The US Army wants to adopt an interim battle rifle

>what are modern optics
>what are designated marksmen
>what is body armor
There's probably a place for them as squad level weapons like the SAW. 5.56 isn't going anywhere.

for what buttfucking purpose?

Might as well issue them FALs with ACOGs at this point

>>33565232
>The idea that the average soldier will be able to easily take out a hadji that's firing on them from 800+ yards with a PKM if you just issue them a larger caliber is fucking retarded.
t. Lockheed Martin

guess what, not every goatfucker deserves his own personal JDAM, asshole.

Isn't that literally the role of DMRs?

>>33565249
>>what are modern optics
>>what are designated marksmen
Designated marksmen already exist.

>what is body armor
5.56x45mm M995 tungsten carbide core AP and other equivalents will penetrate NIJ IV/ESAPI plates. If the worry is plates that are a step up from NIJ IV/ESAPI plates, those tend to be designed to stop tungsten carbide core full power rifle rounds such as the 7.62x51mm M993 that XSAPI plates are designed to stop and any ammunition that can penetrate those plates is too expensive to issue to the average soldier (ex. the 7.62x51mm M948 SLAP).

>>33565232
>idea that the average soldier will be able to easily take out a hadji that's firing on them from 800+ yards with a PKM if you just issue them a larger caliber is fucking retarded

It's not an issue of "easily" its an issue of "making it actually possible without relying on an mg, mortar, or air support".

Also 5.56 "b-but you can carry more useless bullets!" fags btfo.

>>33565268
that would be cool, though

>>33565232
>if you just issue them a larger caliber is fucking retarded.
lol

Is there any reason they don't just use an AR-10?

>>33565330
??? Do you think the 5.56 ammunition issued just evaporates after it travels a certain distance? Also, you get just a bit over a foot of drop difference when comparing 5.56x45mm M855 from a 20" barrel to 7.62x51mm M80 from a 24" barrel at 1000 yards if I'm remembering correctly. If you want better theoretical effective range for the average soldier then it makes more sense to just issue rifles with 20" barrels again to the soldiers that need them instead of going back to using battle rifles.

>>33565395
It is because Designated marksmen and their DMRs already exist

why are they trying to make every footman a DM ?

.22lr> 5.56


carry more rounds

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What's a dmr?

>>33565232
You're a fuck.

Astan would have been much better for many units roving around that open AND mountainous terrain.

It sucks to get fired at from outside your engagement AND "safe" manuver range.

Waiting on airsupport OR taking a certain risk of a Joe getting got is shitty.

I fully support more long range weapons for Joes, and even whole units with them if the conditions and commanders agree.

>>33565451
Something already issued to certain soldiers, instead of being issued to everyone like some sort of Cock of Doody bullshit. If we're going to go with Cock of Doody bullshit, let the LSAT developers have their way and give every rifleman a ~9 lb belt fed 5.56 CT rifle in their experimental configuration where it automatically loads the belt for the soldier.

>>33565440
>what are dimishing returns
.50>7.62
More stoppin powah

A proper 5.56 SPR with good optics and ammunition is perfectly capable of single shot incapacitation at 600+ yards, which is the maximum effective range of 99.999% of service personnel anyway.

You could issue every soldier in the armed forces a WA2000 and their ability to effectively engage beyond 600 yards wouldn't improve because they don't have the ability to begin with.

It's a good way to waste a bunch of money and sacrifice the effective advantages of 5.56 for no gain.

The only reason they would adopt 7.62x51 as a widely distributed service cartridge would be because of retarded fudds in the command structure, or they have a metric shitload of old 7.62 ammo laying around and it's an economic decision.

>>33565521
I was being sarcastic...I know what a dmr is...I posted amy m14 ebr for fucks sake.

>>33565490
Congratulations, with that retarded decision you are now outgunned by hadjis in any engagement closer than the ones used to justify issuing battle rifles, because now your soldiers can only carry half the ammunition they would be able to with their 5.56 rifles while the hadjis can shoot to their heart's content with their lighter ammunition on top of their already lighter loads that allow them to carry more weight in ammunition.

Massive SCAR procurement when

I agree with OP's unpopular opinion

Watch combat helmet cam videos and tell me how often you can actually see where the shots are coming from. I know they're low quality, but still.

All you see is a bunch of servicemen ducking behind mud walls and yelling. Then some pops and cracks as rounds land near them. Then they poke up and squeeze off a few rounds hastily, or if they're a SAW gunner spray some rounds. Most of the time it doesn't really even seem like they're sighting through their optics. What would they sight at? They don't know where they're being shot at from, just a general direction.

It's a numbers game, keep it .223, more chances to land hits.

if you can't handle a .308 battle rifle what are you doing in the military?

>>33565232
wish the 6.5mm trials would hurry the fuck up. interim my ass.

>>33565232
>Can these idiots just fucking die already? The idea that the average soldier will be able to easily take out a hadji that's firing on them from 800+ yards with a PKM if you just issue them a larger caliber is fucking retarded.
Airburst is a thing.

>>33566022
Yeah, a thing that will be only be issued to a limited amount of soldiers with additional training for the role the same way GPMGs are issued. They will not be issued to every soldier.

