What's /k/'s opinion of the G2 Civic Duty?

>>33412344
none.

>>33412344
Kind of dumb, at least with a .380acp. Personally, I'd want an FMJ for maximum penetration over extra expansion.

>>33412344
Dumb overpriced gimmick designed to sell to total suckers.

>>33412344
Literally "WHO?"-tier.

>>33412344
https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40

Some better choices

>>33412344
my spare mag is loaded with these for the keks
2.5 initial size expansion, consistent performance through denim/bare gel and a solid 10" pen, shy of the feds standards but definitely reach out and touch the CNS distance

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>>33412344
>still uses expanding ammo after it's been shown to be nonsensical and of limited use.

slices watermelon up nicely

>>33412716
>still posting as Zed after it's been shown to have aids-tier opinions on everything

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>>33412741
It's not opinion. It's fact.
Expanding ammo has no measurable statistical effect on incapacitation in a shooting, and ER surgeons are unable to tell the difference between a gunshot wound from an expanding handgun cartridge and hardball.

Stop believing bullshit advertisements. Stop mimicking what LEOs do, for the wrong reasons. Stop wasting time and money. Stop looking for ammo that "your weapon can feed".

The truth is out: FMJ is exactly as effective and as better feed reliability.

Welcome to the world of the real.

I have Tac XPD in mine. I've heard its legit. I also have hornady critical defense but I've heard they don't actually expand so.

>>33412827
FMJ is not as effective as Hollow point, if you believe it is, you're an idiot civilian.

>>33412490
>and a solid 10" pen

Over 80% of the minimum acceptable performance!

>>33412827
>and ER surgeons are unable to tell the difference

Not that it really matters to them. They have a hole to plug, they need to make up for blood loss, they need to clean shit up to prevent infection, and if the patient has gone into shock that has to be dealt with. How wide exactly the hole is or how fats blood loss induced shock matters little to them. It matters a whole fucking lot to you when someone's trying to kill you however.

>>33412827
What is the reason that the military is moving to adopt hollow-point ammunition in their handguns then? They don't need to worry about hitting bystanders, so that can't be the reason.

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>>33412938
Re-read what I wrote:
>Expanding ammo has no measurable statistical effect on incapacitation in a shooting, and ER surgeons are unable to tell the difference between a gunshot wound from an expanding handgun cartridge and hardball.

Your post basically just reiterates what we've all heard all our lives, unable to understand that the information I've presented directly and utterly refutes it.

JHP is your Brawndo.

>>33412872
Actually, the truth is that FMJ is more effective than JHP.

The reason for that is that there is no measurable difference in their terminal ballistic effects (put simply, the fantasy that the slightly larger permanent cavity produced as a measure of total cavity volume increases the speed or probability of stopping the person shot is, just fantasy), and since FMJ has better feed reliability, it is therefore statistically less likely to result in a jammed and useless firearm. Ergo, it's more effective.

Simple logic, really. Why is this so hard for people?

>>33412382
Penetration wastes your punching power

Holy shit, it's bizzaro /k/. A tripfag is making a logical point based on empirical evidence and anons are coming out of the wood works to spew fudd lore about muh stopping power and hollow points causing massive damage over fmj.

Next I'll bet someone will say the reason they're banned by the Hague is because they're too effective at killing and they're considered "cruel and unusual"

>>33414267
How is that bizzaro /k/? It's been like that for over a decade.

>>33413304
>muh stopping power
A bullet stops a person by perforating a vital organ. Additionally, your average handgun cartridge simply lacks the "power" to knock a human of their feet. If it could, it would also break the wrists of the person firing the weapon. It's a fundamental principal of physics.

>>33413222
What if over pen is a concern?

>>33414950
Where are all the examples of overpenetration in a self-defense shooting causing injury to an innocent?

Yeah, they're statistically insignificant. Once again, the gun industry overblew a danger to sell fancy overpriced lead flowers.

Just stop this already.

>>33412716
> still trolling with the same retard Bullshit
Do you start these threads without your trip just to have something to do?

