Why so much controversy regarding hollow-point vs FMJ???

If you think fmj is better than hollow points for anything other than sheer penetration you're actually a retard with an inability to think critically

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>>33533417
>Objective facts
You're in the wrong place, kiddo

Inb4 zed

>>33533417

There are no facts in dispute.
FMJ causes exit wounds, which obviously cause more bleeding.
JHP often fail to reach vital organs.

>If hollow points are such a meme, then why is the army considering it in the first place?

Are you implying the Army never seriously considers memes?

>>33533417
/k/ is full or retards who think a 9mm in diameter projectile moving at 1200 feet per second turns into a spitball the moment it touches skin

>>33533474
>not giving evidence that less bleeding occurs with JHP

>JHP often fail to reach vital organs.

I think that has to do with aim, not with the bullet, dumbass. Get the fuck off this thread: I said O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-E facts and not empty claims.

>>33533513

You want objective proof that an object that completely penetrates the body causes more bleeding than one that gets stuck in the body?

Well good luck I guess, because i don't think anyone has ever bothered asking for proof of something so obvious before.

>>33533417
First of all, saying the word "meme" makes you look like a fucking tool.

>>33533474
>even the shittiest of 380 hollowpoints have 11+'' of penetration
>only hamplanets (like you) are more than 7'' thick
>doubling the size of the hole AND exiting the body does less than an exit wound
Put your trip back on Zed

>>33533532
>Well good luck I guess, because i don't think anyone has ever bothered asking for proof of something so obvious before.
>hurr durr i have no proof but believe me dood its obvious

So are you going to say that the size of a wound channel yields insignificant effects on bleeding rates?

Yah cool story bro, I almost fell for the internal bleeding meme and from now on I'll just look out for holes

Take your single digit IQ off this board, faggot. I didn't ask for an opinion.

>>33533608

>So are you going to say that the size of a wound channel yields insignificant effects on bleeding rates?
Largely, yes.
Feel free to carry your .50 AE JHPs though I guess.

>>33533591

>not understanding the differences between a ballistics gel block and a human body

>>33533417
People who say this are literally retarded or trolls. for that matter i highly suspect you're one of those two simply for making this thread. There're several reasons why nobody who researches terminal ballistics professionally would ever espouse such a ridiculous opinion. this is a classic example of why you don't take people on 4chan seriously.


>>33533474
Considering they make JHPs that penetrate 12"+ while expanding to or just under 200% im inclined to think you're a retard.

Hell, you probably don't even understand the difference in how a RN projectile creates a wound cavity versus a flat nosed one you airsick lowlander. Shits been known literally for like a hundred fucking years now.

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>>33533474

>>33533417
You're not going to get direct evidence deciding this factor without hanging up a large number of live pigs and shooting both with fmj/jhp center mass and then recording the results.

Barring that, your next option is to gather shooting data by caliber and bullet type from police reports (which currently no one collects at that level of detail that I am aware of) and run statistical analysis from there.

Barring that, maybe Fackler's book, if he has one. Or maybe hospital data? I recall a doctor reporting something like 2/3 pistol shooting victims survived.

>>33533730
>not understanding people already asked this question for the last couple decades
>http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

>>33533714
>still zero proof
>still babbles on like a retard
>buh buh buh more holes MORE BLOOD ME THINKS HURR DURR

You sure showed me!

One important thing to remember here is that bleeding will probably not be the thing that kills your target. Even with two 9mm wholes in your flesh, it's gonna take a long time for you to bleed out. A hell of a lot longer than the 3-15 seconds that engagements usually last.

No, the thing that stops an adversary is either directly hitting something important (brain, heart, major arteries), or shock.

For the first one, it's a bit complicated. On the one hand, the larger area of an expanded hollow point makes it more likely to clip something, but on the other hand, the greater penetration of a FMJ makes it more likely to reach something important. All in all, though, I would give the hollow point a better chance.

For the second part, what it really comes down to is energy. The fact that a hollow point stays in its target is an advantage, not a drawback, because it means the bullet dumped all of its energy into the target. A FMJ, on the other hand, may retain much of its energy after passing through the target. So, even if less penetration makes the hollow point less likely to reach a vital organ, the energy it releases could still fatally damage it. Furthermore, it can cause even more damage throughout the body from hydrostatic shock.

