5 LSAT or whatever does most everything a bullpup does similarly if not better.

The MDR, if it ever fucking releases, seems cool and all, and I'll probably pick one up, but it's not going to suddenly change everyone's opinions on bullpups and get them widely adopted or other such shit. Same goes for that MSBS or whatever.

>>33608839
Isn't the XM25 meant for 500m engagements though? I know it can go farther, but I don't see how that's the game changer outside of standard engagement ranges

>>33609061
Generally, non-US coalition forces tend to all be combat oriented.

While the US is dealing with a lot of the logistics of whatever war.

So, a smaller purely front line army, will get more of those high ranking medals, than the army that has to do logistics too.

This is also why the casualty rate is higher among countries like Britain, compared to how many soldiers they have. They simply send a higher percentage of their soldiers into combat.

>>33609620
Underrail GLs are part of the 500m overmatch I mentioned; within 300m they are quite effective. Beyond that they just can't reach; there are current developments to increase range.
25mm grenades lack the punch of 40mm, and the large variety of grenades available. So it's not just cost, it's cost effectiveness for everything other than the niche the 25mm was designed to fill.

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>>33607021
I would suggest the NERF Rapidstrike CS-18
>Fully automatic
>Runs on the most common resource; batteries
>Cheap to buy
>Cheap ammo
>No restrictions
>Colourful
>5 tactical rails
>Front barrel extension
>Reliable
>Not to heavy for weak NEET's arms

Join the master race /k/.

>>33610498
>Grandpas like you
>I'm 25

>>33610604
>but I don't see how that's the game changer outside of standard engagement ranges
The thing is that the 25 can kill in a single shot a target behind cover. The grenade with time fuze shortens engagements drastically.

>>33610498
Die you fucking Boomer!!

>>33607313
Afghanistan

>>33608294
>British and Canadian infantry have the longest range kills and they're perfectly fine with 556

They used .338 Lapua and .50 BMG for those kills though, not 556.

>>33609061
Australian Army had far less logistical/soft units involved and from the get go had better motorised protection.

Plus, because they were focussing on a smaller area, DA and high risk tasks were almost always allocated to SASR or CDO.
CDO would be equivalent to Rangers, SASR would be high end SEALS with a focus on COIN - when units like that are your primary DA teams, they will perform better on an individual basis.

>>33610498
I am a left handed midget who needs to do tactical reloads and clear rooms at 600 meters.

Build me a rifle

>>33610522
Just my observation from my time in. There wasn't a big discrepancy on the qual range but the city folk simply could not shoot under stress, IE actually in combat. They were doing shit like shooting the dirt 3 feet in front of them if they actually fired at all, more than once we'd get through an engagement and an experienced soldier from the city would go "lol whoops, safety was on the whole time" because he was too stressed to realize all that futile mashing of the trigger was not actually firing rounds.

And, believe it or not, it had absolutely nothing to do with race or color. The white guys from Denver were just as bad as the black guys from Detroit and Atlanta, and the black guys from just outside Macon were just as good as the white texas hicks.

>>33611036
It's almost like there are specialized tools available to a commander dependent on the situation.

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>>33607210
What about 7mm Remington Magnum? All the power of 7.62 but with better ballistics.

>>33611315
or .280 remington

almost as good, but not belted and less of a barrel burner.

>>33609727
Mk318 is trash

>>33611495
I really wish this or the .284 Win had done better.

This shit happens once a year. they aren't gonna move from a NATO standard caliber, .308 doesn't fit in with modern military doctrine, and nothing in 5.56 is that much better than an m4 to warrant and complete rearmament. Nothings gonna happen.

>>33607103
>US adopting anything that even remotely looks like an AK
The day this happens is the day the U.S dissolves.

>>33607490
Wow massive talking out the ass.

This buzz comes up every year. The easiest answer would be to make the 77 grain mk262 the standard round. Tests show Increased range and lethality, even from sbrs. Problem is they just switched to the m855a1 a couple years back and still have a ton of m855 for training.

>>33612397

I wouldn't even mind it being an AK, but the Tapco tier chassis is just insulting.
All the companies like CAA, Tapco and Fab Defense with a marketing strategy of "haha we can mold polymer NOW LET'S INTO GUNS" that was all the rage in the early 2000's should seriously just fuck off and die already instead of pushing one turd after another, and that's coming from a guy who likes (decent) polymer accessories.

>>33608839
>The real solution is the XM25
Or a GMPG, or a DMR.