>>33413222
If your gun can't feed jhp it's garbage.

>>33412344
Looks like RIP rounds with a slightly less retarded name.

>>33415007
Some guns feed all JHP, some guns feed most JHP, some guns feed some JHP, and some guns don't feed any JHP.

All guns that feed will feed hardball.

Advantage: FMJ.

>>33414950
Over-penetration is fudd handwringing.

Any cartridge worth shooting someone with is going to go through drywall. Blame cheap housing.

>>33412344
>G2 Research
>Giving fuckfaces like them money.
You deserve nothing but stoppages for the rest of your life.

>>33412827

"Expanding ammo has no measurable statistical effect on incapacitation in a shooting, and ER surgeons are unable to tell the difference between a gunshot wound from an expanding handgun cartridge and hardball."

gonna need a source.

plus FMJ has this strange proclivity for coming out the other side of a target with enough force to still hurt someone.

>>33412827
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf

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>>33412344
They aren't HSTs, Gold Dots, or Hornady.

Just another overpriced gimmick round

>>33415117
>https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf
This conversation has nothing to do with hydrostatic shock, but thanks anyway.

>>33415171
And here i thought we were speaking as to the relative merits of SD ammunition types. or do you think that an over penetrating FMJ round deposits as much energy as a retained expanding round?

All this "evidence" and """deductive logic""" yet Zed has not posted a source for ANYTHING and only one person has even asked for a citation...

>>33413222
Would it not also be logical to assume that because a larger cavitation caused by an expanding round would have also have a greater volume, that more blood would be lost from that larger wound? Compare how much blood you'll be lost from a 22LR entering the abdomen compared to a .45ACP. Cavitation volume is integral to what studies have called AIT (avg incapacitation time)

>>33415196
>energy deposit
HAHAHAHA, oh hell, I haven't heard that in YEARS!

I nostalgia'd. Ahh, the trolls of yester/k/. Well played Anon.

>>33412344
SO someone actually made a RIP knockoff?

>>33415354
>RIP knockoff

Doesn't RIP break into fragments?

>>33415316
Hey yo zed, quick physiology question for you! what do you know of hypovolemia, a baroreceptor reflex, or TBI? not shit, right?

>>33412716
Oh Zed :D

>>33415371
You think those won't?

>>33415312
I feel like an important question relative to this line of thought that has yet to be answered is where the actual bottle neck occurs. seems like you could figure it out pretty easy with a semi complex experiment or just good theoretical grounding but those are more or less beyond me.

to clarify, if a large blood vessel is bisected by a hole, is the limiting factor to bleed out time in fact the size of the hole poked in it? at some point one would expect to reach a size of wound where the limiting factor to bleed speed would instead be the volume/pressure of liquid contained in the vessel as opposed to the size of the outlet. whil a bigger hole would produce more peripheral damage and bleeding the amount of bleeding from arteries(which causes most of the blood loss) may in fact be limited.

>>33412344
Is it 2014 again?

>>33415027
Made by the same people.

>>33414939
A bullet stops a person by delivering a kinetic load. Someone doesn't "stop" because "oops my liver kinda hurts now" they stop because you just punched them across the room with your hollow poin

>>33416089
You're thinking in terms of specific anatomy being damaged by a bullet. If you were to take out all circumstances that included major anatomy being damaged (circulatory system, heart, lungs, brain) the more tissue torn through by a projectile, the more chances capillaries and smaller blood vessels will be damaged, resulting in higher loss of blood and a quicker death. Think about a hypothetical mass made of adipose tissue, musculature, a circulatory system and flesh. You make a hole in this mass and it bleeds proportionally to the size of the hole created.

The argument
>that the slightly larger permanent cavity produced as a measure of total cavity volume increases the speed or probability of stopping the person

is true because if you were hit anywhere but very specific places (shot placement!), you'll basically be hitting the aforementioned hypothetical mass. Again, if I were to get hit in the abdomen by either a 22 or a 45 and only care whether I live or die, I'd take the 22.

Big hole, more blood; small hole, less blood.