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>>33533776
Surgery resident in level 1 trauma center here.

Shot placement is what matters. We get something like a dozen gsws a day during the summer and the vast majority get washed out and go home because they're extremity wounds. Most of our admissions are to ortho for long bone fractures and even the majority of abdominal gsws make it. If you survive long enough to get to the hospital you're likely to survive. Putting a few holes in the chest makes that tough... 0 of the last 12 emergency thoracotomies survived 6+ hours

Just saw someone shot with a RIP bullet btw point blank to the shoulder.Total gimmick; the petals blew off almost immediately and were sticking out of his skin. The core bounced off his clavicle and stopped. Any other round and he likely would've died as it would've traversed his thorax right at the aortic arch

>>33533900
Jump through the legal hoops, collect the data, and write a book/white paper, you lazy life saving bastard. The police won't collect the data and the world needs to know.

>>33533900
+1 internet to you sir.

>>33533823
Fyi not trying to say your wrong, i think you covered everything pretty well but thought i might be able to add to some of your points in an informative manner.

"the greater penetration of a FMJ makes it more likely to reach something important"

Real linchpin of the pro FMJ argument here. however i have a couple bones to pick with it:

1. operates under the presumption that HP rounds dont penetrate deeply enough to reach the CNS, or other vitals. the vast majority of acceptable HP designs have plenty of penetration to reach everything but PERHAPS(emphasis) fully compromising the the spinal column after passing through other bones. For deeper penetrating HPs (ex hornady's line) which reach about 16-18" even this is likely a non issue.

2. Ignores the fact that FMJs actually aren't very good at this. Due to the rounded front end of FMJs, and their tendency to tumble, FMJs have notoriously non linear and unpredictable wound channels. they tend to take the path of least resistance meaning that they are more likely to be deflected off their trajectory by bones or tissues of varying density/elasticity. This is a problem that has been observed sense at least ww2. this problem was solved ages ago in hunting circles by the implementation of flat meplat bullets. these rounds offer better penetration, more linear penetration, and dont produce subcaliber wounds like FMJ does.

Oh, and have fun with all those anons who get triggered by "hydrostatic shock" and start spewing this or that about how it means still water in latin...

>>33533780

That's obviously bullshit information.

>>33533566
>mad at people saying meme
lol is this 20013? are we bringing back the "they're not memes they're image macros!!" autism too?

>>33533900
Agreed that RIP rounds are useless, someone did a test on a close human analog (ballistic jell, ribs, and pork skin under a few layers of denim) and the petals never made it past the rib cage.
The only thing that got any penetration was the base and that had less diameter than a decent .380 hollow point

>>33533417
Yes hollow points are a meme.

>>33533900
Would love to get your opinion on something if you dont mind.

In your opinion is it feasible that the energy deposited in a major blood vessel, say the aortic arch for example, could trigger the baroreceptors in the blood vessel's walls or perhaps travel through the blood and reach the receptors in the carotid sinus resulting in an acute baroreflex? been wondering if this might be a factor in why people shot in the heart/thoracic cavity have a tendency to drop like a rock even though their brain should still have plenty of o2.

>>33534046

Your first point is dumb because JHPs that manage only about 12 inches of penetration in gel have failed to even reach people's hearts before.
Second is wrong on multiple accounts, and makes no valid comparison to JHP

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>>33533900
You've started me on an interesting email/forum journey. Do you mind if I use that image to ask some doctors if they've ever seen anything like this?
Thanks in advance, enjoy some 'coons

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>>33533900
Thank you for actually typing this out.

"Stoppan Power" is fuddlore. If you've got a threat and NEED put someone down right now, no fucking around, you've got two options.

1. hit something that's going to prevent the body from functioning correctly like the spine or head. For this, you need shot placement with a round that can sufficently penetrate to do damage. .45 reliably does this. .40 reliably does this. 9mm reliably does this. .38 *sometimes* does this. Anything smaller and you're relying on luck. Anything bigger is a range toy for showing off.

FMJ gives superior penetration compared to JHP, but JHP *can* give a larger wound channel (making almost-hits into actual hits) if you can still ensure sufficient penetration after expansion. However, the point still remains that the mythos surrounding the killing power of "The Manstopper JHP" is hugely exaggerated.

