What do you think of .40 S&W?

>>33529048
10mm is better

>>33529048
It's overpriced. That's the only problem I have with it.

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>>33529048
For some reason, I find the slow, steady decline of the 40 S&W humorous.

>A few newer pistols don't even bother to offer it.
>mfw

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>>33529068
Wut. I mean it's 30 bucks more than blazer 124gr 9mm per 1k.

45acp for example is 260 per 1k.

Its really not that expensive.

>>33529048
It's not as good as muh superior .45ACP

Rather have .357 desu

>>33529048
If it was commonly available at <$10 a box like 9mm 115gr brass case, Id be a 40 cal guy, But it's not, so I'm a 9mm guy instead

>>33529048
Every day someone gives up on it is another day 10mm gains a convert

>>33529453
You should be a 22lr guy.

>>33529048
I don't know why one would chose .40 S&W over 9mm.

>lower magazine capacity
>snappier recoil
>more expensive

Sure, it's marginally more powerful and hollow point bullets have a slightly wider expanded diameter but in real world self-defense situations that doesn't make much difference.

>>33529615
By that logic we should all use pmr30s

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>>33529048
I like it, despite the lady boys here it is better at penetrating, which is what actually matters in self-defense. It does that while also expanding better and transferring more energy.

Respond to my bait, I fucking dare you.

>>33529620
At some point a round can be underpowered for self defense applications. 9mm is generally considered adequate, .380 is generally considered barely adequate, less than .380 is generally considered inadequate.

If you really desire something with more stopping power than 9mm then why would you choose .40 S&W which is only marginally more powerful instead of a magnum handgun cartridge or 10mm auto?

>>33529048
I think...
That it thinks...
Therefore, it is.
>hey, fotay here. You want to know what I REALLY think? For starts, the tenmilmemesterfaggut who thinks he needs to start the daily "I hate .40s&w cos: muh twinkboi limpitty wrists cannot into handle the powah guise" should start into think hanging from rubed up 550 noose in shitter (door shut) so everyone finds him after his good deed is succeed is only mission for tomorrow
Told u ladyboybishes. It has the power... to think for itself.
>hey, fotay here, out.

>>33529063
seconded.

>>33529615
California.
Fuck capacity, who needs it? I only want 10.... only :/

It sounds like a meme round since it's got a reputation for being a 10auto short but technically it seems like it is better to compare it to a 9auto.
A mag of 40 and a mag of 9, one has an extra bullet or two, but I don't see one or two extra bullets out performing the individual increase of each 40 round and if you're already at the bottom of a mag I don't think those last two are going to make up and perform any better than the first +dozen rounds.
I don't know where people are finding all these cheap police trade ins they brag about but I'd snatch up a 40 if I found a cheap one right away.

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>>33531198
>Fuck capacity, who needs it?
Bill Ruger pls go back to hell and stay there

>>33529640
>.40
>just a bit more powerful than 9mm
.40 is more powerful than 9 and .45 for the most common loads

The real question is: Why would anyone buy .45acp if you have more capacity AND energy in .40?

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>>33531501
MUH FREEDUMBS MUTHAFUCKA

>>33529048
Best self defense round on the market.

>>33531565
>this is literally how fuddy fives think

Just dropped in to remind everyone that 10mm is no good for self defense.

Commercial 10mm loads are basically .40S&W with the exception of hot hard cast loads, which are good for penetrating deep into big animals but subprime for defense against humans.

There are no good bonded 10mm bullets that won't get shredded by the velocity of a hot load on contact. Bad mass retention means wasted power.

It's good if you want a bush gun but for self defense you're better off sticking to good bonded .40 loads.

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>>33531680
Reminder that if it weren't for stronk independent womyn, 10mm would be as cheap and common as .40S&W is now and would consequently have a much better variety of loadings.

>le snappy meme

Anyone who says this is just proving their status as a noguns meme repeater.

>>33531725
Ok? That's not the case though.

>>33531743
>That's not the case though.
>it's literally the case
What did he mean by this?

>>33531743
>neet has to do something to fuel ego when life revolves around shit posting
don't feed the trolls

>>33531725
That guy is bad ass and gangsta as fuck.

>>33531783
>notanargument.moly

>>33529063
fpbp

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40sw is fucking great...