>>33417449
mmmmmmm. im afraid i have to disagree, this is a common issue that seems to pop up(imo) when dealing with situations in which the details are all too important. the business of making an average of these situations provides figures that are rarely indicative of the outcomes of any individual encounter. I like to refer to this as the inverse application of regression to the mean. that is to say that just as when a sample size increases your answers will tend to head towards the mean(avg answr of data) moving into the opposite direction, or a sample size of one(the situation youre facing at any given point/time) will oftentimes or even more likely head in a different and more random direction.

as it refers to this discussion in particular, there is a reason individuals are supposed to aim for the center of the thoracic triangle. im not questioning if a 9mm or .45acp round that hits nothing vital is more lethal, but rather the exact opposite. after all even with a perfectly aimed shot to the ascending aorta an individual technically will be able to remain conscious for up to ~4s. the thoracic triangle represents the highest concentration of critical specific anatomy to use your term(rather apt one i must say). mostly the large thoracic blood vessels and the heart, with a nice side of aorta and upper thoracic CNS. almost everybody is in agreement that shot placement is everything, so i think that arguments regarding the diminishing(or non diminishing as it may be, i dont pretend to have actual answers here) returns of wound cavity diameter are highly pertinent to the argument of X handgun caliber or Y handgun caliber. after all, we arent talking about something as complex and broad in area of effect as a fragmenting rifle round. but rather weather an aorta, pulmonary vessel, or heart will bleed out quicker when perforated with a .70" hole or a .90" hole.

>>33417305
fudd please go.

>>33416077
https://youtu.be/UDAoSMmWOmw

They dont there is a comparison between the two here

>>33418515
kinda neat, i feel like there might be an argument to be made for designs that focus on a bare minimum of base diameter/mass compared to petal length. But i dont think that the RIP civic duty is there. if they toned down the expansion to 220% or 230% and squeezed another 2-3" of pen out of the round then they might have a real contender for the creme of the crop SD round for use around non hard barriers/vehicles.

going by zed logic everyone everywhere should be carrying hi capacity .22 mag fmj loads because they meet the FBI penetration standards, have the lowest recoil and best capacity, because tissue trauma is nothing, right? zed is a fucktarded moron attention whore troll who has been BTFO out of here so many times over the last 7 years it would make your head spin. if you buy in to his snake oil sales pitch you can go be dead with him.

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Meme bullets that hardly penetrate a jacket, let alone a vest.

>>33418652
not the same round, just the same company.

>>33418404
NOT AN ARGUMENT

>>33412344
Bad idea, especially in 380, there might be some Federal HST JHP that has enough penetration but I'd probably go with FMJ based on 9mm short's reputation for failing to feed properly, especially in vintage pistols with JHP. Zed is at least partially correct in much of what he says. In 9mm Luger or larger you should always go with a known brand that's been around: Federal, CCI Speer Gold Dot, maybe Hornady stuff, possibly Remington if that's all you had. Winchester Ranger Talon is trusted and liked by some. Stay away from meme stuff.

>>33417449
Your entire argument is predicated on blood loss. This is an error. Here's why:

It's entirely dependent on where you get hit. You could get hit in the femoral with .22LR and be dead within minutes, or be hit in the belly with .45 JHP, have no major arteries hit, and not die from blood loss at all.

>>33418635
.22 mag has poor feed reliability compared to duty caliber handgun rounds.
I think I may have B you TFO before, hence your anger. Sorry to have done it again.

>Carry Ammo/HP thread
>Zed is shitting it up

WOAH THERE NEWFRIENDS, ABANDON THREAD, ZED'sS A FAG

>>33420843
This is a good post. I personally don't use the JHP in any caliber anymore, but if it feeds well in your handgun, and it makes you feel better, then by all means go ahead.

I'm just pointing out that there's not that much difference, in terms of effective terminal ballistics, between JHP and FMJ

>b-b-buh muh bigar hoel!!!!

Yeah, we've been through that already. Read the thread.

(not you Anon, your post was good. I was speaking to the others)

>>33416047
He's googling. give him a second.