>>33565615
>shoot to their heart's content with their lighter ammunition on top of their already lighter loads that allow them to carry more weight in ammunition

Sweet then the they can blast through the one or two mags they have on full auto at 400 yards before dumping the weapon.

Then their even further improved mobility will allow them to keep up with the women of the house as human shields until the next spot they left prepared weapons and ammo.

>>33566093
Then they're dealing with targets they need to take out as quickly as possible, which means lighter rifles with lighter recoil for faster follow up shots still win over retarded fantasies about going back to issuing battle rifles.

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Knights Armament SR25.

Stick one in every squad in place of a m4 or m16.

Ar pattern so minimal training.

Fuck the FN SCAR H

>>33565330
>Also 5.56 "b-but you can carry more useless bullets!" fags btfo.
5.56 can and has killed people in theater in excess of 800m+. What the fuck do you think the mk12 was made to do?

It's actually effective farther given the altitude of the afghan mountains. Whether or not the average boot can make hits at that range like the guys with the gear is another issue entirely.

AR-10 or M14?

>>33566222
AR10 obviously, M14s are shit that were only ever fielded because the military freak out at the unexpected engagement distances back in 2004. Hence why CSASS is an AR10.

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The Army's soldiers are incapable of using their M16s at 300 meters, let alone 800. If they want long range hits get the guys out of the motorpool/inventory/SHARP training and get them on the range.

I don't get it. Is there any reason we can't have two rifles ready per soldier and they just decide before the mission which one they get? Shouldn't be a problem with modern logistics. The manual of arms can be just the same too if you have the right rifles. And it's not really a fiscal factor, because they use the rifles until they are used up anyway, so having twice the rifles used half the time makes for the same cost in the end.

>>33566272
>>33566222
It'll probably be a 417 desu. They already replaced the KAC rifles in the M110 role.

>>33566307
The only group of people capable of using their weapons nowadays are fucking SOF, grunts can barely be trusted to patrol already bombed out roads

>>33566352
>be seals
>no infantry skills whatsoever but get picked to do infantry shit over MARSOC because muh seals meme
>die
hitting compounds with known bad guys as SF is way fucking different than maintaining a presence and trying to win "hearts and minds" until you get shot at as a boot.

>>33566078
why not?

>>33566436
>be 11X/03XX leg
>touch rifle once every 4-6 months
>but sure learned to not rape people because they bummed me for a light!

>>33566161
Yeah because the learning curve is so steep with a FN SCAR. That said, G28's for everyone fuck you fuck the sr25

>>33566335
not how it works mate
they don't know where they're going to get attacked from

Why not just have whole squads of designated marksmen or machinegunners?

>>33565323
That's a /thread

The move back to 7.62 or similar Battle calibers is inevitable; modern technology in optics and more lightweight materials dampens the problem with post-War Battle Rifles, and while the effect may be less noticeable innadesert when we end up in another symmetrical war with an industrialized nation you're going to want something stronger than 5.56.

For once USM Procurement might just get off its ass and do something meaningful in an interwar period.

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>>33566582

Russian did

>>33566093
Doesnt that run counter to what you said here
>>33565490?

>>33566582
Designated Marksmen operate outside squad formation (lag behind or hang out in an advantageous position) so the whole squad being DMRs would break cohesion.

As for the GPMGer, who's gonna carry his ammo and provide close support if everyone's also carrying a GPMG?

>>33566631
>modern technology in optics and more lightweight materials dampens the problem with post-War Battle Rifles
How so? The recoil and ammo weight problems vs intermediate cartridges will always exist.

>when we end up in another symmetrical war with an industrialized nation you're going to want something stronger than 5.56.
Why? If it's body armor you're worried about, then that was already addressed by this anon: >>33565323

So are we about to see widespread use of 6.8 SPC?

>>33566161
It's already called XM110.

>>33566631
This would be the rare and golden opportunity to make something new that surpasses .308 is some aspect, like 6.8 or .338, perhaps even something telescoping. To simply field another 7.62 battle rifle would be a disgusting retrograde waste.

>>33566675
Topkek

>>33566631
still can carry more gear and ammo if its in 556
762 is more adept for open spaces
556 is urban <450 yards all the way, until you adopt some autist wild cat shit like .300 blackout

>>33566660
Everyone is carrying everyone else's ammo, everyone is covering everyone else

It's machinegunners all the way down!

>>33566661
>The recoil and ammo weight problems vs intermediate cartridges will always exist.
Recoil is less of an issue than general weight, provided you aren't firing the thing full retard - and carbines in 5.56 aren't going anywhere, close engagement weapons still need to be full retard

As for Body Armor, the issue isn't that 5.56 can't break plates, it's that it can't do it as consistently at range. Both its accuracy and terminal ballistics cut off around 400M on service rifles, and unlike Hadji you're not going to be able to rely on potshots smacking through Chinese or Russian armor. So introducing DMRs into a wider role helps bridge that gap.

To be clear, 7.62 is not going to replace 5.56, only supplement it

>>33566692
We'll have to weight for the LSAT LMG results before the USM adopts a non-NATO caliber in our lifetime.

>>33566676
And it's been officially replaced by the HK G28E as the M110A1. This is likely a ploy by the Army to redo that competition to get M110 carbines or SCARs.

