Different range methods or cultures? Training issue at the range

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>>33447093
I have a problem at the range.
[Apologies if I get some terms wrong -- I'm not a native English speaker. All corrections are welcome]

1. I started browsing /k/ while I was abroad, and couldn't get my hands on a proper gun.
2. Once back home, I enrolled in a safety course (which is mandatory, for the range subscription). At the end of the course, they me shoot at stuff with .22 Long Rifle... both pistol (10 m) and rifle (50 m). Nothing special. I landed some good shots and it was piece of cake.

## RANGE 1 ##

3. Now I have been training with small calibres (airsoft guns with more than 7.5 J power). Nothing special, again, but I must admit it hooked me up:
>old guys are extremely helpful
>they are expert and train for competitions
>they will also take me to fire .22 again once I get good enough with the 10 metres pistol
>I get to pay less and less subscription as my results get higher
>They keep supervising my results and give me suggestions to improve
>free gun magazines for all
>everything is computerized, but you can also shoot the good old paper-targets
>I improved and even got to some competitions
>once you get your own pellets and pay for the spot, they give you a gun out of their storage. Basically, since I subscribed, I got my own gun, which is the one I use most of the time. It's a bit as if it had my name on it. Expenses are reduced to a minimum
>Everyone is friendly, etc.

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>>33447106
## RANGE 2 ##

>Same range, but different section: big calibres
>I got my permit to carry (useful also for small calibres)
>I decide to go to this section to celebrate
>Permit is not yet in my pocket, so basically I can shoot only at the range: I pay for the spot and they let me use a gun for free if I buy ammo at their counter
>fuck that, it's super-expensive
>I get to shoot a Glock (9x21)
>I had already shot a Beretta (9 mm short) at a target 10 m away from me
>Now I ask to set the target at 25 m (as it is customary)
>I inquire what is the kind of training one is supposed to do -- e.g. how does a standard competition look like, are there rules, etc. Range master says you just go there and shoot. No competition rules, no special training sequence (WTF?)
>I miss all the shots (they're all gathered in a line just below the black circle). But that's expected, isn't it? Ballistic is different... Trigger is different; iron sights are different... my second time with a 9x21 mm, etc.
>I can hardly see where each shot lands because, although there is a camera, its quality is very low
>It is all extremely annoying

Now, what pisses me off is that at the small calibre's they explain me everything and they also give me drills and instructions (e.g. "anon, it's time to carry on some quantitative training. You'll have to fire 100 shots aiming at the same spot on a blank target and, over time, you will reduce your dispersion" -- just to make an example).
At the big calibres, it is not clear what your purpose is, because the supervisors there do not teach people... they don't even tell you how a competition might look like (e.g. how many shots are there in a competition, etc.).

>>33447093
Just point the loaded gun at your target. If you hit where you want to, then call it great and continue to do what you were doing.

If you don't hit where you want to, think about what you're doing wrong and make modifications until you make it right. That's it.

Or just take CCW classes.

>>33447125
Okay, but at the small calibre we used to do specific breathing, plus exercises for trigger control.
Also, we had different types of targets (e.g. you can shoot at a vertical black line if you want to reduce your left-to-right dispersion, etc.).

On top of that, we are very careful at how you put your feet, because it can vary the angle... and just with those things I manage to get above 8/10 (low-tier, yet okay for a starter).

Here at the big calibre, I am not even sure how to regulate the iron sights or what is the reason I am doing wrong (is it my action on the trigger? Am I too tense? Am I holding the gun correctly?).

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Let's say I started as a
>guest
But don't want to become a
>reckless noob

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>>33447118
>Range master says you just go there and shoot. No competition rules, no special training sequence (WTF?)

So you can set your own guidelines and form. Try some of these if they don't violate your range safety rules. Work on accuracy and rapid (but accurate) cadence of fire. The centerfire section is for personal defense and hobby, not regimented competition like a lot of smallbore handguns.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrRQ__gsOAs09EMBuYlJbFiz155LFz1_j

>I miss all the shots (they're all gathered in a line just below the black circle). But that's expected, isn't it? Ballistic is different... Trigger is different; iron sights are different... my second time with a 9x21 mm, etc.

Italy? Czech Republic? Anyway, they're consistently below your target because often times full size combat handguns require aiming like #2 or #3 on the picture while many target pistols including .22s are adjusted for #1.

>>33447291
>So you can set your own guidelines and form.
Exactly my idea.
>Try some of these if they don't violate your range safety rules. Work on accuracy and rapid (but accurate) cadence of fire. The centerfire section is for personal defense and hobby, not regimented competition like a lot of smallbore handguns.
So there are no actual "competitions".
>https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrRQ__gsOAs09EMBuYlJbFiz155LFz1_j
Thank you. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for.
>Italy? Czech Republic?
Italy. How could you tell? By the fact they rent guns at the range? Or by my use of language? I thought of being more specific, but didn't want to advertise that.
>Anyway, they're consistently below your target because often times full size combat handguns require aiming like #2 or #3 on the picture while many target pistols including .22s are adjusted for #1.
Holy shit I kept aiming like #1. Fuck that I am dense

>>33447093
Run your 3 F.A.S.T. cold when you hit the range, then do a dot torture, do a few bill drills and el prezidentes, finish the day with a few 5 or 10 round groups

>>33447345
Italy is one of the few countries that ban 9x19mm and enforce 9x21mm for civilian gun owners. The only other countries I can think of would be in Central/South America but you wouldn't be talking about carry permits in those countries unless you were a politician or a judge receiving private instruction from police instructors.

I didn't even know Italy had carry permits available to shooters, I thought that was generally a Czech Republic thing, but they don't ban 9x19mm.

