Mouse guns

>>33379831
Bigger bullet= more damage. Shooting 357 out of a 1 in barrel compared to 38. makes no difference because they are the same caliber. If you shot a 44 mag out of a 1 in barrel it performs better.
Plus 25 acp is less popular and expensive than 380

>>33380528
delet this

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>>33379831
My Mouse gun.

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>>33379831

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9 rounds of .25ACP would probably cause some discomfort. I don't actually carry it though, .32ACP is generally my limit and even that I prefer in a compact double stack like a CZ83 or Beretta 81FS.

>>33381696
>936 KB JPG9 rounds of .25ACP would probably cause some discomfort.
How would you like to stand in front of someone shooting it? I guess you'd do it for enough money if someone just gave you safety glasses to protect yourself with?

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>>33381722

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a BB gun if I can help it, on the off chance it hits something important like an eye.

I can't tell if you're baiting or not. 25ACP will work and will kill someone but it's far from good even as pistol calibers go. I don't carry one because I've got options I consider better. If you wanna carry a .25 I suggest practicing mag dumping at the face. The low recoil at least makes it very easy to do.

want one so fucking badly but not old enough
tfw antigun family

WINRAR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hnRJ0j0Mqo

>>33381772

What's that on the right?

>>33382066

French WWI contract Savage 1917. It's a rotating barrel striker fired double stack .32ACP from the turn of the century.

>>33379831
I carry a Glock 26 with a backup Beretta .32 acp. If I have to reload or clear a jam pulling another gun is just as fast for me. Also, the ability to pull 2 guns at once is cool.

.25 acp is very lethal when used correctly, at least for Vasili Blokhin.

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So, did Beretta actually discontinue the 21a for good, or did they just stop making batches temporarily? I saw a NOS one at the local gun shop for $400 a couple weeks ago, but that's pretty damn steep considering what they went for a couple years back.

>>33382531

I still see them for sale pretty regularly. Either they are still making them or the last production run was massive.

>>33382345

It's beautiful...

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Slide can be hard to pull back but its a fun gun to shoot.

>>33382443
>.25 acp is very lethal when used correctly
no amount of practice and skill can make up for the calibers lack of penetration. Everything from .32 and up can punch deep enough with the right ammo, but .25 can't.

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>>33379831

.22lr checking in. Shit is featherweight, zero print, and carries 8+1. Love it. I know some of you niggers may hate, but 9 rounds of .22lr will give anybody a bad day.

I've owned:

Two Seecamps
Kel-Tec P32
Taurus TCP
Sig 238
Smith 638

Ask me anything I guess. Seecamps are shit BTW.

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>>33389241
>carry gun
>rimfire

>>33379831

God, I've probably owned more of these things than I can count.

>Rohms
>Lorcins
>Intratec Tec-38
>Ravens
>Jennings
>Bryco
>Calwestco
>Reck
>Spesco P-51
>Seecamp
>Dreyse Vest Pocket
>Colt Vest Pocket
>Baby Browning
>Dickson Detective
>Galesis
>Sterlings
>CDM Derringer
>Just about every type of Rohm RG 10 type pistol from every importer that I know of
>Sundance
>H&R / Webley pocket autos
>Savage 1907/1917

There are also actual mouse guns, but I've never owned one. Like:

http://auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/781/lot/275082/cowans-auctions-gopher-gun-co-trap-gun

>>33386641
>no amount of practice and skill can make up for the calibers lack of penetration
So all those polish officers were okay?

My mouse fun saved my life
>Be me, innawoods
>Girlfriend is there too
>Just popped a squirrel with my pellet rifle
>Cooking that sweet acorn nigger on a fire
>Bear stumbles out of the bushes
>Me and girlfriend start running
>One shot to my girlfriends knee is all it took for her to go down
>Gave me time to escape
And people say not to carry .25

>>33389572
Which one do you still carry and why is it a Smith 638?

>>33390905

Hi dad. Mind if I borrow that joke for my Myspace page?

>>33390966

I still have the Smith 638, and the P32 and TCP. I carry the Smith because it's great in an IWB holster and just a cool gun.

Can't decide between the P32 or TCP for pocket carry. Both are tiny light guns. The Kel-Tec is lighter and lower recoil, but the Taurus is better made and more powerful. I really should just make up my mind and sell one.

>>33391027
Honestly if you're using the right ammo, I'd prefer 32 over 380 anyway.

>>33390905
kek. that joke never gets old.