>>33566692
We ought to just wait until LSAT becomes a thing and equip everyone with them. The 6.5 CT rounds outperform 6.5 Creedmoor from a barrel that's half the length of your typical long-range Creedmoor setup.

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>>33566761
>>33566765
LSAT confirmed

>>33566749
>it's that it can't do it as consistently at range
except 7.62 won't do it at all so it makes no sense to adopt it as multiple people have pointed out retard.

>>33566765
>The 6.5 CT rounds outperform 6.5 Creedmoor

Got a source on that? I'm curious how they got a 125gr bullet to outperform the heavier 150/160 grainers.

>>33566788
what about steel core?

>>33566825
>futa balalaika
nigger, thats trash, might as well post an actual dude

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>>33566892
The dick only makes it better.

>>33566911
futa a shite

>>33566911
>Unable to enjoy the female for unless it has an enormous dick attached
Futa is the essence of gay-in-denial

>>33566807
>what if an anon already compared multiple steel core 7.62 rounds in this very thread

>>33566962
pffft, only if you get rid of the mammaries

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>>33566962
It's not like I don't like chicks without dicks. On the other hand, people who are vehemently against futa and traps have been scientifically proven to be insecure in their sexuality. Also, I deleted the Balalaika pic so I wouldn't get b& for porn on a blue board.

>>33566436
>be seals
>no infantry skills

They learn basic infantry skills in the third phase of BUD/S, and it gets honed in SQT. Congratulations for not knowing jack shit about SEAL training.

>>33567009
>It's not like I don't like chicks without dicks.
>I just prefer to lift the skirt and find a great big meaty porksword waving in my face
>But I'm not ghey
>Ur just insecure lol XD
Its always this way with futatards

>>33567009
SFW is dumb concept
its antithetical, youre at fucking work, you shouldnt be here in the first place

>>33567021
Also they're training in garrison anyways so why is anyone jerking off the average rifleman in the Army or Corps if either of those groups is spending more time sitting on their ass being told not to rape anyone while a SEAL is downrange until he's sick of the concept of using a gun?

The average grunt today should groan mighty loud at the idea of having to use his rifle, the whole fucking division should be nearly up in arms they're so sick of using their weapon to make sure everyone is hitting a minimum of 80% or so of their targets during a marksmanship test.

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>>33567048
>prefer
Who said anything about preferring one over the other? They're both good. Don't confuse me with whoever this chick is in this picture.

>>33565232
Shoot back with the 240? Also FN are turbo jews.
>remove muzzle device
>voids warranty
>scar beats itself to death if used with suppressor

What exactly what it take to the fix the M14 anyway?

>>33567102
I thought they used the FSC, which takes snap on suppressors

>>33567119
Scrapping the whole damn thing. It's a big heavy antiquated dinosaur.

>>33567130
The FSC is only on the civilian versions, and there are no suppressors that snap on to a .308 muzzle device afaik or anything for an FSC. The Mk16 and Mk17 come with an older version of the AAC Blackout flash hider that civilians can't buy anymore (it's a MITER mount one, but it's 18-tooth instead of the genericized 51-tooth or the newer 90-tooth).

>>33567065
Unfortunately the mods and admins of this site do not feel the same way.

>>33567198
>that civilians can't buy anymore
whats so fucking special about this lump of machined steel?

7.62 is a shit round if they want to extend range. 6.5 or bust.

>>33567215
It's an ancient, antiquated 18-tooth flash hider that's incompatible with currently-manufactured AAC suppressors.

>>33567229
>AAC makes planned obsolescence with bits of steel

are they owned by fucking freedom group?
jesus christ

>>33567215
the mil version has an inferior mounting setup that was solved by adding more teeth. nothing to be butthurt about and they were right to pull it off the commercial market.

>>33567102
This

Isn't that what LMGs are for? Besides, i always thought that the vast majority of engagements would go like this: unknown number of targets at >1km a job for arty and the chair force, handful of targets(maybe an MG nest) at <500m is DMR territory, <200m LMG for cover, maybe couple 40mm's and anything closer than that would be the perfect distance for 5.56.

>>33567246
it caused poi shift. aac was looking out for us but has to make the trash version to support existing .gov contracts.

>>33567267
why don they just make a new contract for the "better" one, the taxpayer makes them money

>>33567302
because they'd have to compete with everyone else moron.

>>33567325
its not my fault theyre pussies

>>33567352
>>33567325
Blackouts are still some of the best flash hiders around.

>>33565232
Isn't this quite literally what a Designated Marksman is supposed to do?

>>33565251
The FAL is an AWFUL choice for a DMR.

>>33565395
They already have GPMGs and DMR.

>>33565409
The M110 is basically an AR10.

>>33565268
Kek

>>33565490
Mouthbreather.

>>33566161
They already do that.

>>33565490
>Joes
GOOO JOOOOOE!!1!

>>33567065
>he can't shitpost from work all day
what a cuck

>>33567537
if you can shit post there, why bother? why not read a book or catch up on some anime?

>>33566222
AR-10, the M14 is a bitch to accurize in comparison, outside of a heavy ass (and ugly) EBR stockset.