>>33529048
Inferior in every way bar price to .357 sig.

>>33531833
>.357 sig
Criminally underrated round. Why did it never catch on?

>>33531846
Because everyone fell for the .40 meme and never look for anything that isn't 9mm or .40.

>>33531846
Because it required a conversion kit and most of the consumer base didn't want to shell out for it.

Don't get me wrong round performs fantasticly, but not very prominent because it requires specific equipment

>>33531833
>>33531846
>>33531965

Still decent availability. Having the ability to change the barrels on my 33 between SIG and .40 has been nice.

>>33531994
It's just a shame Glock and Sig are the only ones that support .357 sig. I wish H&K and Steyr never stopped importing their .357s.

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>>33532036
>M357-A1 is muh cyberpunk aesthetic dream gun
>basically unobtanium
>can't even find a conversion barrel for the .40
Why are the still here? Just to suffer?

>>33532066
They show up on gunbroker at least every 3 months, you just gotta be dedicated.

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>>33532073
>gunbroker
>tfw Canadian
Welp.

>have a .40, a .38, and a 9mm
>like them all
>9mm for CC because muh capacity
>.38 for car gun because it doesn't eject brass into my windshield
>.40 as my duty pistol because of its big frame and 15rnd mags, is a sweetheart to shoot.

>see threads where people who have never shot a .40 constantly shit on it ad nauseum
>shake my head

>>33531501
This. Been asking this question for years. Never got a logical response.

>>33531680
this sounds completely asinine

a .22lr is more than enough to kill a person, what the fuck are you fuckers smoking to say that a bullet is not enough to penetrate a human

seriously, wasted power? seriously is the wasted power so much that it can't kill? for fucks sake

stupidity second only to the guy who said a leather biker jacket can stop bullets

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>>33529640
>less than .380 is generally considered inadequate
>more stopping power
Don't know if you're baiting or not

first handgun was a P226 in .40. Swapped out the barrel for 9mm and have since bought 5 other 9mm handguns. nothing really wrong with .40 per se, its just that you can get 9mm that is just as good but with way more capacity, cheaper ammo, and less recoil

>>33531446
>we could have 20-round Mk. IVs if not for this fudd fuck

>>33531680
>look at me troll
>reddit spacing
home from school early

>>33531501
.45 is uppgradable to super

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>>33529640
lol

Things like temporary cavities or hydrostatic shock or fragmentation or "muh bigger hole" is fucking meme shit. There are only 3 questions you should ask when looking at handgun ammo:

1) Does the bullet have the adequate penetration to reach the heart, lungs, and other vital internal organs?
2) Does the bullet penetrate reliably, and do so reliably from different angles?
3) Is the bullet accurate enough to be reliably placed into the vitals?

These are the only things that matter. There is literally no difference between if a 9mm or .45 penetrated the lungs, or if a .40 caliber hollowpoint entered the heart or if a .38 special FMJ did, etc etc. Any bullet that satisfies these questions, yes perhaps even some loadings of .25 ACP, is adequate for self defense.

This is because ALL handgun calibers are U N I V E R S I A L L Y fucking shit. The micro-fucking variation between 11.43mm and 10mm and 9mm and [insert snowflake caliber here] is so small that it means nothing. Its like comparing dogshit and bullshit; its still fucking shit. Your rifle is for killing people effectively; your handgun is only for when you do not have your rifle.

>>33531419
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SWMP40&name=Smith+%26+Wesson+M%26P+.40+S%26W+cal+Pistol&groupid=8406

>>33534223

People can only be medically incapacitated 2 ways with slug-chuckers (((boolits))).

A brain stem hit - the only instant and 100% guaranteed off switch.

The other way is blood loss. Blood loss via drop in blood pressure is a time-based situation with boolit wounds from handguns, even with a completely perforated heart a human being can physically function up to around 8 seconds - and that's assuming a perfect high thoracic cavity strike - gun fights are very imperfect, you might want to plan on carving out significantly more tissue.

The more tissue you crush and remove the faster blood is lost. More kinetic energy imparts more trauma, generates bigger permanent crush cavities, shatters more bones and drives pieces of those bones further with more energy, lacerating and causing more hemorrhaging.