>>33421371
>posted 16 hours ago
>not responded to
Or maybe I was ignoring it because the first two things are related to rate of blood loss, which is of course completely dependent on where you are hit, making JHP (once again) irrelevant (see >>33421062 ) and the third term relates to a hit to the CNS, which, again, if that happens you'll die from FMJ as fast as you will from FMJ

I know this is hard for you guys to get your minds around. You keep falling back on "b-b-buh de hoel is bigar... mug biggar hoel!!"

I am patiently explaining to you all, over and over, that it really doesn't make that much difference.

I'll keep trying though. It might sink in for a few folks, eventually.

>>33421487
oops:
>you'll die from FMJ as fast as you will from JHP
was obviously what I meant.

>>33421487
New poster,
Then carry a .22, i don't care if your butthole gets culturally enriched

But if the hole's bigger, then you have a better chance at nicking something important

Plus the whole "hit the shit behind them" thing with fmj. Legally, that's kind of a huge deal

>>33421535
Try reading threads before you post. See
>>33421062
>.22 mag has poor feed reliability compared to duty caliber handgun rounds.

christ what a cringy name.

>>33421560
I missed that bit

Carry .25acp then

Or a sharp stick

>>33421560
Or carry a revolver in .22

>>33421682
.25 ACP doesn't even meet the bare-minimum 12" penetration with FMJ

Sharp sticks are not very effective at 7 yards.

Keep trying though! If we go through enough of this, you'll start to see that what I'm saying is actually correct, and you'll stop being ignorant in this area. I'm willing to help if you're willing to put in the work of continuing to post!

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>>33421704
Forgot the pic.

A revolver in .22 would be better than a .25 auto. But revolvers are not as easy to conceal, are more difficult to reload, and have somewhat limited capacity.

Keep trying though! You're doing well!

>>33421728
I actually believe it's your turn

>But if the hole's bigger, then you have a better chance at nicking something important

>Plus the whole "hit the shit behind them" thing with fmj. Legally, that's kind of a huge deal

I dont recall you addressing these

>>33412344
They look good in beach homes.

>>33412827
Let me tell you this inferential evidence I've read online. Stop doing this, Stop doing that.

How about you stop being a stupid ass faggot and let people believe what they want to believe, stop trying to be right on this bullshit internet board and go outside

>>33421756
If the hole is deeper, you have a better chance of penetrating to something important. Considering that people being shot at like to get behind solid things, that's actually more useful, and far more likely to be effective, than hoping that a few extra hundreths of diameter are going to mean the difference between success and failure of a near-miss. The odds on that have to just be... astronomical.

The "hit behind them" thing was actually addressed already. Read the thread, thank you.

>>33421772
Belief =/= Useful self defense information.
Handguns are not Jebus, Anon. Grow up.

meme rounds

>>33421772
I absolutely fucking hate this line of thinking. Letting people believe what they want to believe belongs to subjective arguments, not objective. If you aren't able to handle being wrong, you need to grow up and get some thicker skin. Hell, you don't even have to agree. But at least entertain the idea that you may not have all the information and retain the ability to reevaluate your position

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>>33421913
Holy shit! An Anon with reason and logic who doesn't get upset when his narrative is challenged???

Holy shit call the internet scientists! A rare internet species thought extinct has surfaced!!

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>>33421885
>Where are all the examples of overpenetration in a self-defense shooting causing injury to an innocent?

>Yeah, they're statistically insignificant. Once again, the gun industry overblew a danger to sell fancy overpriced lead flowers.

Are you referring to this?

You ever thought that maybe overpen isn't an issue BECAUSE the overwhelming majority uses hollowpoints?

And it's more than hitting people, it's property too. Windows, cars, etc

You don't want to put a hole through some window or windshield and have to pay for it. That's WAY more expensive than buying hollowpoints

I mean sure, you can use FMJ and deal with it. The military does. But it's not the safer option


Also pic related, hollowpoints expand quite a bit, much more than "a few hundredths"

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>>33422060
>You ever thought that maybe overpen isn't an issue BECAUSE the overwhelming majority uses hollowpoints?
Specious reasoning.