AR10:
>trivial to freefloat
>completely inline action
>completely inline stock
>eight radial locking lugs makes for vastly more consistent lockup
>mounting a scope is trivial and easy to make it maintain it's zero

M14
>action isn't inline at all, bigass oprod riding on the side
>stock isn't inline outside of EBR abominations
>ditto to freefloating
>two locking lugs, lol
>scopes is annoying, often you'd have to re-zero the rifle if you took it off and put it back

>>33567554
I'm playing world of tanks on my ancient laptop while shitposting at work about guns and tech.

>>33567599
sounds comfy
why do you bother with a job with no effort when you could probably make more actually working?

>>33567625
I made 150k last year doing UAV avionics on the Predator/Reaper program. There's times when I work and there's times when I just have to make myself available. My last 3 months I've just made myself available.

>>33565268
This

>>33565249
>>what is body armor
No rifle round (minus exotic tungsten carbide core stuff that would never be a standard issue) penetrates level IV plates. Plates cover minuscule part of soldiers body. M855A1 penetrates non rifle plates body armor from over 9000 range.

>>33565232
>US brings new shiny rifle into fight
>ISIS drones drop bombs on stupid yankees
>literally knights in the age of gunpowder
Why are American military so technologically backwards? Literally dinosaurs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzA7TkrHnE

>>33567835
1/10 I replied

>>33566335

Yeah except now you're shipping and housing double the number of small arms and ammo than you normally would be. Also there's no way they would allow dumbass grunts the option to choose their primary weapons on a per mission basis.

>>33566798

I'm not sure where that anon got that idea, but here is the link to what st.marks did to the LSAT powder to get it to fire better. What they did was compress the powder while in the case in a manner similar to how pills are pressed today without the addition of binders or heat. That gave a 20-40% boost in muzzle velocity over a comparable volume of loose powder.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/bskc8s9wq1406j2/StMarksPowderCasedTelescoped.pdf

>>33567760
>level IV is LITERALLY UNBREAKABLE
retard alert
Protip, the more bullets you can send at any body armor at further range, the better

>>33567835
Nice fake propaganda video faggot.

>>33567065
>>33567198
If the SFW board rules didn't exist then a good portion of pictures would just end up being shitty fap bait and most boards would become /b/ tier shit.

>>33565232
Giving everyone a heavier weapon system isn't going to change the fact that they can't shoot for shit.
Giving them some 3-9000x power scope isn't going to change that either when everyone just magdumps then calls in an airstrike for some durka firing in their general direction.

>>33565232
>inb4 its literally just the M14 again
IT AINT ME
IT AINT MEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I AINT NO FORTUNATE ONE

>>33568558
SOME FOLKS ARE BORN
MADE TO RAISE THE FLAG

>>33568524
Yeah it's not like DMs are selected based on qualifying with their weapons or anything

Designated marksman is pointless
Just need a high velocity grenade launcher like the HV-40 or XM-25

>>33568558
It wont be because the M14 is an objectively shit choice for a DMR, beaten only by the FAL.

>>33567953
neat thanks

>>33567065
my job is largely sitting an waiting. I don't complain, it's like being paid to shitpost

>>33566765
>carbines

shiggy.png

>need a rifle to shoot things far away.
> want short barrel.

fucking army can never do anything right.

>>33565409
.308 ARs are currently in use with the military. they really just need to get more of them instead of a whole new rifle

>>33567246
>are they owned by freedom group

Yes

>>33565232
just make .50 beowulf standard already

>>33565232
Mke a 6.5 CM Scar with a telescoping M4 buffer tube instead of the boot folder and I'll approve of replacing the AR system.

>>33565232

.308 supersonic range > 5.56 supersonic range

This is a fact that even all the butthurt 556anons in this thread can't deny.

>>33565232

just give them AR-10s

same manual of arms of the M16/M4 but fires a stronk bullet

>>33568821
This isn't about DMs, it's established that DMs are already a thing. Which is why adopting a battle rifle is fucking dumb, because the average grunt sprays some rounds before something bigger comes in and blows up what they were shooting at.

>>33571611
>This is a fact that even all the butthurt 556anons in this thread can't deny.
It is however something completely irrelevant when it comes to the average soldier, and designated marksmen already have rifles in 7.62x51mm at their disposal.

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>>33566692
>This would be the rare and golden opportunity to make something new that surpasses .308 is some aspect, like 6.8 or .338, perhaps even something telescoping. To simply field another 7.62 battle rifle would be a disgusting retrograde waste.
If only someone had come up with something years ago.

>>33571611
Which is meaningless.

>>33571735
>not polymer cased
>not telescoped
Looks like obsolete shit to me.

>>33571752
Well, let's wait for those things to actually get fielded before we anoint them.

>>33571789
All the testing for the LSAT program appears to be showing promise.

>>33571809
I agree. It looks promising.

>>33568016
DUUUUUUDE. Rifle plate covers around 20% of frontal projection of the soldier. For every second hit in the plate target would be getting 4 hits in the body parts not covered by plate. I am pretty sure target would be more concerned about these hits than about minuscule possibility of plate fail. Body armor is overrated piece of shit.