.40 is wily and recognized as high energy, laws of physics dictate equal and opposite reactions. If your rounds dump more trauma imparting, tissue crushing kinetic energy into the target it's perfectly reasonable to expect more fight from the gun in return.

Typically, for an advanced level shooter (someone at the 60%-75% mark) .40 S&W adds about ~.15 seconds to splits which is proportionally almost exactly how much more energy they dump in to the target than 9x19 (~50% more) - In my opinion it's a side-grade, a fair trade, whatever you want to call it. The numbers actually skew in favor of the .40S&W but as stated I'm also assuming an advanced level of shooting from the operator so there is discrepancy.

>>33534461

In the 90's and early 2000's recording and compiling volumes of anecdotal, individual shootings and their results was a very popular metric. During this time the .40S&W outperformed every other duty caliber in terms of one shot stops.

Yeah, we know now a days that this is not good science, doesn't change the fact that a fuckload of aggressors have been put down right then right there with a single .40S&W

All this said,40 is a complete side grade, you literally exchange the almost exact proportional amount of speed for almost the exact proportional gain in tissue crushing. I'm not saying it's better than 9x19, I'm just really fucking tired of the echo chamber regurgitated one liners tossed around the web like gospel, all because some bureaucratic bean counters at the FBI needed to justify cutting ammo cost and training.

Also don't hold your breath on the complete flushing of 40.

The ice we are on is so thin is will take one high profile incident of an anecdotal nature where someone survives a strike from the current hotness (A La Miami FBI shootout) and we will go back around the merry-go-round of higher energy, more powerful ballistic reasoning.

>>33534223
Basically this.

Everyone buys handguns like they are going to use them for a sustained firefight.

Reality is handguns are defensive weapons and are only meant to get you out of a shitty situation.

9mm, .40, .45, .380, 9x18, they all have different ballistics st range but if you are using one to shoot some idiot climbing through a window at night its all essentially the same.

>b-b-but mug stoppan powuh

If you shoot an assailant with any of the aforementioned rounds they will stop whatever they are doing, I garuntee it.

>b-b-but what if theres a 280 pound hells angel biker on PCP and meth with rabies

Is anyone here REALLY encountering anyone who cant be stopped by taking any of the aforementioned calibers to the torso?

No. The myth of the roided out rage freak who absorbs 20 rounds of 9mm is just anecdotal fudd-lore to justify open carrying a .357 or .44 mag everywhere.

If a mugger or burgaler attacks you pretty much any pistol caliber will get you enough breathing space to run away and call the cops.

>stopped by heavy clothing

Misquoted bullshit. Poorly made hollowpoints can get clogged up with fabric and fail to open, but its still gonna penetrate and the guys still gonna have a bullet wound in his chest.


You can argue caliber all day, what really matters is shot placement.

In other words a well trained marksman with a cheap makarov 9x18 is going to have better results stopping an attacker than a mall ninja with a .357 sig or .45 that hes only ever gone to the range with twice.

I think a lot of the obsession with bigger and bigger calibers is just people trying to replace training and marksmanship with false confidence because they got something that flings flying ash trays down range.

To be clear, im not saying big calibers dont hit harder, im saying for purposes of practical defense scenarios it really doesnt matter all that much.

>>33531501
It's hard to beat that slow, sexy push of a 1911 in .45 at the range as a fun gun.

>>33531725
You forgot the rest of the webm where they have to help the womyn climb it.

>>33534493
Screencap this.

>>33531501
>Why would anyone buy .45acp if you have more capacity AND energy in .40?
Muh "snappy recoil" (mostly a consequence of comparing felt recoil between heavy steel-frame .45s and light polymer-frame .40s)

>>33534262
You mother fucker how did you find this?
Fuck that's about the amount I had set aside to get my ccw permit. It's higher capacity than my 44 should I get one instead of my CCW license? I don['t know what to do here halp

>>33534223
I really try to avoid saying this but penetrating into and through something is a huge fucking difference. A slug going in and not going out... That doesn't seem right to me. I think the thing will suffer too much. I don't want to go into why.

>>33534470
I know man. The anecdotes drive me crazy, I think the most popular one in the late 80's early 90's when cops were switching from 9mm to .45 was

"Dude, some PCP guy raged out and it took 3 magazines of 9mm to stop him, cops gotta cary .45s now cuz the speed freaks are immune to bullets!"