>much more than "a few hundredths"
Ok, a few tenths then. The point is the same.

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>>33422457
Kill yourself. But use fmj so you become a vegetable instead of finishing the job.

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>>33422457
>hollowpoints dont overpenetrate
>people use hollowpoints
>therefore their bullets don't overpenetrate
>therefore there aren't a large number of overpenetration issues
Your response: nuh uh!

Cmon, you're gonna have to do better than that.

>a few tenths then
That's an order of magnitude difference. Also see pic related. A "few tenths" is a big difference, especially when we're dealing with area

>>33422743
I said your reasoning was specious. Which it is.

As to the tenths of an inch thing: You're basically still arguing that the reason JHP is useful is in case you miss the heart, CNS, or aortic arch by that much... which is still an astronomically low order of probability of usefulness.

It's just silly nonsense for people who are easily duped, as you apparently are.

Sorry about that.

>>33412344
>In .380

Just fuck my penetration up.

>>33423643
>doubling the area
>low usefulness
Let's do a test. shoot yourself in the head with an FMJ, and then shoot yourself in the head with a JHP. see which one hurts worst

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>>33423998
Gents, this is the moment when the Anon runs out of actual arguments, and just falls back on shitposting. What follows is understanding and acceptance of the truth, but we have to go through the shitposting phase first.

>>33424052
I'm not even the guy you have been responding to.
I've been around long enough to know there's no rhyme or reason to argue with you, because downs syndrome has already won the ultimate argument with you

>>33424171
(this is still the shitposting phase)

>>33412827
>>33415104
>>33415223
>Still no source
As always, Zed is a faggot.

>>33420843
Looked into some .380 tests, cartridges loaded with hydra shoks, or xtp bullets tend to penetrate well.

>>33423643
>specious reasoning
You have to demonstrate HOW it's specious, else you're just blowing smoke

And the other anon is right, double the area is a big deal.

Because it's not JUST the heart you're aiming to hit. It's every major artery, the heart, both lungs, the CNS, the brain, etc. There's a lot to hit.

There are many places in the body that you can run a needle through and not hit anything vital. But there are far fewer places you can run a quarter sized rod through and not hit anything vital. Meaning there is more target area with a larger caliber, in essence

Also consider the brain. When shot, it doesn't cease to function completely. Only massive trauma will do that, and hollowpoints make a much larger hole for the job

>>33425691
This is what nonsense looks like.

>>33425711
Gents, this is the moment when the Anon runs out of actual arguments, and just falls back on shitposting. What follows is understanding and acceptance of the
truth, but we have to go through the shitposting phase first.


Glad to see we both wasted our time here. Play a real champion next time edgelord

Like tahm kench

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>>33418652

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>>33425789
>You have to demonstrate HOW it's specious, else you're just blowing smoke
I did exactly that. I even used a simple-to-understand example. Apparently, you didn't understand it.
>And the other anon is right, double the area is a big deal.
>Because it's not JUST the heart you're aiming to hit. It's every major artery, the heart, both lungs, the CNS, the brain, etc. There's a lot to hit.
Again, you're failing to comprehend that the concept is that you're likely, at all, to miss by the difference between the expanded and unexpanded bullet. You probably didn't understand that last sentence... but I'll keep trying *sigh*
>There are many places in the body that you can run a needle through and not hit anything vital. But there are far fewer places you can run a quarter sized rod through and not hit anything vital. Meaning there is more target area with a larger caliber, in essence
This is a restatement of the previous argument that you have failed to comprehend. I truly pity you.
>Also consider the brain. When shot, it doesn't cease to function completely. Only massive trauma will do that, and hollowpoints make a much larger hole for the job
Shoot yourself in the brain with a 9mm FMJ and tell me long you are still capable of violent action.

Oh wait... scratch that last. You don't have much brain to begin with, and are likely to miss entirely. OF COURSE you think you need a larger bullet to hit one! It all makes sense now!

Out of curiosity, is there a way to hide the stubs of filtered shitposters yet?

