why didnt the p7, or guns like the p7, take off and become the

>>33436341
>LEOs

Price. Round count. Heel Release Magazine.

During a time when Revolvers were considered "Quite adequate" for Policing.

Because it's super ugly

File: sk6Oojc.jpg (503KB, 1225x1225px) Image search: [Google]

503KB, 1225x1225px

A variety of reasons, but here are the primary ones (at least with the P7)

>Expensive as hell compared to alternatives (it's even in the advertisement!)
>hot potato syndrome
>Squeeze cocking gave some departments cold feet since there was no other manual safety (this was before DA strikers were common)
>Large amount of small parts for a semi-auto

File: CZ-P07-Duty.jpg (36KB, 495x357px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 495x357px

its mostly about price

it was also during the time when revolvers were being phased out so everyone was experimenting with autos. It almost always comes down to price/price of parts, simplicity, and ability to customize the trigger

Ive shot a few p7's, complete dream to shoot and probably one of the great ccw's but for a sidearm you want something a bit heafty
a gun ought to have some weight to it

>>33436341
>tfw didn't pick up a p7 when the german police trade ins hit the shores and were going for $700
>some shitheads stockpiled them to jack up the price
regret it almost as bad as not picking up a semi-auto 1919a4 when they were $1k each.

>>33436775
If the only thing stopping you from buying a 9mm is weight I should sell lead glock weight for retarded faggots like you. is a hipoint preferable?

>>33436341
Weight.

In the 1980s, when all metal pistols were the norm, gun manufacturers were just getting the hang of doing aluminum alloy frames right without the anodizing wearing off or the frames cracking. The principle of guns like the P7 - and before that, J-frame revolvers and guns like the Makarov in the Combloc countries - being so small, was to reduce weight. It was understood that smaller guns would be lower in ammo capacity, so when Glock came along and offered a gun weighing about the same as these subcompact all metal guns, but offering twice the ammo capacity - that is, twice the firepower - what police department WOULDN'T jump on the bandwagon?

How did it compare in clip size?

>>33436947
Are you retarded? You're talking about the same departments that had been issuing steel revolvers upwards of 38oz, 1911s, various S&W DA/SAs, Berettas and Sigs well into the 2000s.

I like wild speculation as much as the next guy but goddamn son

>>33437056
Is there any literature regarding how many police went over and how fast? it might have been a sweet spot of the old guard retiring, the new guys wanting the new hotness and Glock aggressively selling them to anyone who would listen.

>>33437006
Depends on the model. 8-13+1

>>33436341
>literally advertising your handgun as the most expensive in the world
goddammit H&K you're retarded

>>33437138
It works for the SCAR, I don't see why it wouldn't work for this.

>>33437083
It's mostly gonna be sales records to large departments and the like. There's information but it's more digging than I'm willing to do. There have been books written about this type of thing so it's not impossible to ballpark.

>>33437138
Thats actually a fairly solid marketing strategy but as far as I know it mostly applies to food. People get the idea that because it costs more it's automatically better

>>33437208
Still though, you sell the gun and convince the guy that this is something he needs no matter what the cost and it would be well worth it, skipping stright to 'This is expensive as fuck' is self defeating

>>33437248
Conspicuous consumption is a thing and bill ruger said the same about the mini. Plus in europe, guns tend to be luxury items.

I know what you mean, but at least they weren't lying. P7s were a loss item and they weren't making profit on them

File: vp9sk.jpg (211KB, 750x580px) Image search: [Google]

211KB, 750x580px

>>33436473
The P7M8, M13, and M10 all have an ambi thumb lever in the same place as the normal Luger/1911 push-button. Your statement about revolvers is also false, as lots of cops were switching from .357s to 8-shot 9x19s or 15-round Wonder 9s (S&W 59s, Beretta 92s, CZ75s, P226s, Gen1 G17s, etc) at the same time the P7M13 came out. The P7 and P7M8 were perfectly adequate and on-par with other popular military and police service pistols like the 9mm P220 (also a heel-release until the 1980s) and S&W 39. The P7 also had a problem with getting really hot after shooting just a few times, and price and the squeeze-cocking were definitely a factor. They fixed the heat problem by adding a heat shield in the M8. I think HK finally got it right with the USP, but then everybody wanted Glocks because of marketing and backroom dick-sucking, and now they've finally got something mass-marketable with the VP9 and VP40, and the P30 and HK45 for those who are still into DA/SA. The mag capacity is still mediocre on the P30 and VP9 though, which is a feeding design problem that cannot be fixed the way Mecgar has increased capacity on just about every other doublestack gun (like 18-round Beretta 92s and P226s, 17-round CZ75s, and 15-round Hi-Powers).