No, cops switched to .45 because there were a few high profile shootings against armored suspects and cops were still carrying 9mm and .38.

Which was silly since .45 doesnt penetrate kevlar any better. In those shootings that were used as anecdotal evidence to change calibers officers armed with .45s wlulda been just as fucked as guys with 9's or .38's. But it made officers feel better to have something bigger. The REAL solution to guys with armor was issuing AR-15s, the .45s were just psychological backup.

Problem is .45 tends to richochet off of windshields from oblique angles and actually has pretty shitty ballistics, the only really good quality of .45 is that it dumps a lot of energy into the target up close, it doesnt really do anything else very well.

So they switched to .40 because its still bigger than 9mm but it would still get through a windshield and has improved ballistic traits over the .45

With modern ballistic science replacing poorly studied anecdote driven decisions it turned out that shot placement is more important than caliber size. Lots of police departments are actually reverting back to 9mm again.

If shot placement is more important than caliber you might as well just have the high capacity of a 9mm and train officers to shoot better instead of loading them up with hand cannons and hoping the one shot they land does the trick. (Seriously, cops have historically been TERRIBLE marksmen, which is the REAL reason behind most examples of failure to stop an agressor)

If caliber size were all important youd think cops would still be packing .357 mag colt pythons and shit like they did in the 70's.

>>33534683
So 10mm and .357SIG are the future of pistol cartridges and everything else is on the wrong side of fuddstory, I'm glad we agree.

>>33534725
>So 10mm and .357SIG are the future of pistol cartridges
not really, neither penetrates soft body armour any better than 9mm. NIJ lvl3a is rated for even 44mag. however, steel core 9mm AP could pen it.

>>33534867
>penetrates soft body armour
FN, you were right all along!

>>33534493
>implying you own a darringer

>>33534896
>FN, you were right all along!
I'm not shilling for 5iveseve7 but armor penetration has been cited above and the North Hollywood shootout was a defining moment for modern LEOs. bigger bullets don't help.

>>33529113
So why does .40 pretty much universally have a flat bullet tip?

>>33531725
lol at the chick in the back
"how the fuck this guy with one arm and one leg can do this shit and I can't?"

>>33531725
Damn that was impressive.
I couldn't in a million years do a pullup like that with one arm

>>33534683
Hello cancer.
>45 doesn't have enough stopping power
>9 has Superior capacity
Why do you write so much filler words in between your bullshit?

>>33534725
maybe if people had an actual reason to phase out 9mm which they don't

9mm will be used until gunpowder is made obsolete

>>33529048
My .40 is much snappier than my .45.

>>33535052
faster burret means more snap.

>>33535052
it's a slightly more powerful cartridge in a slightly lighter gun

>>33529048
10mm>.357mag>9mm=.45=.357 sig>.40S&W

Three in the middle are all pick your poison with each having slight benefits over the others. .40S&W could be there too if it wasnt for the fact that i feel it combines more negatives of each round than positives.

.357 sig is notably if only slightly better than 45/9 at post barrier performance. 45 produces something like 20-25% more wound volume than .357 or 9. 9mm has dat capacity and low recoil while doing everything else adequately.

>>33535135
.357's great and all but it's still a low-pressure rimmed revolver cartridge. Why not Buffalo Bore .357 sig?

>>33529048
Pointlessly controversial, mostly because its users seem to think it's some sort of godly earth-shattering magnum compared to 9mm when all it really is a negligible increase in power in exchange for a negligible decrease in capacity.

>>33534946
Ar-15s defeat soft body armor just fine, and every cop has one specifically for that purpose.

Fiveseven is a neat cartridge but its trying to fix a problem thats already been solved.

Tactically speaking an armored assailant is not just going to randomly pop out of the bushes, they are going to be robbing a bank or shooting up a shopping mall.

They are probably going to have a long-arm of some sort and any cop who throws himself into the encounter without grabbing his AR from the rack next to his seat first is probably fucked anyways.

Having a pistol that can defeat armor in that situation isnt going to be much of an asset to him, hes gonna need a rifle.

