What the fuck was its problem?

>>33417784
Couldn't actually fight stars.

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>>33417784

It didn't have any you FAGGOT.

My planefu is flawless

>>33417784
Tiny ass wings and the Germans tried to use it as a fighter bomber for some odd reason.

>>33417784
All the Germans who could fly were dead in western russia or alive but in eastern russia; got strong-armed into buying the most high-performance jet of its time anyway.

>>33417835
Germans have odd ideas about jets

>>33417784
wings too small

>>33417784
The problem was that German pilots couldn't handle a proper jet aircraft and crashed the things like mad. No other nation had a ton of issues with them, just West Germany.

>>33417784
The Starfighter was an interceptor not a dogfighter and once soviet nuclear bombers became unimportant relative to ICBMs they were retired to get more superiority fighters.

>>33417784

germans were bribed into buying it with hookers and blow

they then used it for a role it wasnt intended for while having shit training for the pilots

>>33418025
The Germans had them to shoot down Russian supersonic nuclear bombers.

Then they switched to the F-15/16 and euroshit like everyone else.

>>33417784
Ridiculously large turning circle, ejector seats couldn't clear tailplane until upgraded.

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>>33417784
No problems. It was perfect, the pilots just weren't. It is without doubt the perfect plane

>>33417835
>>33417952
What do you expect when you take away a country's entire fucking air force for nearly 20 years and then take them straight from the piston age right to the hottest little lawndart on the planet?

>>33417835
>Germans tried to use it as a fighter bomber
The G was the most common variant built, even in the USAF most were fighter-bombers.

>>33417952
>No other nation had a ton of issues with them, just West Germany.
Belgium, Canada and Italy had a similar or higher loss rate.

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>>33419906
>Belgium

I have been summoned. Let me tell you about a starfighter pilot I knew...

Captain Guy Ghys was a skilled pilot in the Belgian airforce. He had flown a variety of prop (SV4B Trainer & AT6 Harvard) & jet planes (T-33A Trainer, F-89F Thunderstreak & F-104 Starfighter) and had an ungodly amount of flight hours, in and out of combat.

On the 24th of Sept 1969, he taxi'ed his F-104 (tail number FX-71) on the runway and started his take off. Halfway the runway he noticed that the engine started to crap out, resulting in insufficient engine thrust and following procedures by the book, he abandons the take-off. Procedures or not, his luck was about to run out.

The craft's single engine spools down, and one after the other, the emergency brake systems fail. Bricks are shat when the aircraft continues straight ahead off the runway into the overrun. It rumbles on to cross a road after the overrun and tumbles and catches fire.

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>>33417952

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>>33419932
>continued

Guy, following procedures ejects in the overrun, just before the aircraft was about to cross the road. But planes in this era did not have enough trust in their ejection seats to develop enough lift to allow the parachute to fully deploy. With little forward momentum and not enough altitude, the parachute had no time to open.

As the control tower scrambles the base's fire brigade, the pilot races to the ground only slowed by a barely deployed parachute. He lands in a swampy area just next to the overrun. The impact is severe, and crushes a few bones. The weight of the ejection seat (which he could obviously not separate from in the air) presses down on him, as he rolls face down into the swamp. Slowly, mud and water seep into his mask... Unable to push away, and with the heavy weight pressing down on him, he can do nothing but gasp for air (getting mud in return). By the time the rescue teams reach him, half his lungs have been filled and destroyed by mud. They saved him, though his life hanged by a thread.

He spent the rest of his life at home. Unable to take more than a few steps before gasping for air. He had to drag a little trolley with him, with dual oxygen bottles to feed him O2.

He could say no more than a handful of words before having to breath from his oxygen mask, making it impossible to finish a sentence.

He was a great man though. He died about a decade ago. He will be missed.

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>>33417952
>No other nation had a ton of issues with them, just West Germany.

Patently fucking false. Most nations using it has ridiculous loss rates. They don't call it the "flying coffin", "widow maker" or "lawn dart" for nothing...

Some flaws can be attributed to local manufacturing fuckups, but the primary design (as sold) itself was flawed.
Hell, there's serious evidence that the reason that the F-104 was selected in Belgium was because officials were bribed to do so.

>>33417784

Germans are good are air to air combat, but really suck at landing.

>>33417784
Nothing wrong with it until the engine conked out. Then it suddenly turned into a brick.
That and shitty pilots.

>>33419944
>false
>when the facts back up that no one else had loss rates like the Germans

Who are you trying to fool?

Single engine lawn-dart that had a downward ejection system.
Great when your single engine quits within a few thousand feet of the ground that you're trying to stay within a few hundred feet of because you're ground attack role.

>>33420055
Germans suck at war.
Their Typhoons are in a pathetic state and when functional would get their asses kicked.
Extrapolate to F-104.

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>that wing

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>>33420094
>Who are you trying to fool?

orly?