>>33436473
>During a time when Revolvers were considered "Quite adequate" for Policing.
They still are.

File: IMG_1623 2.jpg (225KB, 1600x1200px) Image search: [Google]

225KB, 1600x1200px

>>33437302
P7s don't heat up as quickly as folks led me to believe. I did some testing with mine some years ago:

"I took temperature readings from the frame just ahead of the trigger. After each five rounds I recorded the temperature, loaded five rounds into the magazine and fired again - roughly a 15-20 second delay between strings. Each string was in quick succession, about 3-6 seconds for each five rounds. The baseline was a bit warmer than the surrounding air because I had the pistol in an IWB holster. Here's what I got:

Baseline- 82°F
5 rounds - 89.5°F
10 rounds - 93°F
15 rounds - 100°F
20 rounds - 105°F
25 rounds - 106°F
30 rounds - 110°F

After cooling 60 seconds - 94°F

At this point I was running low on ammunition since I had been feeding the Glock 19 and Hi Power as well and had run through the better part of a 100 round box of Winchester. The slide and frame felt warm, but not uncomfortably hot. As an aside, I took a reading from my AR15's barrel after firing 40 rounds. I tested the barrel between the rings of the front sight base and it read 111°F."

File: Nice.jpg (55KB, 335x430px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 335x430px

>>33437596

I love it when people disprove old fuddlore. Like when the Box 'o Truth destroyed the old myth about the M1 Carbine not penetrating frozen chicom jackets.

Keep up the good work, man.

>>33437641
My favorite part about that dumbass myth was how the 7.62x25 will penetrate the core of the earth yet .30 carbine couldn't punch a bit of ice

>>33437641
>I love it when people disprove old fuddlore.
look at the round count hes describing testing based on 30 rounds
whens the last time anyone went to the range and only shot 30 rounds? yeah this is fine for carry because nobodys going to be carrying around 50 rounds of ammo in spare magazines for a singlestack gun but you compare that to a glock where you can magdump like 300 before heat gets noticeable.

>>33437906
>shot little carried a lot
So perfect for police use.

>>33437906
He measured a temp increase for 2-3 mags of ammunition for a handgun, at the point where it would hottest. Outside of intensive training sessions, pocket carry or ditching your countries service rifle for a handgun that means fuck all.

The point is people talk like after two mags the gun will burn through your hands

>>33436809
I dont know where you got any of that from what I said, but do you want to take nap before coming back to this thread? You seem cranky

>Hey guys, remember that grip safety thing that's redundant and pointless on the 1911?
>let's do that, but backwards and make it twice as retarded!!

>>33437987
Saying a gun needs heft is like saying a woman needs heft, only used by old codgers and niggers

>>33438003
>>33436809

wait,are you saying you prefer a little weight or not?
because youre posts are a fucking mess

p7 is just plain stupid

having a grip safety in the front of the grip where you have to consciously squeeze is stupid and unsafe.

using gas for a blowback system is an idiotic use of a gas cocking system

this kind of gun in police service would get police killed

>>33438040
I'm saying why bother with a heavy gun with shit capacity for anything but a target gun
Nice spaceing

Cash money. The same reason for every other commercial trend.

>>33438047
>using gas for a blowback system is an idiotic use of a gas cocking system
I should clarify: using case to delay the blowback system is an idiotic use of gas in a cocking system

>>33438094
You should also correct your retarded statement about the 'safety'

>>33438101
really?? how is it retarded?

>>33438094
>using case to delay the blowback system
another correction
using *gas to delay

>>33438063
why bother getting all riled up over what somebody else prefers?
and I meant that, as a duty gun, the p7 isnt that greatest. That would be like somebody carrying the glock 43 as their sidearm. A ccw or back up gun fine, but as a duty gun you could do better. That, coupled wit its price and special snowflake status is why it was phased out and why we see glocks and glock copies everywhere and not p7s

>>33437596
>>33437641
>"I allowed the gun to cool for 15-20 seconds between five-round strings of fire and after 30 rounds fired in this manner the gun was still nearly as hot as an AR gas block journal that just had a 40-round string through it"
>disproving fuddlore
wew

File: 1490052913569.jpg (19KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 480x360px

>>33436341
is that a real ad? lol

>>33437302
>I think HK finally got it right with the USP, but then everybody wanted Glocks because of marketing and backroom dick-sucking,

Price was a factor too. Cops get glocks for around "Cost" which at the time was like 200 dollars per unit.