>>33389572
>Seecamps are shit BTW.
no they're damn good guns. they just lost all of their workers for 3 or 4 years and the guns ran for shit. Seecamp even admitted to it. new guns are mint again like the old ones.

>>33389241
Just bought one, thanks anon

>>33391087

I have Euro FMJ for it, like Fiocchi and Geco. I just like how the Taurus feels. It's a more solid gun with more metal parts.

>>33381696
My uncle was a police officer in Chicago in the 70s. One of the undercover guys mag dumped with a 25 when something got out of hand. A big angry black guy died slowly and was unable to hurt anyone from the damage to his lungs and spine. Any gun beats no gun, some just give you better odds

How effective would carrying two mouse guns be? Pull one, mag dump, drop, pull other, mag dump.

>>33393290
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieiIbfl8SI
I personally carry 2 as they're light as fuck and I like the option of having an extra gun just incase.

it's a wash for most semis except maybe the heel release variety.

>>33393393
keep in mind this guy isn't dropping the first gun and probably doesn't train drawing a second gun so that may slow him down. real world for the mousegun will be slower in reloading (tiny or heel mag release) and draws tend to be slower too as the guns are so light and tiny.

Whenever I go from fullsize to mouse draw I get that split second, "am I holding a gun?' delay because the things are so tiny.

>>33379831
Also the Seecamp 380, like you pictured there, has an interesting delayed-blowback action. That split second delay in opening the breech after firing allows higher chamber pressure to build, giving you a higher muzzle velocity from the same length barrel, as compared to a standard blowback action, which is what most pocket guns have.

>>33394976
>interesting delayed blowback action
You can't just say it's interesting and not say how it works.

>>33379831
2005 called, it wants your cell phone back.

>>33395418
I'm paraphrasing, the Seecamp folks say it better, but basically there are roughened areas cut into the chamber. When firing, the round the brass expands to fully seal the chamber, like in any normal gun, but as the brass also expands into those deeper rough areas it creates more friction so the shell casing drags on the chamber initially as it tries to eject, momentarily holding the slide fully forward. As chamber pressure continues to build, also increasing bullet velocity, eventually pressure builds high enough to overcome the friction of those rough areas and the slide is pushed back and the casing is ejected.

The upside is that you get a Seecamp 380 in the same size package as the average 25 auto, but with the same muzzle velocities as mid size 380 pistols. The downside is that as the roughened chamber areas start to plug with carbon fouling, the system is less effective and your muzzle velocity starts to decrease. They recommend giving the chamber a good scrubbing with a bore brush every 50 rounds to keep the system working well and keep muzzle velocities up.

>>33395418
>>33395688
As a side note, Seecamp invented "miniaturization" tech, one of the most revolutionary improvements in semi auto pistols in half a century.

They created a telescoping recoils spring system, where there is a recoil spring, and then an inner recoil spring that controls the recoil assembly collapsing in on itself. It basically kicked off the revolution of tiny carry guns in medium calibers (formerly mostly only in mousegun calibers) that we saw in the 90s and early 2000s.

Glock was one of the first to license that tech, it's what you see in the recoil spring assy of the Glock 26/27 and now in 4th gen Glocks. In addition to allowing smaller semi-autos in medium and large calibers, it gives a longer recoil impulse with lower felt recoil in full size guns.

A few companies licensed that tech in the 90s but most companies chose to wait until Seecamp's design patent expired in around 1998. That's why you saw so many other companies come out with tiny pocket guns right after that year.

Has anyone compared the seecamp 32 to the naa guardian 32? The seecamp really interested me, but I'm turned off by the following aspects of the design:
>reliability is optimized for hollow points that cost $1/rnd
>mag disconnect prevents slide from being fully retracted when mag not inserted
>no iron sights
>heel magazine release and flush fitting mag combination
>field strip involves punching out pins

The guardian 32 seems to address all of these, but I'm not sure how much bigger it is. Is there even a size difference between a guardian 32 and something like a sig p238?
Is the guardian a good gun?

>>33395981
I have the NAA, got looking at the Seecamp just because it was a tiny bit smaller and more rounded. Decided it wasn't worth buying another gun for such a small difference. Then I saw the Seecamp 380. Same size package as the 32. That gave me a reason to upgrade.

Yes, the Seecamps can be a bit ammo sensitive, but to be honest both the NAA and Seecamp really whack you in the web of the hand when you shoot them. It's not a gun you're likely to go to the range and shoot a couple hundred rounds out of. If you do your hand will be feeling it the next day. Once I shot a couple hundred rounds through it to make sure I trusted it and that the ammo functions well, I only shoot a couple mags through it when I go practice. Most of my marksmanship practice is with bigger guns. These things are meant for point shooting at very close range anyway.