Germany lost about 30% of aircraft in accidents over its operating career.
Canada lost 46% of its F-104s.

Have fun trying to refute me: http://www.i-f-s.nl/f-104-accidents/

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCORwUxlNQo#t=1m37s

>>33419938
Interesting story anon, thanks for sharing.
F

>>33417784
Built as the best interceptor, with a focus on pure speed to get there before anyone else.

Somehow used a bomber and wide support roles. It turns out a tiny fast plane built for one single purpose is not the best at other things, so it didn't do well.

Really when you build a plane you want to identify the needs and build an appropriate number of planes to meet it. One do everything plane fails, and single use planes are just as bad.

>>33418001
This is a meme. Stop.

>>33419887
>1945
>country that invented the jet fighter i still in the piston age

>>33417819
fp,bp

>>33420262
Beat me to it.

If the F-104 had never been built, we would still have a second XB-70 today, at the Smithsonian where it belongs.

I'm convinced Joe Walker was a hitman hired by Lockheed to take out the Valk because Lockheed was salty that Rockwell one-upped the A-12 with a Mach 3 bird the size of a 747.

>>33419944
Hell, even Chuck motherfucking Yaeger almost died in an F-104

http://framework.latimes.com/2012/02/28/chuck-yeager-and-the-nf-104-starfighter-crash/

European fighter pilots don't have the skills or don't get the training that Americans do, it's that simple.

It's like giving a 16 year old a Mustang GT, they're gonna floor it at some point and have the rear wheels come out from behind them, ending up in a ditch or worse. The kid will probably blame the car but it was their fault.

>>33421338
yea trying to set a flight record, that's hella different

>>33421414
How it's the pilot mistake here, kiddo?
>>33419932
>>33419938

>>33417784
-Laser focus on top speed as the only design criteria. The F-104 was in theory supposed to fix the problem that F-86 Sabre pilots experienced against the MiG-15. Instead, top speed seemed to be the only focus.

-Really a great interceptor, pressed into use for duties it wasn't suited for (dogfighting, air superiority, even ground attack!)

-Non-American customers had a large loss rate. Fun Fact: F-104 losses were mostly CFIT (controlled flight into terrain). International pilots were trained at Luke AFB in Arizona, then tasked to fly low-level strike in awful weather in Central Europe. Add in war-ravaged countries with no experience with high performance fighters and you have a recipe for disaster.

-Maybe the F-104 was just ahead of its' time? With a better radar and AIM-7 Sparrows like the Italians added, it would have been a bitching point-defense interceptor.

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>>33421414
We lost none tho.

Honestly I think that it "failed" because Interception was not a thing anymore. It would have rocked taking on bomber raids.

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>>33417835
Why is this such a familiar story?

>>33421543
Two things I forgot:

-Bribery. I'm sure everyone did it -- in some parts of the world, this is how business is supposed to happen -- but Lockheed got caught. So some air forces presumably bought a fighter not remotely suitable for them. They would have been better off with Super Sabres and Voodoos.

-I once talked with (ironically, a Lockheed Martin employee) who when he was in the Air Force, was a maintainer at a base in Germany that had Starfighters. His verdict was that the plane was fine, but demanded a lot of your attention due to its performance, so errors were usually severe. This seems to explain all the CFIT theories: inexperienced pilots attempting to navigate through Central German clouds and mountains at the same altitude, not realizing how little time you have at 400-500 knots.

>>33421414
But USAF has a worst accident rate.

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The interceptor thing is a meme. It was designed as a low weight air superiority fighter, which by 1958 was not what the Air Force wanted anymore, cause lol SAC. The first starfighters just so happened to go to ADC in 1958, followed a month later by TAC with F-104Cs. People assume that because it went to ADC first that it was designed for interception but this isn't true.

Nations that had difficulties with the aircraft typically employed it as a low level tactical nuclear bomber, a role for which it wasn't well suited cause it has meme speed. In comparison to other early high performance fighters, it's accident rate wasn't that bad.

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>>33420218
>didn't even look at the causes

