Rifle actions

>>33573533
Traditional bolt action is the strongest and most accurate.

Lever action typically uses a tube magazine, making sprtzer bullets unsafe. It is slightly faster than a bolt, but not as strong or accurate.

Pump action is seldom used in rifles other than 22 LR.

Straight pull uses a rotating bolt similar to most semi auto actions.

>Is there a significant difference in how fast a trained person can cycle them?
No, a trained person can operate all of the above very fast.

>>33573557
Great, thanks. Any downside to the straight pull bolt, other than the rarity?

>>33573571
Straight pull is technically faster than traditional bolt action but they never became common as semi-automatics became popular shortly afterwards, I guess someone could argue that the rotating bolt adds complexity

>>33573602
The difference is so small that it doesn't really matter. A trained rifleman can fire a turn-bolt action almost as fast as a semi-automatic.

>>33573571
It adds complexity, making the rifle just a bit more expensive to produce while not really providing an increase in speed. You've basically made a semi-auto but then just left off the gas system.

>>33573623
In this hypothetical situation, semi-automatics are not available to civilians.

>>33573807
Get a bolt action. The Winchester Model 70 is the best bolt action ever made. I have one that will but bullets in the same hole at 50 yards.

>>33573807
Then get a select fire straight pull.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/70/3487#detail

>>33573807
What an awful hypothetical situation
>The State of California in another 3 years

>>33573557
Just FYI /k/, this person has holes in their knowledge.

Like for starters, pump (or as they are called in rifles, slide) action rifles are by far the fastest manual action. Especially the ones with no trigger disconnectors.

>>33573610
>A trained rifleman can fire a turn-bolt action almost as fast as a semi-automatic
No.


And Mad Minute was with the CONVENIENCE of not having to maneuver, staying still and among the cover of your comrades.

And even then, no. It isn't anywhere near as good as semi. You can't expect that is the average of a trained person.

>>33573557
Motherfucking there was a series of popular pump spitzer shooters.

Used a corkscrew internal mag iirc. I think they might still make them. Had 30-06.

>>33573533
The Lee bolt or a slamfire shotgun are objectively the fastest/smoothest actions. Slamfire shotgun is very understandable as to why; hold the trigger and cycle the action to keep pumping out rounds. With the Lee bolt, it's a BIT more complicated, though not by much.

>Able to fire without letting go of the bolt
If you keep your fingers in the right position, which is quite easy and comfortable, then you can effectively turn your Lee Enfield into a slamfire rifle
>60 degree bolt turn
Smoother opening and closing of the bolt
>Cock-on-close
You cannot completely overcome a cock-on-open's cocking mechanism. You can hear it in the action while working it. With a cock-on-close however, if you just push the bolt closed with authority, then you can completely override/ignore the cocking action. That's why someone who is well trained on a Lee action can make it look and sound like he's firing a straight-pull, but someone well trained on a typical cock-on-open Mauser or a Mosin will always have at least 3 clicks being heard.
>Mag capacity
Can't deny that it's better to have 10 round capacity than 5, especially since it takes less than twice as long to reload from empty.

>Significant difference
Nah, probably not very significant unless for some reason you NEED to pump out about 2 shots per second with a bolt-action, but it's still beneficial to an extent to have a smoother/faster bolt.

>Straight-pull
Logically, yes, this SHOULD be faster than a Lee Enfield, but I don't know of any straight-pulls that you can fire without letting go of the bolt. Also, I've handled a K31 and it's cock-on-open. There is stiff resistance when opening the bolt after firing. I don't know if cock-on-close is possible with straight-pull rifles, but if it is then a cock-on-close straight-pull would feel inherently smoother and be inherently faster than a cock-on-open straight-pull.

>Lever-action
A lever-action in a rifle cartridge will not be faster than a bolt-action in a rifle cartridge

>>33574248
In the case of a Lee Enfield, yes, a trained rifleman can fire ALMOST as fast as a semi-automatic. When accurate fire at a distance is needed, then both semi-auto and Lee Enfield have to realign sights after firing once the recoil has been managed. The Lee bolt can literally be worked with the flick of a wrist, and that flick can be done while feeling the recoil. So by the time the Lee Enfield is realigning its sights, the semi-auto is doing the same. The semi-auto might be able to have its sights aligned a LITTLE faster, but not by much.

To use specific examples, the No.4 Lee Enfield vs M1 Rifle. The No.4 is more accurate with its thicker barrel that is also floating, but we'll leave that aside. Accurate fire at a distance will be very similar for both in terms of rate of fire, but the biggest issue that they would face is reloads. An empty Lee Enfield can be reloaded within 5 seconds under ideal conditions, but there are fewer steps that must be taken to reload the M1 so even though it has 2 rounds less in terms of capacity, it will be able to be reloaded faster.