Its still a neat gun but the reason it hasnt and probably wont become the new hot ticket cop caliber is because AR-15s exist.

>>33534996
What are you talking about?

I specifically said .45 has stopping power. Thats literally ALL the .45 has.

And if you think shot placement and capacity is cancer and throws sand in yer vag you can take it up with all the government agencies re-adopting 9mm for specifically those reasons.

Or im guessing you are some luddite who moans about how the M9 shouldnt have ever replaced the 1911 (again, for exactly the reasons I stated).

It aint cancer if its true.

>>33534949
Because it was made to fit the same OAL as 9mm, but with a heavier bullet which necessitates a flat wide meplat.

Incidentally thats a good thing

>>33531565
Kek

>>33535052
Because one is higher pressure and nearly as heavy a projectile. It's snappier, but that doesn't mean much as long as you know your gun

the only reason i have a .40 S&W is because competition dictates that as the minimum caliber.

>>33535135
People say this, but the .40 has a 135gr-200gr selection to play with and the 135s as fast as fuck, as in .357sig turf.

>>33535197
Are you retarded

>>33535482
Yeah, I got a hold of some 150 grain frangibles to play with recently.

Clocked em at 1150 fps at the muzzle. If you want a .45 that doesnt have the super slow wallowing ballistic nature of typical .45 I reccomend light grain ammo.

>>33535482
No, I'm not retarded. For all intents and purposes, the "load versatility" of .357 magnum is meaningless if only used as a duty cartridge. The typical law enforcement load was a 125 grain going at 1450, .357 Sig originally wanted to recreate this in a semi-auto platform but these days .357 sig loads are watered down except for some exceptions like Buffalo Bore

>>33535285
But it doesn't have stopping power. It has the memetic reputation of stopping power, just like glock perfection or AK reliability

>>33534461
>>33534470

The Temporary stretch cavities you are talking about literally do not exist in projectiles slower than 2000 feet per second.

The quickest way to cause incapacitate via loss in blood pressure is the destruction of the vital organs, such as the heart, lungs, liver, etc, via the permanent crush cavity, aka the actual path of the bullet as it travels through the body. The size of the bullet matters in the size of the permanent crush cavity, but the difference in instantaneous loss in blood pressure between a .355 or .357 or .45 diameter hole is so small as to be irreverent. Really, the size of the permanent crush cavity does really even matter so long as it is there, for the majority of tissue encountered doesn't bleed enough to cause a instantaneous loss in blood pressure UNLESS you strike a critical organ that is dense in blood vessels.

Also "energy dump" is bullshit. You can have a bullet "dump" of all its "energy" into the first couple inches of tissue (ie. most """high performance""" hollowpoints) and not be fatal or even truly incapacitating because it doesn't have the penetration to reach the internal organs with their very very densely packed blood vessels and thus is literally just a flesh wound.

>>33535553
And yet you compare a duty load, to a boutique auto cartridge that doesn't have the same case capacity which maxs out at 180gr around 1000fps for the heavy stuff. We can cherry pick shit all day if you really want, and LE doesn't have to worry about watered down bullshit, neither does anyone with the Internet

>>33535592
>The Temporary stretch cavities

where in what I wrote did I bring up temporary cavities?

I explicitly stated crush cavities, IE permanent cavities.

I'm sure the rest of your post is equally banal and facile, ignored.

>>33535567
This is true, with modern 9mm ammo you can get ft lbs equivalent to .45.

Corbon +p 9mm puts you at about 466 ft lbs muzzle velocity which is about what your average .45 acp.

Granted some .45 +p loads can push 500, but at that point you arent really achieving anything high enough to really justify lower capacity and heavier recoil.

People talk about 9mm like 115 grain FMJ from ww2 is still what modern 9mm cartridges for defense purposes are being made as.

Today I watched a ballistics test, it was 9mm HPR black ops frangibles vs .45 of the same make.

Both achieved 11 inches penetration, both had a 2 inch wide permanant wound cavity, the only difference was the temporary cavity and thats not nearly as important as the permant wound channel.

To get the true legendary stoppan powuh from a .45 you reeeeaaaallly gotta be running some hot loads.