Option 2. Inflict enough trauma to send them into shock and let nature take care of the rest. I wouldn't count on this with anything short of a rifle in 7.62x39 or larger. Adrenaline's a hell of a thing, and I've watched a man get zipped by more than a dozen 5.56 rounds (not all of which were through-and-throughs) stay on his feet and remain in the fight.

Just remember that Federal guidelines for viable defensive ammunition is 12-18 inches of penetration in 20% organic ballistic gel covered in 4 layers of 16oz denim

So, any round, hollow point, FMJ, HEAT, whatever, would be acceptable in a defensive shooting situation.

Also keep on mind that 1 in of pent ration in gel does not equal 1 in of penetration in the human body

>>33534068
If having autism means being right I'll be the most autistic person on Earth

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>>33533943
I tried to upload a pdf of Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques by Vincent Di Maio, M.D.

But 4chan is making the dl link as spam. Give it a read, though. Is pretty good.

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>>33534200
>>33533943
(((http://)))puu(((dotgoeshere)))sh/v9wwa/daf6ae0524(((dotgoesherealso)))pdf

>>33534184
>HEAT
we judge dredd now

>>33534106
So because some JHP somewhere under unknown circumstances had that happen means that all JHPs have that problem? your first point is dumb. id love to see a reliable source where that happened though. i can think of only one such occurrence where something like that happened and it would seem that those rounds hit an intermediate barrier which fully expanded them first.

secondarily, JHPs and flat nosed rounds don't suffer deflection problems to the degree that round nosed projectiles do so there's your comparison.

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>>33533417

I'd re read up on he FBI's and a few other domestic agencies' opinion on certain rounds, trust some more than others. You might also try military literature about the subject. A good dig should do just fine.
>>33534102
I almost tripped on a lyre coming in here

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>>33534240
How much penetration would a 9mm HEAT shell have?

>>33534242

Why are you replying as if this is some kind of argument or back and forth discussion?
I also fail to understand why you're demanding proof, as if I have any intent, goal, or obligation to prove things to you.

>>33533417

>army
>expanding rounds

didn't we sign a treaty about that?

can you use mercury rounds in a pistol for self defense?

>>33534200
>>33534227

You marvelous bastard, thank you. Should your wife ever have an affair, may the fucker sleeping with her end up on your operating table.

>>33533474
Humans are not bags of blood. Unless an artery is severed, bleeding will be minimal.

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>>33533943
The FBI already did exactly this when they transitioned from .40 back to 9mm in 2014.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a heightened incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

>>33534260
Probably enough to put the guy down if he's hiding behind your fridge

At your neighbor's house

>>33534284
legally? probably, they aren't prohibited. aim for the belt buckle.

>>33534302

That was debunked as fake a while ago dude.

>>33534200
>>33534227

Truly a god among men

thx anon

>>33534333
Offer sources like the guy you're replying to did

>FAKE NEWS

>>33534181
>Option 2. Inflict enough trauma to send them into shock and let nature take care of the rest. I wouldn't count on this with anything short of a rifle in 7.62x39 or larger. Adrenaline's a hell of a thing, and I've watched a man get zipped by more than a dozen 5.56 rounds (not all of which were through-and-throughs) stay on his feet and remain in the fight.
My buddy took a through and through (top of right lung) thoracic hit with 7.62x39 and didn't notice.

He passed out in the MRAP after the gunfight because he was bleeding into his lung, but no one knew he was hit until he tipped over and the blood started to stain the side of his clothes instead of just pooling under his armor (and the blood loss nearly did kill him).

Adrenalin is a hell of a drug and military ball 5.56 (perhaps with the exception of M993/5) does notably more damage to a body at all ranges than military ball 7.62x39.

>>33534333
Stop bumping your thread, OP.

>>33533900
>dozen gsws a day

I used to do OR xray and portables at Detroit Receiving. Almost the same exact numbers, except early spring it gets super busy when the thugs finally thaw out. Blacks dont like cold weather bruh.

I guess Henry Ford Detroit is about the same, but I did MRI there, now onto the burbs because fuck paying city income tax when I dont even live there.

>>33534356

Sources were actually the main problem with it.
If you read the real FBI handgun wounding report in the late 80's, it had sources for everything.
And other important things such as authors.
Also, this article directly rips large chunks of text from the old report, adding in slight edits so it fits what the faker was trying to write.