Also just because the Seecamp is optimized for a hollowpoint doesn't mean it won't shoot FMJ. Every gun is unique and what works well in one of any make or model isn't guaranteed to work in the next one. Try them and see if they work in yours (if you get one).

The Seecamp is a little bit smaller, but the big advantage over the NAA is that it has fewer rough corners. I like my NAA, but now that I have a Seecamp I find I always carry that as a last ditch gun and leave the NAA at home.

>>33395688
>>33395706
That is a hilariously nigger rigged delayed blowback system. Interesting bit of mouse gun history too, thanks.

>>33396689
>nigger rigger blowback
The technical term is "retarded blowback." (Seriously.)

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>>33395981

Never handled a Seecamp but I have an NAA 32. It's worked perfectly for me but the trigger was kinda rough and gritty when I first got it. They are very easy to take apart and some polishing with flitz on contact surfaces worked wonders. Specifically the trigger bar and the sides of the sear and hammer where they hit the sides of the grove they sit in inside the frame.

>>33396062
I heard that the .32 caliber models don't hurt that much to shoot, but this is a non-issue. I wouldn't shoot hundreds of rounds at a time at the range. Is the NAA Guardian you own the .32 or .380 version?

The ammo sensitivity was more for the .32 model, from what I hear. The .380 model was designed more recently. Since the only widely available hollow point loading for .32 ACP available at the time the original .32 caliber pistol was designed was the Winchester Silvertip, the designer made the gun to cycle this particular loading reliably, but at a cost of some other hollow points not even fitting in the magazine, and FMJ ammo generally not being considered 100% reliable. IMO, this is bullshit. Pistols can be designed to cycle a wide range of ammo. From everything I've heard, the NAA Guardians will cycle anything. Plus, maybe I don't want to carry Silvertips, but instead carry FMJs for the extra penetration.

>>33397085
>>33396062
Does it feel like kind of a thick gun to you in hand, and do you know if the wood grips that NAA sells will slim down the grip any?

>>33395981
>>reliability is optimized for hollow points that cost $1/rnd
>>mag disconnect prevents slide from being fully retracted when mag not inserted
>>no iron sights
>>heel magazine release and flush fitting mag combination
>>field strip involves punching out pins

The only ones of these that seem like a real problem to me are the lack of iron sights (and those aren't too important at bad breath distances) and the weird thing about the slide not coming back, which could be worked around by just taking a few extra steps when unloading the weapon.

The heel magazine release is a plus because it's a pocket gun and you don't want the mag ejecting on you accidentally. I don't care about the field strip because I wouldn't be shooting the gun enough to constantly need to clean it. If I have to carry with expensive hollow points, that's fine. .32 is a weak round anyway, so there probably isn't much difference between FMJ.

>>33389241
I've heard .22lr is the worst concealed carry possible by faggots who just spout memes on here, but would it be reliable enough to take someone down in self defense?
I'm not asking about combat scenarios or oper8ing or anything, but as a conceal carry the lighter the better imo, considering getting one

>>33389898
>H&R / Webley pocket autos
Nigga how

>>33398055
>bad breath distances
I never liked this term. Self-defense situations occur at a wide range of distances. If they're already close enough that I can smell their breath, I may not have enough time to draw a gun from my pocket of all places and fire it before my arm is grabbed by the attacker and gun taken from me. I don't know what distance I will realize that I'm in fear for my life or decide to act to aid another person's life. I find it highly presumptive and irresponsible that my gun maker has decided for me that he knows best what distances I'll be able to hit an attacker accurately.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of ways that I really admire the Seecamp for being innovative, but this is a huge liability in my mind.

>>33395706
neat I found the patent
https://www.google.com/patents/US4201113

>>33398133
The round, once it actually fires, is capable of killing people with *some* regularity. Bigger is better, but .22lr does get the job done. Just be aware that depending on barrel length even your super high velocity CPRN loads (CCI Stinger, Rem Viper, Browning 1435, Win Super X, etc) might not achieve more than 8" of penetration and you're pretty much guaranteed to get no appreciable expansion.

The problem with .22lr (and all other rimfire rounds) is the unreliable nature of rimfire ignition. Last thing you need in a SD scenario is a fucking dud round, which happens with regularity even with "quality" .22lr.