>>33535610
It obviously doesn't have the same power or versatility of .357 mag. But that 125 gr 1450? It sounds more practical to me than something that produces 750+ ftlbs. If only manufacturers actually stayed true to that standard.

By the way it doesn't have the same case capacity, but it's generally loaded to higher pressures and the bottleneck design is a nice plus. Not to mention the 15 round capacity

>>33535698
>responds to post
>"btw im ignoring you"

Thats stupid. You're stupid.

>>33535727
Ignoring a guy who can not participate a sequitur logical conversation and explaining why is the exact opposite of being stupid, I refuse to suffer mouth breathers, I'd rather debate the wind, but it's useful to call a spade a spade, even if they are too fucking dense to realize it.

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>>33535781
What you THINK using archaic big words makes you look like.

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>>33535829
Vs how you actually sound.

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>be me
>live and die by 9 or 45 only
>never owned a .40, shot it only once
>apply for border patrol agent
>I take the entrance exam, physical and medical, get tentative selection
>panic when I learn they carry DAO variant P2000s in .40
>buy the first .40 I see at the gun show for basically what one of the dealers offered him for it
>get a almost unfurled FNX 40 for 225

It feels disgusting but I don't want to make an ass out of myself at FLETC

>>33529048
Pointless carry round for most EDC options, however, I'd argue that it is probably much better for penetrating barriers like car doors and windshields, so I can see it being an effective option for highway patrol and troopers and the like.

>>33535716
It HAS to have a higher pressure because it has less volume. The pressure means fuck all if the velocity is the same

>>33535698
You described temporary cavities in your post. Permanent crush cavities don't expand or work like you described, and I assumed that you were well versed enough to know that.

>>33536029
which is why I said that the Mag's peak levels are not all that practical. The Federal 125gr is the "Gold Standard"

>>33535197
because .357 mag can hit 1700fps out of a 4" barrel while .357 sig usually like 1450-1500. according to some experts its in this 1500-2000fps range where expanding rounds tend to have a noticeably better wounding effect and stopping effect.