If not for that reload advantage, the M1 and the Lee Enfield would have VERY similar rates of fire at a distance, with the M1 only slightly outpacing it if at all. Ultimately, the degree of training of the individual soldiers would be the most influential aspects.

>>33574348
Yeah, but try to fire as fast as the mad minute while clearing a room, or even just suburban ranges.

Try doing it while not having friendly cover in an asymmetric fight.

I just think you give the old Lee to much credit anymore. It definitely deserved it once, but the pump motion is definitely the quickest. And even more important, it stays reliably that quick in all conditions.

>>33574227
Ausfag here, is it legal to remove or otherwise modify the trigger disconnect in a pump action rifle?

Having a slamfire Remington 7600 sounds like it'd be damn fun.

>>33574372
https://youtu.be/iiajgOeKOKU?t=31s

>>33574764
Yeah, I think I'd just go with a 7600 for pump, BLR/HLR for lever, or if I was a rich fucker, a Blaser straight pull.

>>33573571
>Great, thanks. Any downside to the straight pull bolt, other than the rarity?

I can cycle a traditional bolt action with my thump without removing my hand from the forestock or removing my eye from the sight picture. I can't do that on a straight pull

You need a smooth bolt and practise but you can put 10 shots in the black at 100 meters in less than 10 seconds on a traditional blot action. You need to watchout for cook offs and squibs though. It's as fast as aimed shots with any semi

>>33574764
>numerous pauses and failures to feed
>stormtrooper accuracy
>"didn't go as well as I'd hoped"

Yes, the SMLE can shoot fast, but if you want reliably fast you go with a semi-auto. Just imagine trying to fire like that in the heat of battle, mud everywhere and your hands shaking from adrenaline, bullets zipping by your head - only a total idiot would try and fire like that in a warzone.

>>33574815
move thumb back under the bolt raising it, press up with tip of thumb lifting bolt, kick bolt back with tip of thump on the nail side, stretch thumb back to catch bolt and pull forward and close

>>33573557
Care to explain how a bolt is inherently more accurate than any other manual action?

Sounds like cowadooty knowledge to me.

>>33574823
>Yes, the SMLE can shoot fast, but if you want reliably fast you go with a semi-auto.

untrue

>>33574843
because it is

Moving parts create vibrations and movements that make such weapons less accurate.

The only thing as accurate as a mauser style bolt is a rolling block.

>>33574372
This. >>33574348 is just a fucking Enfield fanboi

>>33574836
And don't move your other fingers....see...easy

A bolt should glide in the receiver on a good gun.

>>33574855
>This. >>33574348 is just a fucking Enfield fanboi


You've never done this or you would know you are talking shit or you don't know the technique which is not to move ant digit other than the thumb and trigger finger

>>33574852
Manual action ala lever or straight pull you illiterate tardo. Nothing is moving in any of those once the bolt is closed.

Next you'll tell me how a shotgun isn't effective past 15y and akimbo smgs are the best gun for clearing a house.

>>33574863
You have never shot a semi auto rifle ever. You must be aus

>>33574324
Sorr if I don't american firearm laws as an yuropoor, but isn't the M1897 full auto per laws definition, as it fires more than one round per trigger pull?

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>>33574843
>>33574852
A straight-pull bolt can be just as accurate and precise as a conventional bolt action rifle, as long as the locking method, barrel mounting/harmonics, etc. is the same.

The addition of a few extra moving parts (which do not move while firing) and slightly more weight in the bolt region isn't going to make it shoot any less accurately.

Lever action rifles don't lock as well as a Mauser-style bolt action, and pump action rifles typically have the slide and pump attached to the bottom of the barrel, so it's not free-floating. Both of these traits negatively affect accuracy.

>>33574890
I think the case here would be that you're still manually cycling the weapon - it could be argued that the pump acts as the trigger, and you're firing each time it's actuated.

>>33574890
no

>>33573610

I wish this meme would die.

>>33573533
>Is there a significant difference in how fast a trained person can cycle them?
no, but in general you won't see pump rifles and lever rifles are rare because the bullet needs to be less pointy so it doesn't detonate the primer of the cartridge in front of it in the tube magazine.