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>>33533474
>>33533417

what

>>33533900
>If you survive long enough to get to the hospital you're likely to survive.


I tried to illustrate that point a couple weeks back.
>Why do people shot with .22 and .25 die so frequently

>Lol, caliber doesnt matter, 22 confirmed most deadly

convieniently ignore that people shout in the hood with a .22 dont exactly get prompt medical treatment, they get left to bleed out in the street.

>>33534260
>In general, very early HEAT rounds could expect to penetrate armor of 150% to 250% of their diameters, and these numbers were typical of early weapons used during World War II.
>Since then, the penetration of HEAT rounds relative to projectile diameters has steadily increased as a result of improved liner material and metal jet performance.
>Some modern examples claim numbers as high as 700%

So in theory, anywhere from 13.5mm RHA - 63mm RHA in perfect environment/application.

>>33534278
We never did technically sign it.

>>33534368
>My buddy took a through and through (top of right lung) thoracic hit with 7.62x39 and didn't notice.

Kind of the point I was trying to make with #1. Shock is unreliable and the only thing that will put someone down on the spot right then every time is a spine or head shot. If it's not removing limbs or making softball sized exit wounds, you need to rely on shot placement and volume of fire.

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>>33534445
>pistol caliber HEAT shells come on the market
>1911s and Deagle brand Deagles come back in style for their HEAT benefits
>HEAT is colloquially re-designated as High Explosive Anti-Tyrone

>>33534477

Why not just Anit-Thug?

Why you gotta be all raciss, man?

>>33534449
We didn't sign it, but we still follow it. There was a big legal spat around an improved version of M118 in the 80s because the way it was manufactured left a hole in the tip and we weren't sure it was legally kosher to use. Marketed to civilians as Sierra Match King Gold.

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>>33534300
good luck missing an artery

>>33534546
I keep hearing we aren't supposed to use anti-material rifles on enemy combatants either but whoops.

>>33534583
It's legal, just like Willy Pete is legal because we're using it as a smoke agent to obscure enemy vision. It's just a convenient and wholly unintended side effect that it causes them to burn.

>>33534546
I doubt we're ever moving to traditional spire points anyway since they can deform in a magazine. TMK might become more common over time.

>>33534046
>anons who get triggered by "hydrostatic shock" and start spewing this or that about how it means still water in latin...


Dont you fucking dare.

Distant wounding caused by pressure impulse is fucking proven fact. There is only one semi-credible researcher that says otherwise, and he is blatantly ignoring mountains of data from at least two -more sophisticated- scientific research teams.

Dont give them an in anon

>>33533417
>This is due to the fact I've seen so many comments (like on this board) calling the hollow point a meme.
Stop listening to Zed, he's an overt troll.

>>33533417

Everyone in this thread go to YouTube and look up Brass Fetcher, learn you some stuff.

IMO I'd run hardball if I had to carry 380 or 38 SPL, JHP in anything greater than that.

>>33534649
>implying you arent replying to zed right now, giving him the (yous)s he desperately needs to survive

not sure if im slowly going crazy or just catching on to him in my old age but i've come to think that zed is literally responsible for a significant amount of /K/s trolling. i mean, he always writes his troll posts the same general way, and all of these anons coming out of the woodwork brining up zedtroll posts in a zed writing style makes me suspicious

>>33534883
every board has a faggot troll boogeyman or two they like to attribute shitposting to

>>33534455
Your point stands, but I couldn't resist the bait about 7.62x39 you posted.

That was what I was attacking.

A little bit of physics should help.

If a bullet goes through a target, it's still got kinetic energy that is being expended on something that isn't your target.

If it stops IN the target, it doesn't. The target is bearing the brunt of the kentic energy transfer.

Also a little bit of medical knowledge. If you go right through a target and don't hit anything vital, the bleeding out thing might not happen as fast as you'd like. With a JHP, you've got a larger chance of hitting a vital or disrupting a the heart/popping the skull.


Logically it all makes sense. How that translates to reality? I dunno. Go shoot a deer.

>>33534629
I do dare. I'm not believing it until we can collected repeatable evidence of concussive force traveling through tissue and rupturing blood vessels.

Is there really no way we can not create a repeatable experiment with fresh livestock corpses and sensors?

>>33535028

>If it stops IN the target, it doesn't. The target is bearing the brunt of the kentic energy transfer.