>>33609102
>They want to adopt 7.62mm right now to deal with a newly identified threat with what’s available
>newly identified threat
Truly army bureaucracy moves glacially.

>>33607103
This is possibly the ugliest gun I've ever seen

>>33608211
S-sauce?

>>33612633

>>33612633
but is anyone really surprised?

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>>33607610
>What about 250 Savage?
You know, I've always thought that would have been a pretty decent midpoint cartridge. When they were doing the trials for 5.56 and the AR15 a cartridge based on a cut down .25 Remington was tested. It was forced to fit into the AR magwell, though, so it used a really stumpy and light bullet.

>>33609102
Thanks, that explains it a lot better

>>33609377
Hitting white is a miss zero points.

I bet Murray is fucking whirling around trying to get his 7x46 UIAC round good and ready.

>>33609253
Go home MacArthur, you're drunk.

>>33610930
That's where Pike comes in.

The price is worth it when you can eliminate an enemy MG position at 2km without having to wait for fires from higher.

>>33607021
What about LSAT? Isn't it close enough to completion to be in this picture?

>>33615974

Outside of a couple of interviews, there isn't much known about the LSAT's successor the CTSAS, outside of some ballistic targets. New info will most likely come out during the NDIA's Armament Systems Forum which will be held on the first of May to the fourth.

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>>33609774
I'd buy it. Maybe internal magazine loadable with a stripper clip, slap an Aimpoint micro on there and go boar hunting.

>>33609330
Luvo from the Czech Republic apparently makes one, pic related. They also make them chambered in 7.5mm Swiss.

If they're going to get a brand new rifle for long range combat why not get a rifle that can be converted into 5.56 with only minimal parts changes? One of their potential options is issuing a procurement request to the industry.

A rifle that is generally built to handle full power rifle rounds (magwell, receiver size and all) will be able to be adapted down to smaller calibers with less effort, while the reverse is not true. Get a rifle that can be a universal platform for all and issue 5.56 or 7.62 configurations to squads as necessary depending on the expected terrain. Same controls, same ergonomics, different calibers.

>>33617664
Transitioning to 6.5mm from current 5.56mm receiver sets is not viable or we would be doing it, obviously. We need range now. We will start with 7.62mm and go from there.

>>33617826
Exactly. A rifle that can accept 7.62x51 or even larger rounds, then have conversion kits that scale it down to 6.5 and 5.56, placing buffers in the magwell and such so that it is a nice tight fit. The most it would add in terms of weight would be measured in ounces, so its not a big issue.

Throw some 6.5 Grendel uppers on the existing M4 lowers and call it a day.

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>>33607021
>burgers brings new rifle into future war
>ISIS brings drones
Why does military always prepares for the last war?

Everyone forgetting that the US is a part of nato, which currently requires rifles to be in 5.56 or 7.62. Upgrading ammo to the 77 grain makes more sense. Also 6.5 grendel for an ar would require a new upper, bolt and magazines.

>>33609774
pics plz

>>33618129
>77 grain
Not NATO compatible.

>>33617848
That's unrealistic and too complicated.

>>33618180
77 grain otm has been in service since the mid 2000s

>>33618129
>>33618180
or if more penetration is needed mk318

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>>33618072

>>33609122
Because it's like watching a retard in a sports car, hammering on the gearlever to start the engine. It might be amusing at first but in the end you just get angry.

>>33610564
great argument from authority there lad.
SF uses shit they use. You don't know why, you don't know for what, thats why they are SF and even SF makes mistakes.
Saying that something is a good idea because SF does it instead of saying its a good idea BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE makes you reddit tier. go back. it should be mandatory.

>>33610564
>>33618312
SF prefer ARs because its the most developed and supported rifle design in the world. They can pick what they need to use when they need it. Bullpups are still objectively, practically, rationally better for the average infantryman who cannot choose his weapon (and logistics will be happy because they now have fewer designs to manage).

Given enough time and development, their triggers will become good and their feeding and ejection systems will become ambidextrous without any mechanical side effects and issues. After that, with an extra touch of luck, it may become a big enough thing in the civilian world for a healthy aftermarket to form. Only then SF types may find that particular bullpup palatable to pick up.

>>33618222
In US service.

>>33618072
It isn't even the last war, it's the last century. Small arms don't have much effect on the battlefield. But even still, if there's a gap in your capability it'll only be to your disadvantage. 40 dollar drones on the other hand are not a gap in capability to a well equipped and prepared military. Its a neat trick that works for ambushing hadji cops and that's about it.