>>33535482
MUH SECTIONAL DENSITY AND I FUCKING HATE .40
~~~~
HYDROSTATIC SHOCK, MYTH OR MUST?!?!?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock_(firearms)

>>33535843
Godspeed, future bean remover.

>>33531846
$1.50 every time you fire a round.... that's too fucking much

short and weak

I prefer .22 magnum for my CC

>>33536601
>I prefer .22 magnum for my CC
I kind of want a 22mag revolver for when i'm forced to pocket carry but the DA pulls on them tend to be nasty

>>33532133
This.

>>33536379
>"The FBI recommends that loads intended for self-defense and law enforcement applications meet a minimum penetration requirement of 12 inches (300 mm) in ballistic gelatin and explicitly advises against selecting rounds based on hydrostatic shock effects"

Hmm.... sooooo shot placement IS important NOT temporary wound cavity.

>>33535710
you seem to be doing a lot of cherry picking here, underwoods got 185s pushing about 592ftlbs or 27% more energy. also top of the line .45 JHPs create 38% more wound volume than top of the line 9mm JHPs in BG(both HST in this case).

>>33536936
hmmm, what's the term for this fallacy? oh yea, false dilemma. you're pretending im advocating for ignoring the 12" minimum in favor of like RIP ammo or something when ive said no such thing. it's best to look at penetration, expansion, your ability to handle a round, and then consider energy as an afterthought imho

>>33529518
No, it means 9mm gains a convert and 10mm continues to be fucking overpriced

>>33537037
Fuck you, stupid bitch. You probably couldn't afford milk for nigger babies.

>>33529615
>I don't know why one would chose .40 S&W over 9mm.

Because it's fun.

>>33529453
Sums me up quite well, tbqfh famalam

>>33531419
You're forgetting single stacks, bruh

>>33531846
>.357 sig
>overpriced
>requires conversion
>sig sauer made no effort to get other manufacturers to adopt it because that wanted their own little meme round all to themselves

>>33536948
What im saying is that 38% percent more wound volume over an already lethal wound volume is not exactly a massive bonus worthy of the sacrifices one has to make to other factors like capacity, controllability etc etc.

The current school of thought in law enforcement is that if 9mm is already getting the job done for killing shit then why sacrifice mag capacity and recoil control in exchange for more stopping power?

You cant make somebody 38% more dead.

But I think ive gotten away from my original point in which I never stated higher calibers dont hit harder, only an idiot would claim that.

My original point is that just because theres something that can hit harder doesnt mean what you got already is suddenly incapable of doing the job.

For self defense purposes planting a .380, 9mm, .40, or .45 into an assailant is going to do the trick just fine, .45 hits harder, yes, but its not like that is the ONLY factor that goes into choosing a cartridge, or that something lighter penetrating a guys chest somehow magically contains less fuck you than a .45

Ive been in gunfights in the middle east. When people get shot they go down on thier ass and begin seriously contemplating thier impending mortality. Even from relativley low powered hits.

Shit, I saw an ANA guy take a hit to the chest from a 7.62x39 fired 850-900 meters away. At those ranges thats about 195 foot pounds.

You know what he did? According to /k/ since it wasnt atleast 450 foot pounds of energy he mustve just gotten off with some light bruising right?

Nope. It severed his aeorta and he fuckin died.

Shot placement over impact energy, impact energy. Thats my point. You can fire light shit, as long as you hit them in the right spot they are gonna go down just as well almost regardless of what you hit them with.

>>33529048
For fags who can't make head shots so they say they need a bigger caliber for stopping power.

>>33536999
I was agreeing with you.... I copied and pasted it from the example YOU POSTED.

or did you not read your own source?

>>33537046
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills.

I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words.

You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands.

Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue.

But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.

You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

>>33529113
>Shooting Blazer

kek

>>33534493
>If a mugger or burgaler attacks you pretty much any pistol caliber will get you enough breathing space to run away and call the cops.

I feel better about my .25acp carry piece.

>>33531725
He could have just heel hooked and pulled up with two points of contact. I think he was just showing off to all those weak useless bitches.

>>33534982
He is missing two body parts so he's light than the average human, and the adaptation of the human body is incredible. His right arm is definitely strong as fuck to make up for missing the other one. You surely could achieve that with a heavily biased strength training regimen that focuses on one limb. I'm almost there but I aint missing any limbs and my dedication is less than stellar.

A .40 is better than 9mm, but is still isn't a .45

>>33537211
You are correct it's better than .45

File: Calgon.jpg (13KB, 398x307px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 398x307px

>>33531501
>>33532153

There isn't a good reason. Every time the .45 fags are losing this argument they go "B-But suppressors!" as if they: 1. own a suppressed handgun 2. don't understand that .40 is also frequently subsonic and can be suppressed just as well.
And then we get "half-inch hole, can't argue with that!" as if the human body is comprised of ballistics gelatin and has no elasticity.
"Hi-dro statik shawk!" - not in a handgun.

>>33537124
I was merely pointing out that your examples seemed to imply that .45acp rounds and 9mm rounds produce the same energy levels and wound cavities these days due to advances in bullet tech. so i offered counter examples as to how this isn't necessarily the case. also, while i agree you cant make something 38% more dead, a 38% larger wound may certainly make something dead quicker, or damage a structure that a smaller wound wouldnt.