Kinetic energy is just a measure of the work done to accelerate an object up to a given velocity.
It is not some kind of magical zappy energy that shocks you to death or something.
And the kinetic energy in a pistol round is pathetically small compared to energy you encounter in your everyday life.

>>33535039
Sure, as soon as livestock corpses start having working circulatory systems.

>>33535062
Lol no.
What in your day to day life is going to impart that much kinetic energy into you at once? Getting hit by a truck?

And yeah no shit it's not magic. People get shot all the damn time and live. But it's SOMETHING to measure it by. This partly why rifle rounds do so much more, it's not the weight. It's the speed in equation.

Maybe you're thinking of chemical potential energy that would come from the pressure and gunpowder in rifle cartridges?

>>33535180

As much KE as a pistol round?
Falling over.

As much KE as a rifle round?
Someone running into you at high speed.

>>33535101
Do they need working circulatory systems, or just vessels still containing blood? If hydro-static shock is about pressure waves causing remote nerve damage, why wouldn't a freshly killed corpse work? Is swelling and bruising the only way we can detect nerve damage?

>>33535191
Different anon. Apparently KE, density, and pressure are all factors then.

>>33534445
>63mm RHA
yfw your piddly little 9mm smg is penetrating as much as 20mm HVAP

>>33535240

Like I said, KE is just a measure of work done on an object.
It has no direct relationship to wounding.
No more so than rotational inertia for example.

If anything, momentum is more related, because that gives you a better idea of penetration.
Though obviously frontal surface area and cross sectional density are still required.
Though this obviously says nothing about the target itself.

>>33535191 Napkin math. Now I am pretty drunk so check me.
KE = 1/2 mv^2
= .5(62)(.447^2) = 6.2 J
This is the average weight in kg of a person running at 15 mp converted to m/s


This is a .308 at .150kg going 881 m/s

.5(.150)(881^2) = 58,212 J


Now I am drunk so someone check me to make sure I didn't fuck up with my TI-83.

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>>33535311
>.308 winchester with a mass of 150g
NUCLEAR PROPELLANT

>>33535269
> Momemtum

If I'm remembering correctly, and it has been a long time, pressure = energy / volume. So velocity must be squared.

>>33535311
15.4 grains to 1 gram, mate. Jesus, be careful if you ever start to reload.

>>33535337
Yup I'm retarded. Kek.

That would bring it down to around 3,500 ish?

>>33535366
15 miles per hour is 6.7 meters per second.
A .308 bullet is like 8g.

0.5*62*6.7^2 = ~1.4kJ

0.5*0.008*880^2 = ~3kJ

>>33535366

Linebacker = 100kg * 6.7ms ^ 2 = 4489KE
.308 = .011kg * 881ms ^ 2 = 7761KE
.223 = .005kg * ~800ms ^ 2 = 3200KE

>>33535311
>make sure I didn't fuck up with my TI-83.

Think you'd better stick with the 30X for now breh

>>33535396
You're off by a factor of two.

Pressure is force per area, and isn't a function of penetration.

>>33535390
>>33535396

Fuck, not only did you beat me, but I forgot the 1/2.

>>33535412
Either way the generalization in >>33535191
roughly holds up

>>33535311

All those number are pretty hilariously off.
Try again when you're sober.

>>33535429
That's probably for the best.

>>33535408
> Pressure isn't a function of penetration
You mean I've been sharpening my knives for nothing all this time? Fuck.

>>33535039
>I do dare.

I told you not to anon

>An 8-month study in Iraq performed in 2010 and published in 2011 reports on autopsies of 30 gunshot victims struck with high-velocity (greater than 2500 fps) rifle bullets.[25] In all 30 cases, autopsies revealed injuries distant from the main wound channel due to hydrostatic shock. The authors determined that the lungs and chest are the most susceptible to distant wounding, followed by the abdomen.

Just the wiki page alone will provide you with enough data to compel any reasonable person, that shock wave and shearing forces cause remote damage.

There are one or two staunch denial researchers, and their credentials are absolutely dwafed by the affirmative arguers

shits real yo

>>33534939

Perhaps the shock from fragmenting 5.56 or hollowpoint 7.62x39 would be a sufficient "manstopper" for putting someone down with trauma? If not, why not just use 9mm carbines/pistols for home defense, or go all the way up to a 12 gauge?