>>33573533

Pump actions rifle:
Aussie with a tacti-cool 7600. Looks like he spends more time reacquiring sight picture than working the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWpG8oorezk

Pump action shotguns (lots of Russians make these for some reason?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3GNMH7hdU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI

Lever action .357
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNNavNIyFcU

Best .45-70 I could find, but honestly recoil is going to be the timesink, not working the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FauvWTvUlI8

Freak of nature hunting hogs, on the run, with a straight pull 7mm mag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ob0fgc0I7A

Reasonably fast bolt action operation, but the length of pull for the rifle is too long so he has to drop the rifle to work it. I do notice sight picture again takes longer than working the bolt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rpHFnFF_jI

>>33574211
Fuck you and your accurate assessment!

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>>33575008
Certain pump and lever action rifles (at least ones designed with spitzer bullets in mind) will typically use box magazines or internal vertical magazines, not tube mags.

e.g. Remington 7600, Winchester M1985, and I think there's a few modern lever rifles that do the same.

Then there's the Lebel rifle, which had a tubular magazine but the cases had a ring indent around the primer that the tips of the bullets settled in when they were in the tube magazine, rather than pointing straight at the primer.

>>33574879
>You have never shot a semi auto rifle ever. You must be aus

Many many many of them and they will never be as accurate at range as a bolt gun.

lot of nogunz sperging on this thread or wankers with a few hundred out of an AR and nothing else

>>33574875
>Manual action ala lever or straight pull you illiterate tardo. Nothing is moving in any of those once the bolt is closed. Next you'll tell me how a shotgun isn't effective past 15y and akimbo smgs are the best gun for clearing a house.


I'm sorry but do you realise what happens when the trigger is pulled?

What the fuck do you know about barrel harmonics or what happens when you attach a bag of interconnected metal shit under the barrel.

Major nogunz thread.

I love all guns but tards thinking that semi, lever actuons etc are as accurate or can be as accurate as mauser style bolts or rolling blocks are beyond help.

As regards a straight pull...they might manage to get close in accuracy but cannot be x cycled while keeping a sight picture like a traditional bolt action.

fucking internet knowledge no gunz shitfest this thread

>>33574908
>A straight-pull bolt can be just as accurate and precise as a conventional bolt action rifle

True but you can't keep the same sight picture as you have to move your firing hand off the action and can't cycle it with your thumb

>>33574908
>Lever action rifles don't lock as well as a Mauser-style bolt action


Truth

>>33574875
>Manual action ala lever or straight pull you illiterate tardo. Nothing is moving in any of those once the bolt is closed. Next you'll tell me how a shotgun isn't effective past 15y and akimbo smgs are the best gun for clearing a house.


Go and buy a gun you spastic

Then learn something about it

>>33575229
>True but you can't keep the same sight picture as you have to move your firing hand off the action and can't cycle it with your thumb
Consider me skeptical - I want to see a video of this thumb-cycling magic.

Also, doesn't the bolt on the Enfield come back far enough to intrude on your eye socket if you maintain a cheek weld while cycling the action?

>>33575229
I don't know about only cycling a bolt with a thumb, as I've never even heard of it, let alone seen a video. But this guy never loses sight picture on a straight pull rifle, barring muzzle rise from recoil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJQapFXEO8

If modern straight pulls weren't expensive as fuck, I'd have one for my stalking rifle.

>>33575356
> that running platypus silhouette target

Fucking Aussies, man.

>>33575394
He's british...

>>33575480
I put my sound on, and you're obviously right, but why a platypus then? Or is their some weird ass animal in the UK that I'm not familiar with.

>>33575516
The moving target? I think that's supposed to be a boar

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>>33574875
Holy shit my noguns detector is off the charts

>>33575320
If you own a gun then go and try it.

If you don't why are you even talking to me?

>>33573557
>Pump action is seldom used in rifles other than 22 LR.

I really need to get an old pump action 30-06 before they get too hard to find. I'm a lefty so they're preferable to the bolt action.

>>33576066
I can't get nearly enough torque from my thumb by itself on a closed bolt to open it. I think you might have some freakish monkey fingers, as I've never seen anyone use anything but palm or thumb & forefinger on a bolt action.

>>33575198
You're right, F class shooters use bolt actions
That doesn't mean a fucking Lee Enfield is an F class target rifle you mong

>>33573602

Everyone's mad minute memes aside, the bolt throw on a straight pull is too long to work the action from the shooting position. You have to move your head off of the center line.

No h8 for my Swiss brothers and all

>>33576977
I assume you mean milsurp only, right?

>>33574324
>A lever-action in a rifle cartridge will not be faster than a bolt-action in a rifle cartridge
By simple virtue of the lever naturally indexing your hand when cycling the action, yes a lever action will be faster.

A shooter trained equally on all of the manual actions listed will in terms of speed shoot a pump action the quickest, followed by the lever, straight pull, and then bolt action. This is just the nature of each mechanism.