>>33565323
>this special snowflake 5.56 will do just as good as .308
>why even get bigger calibers if you can just get these sick ass special loads

>>33572026
>M80 ball can penetrate body armor

>>33565412
The issue isn't the bullet reaching the targets, it's having enough mass to defeat cover when it gets there

>>33571949
>Body armor is overrated piece of shit.
Except for how the small area it covers is the second most likely area to be fatal if shot in (first being the head). Sure it won't keep you from getting shot, but it makes survival much more likely if you do get shot.

>>33572026
NIJ IV/ESAPI plates will stop normal .308 hardened steel core AP ammunition. You'd need tungsten carbide core AP ammunition to penetrate them even if you were using .308, such as the M993 AP ammunition that anon mentions in their post.

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>>33566093
Top Kirk fucking savage

>its a /k/ thinks they know more than people who get shot at by hadjis for a living thread

>>33571737
t. guy who does not know that when a bullet goes subsonic it will be destabilized in-flight by its own sonic boom

>>33572149
Why would we trust soldiers to know shit? Do you believe that a winter coat can stop .30 carbine because some idiot soldiers said it?

>>33572162
You're beyond fucking dumb if you think it matters, period. No one except snipers (and even then it's rare) shoot at ranges where a .308 or .223 would even go trans sonic.

>>33565232
>It’s important to establish right up front that 7.62mm is not the Army’s end goal. The “Interim” component of this capability’s name relies on a plan to eventually adopt one of the 6.5mm family of intermediate calibers.

So basically, ARMA was right?

>>33565323
>>33566661
I'd like to point out that velocity helps with armor penetration most of the time.

5.56x45 has great velocity, probably better at penetrating armor than 7.62x51 is.

>>33572162
>things would have a minimal effect on a soldiers accuracy relative to all the other factors that may affect their accuracy, such as their shaking hands, fear of getting shot, and not taking enough time to aim
Only people who care about that are snipers and people who do long range target shooting. You could give every rifleman a rifle capable of shooting sub MOA at 2000 yards and very few if any would see an increase in hit rate in actual combat.

>>33572265
>muh ARMA
Fucktards have been going on about muh 6.5mm for at least a fucking decade now.

>>33572192
You're beyond fucking dumb if you think nobody has shot 5.56 at 650m where it starts to go subsonic, especially in Afghanistan

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>>33572322
>such as their shaking hands, fear of getting shot, and not taking enough time to aim
Hallo, I wuld like to solve all your problems

The rifle is called a weapon system because it is a combination effort of all the parts that interact with it, including the soldier, yes? Then it is time to improve the soldier.

>>33565232
Not gonna lie, I'm a big fan of the SCAR

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/k/ really is full of stupid opinions, and (purposely) overreacting ninnies.

>>33572332
>5.56 goes subsonic at 650m
I bet you actually eat crayons. I'll give you a hint, M855 was designed to punch through steel helmets at that range. It's still very much super sonic.

>>33565615
I never said they all gotta carry the same gun, ya dingus.

>>33566652
Not my post, not reading it.

>>33565490
>Our SOLDIERS need to wait for air support or one of them might be shot
How are you going to get anything done if you're afraid to have even one guy get shot...

>>33572990
You must really love things shoved into your mouth because you keep trying to put words in mine.

I said, in other words, it is good to have more options (especially if the two are pretty horrific manuvers or super expensive air support).

If you think all engagements are expected to be like Omaha beach, then you have a problem. If we expected that, we would fight alot less. A smart commander does care about his men, and would like options that can protect them further, but still will send his men to die if need be.

Sorry fem commanders, I will probably always say he there, and I can't be assked to edit.

>>33567453
you mentioned Ar10 which reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask but never bothered making a thread over it

Are 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester interchangeable?

i'm thinking about buying or building an AR10 for hog hunting here in Tx

>>33572715
Wow. Improve the soldier. Who would have thought.

>>33572990
When it's cheaper to use air support than it is to pay out the death benefits that they had to offer to get the soldiers to sign up if one of them gets killed, then why wouldn't they just use air support?

>>33573021
762 can go into 308 guns BUT NOT THE VICE-VERSA.

308 IS (often) HOTTER than 762

>>33573043
oh okay. so itsl ike .38 special into 357 IIRC
thanks

>>33573049
...essentially

Just read more gun stuff. Don't blow your hands off.

>>33573049
Which do you think relates to the 7.62?

What are your thoughts on the SCAR like? I myself am a bigger fan of the 175 over the 16S. But I haven't shot a L or H yet.

>>33572332
5.56 doesn't start to go trans sonic until around 850 yards at 1100ft of elevation, at the altitudes you can find in Afghanistan it's supersonic past 1000 yards.

>>33573049
As long as you aren't using some super ancient brittle spanish small ring mauser converted to 7.62 nato, then shooting super hot .308 loads, there is no reason to worry about .308 being used in a AR 10 or any other modern rifle. People say the same shit about .223 and 5.56

>>33573043
I know the M1A gas system self-adjusts so you can run pretty much anything through it so long as it's not too ludicrous.

>>33565323
You are leaving out the fact that while the 5.56 will penetrate (only below 300m of course and only if it hits the plate head on which is not likely in a real world scenario) it will have no energy left over to actually do any damage to the enemy.

>>33573262
Don't trust that.

You got any experience with them, or really know someone who does?

I am only acting like an asshole when it pertains to stuff catastrophically going wrong.