>>33535180
>What in your day to day life is going to impart that much kinetic energy into you at once?

Ever play a sport?
A baseball or hockey puck; about the same as an intermediate cartridge.

Football tackle on a crossing route; same as a magnum rifle

>Getting hit by a truck?

Jesus man, how fast? A full speed pedestrian vs Truck (40+ mph) is more like a grenade going off in your arms

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>>33533417


The image is a bit misleading to the question, the bottom picture is an illustration of what rifle FMJ would do. The article you referenced is about the army evaluating hollowpoints PISTOL ammo.

What that that said, hollowpoints are useful in pistol calibers because the size of handguns place limitations on how much energy you can put behind a bullet. With penetration and energy already compromised, it can be more productive to create damage by projectile expansion.

>>33535474
Fackler and?

>>33533483
And a .22 bounces around inside the head until the brain is shredded.

>>33533474
>FMJ causes exit wounds, which obviously cause more bleeding.
no
>JHP often fail to reach vital organs.
no

bait

this whole thread is bait

I saw this thread this morning and its still up and its bait
>>33535467
no because the sharper edge reduces the area the force acts on

>>33535408
>Pressure is force per area, and isn't a function of penetration.

Actually it is. Like word for word, pressure is the major component of penetration in any physical system. Gas, Liquid, Solid, and any combination thereof.

What would make you think otherwise for fucks sake?

>>33533417
Hollow point, or dum-dum rounds are against the Geneva Convention.

I think the main reason is that people here on /k/ aren't in the "killing people" business. So, we wouldn't advocate for bullets that are more lethal.

>>33535474
Followed the wikipedia links. IMO, you should start using the studies by Suneson and Wang instead. A sample size of 30 probably isn't as good of evidence as actually recordings of apnea, depressed brain readings, and physical trauma in repeated shootings of pigs.

But yeah, I'll admit it looks like it's real.

>>33535583

Duncan MacPherson, a Mechanical Engineer graduated in the mid 50s from MIT, which gives him about zero credibility in the domain of ballistic effects on human anatomy. Relentless elf promoter of a book he wrote that refutes hydrostatic shock. He knows hes wrong but can never admit it because hes a stubborn senile old fuckwad. Not a medical doctor, not a physicist, not a research scientist, Master of Mechanical engineering, back in the 50s.

UW Patrick. Who has a BA in Political science from the 50s and was a special agent. Also a paid speaker and author with a stubborn and genuinely self interested motive for clinging to disproven bullshit that he wrote without any domain expertise.

So thats at least three stubborn old fudds with no applicable credentials. Your average soil scientist has more applicable knowledge today.

>>33534578
Most of the torso is free of major arteries. Severing an artery isn't a guaranteed to instantly incapacitate anyway.

>>33535664
>Hollow point, or dum-dum rounds are against the Geneva Convention.

You're too stupid, I must end your progenitor status now.

I'm going to murder your family
Geneva convention has NOTHING, zero to do with tactics or battle.

You are thinking of the Hague convention, particularly an article therof, which was never signed by the United states.

STOP saying this retarded fudd bullshit. I'm only going to kill your family, but if you keep this shit up, I will poison you radiologically so that you suffer americanium poisoning until you die.

>>33534227
thanks pham

>>33535793
>A sample size of 30 probably isn't as good of evidence as actually recordings of apnea, depressed brain readings, and physical trauma in repeated shootings of pigs

Admittedly, it's low hanging fruit to go with battlefield studies.

I've seen a .45-70 vs hog enough times to know that distant wounding is a very very real thing, and the Suneson, Wang studies are just what I'm talking about.

>>33533900
>12 gsws a day
Jeeesus, where do you live/work and thanks for your cervix.

>>33535474
Oh hey, anons that aren't stuck in the 00s when it comes to terminal ballistics this is weird.

Courtney and Courtney have a lot of great papers on the subject, everything from metaanalysis oh hydrostatic shock papers in general up to and including papers where they pick apart fackler for being a closed minded fudd.

http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/woundballistics.html

>>33536270
awesome link

>In 1954, Ochsner reported results of experiments in goats comparing high-speed projectile impacts to the thigh with a small high-explosive charge taped to the same location.
science!

>>33534395
Ah, Henry Ford. The old gun'n'knife club.