This is just from the ones where someone ejected

>CF‑104 104803 Hit tree on final approach
>104728 Aircraft struck ground after takeoff, probably due to open canopy
>104767 Mid‑Air collision in formation
> 104778 Possible bird strike compressor stall on low level flight
>104856 Engine failure due to inadequate maintenance
>104659 Bird strike-engine failure
>104820 3 Wing Zweibrucken Severe compressor stall due to birdstrike
>104745 6 STR OTU Cold Lake Engine failure due to birdstrike
>104875 4 Wing Baden Aircraft pitched up due to pilot disorientation
Rastatt, Germany
>104734 1 Wing Lahr Compressor stall due to birdstrike
>104885 4 Wing Baden Control loss due to hydraulic system contamination
>104724 417 OTS Cold Lake Aircraft pitched up while avoiding another aircraft
>104741 417 OTS Cold Lake Engine failure due to birdstrike
>104782 417 OTS Cold Lake Engine failure due to foreign object damage
>104854 1 Wing Lahr Severe cockpit damage after birdstrike
>104831 4 Wing Baden In‑flight fire due to foreign object damage
>104881 4 Wing Baden Mid‑air collision on training flight
>104765 417 OTS Cold lake Engine failure due to birdstrike
>104709 1 Wing Lahr Loss of control during formation takeoff
>104781 1 Wing Lahr Aircraft struck top of hill on low level mission
>104718 4 Wing Baden Mid‑air collision in cloud on instrument approach
>104828 4 Wing Baden Mid‑air collision in cloud on instrument approach
>104834 1 Wing Lahr Multiple compressor stalls at high level due to engine foreign object damage
>104710 417 OTS Cold Lake Aircraft struck trees on practice weapon delivery
>104823 1 CAG Baden Mid‑air collision shortly after takeoff
>104668 Baden Sollingen Engine failure (FOD and fire)
>104769 417 OTS Cold lake Aircraft hit trees on practice weapons delivery
>104720 1 CAG Baden Aircraft struck trees on a practice tactical weapons delivery
>104631 Cold Lake Test flight - engine failure due to fod

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>>33421707
>104715 1 CAG Baden Massive in‑flight control restriction due to unidentified foreign object damage
>104829 421 Sqn. Baden Engine failure due to birdstrike
>104651 417 Cold Lake Bird strike-engine failure
>104807 421 Sqn. Baden Explosion/Fire in flight caused by Personal - Maintenance - Inattention and as a second factor: Management - National Defence Headquarters - Information
>104665 Baden Sollingen Bird strike-compressor stall
>104762 421 Sqn. Baden Aircraft struck trees on simulated tactical delivery
>104705 AETE Cold Lake Aircraft struck frozen lake surface on low level tactical mission
>104892 417 Sqn. Cold Lake In‑flight fire due to improper maintenance
>104827 439 Sqn. Baden Mid‑air collision while on training mission
>104821 439 Sqn. Baden Engine failure due to foreign object damage

And finally

>104830 441 Sqn. Baden Compressor stall due to ricochet during a strafe pass

So that's just loss of aircraft that pilots managed to eject from that were either beyond their control (maintainence, fucking geese, FOD, etc) or flight mistakes. Incredible to lose 40 airframes from stupid shit like hitting a bird, not closing your canopy or just shooting yourself down.

All this tells me is that the leading cause of CF-104 loses were birds. There's no doubt that 50's jet designs were not good at handling bird strikes.

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When your point defence fighter looks like this then you were sold a pup

>>33421504
the mistake was believing that the Belgians were capable of having an air force given their almost entirely empty military history

I'm glad that pilot crashed out and lived a terrible life afterwards, that's what he deserves for trying to play with the big dogs

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>>33421908
I bet you felt all smug while typing that..

>>33421908
>Belgium
>empty military history
what is Africa?

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>the mistake was believing that the Belgians were capable of having an air force given their almost entirely empty military history
>I'm glad that pilot crashed out and lived a terrible life afterwards, that's what he deserves for trying to play with the big dogs

>>33422047
>African conquest
>military achievement

Pick one.

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>>33422167
Britain and France disagree

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>>33422143

>That pic

Fucker should be shot.

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>>33420150
>4 inches thick

THHHIIINNNNN

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>>33422203
More pink is better. ;)

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>>33422250

I agree, that guy is a faggot.

>>33421707
>probably due to open canopy
Huh?

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>>33421740
Birds still knock down more airplanes than any other factor. Plus billions a year in repairable damages.

>>33422645
>Canopy probably not latched
>blows off as the plane picks up speed
>startles the shit out of the pilot

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The german starfighters suffered from multiple problems:
1. Adoption of a good weather interceptor as a fighter-bomber used in middle european weather, cause some massive bribery on behalf of Lockheed.
2. In the first few years the planes stood outside all year simply because the hangars (and air bases in general) were still in construction.
3. European manufactors producing parts differently than Lockheed intended them to be built.
4. Massive lack of trained mechanics because the german military simply wasn't a really attraktive employer.
But all of these problems got better over the next few years.

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Funny thing is, it seems like if the F-104 and MiG-21 switched places in the Cold War, the F-104 would be lauded as an amazing fighter and the MiG-21 universally reviled.

They had very similar performance:
>Mach 2 top speed
>Hilariously short range
>Roughly similar payload

Hell, given the reputation for horrifcally bad ergonomics that slavshit of the time tended to have, the MiG-21 would probably perform even worse in Western service.

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>>33423048
Its performance is probably very well documented.

>>33423048

but the f-104 could fly with near empty tanks ;^)

>>33421290
>1944/5
>thinking the ME 262 actually impacted anything

compare it to the D.520, but faster

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>>33423136
Most things will fly with near empty tanks.
The point is to actually get things done before becoming a lawn dart.
Pic probably has range enough to get to the crash.