>So there are no actual "competitions".
There are, but there's still a stigma regarding action pistol shooting as too combat-oriented and not a pure marksmanship sport like ISSF 25m pistol. The way targets are set up might also present a safety issue depending on how the backstop is designed.

You might have trouble finding it, but see if you have IPSC or IDPA competition clubs near you, that's how most people compete with full bore handguns.
http://www.idpa.com/compete/clubsearch
http://www.fitds.it/

It's very different from smallbore though, the targets are generally torso size rather than bullseyes that require extensive breathing and shot control. You'll be running around too much to punch perfect tiny neat centered holes, but that's the nature of combat handgun shooting.

>>33447485
>running more than one F.A.S.T. at the beginning
It's a pretty shitty drill, but it's a great skills test, do one at the beginning and one at the end of the range day to measure your improvement.

It's a shitty drill because you shoot precision (head) shots before center of mass, which is backwards from most realistic uses of a handgun.

That does make it great as an independent skill test that doesn't let you rely on autopilot, but practicing too much with it could mess up your decision-making under stress.

>>33447485
>Run your 3 F.A.S.T. cold when you hit the range, then do a dot torture, do a few bill drills and el prezidentes, finish the day with a few 5 or 10 round groups
I am watching the video. Not sure they'll let me do that for safety reasons.
I'll have to first demonstrate some static skills... then I will be able to join the dynamic shooting classes... and eventually I will get to do some special drills.

>but you wouldn't be talking about carry permits in those countries unless you were a politician or a judge receiving private instruction from police instructors.
>I didn't even know Italy had carry permits available to shooters, I thought that was generally a Czech Republic thing, but they don't ban 9x19mm.
In Italy it is easier than Central/South America... but anyway I chose the wrong terms. When I was talking about "permit to carry" -- well, it is actually a "permit to transport" (to and from the range or to and from private households).
I don't need a permit to own (just need to declare it).
I need a permit to carry if I use it for sports.
I need a permit to "carry/bear" (concealed or not) if I want to use it for self defence.
>There are, but there's still a stigma regarding action pistol shooting as too combat-oriented and not a pure marksmanship sport like ISSF 25m pistol. The way targets are set up might also present a safety issue depending on how the backstop is designed.
I mean, we don't even have human-like targets. I saw your videos and I thought: where would I get such a target (with bone and flesh showing) unless I craft my own?
>You might have trouble finding it, but see if you have IPSC or IDPA competition clubs near you, that's how most people compete with full bore handguns.
I'll start looking into it.
>You'll be running around too much to punch perfect tiny neat centered holes, but that's the nature of combat handgun shooting.
I don't care if that is the nature of the thing. Apparently, I cannot cut salami with a longsword.

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>>33447755
More on this:
>In Italy it is easier than Central/South America... but anyway I chose the wrong terms. When I was talking about "permit to carry" -- well, it is actually a "permit to transport" (to and from the range or to and from private households).
Basically, our "permits to carry" = permit to carry in a certain area / for certain purposes

Hunting is an example. Try to get a permit to carry and bear a rifle at the mall -- except you can if you're on your way to the hunting fields (which is pretty much anything except parks, because IF YOU HAVE A HUNTING LICENCE YOU ARE ALLOWED TO CARRY WEAPONS AND TRESPASS INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S PROPERTY. Fucking absurd law).

Another example is sport shooting:
>permit to transport to and from the shooting place + permit to carry within the range (even a private range. If you don't have such a permit, you may carry only within a public range and only after having taken a course and subscribed to it).

Finally:
>permit to carry for self-defence
Super lol because regardless of what it is meant to be, you still have to put your handgun in a locked bag whenever you board a ship, a plane, a train, or a wildlife park.
>implying nobody would attack me on a train
LOL

Also:
>permit to carry
>it is a legal ID, whereas your driving licence isn't
>2017
>still bigger than your wallet

>>33447834
Sorry, I'm from the US so for me "permit to carry or license to carry" means concealment permit for self-defense, yours seems to be what people in shitty parts of the US would call a "transportation permit or license"

Yeah, those anatomical targets are generally used for law enforcement training and many times banned outside the USA.

You can functionally replicate it in Yuroland with a 25m rapid fire Olympic pistol target (center chest , equivalent to NRA B-8) and a horizontal B7 index card (brain box).

The major difference would be that NRA B-8 is only black from 8+, the Olympic is black from 5+, so scoring standards in the videos I posted would be 8+ for in the black.

>>33448013
>yours seems to be what people in shitty parts of the US would call a "transportation permit or license"
100% that
I need it even for shooting pellets from soft air guns (if above 7.5 J -- not lethal, but dangerous still).
>>33448013
>You can functionally replicate it in Yuroland with a 25m rapid fire Olympic pistol target (center chest , equivalent to NRA B-8) and a horizontal B7 index card (brain box).
Yeah, it's the same size.
>>33448013
>The major difference would be that NRA B-8 is only black from 8+, the Olympic is black from 5+, so scoring standards in the videos I posted would be 8+ for in the black.
I've always aimed at 8+, 5 is on the edge of the black and it is frustrating as fuck.

>>33448092
You could try a 10m Rapid Fire Air Pistol.

The blackened 5 ring on that is pretty similar to the 8 ring on a 25m Rapid Fire Pistol.

>>33448092
http://targets.krueger-shops.eu/sch_en_articles.php?nPos=5&saSearch[category]=Olympic+rapid+fire+pistol+25+m&saSearch[word]=&saSearch[special]=&VID=Bf4XmQljhUb6wiwb

They sell just the 8+ center portion that you can staple or glue onto a cardboard backing. I do the same thing for mine.

>>33447093

go to the nearest range

take a class or several

/thread