>>33573309
I've tried one a few times from a friend so it is all secondhand information.

>>33565767
Acquiring an actual sense of discipline.
>At least that's what my GI friends tell me.

>>33573309
>>33573332
There is actually a pretty decent gas shutoff system in place but don't pressure your ammo to test it. You can put light-low medium hunting loads through it without issue though.
t. M1A owner

>>33573119
.223(civ) is lower pressure than 5.56(mil).

7.62(mil) is lower pressure than average .308(civ).

If you are implying that civilian ammo always works in military guns OR VICE-VERSA, you are fucking wrong.

>>33573067
7.62 NATO would be proportional to .38 Special in this case.

>>33573412
Correct, since we also agree that 357 would blow up a 38.

>>33573029
Well yeah, nobody seems to have thought that yet. Anytime there's a problem with accuracy or effectiveness people want a better gun, rather than considering that maybe they need better armor so that they can aim their current gun better.

>>33573506
What the fuck are you driving at.

I've never seen armor that tried to make shouldering as effective as no-armor.

>>33573371
only in america though.
SAAMI are the biggest fucking frauds of all time.

>>33573619
Idk wutchutalkingbout

>>33573626
saami specced certain ammo differently so that remshit and their other "partners" could sell more ammo and guns.

CIP (european ammo guys) works by the, if it fits in the same gun, its the same ammo. so 223 and 308 are the same as 7.62 and 5.56 nato

>>33573608
Read the conversation. The point is keeping the user calm and unafraid of taking hits. Then he will be one step closer to range accuracy in the field.

>>33565232
so was the USSR correct in having designated marksmen with SVDs everywhere?

>>33573653
Shit. You can learn that even unarmored. It's Not Giving A Fuck.

Now you haven't addressed that most soldiers are poorer shots than the equipment for the main reason, not everyone is a great shot.

>>33567119
Fixing it? There's no "fixing" the M14 from modern military perspective, it's poorly suited as a DMR and as a regular infantry combat rifle it was pretty much obsolete when it was adopted.

>>33571178
How far does that reach anyway?

It reminds me of someone who complained that the M4A1 isn't an amazing killer at longer ranges, so he wanted it to be in .458 SOCOM

>>33572149
>I served, I know what I'm talking about!
Considering that some of the most retarded shit you see people say online comes from dudes repeatedly insisting that they know what they're talking about because they (allegedly) served, you're not painting yourself in a good light.

Let me guess, you're a marine, right?

>>33572109
Mercy, my queen.

>>33573021
.308 is basically the only ammo you will find commercially, 7.62mm NATO doesn't tend to be sold and most military or military styled 7.62mm NATO guns get rebarreled for .308 for the civilian market.

>>33573371
Most 5.56 and .223 rifles sold commercially use a .223 Wylde chamber for better accuracy and safety with both.

Relatively few guns are .223 only these days and they tend to be marked and advertised as such, like the Mini-14 Target.

>>33572149
my budy was army, and while he's fun to hang out with, he's a retard about a lot of stuff related to guns and knives. I mean, he yelled at me and wiped the oil off my guns and knives last time I had them over cause "oil makes steel rust, its amazing you have anything left of your weapons! you say you have had this cheapo carbon steel knife you got as a 12 year old coated in a gob of Vaseline in storage for years and its unrested as proof? nah this must be stainless steel, your lucky it didn't rust man!"

he might know more than me for fighting and drilling, but keep my shit oiled when its in storage thank you very much.

well this was a pointless autistic rant, but I aint deleting it, its a good example of why your wrong.

>>33574210
>>33574549
>actually taking it as if I'm pretending to be a soldier
Must have hit a very sensitive nerve.

The ones who are making these decisions are not the grunts, hello? They are the ones who have a bit better grasp of the big picture.

>M14E6 vs Spensive Robo-Boot
>Made at the same factory that all the standard infantry rifles are made from.
>Totally not FN pushing their SCAR to shift more units to their biggest customer.

This sounds like a DMR role and yeah, the M14 needs replacement. IDK why they just don't go with the AR-10 since platform familiarity, but hey, we'll see how it goes.

>>33565232
Can the Army stop wasting money on weapons trials? "hurr nvm, thanks for playing though" is the same result everytime, so why even fucking bother?

>>33572860
At that range is when it starts to go below 1100 fps, how about you research this before you run your mouth

Why not .338?

>>33574831
Lol

>>33574834
What?

>>33574605
THIS

>>33572108
I don't know a single battle rifle or intermediate cartridge that can penetrate level 4 plates. Also, don't act like body armor isn't huge. I'm sure there would be thousands of US troops dead today if we were still using PASGT. Development of a cartridge that can beat new armor should be the most important design consideration for replacing the 7.62x51.

>>33574848
Why not go bigger, give even infantryman a M107.

>>33574997
Wasn't the point to have one per squad, not one for everyone?

ITT no one reads the article and sees what the army really wants is .264 USA

>>33574983
>I don't know a single battle rifle or intermediate cartridge that can penetrate level 4 plates
30.06 will penetrate lvl4 on the second hit. 7.62 AP should do the job too, though obviously multiple rounds will be necessary.

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>>33574549
>oil makes steel rust
You should slap him in the back of the head for that.