>>33537136
My bad, i thought you were trying argue by implying hydrostatic shock cant be real because the FBI says so(like in the quote) and/or that one should disregard energy entirely.

to be fair though that ellipse, drawn out so, and saying that cavitation isnt important do seem a little argue-y

>>33532133
My CC is .40 S&W, and find it pretty much comparable to another friend's CC 9mm, which only has 2 rounds more fully loaded (my 15rd mag vs his 17rd).

"Snappy" must be from the bitches of wrists, as I find no real difference

>>33532097
>dat trigger discipline hnnnng

>>33535135
Standard factory loadings for 10mm are below standard loadings for factory .357 Magnum in ft/lbs of energy. This applies to boutique ammo as well. Go look at Buffalo Bore's posted numbers for their .357 Magnum loads versus their 10mm ones. The strongest 10mm loading they have is almost 100 ft/lbs of energy lower.

>>33537451
i considered "not being stuck in the era of revolvers" a deciding factor there

>>33532066
>goy

>>33537377
To be specific, the FBI doesnt say its not a factor, theyre saying penetration is a more important one.

Hydrostatic shock is difficult to measure and has varying effects on different victims. Its a factor, but an unpredictable one whereas penetration damage to organs and blood loss are very predictable ways to garuntee a kill.

I wasnt tryin to say .45 is underpowered so much as demonstrate that upper end 9mm ammo hits about the same energy levels as an average .45 round.

Not sayin .45 is weak, just sayin 9mm isnt. If people prefer heavier they arent wrong in going for it. People who insist that because theres bigger something smaller is inherently inferior based on only 1 factor are wrong tho.

If it makes me seem like less of 9mm fanboi my carry piece is a .45, but I wouldnt feel under-gunned with a 9mm. For years my carry piece was a PA-63 loaded with cor-bon +p and I felt perfectly safe against assailants with it.

>>33534949
A flat point is the most damaging profile. All big bore hand gun rounds for hunting have this profile.

>>33537523
Not even close to why. Its because they wanted it to have a similar OAL to 9mm for feeding and ejecting purposes so they made it flatter on the nose.

>>33537523
no, it's because of lever actions

>>33537558
but the 10mm also has a flat point

>>33531846
Should never have existed. .356TSW was perfect and S&W fucked themselves with .40 + competition rules

>>33534223

This guy gets it. All these chucklefucks arguing about subtle nuances in wound channels while ignoring how wildly inaccurate people are in self defense shootings.

Eliminate calibers that don't meet the minimum standards, and then select the one with the highest capacity that you can shoot the most accurate/fast with. When you're going to miss 90% of your shots, a few extra rounds is far more meaningful than a statistically insignificant wound channel increase.

It's the year of our lord 2017. The time to stop splitting hairs over handgun calibers has long passed. Compare them to rifles and you'll understand how meaningless it is.

>>33534223
>Things like temporary cavities or hydrostatic shock or fragmentation or "muh bigger hole" is fucking meme shit.

I disagree. I think the pressure waves can fuck with nerves and stun vital organs. If someone flicked your heart with their finger you might not lose any blood but it certainly wouldn't feel good and might make you double over in pain, if it didn't stop beating. It can take some people people a good while to pass out from blood loss, but some people we see get shot drop on the spot, whether because the bullet made them pass out or the shockwave and cavitation made them really know and feel that they had been shot. I'm sure it can be quite demoralizing.

>>33540890
This has been heavily discussed and dissmissed by government researchers as a factor one should use in selecting a round.

Its unpredictable and effects different individuals in different ways. The the effect is also just shy of impossible to accuratley measure and quantify.

Penetration and wound channel created are the standard measured to select a round. Min 11 inches, max 18 inches with a 2 inch permanant wound channel.

Pretty much every handgun caliber from 9mm up is capable of this performance.

Why I carry .40 instead of 9,45, or 10:

The glock 27 is a smaller gun than the comparable 45 and 10mm subcompacts. It's more powerful than the 9mm glock 26 and exactly the same size. Boo hoo I lose 1 magazine capacity. I'm not a bitch so I don't need a soft shooting 9mm.

I shoot 45 in my full frame gun (para p14.45) instead of 10mm because 45 is subsonic so it'll suppress much better when I get around to making a silencer for it.

>>33543392
most people can handle .40 recoil just fine, but no one shoots a .40 quicker than a 9mm of similar size. It's just physics.

>>33543392
actually with the larger bore diameter it will actually suppress less well than a 9mm, 40, or 10mm would with subsonic loads

>>33532816
CA doesn't get mk IV at all

>>33543458
this, 9mm 147gr all day erryday

>>33543487
Why, because the Mk. II was in a how-to hitman book?

>>33537083
Objectionable wrong in every aspect, and though it may cost more, your understanding if economics doesn't mean it's overpriced

>>33536379
Cool article. Wtf does that have to do with anything I posted. Being able to work with a wide range if projectiles allows one to better choose how they want the bullet to work, since construction and weight are factors in a projectile performance

>>33544940
nothing, the wall of tilde was supposed to separate it from the rest of the comment just thought id drop it in here and watch the fur fly

>>33534223
>Your rifle is for killing people effectively; your handgun is only for when you do not have your rifle.

This absolutely.

That kid in florida that killed 3 armed home invaders recently, 3 shots 3 kills with an AR 15 is just further proof of that. kek