Gaston knew what he was doing.

>>33438774
And we get them for about that after they've rode in holsters for a few years.

File: IMG_1739.jpg (130KB, 1600x1200px) Image search: [Google]

130KB, 1600x1200px

>>33438676
After 50 rounds it becomes appreciably warm. After 100 it gets quite uncomfortable to hold. I haven't dumped more than that through mine in one go. I took those measurements about seven years ago and it satisfied my curiosity.

It gets hotter than any of my other semiauto handguns, but that's a rather low bar given the nature of the gas-delay blowback system. It certainly won't burn your hand after a half-dozen magazines, though.

Here is a shot of the P7's fluted chamber. You can spot the gas port in the barrel at the 6 o'clock position just ahead of the chamber.

>>33438094
I've always been led to believe that the gas system increases bullet velocity by acting as a longer barrel. So instead of 4.1 inchs it might ballistically be 5 inches or something.

Try shooting one, the sights seem closer and the things are incredibly accurate seemingly by instinct. Fine CCW, certainly the safest.

>>33438971
I completely forgot that they had fluted chambers.

Was that on all variations of the P7?

I'd love for the gas retarded blowback system to make a comeback. The Walther CCP had it but it was a steaming pile of shit.

>>33439347
Okay, is there any reason other than novelty for you to want this? I really don't understand it other than low bore axis but then magazine forward designs ware a better candidate for that kind of autism..

>>33439423
Low bore axis, impossible to limpwrist, probably less sensitive to powder charge than recoil-operated designs, better potential for mechanical accuracy due to fixed barrel, etc.

>>33439423
Want what? A P7 or the system it used?

>>33439347
To my knowledge, all the P7's including the M10 have fluted chambers.

As I recall, part of their marketing was to remove the extractor and demonstrate the pistol would still extract and eject reliably. They attributed this feat to the fluted chamber.

>>33439482
The system, it just seems to be solving a problem that doesn't really exist in terms of accuracy of a moving barrel in a standard caliber handgun, is unduly complicated and even then has another compromise of a fluted barrel. It's neat but I feel I'm missing something in terms of what it brings to the table other than German engineering.

>>33439485
Well, that's a pretty effective way of marketing a gun.

God, prices of them have skyrocketed. Even the magazines are unobtainable. Walther stopped production of the CCP as well. I hope some company realizes the potential for this system and finds a way to utilize it and make it run cool.

>>33439533
The system implemented the advantages of a fixed barrel blowback system to a platform that can handle something stronger than 9x18.

Fixed barrel. Simpler, fewer parts and more accurate.

File: 1489639128418.gif (2MB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 320x240px

>"Why the P7 is the most expensive handgun in the world."
>unironically using white 3 dot sights as a listed feature

I'll let this slide, HK as of the past couple of years has proven that they know what they're doing when engineering a handgun unlike most companies

>>33439534
At least the guy that was hoarding them went to jail if I recall correctly

>>33439570
Huh, was fooled by the weird striker cocker parts, that system itself is actually dead simple.

Shame the centerfire pistol shooting community all seem to just use blowback, I actually want to see this now on something.

Heck, you don't even need all steel, just make it polymer and you'd have solved the overheating issue for the most part.

>>33439740
>implying three-dot sights weren't a legitimate feature back then
This was the late 70s. The competition was 1. 1911s with crappy GI sights or unfit-for-duty-use competition sights, 2. Hi-Powers with similar, 3. revolvers ranging from crappy trench-and-post to sort-of-OK red ramp/white outline sights, 4. unobtanium Czech wonder-9s from beyond the Iron Curtain with three-dot sights.

Every cop I saw in Munich had one.

File: 20 rounds into range trip and chill and your gun gives you this look.jpg (56KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 800x600px

>>33439762
>just make it polymer

>>33439932
Make the tube thicker and it doesn't get particularly hot anyway, rifles have far more heat coming off them and they handle polymer fine.