>>33574831
Because it's fucking expensive and basically no regular grunt could make good use of it, the people in OPs article have been huffing paint and forgot about DMRs and GPMGs, things that do this sort of stuff already and used by specialists.

>>33575224
>aiming for the chest

>>33575345
Yes, center mass, you fool, it's easiest to hit.

>>33575357
>knowingly aiming for armored section
>"aim for the front if the tank, it's easiest to hit"

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>>33574549
semi related note

>me and bro shootan bros for years
>SKS and AK bros
>we shoot all the time
>he joins the military
>2 years later we go to the range when he comes back for thanksgiving
>he tries to slap a mag into the AK
>spends 3 minutes trying to get it to work
ROCK IT BRO
>ah fuck, right


the military fucks people up man, kek

he's never going to live that down, i've got photos

>>33575345
If you're not aiming for the chest, it literally doesn't matter what round you use. A 5.56 to the femoral artery will kill a man just as well as a .50.

>>33575224
>30.06 will penetrate lvl4 on the second hit
Not necessarily, it depends on where the second hit is. Being able to punch through rifle plate on demand by shooting them multiple times close together isn't a realistic expectation.

>>33575224
Ceramic plates much more durable than people give them credit for. While in theory two well placed shots (like <.5MOA well placed) could penetrate, in actual combat it is an extremely rare occurrence.

>>33574750
At sea level, a 5.56 doesn't begin to go trans sonic until around 730m. The higher the elevation the longer it stays super sonic. At 3,000m (a not unheard of elevation in Afghanistan) it begins to go trans sonic at 1100m.

>how about you research this before you run your mouth

How about you do some basic googling instead of talking out your ass like the know-it-all wannabe boot bitch that you are?

>>33575371
Except a plate doesn't let you shrug off a bullet.

Ever taken a rifle to a chest plate? Shit is not nice and it doesn't take many more to defeat it.

So it's fucking nothing like tank armor.

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>>33575357
>aiming for the chest
Lul

>>33575420
You are an adorable weirdo.

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>>33571631
What's wrong with AR10s? Are they less durable/reliable than the Scar-L?

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>>33577878
lol. They made the barrel shroud out of left over muscle rack posts. Wonder if the spacing correct.

>>33576910
>Except a plate doesn't let you shrug off a bullet.
They do actually
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdqaM-zpOQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMMSA3opBk4

>So it's fucking nothing like tank armor.
>Reading comprehension, what is it?

>>33576910
>>33578227
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I

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>>33577942
>muscle rack posts
end yourself

>>33566307
not even infantry gets enough trigger time and proper training.

>>33566785
looks unreasonably heavy and unergonomic

>>33577942
Never change, anon.

>>33565232
Why can't these idiots just wait for LSAT? Isn't it within 5 years or so of deployment?

>>33565521
You know that there's a carbine version of LSAT under development, too, right?

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>>33577878
Finally a weapon that can contain all my attachments!

>>33565232
Are you retarded? 308 can engage out to 1200. 223 can not. Not every random goatfucker needs their own personal bomb, mortar, or shell.

>>33565412
>I don't know what minimum effective velocity is
(It's over 2kfps for M193)
>I don't know what happens when rounds go transonic
>I don't understand deviation at range
>I think longer barrels actually mean something
>ONLY A FOOT DIFFERENT AT 1K LEEEEL

Stop fucking posting.

>>33565604
>At 600+
More like right at.
>Max range of service weapons anyway
You don't know shit about shit. 308 can be effective at double that range.

>Don't have the ability to hit shit at 600
You do realize we have powered optics and shit, right? And that the military has been using 1-6 optics for a while now, right? Right?

>Sacrifice the effectiveness of 5.56 for no gain
AHAHAHAHAHAH
A more lethal round that doesn't get deflected by shrubbery effective to double the range isn't a gain, guys.

>>33565615
>Can only carry half the ammunition
308 weighs 5lbs per round, guys, you heard it hear first.

>>33565738
>Random potshots at the lowest tier of grunt is indicative of most combat or skirmishes today

>>33566170
>In excess of 800m
No it fucking hasn't.

>>33566307
>HURR DURR EVERYONE ONLY HAS FACTORY IRONS
>HURF DURF LOWEST-TIER GRUNTS ARE THE ONLY UNITS THAT MATTER

>>33566661
>Recoil
Muzzle brakes and buffers are a thing now, my dude.
>Weight problems
One or two pounds difference between rifles these days, when battle rattle already weighs close to 80.

>Armor
No, nigger, it's because dropping a bomb on every rando taking potshots is fucking dumb.

>>33566717
>Can carry more gear and ammo
Soldiers are already overburdened, an extra total of 5lbs won't make much difference.

>>33566788
Why are retards arguing about armor when no enemy we've had to shoot at has been wearing plates? Or when even a hit to the armor will floor your ass, or how armor covers a small part of your chest? Where are you retards coming from?

>Interim rifle
>AR-10's and shit

Don't we have a fuckload of M14's in storage? Break those fuckers out and use them until they die and replace them with the new rifles...or if the new rifle doesn't exist yet, AR-10's. But there's no reason for them to go to waste, the M14 is perfectly serviceable as a DMR.