>>33425958
>Anon
gay

>>33425904
> I did exactly that. I even used a simple-to-understand example. Apparently, you didn't understand it.

Im gonna ignore the rest of what you said, mostly because i don't feel like finding an annotating a diagram of the human body, just so you can spaghetti all over it anyway

Nowhere (and i double checked) did you describe HOW my reasoning was specious. The following is all of the related text:


>You ever thought that maybe overpen isn't an issue BECAUSE the overwhelming majority uses hollowpoints?

>>Specious reasoning.

>Your response: nuh uh!

>> I said your reasoning was specious. Which it is.

> You have to demonstrate HOW it's specious, else you're just blowing smoke

>> I did exactly that. I even used a simple-to-understand example. Apparently, you didn't understand it.


So ONE of us is completely retarded, and im betting on you

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>>33412827
>>33412716
>>33413178

>>33426305
>im betting on you
It's fucking Zed. That's not even a bet, it's a constant. Is the poster Zed? If yes, then the poster is also a retarded faggot. (And not to be "specious", it's still gay if the cock your sucking is your own.)

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>>33426320
Sides are in orbit

>>33426417
aaaaaand we're back to the shitposting phase.
Did anyone notice how short-lived the attempt at logic and reason was? Especially after I pushed Anon's shit in for him?

>>33426447
but you see it worked, because although I have never seen or heard of you I now think you are a faggot

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>>33426447

Protip:
>>33426305 and >>33426417
Are two separate people

>>33426489
>think
Give him 30 seconds to get down to his usual shitposting form. The stench of rotting cum wafting from your monitor will assuage any lingering doubt.

>>33426447
Judging by your mannerisms, you really are the prime example of a tripfag

This is all just grandstanding. You make a half assed attempt at an argument, and then bow to an imaginary audience when somebody, regardless if they are the same person you were conversing with, gets sick of your shit.

You really are lonely.

>>33426489
>>33426503
>>33426522
>>33426552
See how they abandon the original topic in favor of shitposting?

This will go on for a while...

>>33412344
ITT: Gimmick rounds

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>>33426748
How is that Enfield converted to 54r coming along?

>>33412387
What the fuck does "literally" even mean in that sentence? Fucking foreigners and their misuse of English.

>>33418404
I hope you remember that the next time someone shoves you and you fall over.

>>33415170

For when you want to kill your opponent ~beautifully~ with flowers, like a true warrior.

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>>33426783
Oh man it's badass. sub-MOA. It's a fucking killer.

>>33421371

What's your opinion on BLM? After all, you are a black, but you are also one of us.

So basically hollowpoints are a meme round and we should all use FMJ?

I like this Zed guy, he's smart.

>>33426783
>>33427231
Nice try, kid.

>>33427482
I wouldn't definitely say that hollowpoints are a meme, in the same way Baptists are a meme.

With both, the people on the outside looking in see how absurd and silly it is, but the people who are immersed in it can't imagine any other way.

>>33427679
Oh, the irony, lol.

>>33426748

It's okay Zed, true Anons know you're the best.

>>33427736

Fascinating! I, too, look upon Baptists with disdain. I'm glad I never spent money on hollowpoints, then! What other wisdom do you have to share with me today?

>>33427750
t. Zed

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>>33427679

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>>33427782
MFW

>>33412716
>>33412827
>Zed
is this even the right tripcode? i don't keep track.

>>33427736

Wow, you're so cool.

>>33427370
>tripfag
>one of us

wew

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>>33412716
Oh man this shit takes me back, reaction macro and all. Good times.

>>33412344
For anything below 9x19, best just to use FMJ.

I've seen good .380 or 9x18 JHPs, but the best ones barely meet the FBI standard.

Heard an old fat guy sucking glock dick in a gun store talking about how awesome RIP rounds were the other day, this thread reminded of that.

>>33429100
This is accurate. I would only add this:

For 9x19mm and up, using JHP is fine provided the feed reliability is not compromised, and the user understands that the bullet construction offers no real advantage in terminal ballistic effectiveness over FMJ.