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>>33577021
A smart person, on my /k/!?

Listen to this post!

>>33577021
>indexing your hand when cycling the action
You mean like a Lee Enfield? I refer you to...
>>33574764
Now try to shoot an M1895 in 7.62x54r that quickly.

>>33577462
I'll give you an Einfield in the pistol caliber of your choice and you and I both know you aren't hitting shit at half this pace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw

>>33576637
look for the remington 7600 online. iv seen a few on gunbroker

>>33573557
>Lever action typically uses a tube magazine, making sprtzer bullets unsafe

they tried making telescoped ammo for lever action to get around this?

>>33577709
I disagree. If I can manage 2 shots per second with .303, then I could manage at least 3 shots per second with a pistol cartridge.

>>33578013
They use polymer tipped bullets now. Hornady lever revolution, for example.

>>33578192
Well, you manage 3 rounds a second and hit each target, you'd be right, since he hit 10/10 between 0:24-0:26. You'd be just faster than half his speed.

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So someone clear this up for me.
The thread seems to have come to a conclusion that a straight pull can be as accurate as a regular bolt action. So what is stopping you from making a pump action with a free floating barrel that runs a straight pull bolt that is just as accurate as our straight pull that's just as accurate as our bolt action? Or hooking the straight pull bolt up to a lever system for the same effect?
It feels like the issues discussed here aren't so much "it's impossible" as much as it just is "no firearms company manufactures something like that."

>>33578486
If I use this idea someday, how do I credit you?

I guess I will have to use that picture there.

>>33574211
>national concealed carry reciprocity act passes
>anyone with a Florida permit now governed by Florida laws
>Californians get Florida permits by the millions and their state laws get cucked out of existence

>>33578486
The real reason is that a straight pull bolt action is just a degassed semi-auto and firearm companies don't typically like catering to gun grabbers. Ruger and S&W did in the 90s and they're STILL paying for it in lost sales.

>>33574843
Barrel/reciever harmonics dickweed.

Consistency of lockup means better harmonics means the bullet leaves the barrel in a more consistent area means tighter groups.

Same reason for free floating a barrel.
The only thing that (so far) has been made as accurate as a regular bolt action are some straight pull rifles.

>>33578704
Could you elaborate on this? How do gun grabbers prevent manufacturers from producing an accurate pump or lever action?

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>>33575038
thats not a straight pull but holy shit is that impressive

>>33578486
Browning and Henry did this by basically rigging an AR15 BCG on a rack and pinion system for their long range lever actions.

The problem is that there isn't much of a market left when everyone not interested in you engineering is just buying gas guns in .223 or .308. I love levers, bolts, and pumps, but barring further legislation stateside, they are novelties that have been largely replaced by newer tech for most shooters.

I guess keep your design light weight, so you can at least sell to the hunting market.

>>33574857
Nice to know you're able to do that on a nice clean range with no adrenaline or mud.

>post a video faggot

>>33578818
He's Austrian or German nobility that has spent his entire life hunting and I hate his fucking guts out of sheer envy.

>>33578686
Basically, Flolrida was made a funnel point for portions of every other state (except the unique and separate controls of Hawaii and Alaska) so that nationwide reciprocity laws (not just gun stuff) would really only be decided by FLAWLrida's insanity. (Or is it insane)

>>33576066
Because I'm not at home, and don't have a fucking bolt action rifle with me?

>>33578840
>post a video

Is that where you learn everything you thing you know about guns?

>>33578912
>Because I'm not at home, and don't have a fucking bolt action rifle with me?

Go and buy one then faggot

>>33578928
>Is that where you learn everything

No, it's how he proves you aren't a big old fibber trying to keep a thread at the top of a catalog, anon.

>>33578928
>go and buy one
>go buy a gun just to try doing racking the bolt with my thumb
>not just filming it with the bolt action he apparently carries with him 25/8
Kys

>>33573571
Expensive and requires a reasonable amount of consistent maintenance.

honestly I think Straight pulls are great, but they do require love and maintenance that most militaries at the time were not willing to put into a marginal advantage over traditional bolt action.

>>33578928
If you can't post video evidence for this thumb gymnastic bullshit, I'm assuming you're making this up. I'll even let you use a modern hunting rifle and not some beat to shit milsurp if you can actually provide proof.

>>33573533
Lever actions are significantly more difficult to use while prone

>>33574852
You do realize that rifle bullets have already left the barrel by the time the action even starts to unlock, let alone have time to be affected right

>>33579520
You do realize you missed his point completely, right? The mechanism is not a solid piece of metal, the clearance between parts is not zero atoms. Moving parts are going to move.

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>>33579520
Yeah that's not how this works