>>33579626
Or maybe we could not do that at all and just use the SR25s/m110s/mk11mod0s that they were already replaced with, since M14s are horrid shit weapons. The only people who still use them are the marines, because they are as a branch poor as fuck

Why not switch all M16s to fire 6.8, bring out .300 Win Mag DMRs, and use 5.56 for PDWs?

>>33567021
>Basic infantry skills
>The same as Rangers or Delta

SEALS are supposed to be for secret squirrel shit, and they often get used for roles bread-and-butter-combat units should be doing, and get fucking dead as a result.

>>33567256
Not even remotely close. For the last few years riflemen have just been used to locate and suppress, then call in some form of explosive support.

>>33567556
Don't forge the M14 also requires constant unfucking to maintain accuracy.

>>33568016
Some are pretty close, but there's another three quarters worth of body you can hit that isn't covered by a plate.

>>33568524
>LOL EVERYONE KNOWS NOBODY CAN ACTUALLY HIT ANYTHING ROFL

>>33570671
>Falling for the barrel length meme

>>33571677
And this is a problem, and DMs aren't part of fireteams.

>>33571711
Read the thread; DMs don't roll with the squad.

>>33572192
223 goes subsonic at 600.
308 dips into transonic at 1000.

Can you retards not even fucking google your own arguments?

>>33572322
>I don't understand the point of being able to engage at longer ranges on-demand and as-required because it might take more than one shot

What the fuck happened to /k/? Do you kiddies think that anything beyond 100m isn't even worth shooting at or some shit?

>>33572860
A hammer and screwdriver will puncture a steel helmet without breaking the sound barrier. 223 requires about 2300fps to be reliably lethal which it simply does not have at 600m.

>>33573083
You're a fucking idiot, google it.

>>33575224
>All LIV plates are the same
>Thinks 30-06 is effectively any different than 308
>Thinks that ammo retains its muzzle velocity all the way to 1km

You're a retard.

>>33576311
Where are you people fucking getting this information from? M885 and M193 hit transonic between 600 and 700. The only time I've seen any indication that transonic range of those rounds go any further is a guy who used specialty bullets and a 24" barrel.

>>33565232

>Marines get standard-issue suppressors
>Army gets this

>>33579791

Here's what's gonna happen:

Big Army asks Batt if they like their SCARs and get a resounding "Sure, I guess, whatever." And since Big Army follows Batt in all things they pick out a couple high speed units, like 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne and issue 3 SCAR 17s per squad, which a few TLs and SLs half-assedly take to the range and put 200 rounds through. Half of them keep them and half of them switch back to the M4 because they don't like the ergos or whatever. Squad leaders will keep a mag of tracers on hand to direct machine gun fire.

The selected platoons' combat efficiency goes up by .000000003% because 1. The Army will continue to use gun runs and hellfire missiles on every goatherder they get a chance to, 2. shooter error is a bigger factor then caliber will ever be, 3. you can't hit shit past 100 meters at night with NODs and a peq 15 anyway, 4. caliber doesn't matter if the enemy takes two potshots and dives into the nearest wadi, and 5. and most importantly, riflemen aren't even relevant compared to the organic platoon weapons that are ACTUALLY useful at ranges past 300m, i.e. Weapons squad, i.e. machine guns and MORTARS.

Meanwhile /k/ continues to have 4 threads a week on the subject and autistic debates on the various merits of different calibers will be treated like a hot button issue because 60% of the people on this board have never shot a gun in their life, 98% have never seen a weapon bigger than the .300 win mag That One Guy brought to the range one time, and 99% have never seen a machine gun much less gained meaningful experience in an infantry line platoon.

tl;dr I'm a salty vet sperging out and ignore this post.

>>33579791
>223 goes subsonic at 600.
No, at 730m is when an M855 round dips below 1100fps at sea level. At 3000m it's 1100m. You also replied with a comment that doesn't address my argument, which is that it doesn't matter because no one other than snipers are ever engaging targets at those ranges and they're not using M855 to do it.

>A hammer and screwdriver will puncture a steel helmet without breaking the sound barrier.
You're legitimately retarded aren't you?
>223 requires about 2300fps to be reliably lethal which it simply does not have at 600m.
The argument isn't about lethality you mong. I said it was designed to punch through a steel helmet at 600m, which it was. It is very much supersonic when it does it too. Around 1700fps.

>You're a fucking idiot, google it.
I don't need to. I know the speed of sound and I have a ballistic calculator and personal experience. 730m at sea level with an ambient temp of 59F.

>Where are you people fucking getting this information from? M885 and M193 hit transonic between 600 and 700. The only time I've seen any indication that transonic range of those rounds go any further is a guy who used specialty bullets and a 24" barrel.

This is objectively wrong. You're an idiot. Here, I'll make this easy for you. Go here: https://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/

Enter in 62gr FMJ projectile with the factory loaded .223/5.56 option, pick an elevation and it'll be supersonic past 656 yards (600m).

>>33580047
Is this a oorah or hoohah moment?

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>>33580307
Jesus you're just so fucking wrong.

>>33580422
Your own picture has M855 at over 1100fps at 700m. So shortly after 700m, say around 730m it goes Trans sonic. Just like I said.

>>33579505
>>33579791
>I are very smart