I've owned two Seecamps. It's too late to get into details to night, but I can explain exactly how these things are at best outdated and at worst bad guns.

Something like a P32 or an LCP is just so much nicer to handle in real life, even if the plastic feels cheap.

Oh, and other than the recoil spring it's not an innovative design. He cribbed the lockwork from a European pocket pistol Ian did a video on.

>>33398285
rimfire hasn't been "unreliable" for 30 years. I have never had a 22lr not fire.
The problem with 22lr is that, in blowback operated firearms, a poorly loaded round might not be able to properly cycle the weapon. (or a mucked up, improperly cleaned weapon might be to tight to properly cycle from a decent round)

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>>33398534
>I have never had a 22lr not fire.

Either you've never fired more than maybe 50 rounds of the stuff in your life, or else you're lying. One of these things is definitely, 100%, dead certain, true. Everybody on this board and on any firearms board, and anywhere in the world, and possibly in space too, who is familiar with the caliber knows that you're completely full of shit.

>>33397999

It's not super chunky, a little thicker than a Kel-Tec P32, about the same as a Beretta Tomcat. It does feel dense however. It's a beefy little steel gun.

>>33398133
>would it be reliable enough to take someone down
It's basically the same as stabbing somebody with a 22cal icepick. It might work, it might just be a loud noise and a little sharp pain. You're counting on a tiny projectile with poor potential for penetration to reach vital CNS tissue, or something else which will eventually stop the threat. You can't expect somebody to stop doing what they're determined to do at the moment just because you made a bang and poked them in the belly.

>>33380528
i came here to laugh at you.

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>>33393290
>two mouse guns
>not having a rat king's worth of guns

>>33399005
>It's basically the same as stabbing somebody with a 22cal icepick. It might work, it might just be a loud noise and a little sharp pain.

No the fuck it isn't!!! One of my dumb ass friends was fucking around and shot me in the leg with a 22lr hollow point and I can tell you it fucked my shit up. It wasn't a little bit of pain, more like someone taking a hot poker out of the fire and pushing it through my leg. Luckily it entered at an angle and came back out about 6 inches over from where it went in. The exit hole was nothing to laugh at either,

>>33398624
I usually get a few bad ones out of very couple of boxes I shoot. I'll go out and shoot 200+ rounds at a time.

>>33398225

If you can't land vital hits with it at 5-7, that's on you.

This is not a gun for stopping a whole gang or an active shooter. If ya want that, go at least 1-2 sizes bigger.

>>33398624

I'm a consistent shooter and I've never had a malfunction with good .22lr

>>33399955
Exactly.

>>33400383
>I'm a consistent shooter
I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
>good .22lr
Also meaningless, since rimfire is inherently flawed.

>>33400502
I think he means he goes to the range consistently, that is to say on a regular basis, like how /fit/ consistently works out and niggers consistently steal Xboxes.

>>33400554
That and consistency means accuracy, so it may be a roundabout way of saying he's an accurate shooter.

>>33400554
>>33400840
Neither of which makes his limited experience and incorrect claims any more accurate.

>>33400502

This---> >>33400554

I shoot a lot, although since I shoot what I use for work the most, I'll admit that I only drag out the .22lr about once or twice a month, when the kids are around or I need some quiet time.

But with match-quality or varmint loads, I never have issues.

>>33399005
So, it's like a military cartridge ?

>>33397999

I have the NAA 32 and the Seecamp 380. The NAA isn't painful when you shoot it, but it is a little sharp. My wife finds it painful but her hands are a lot smaller and her hands aren't as used to shooting a lot. I shoot a lot but I start feeling it after a couple mags. If I shoot more than 3 or 4 mags I'll also feel it the next day, a little bit of soreness in the muscle in the web of my thumb.
>>33397984

The NAA 32 is thicker than the Seecamp but isn't an overly thick gun in my opinion, but it is a little bit heavy. Very solid. The plastic grips are very thin and while I haven't tried the wood grip I can't imagine it being any thinner.

---

As for ammo, my NAA will cycle anything I've put through it so far, including several brands of FMJ and hollowpoints, and Glaser ammo.

I'm not too worried about only shooting hollowpoints in my Seecamp. I haven't tried FMJ in it yet to see if it works but even if it'll only cycle HP ammo, who cares?

When choosing carry ammo you should shoot at least a couple hundred rounds of any HP ammo FROM THE SAME LOT NUMBER just to be sure it's fully reliable in your weapon. That gives me a reasonable amount of practice with that weapon to help me familiarize myself with how it shoots. And if that ammo cycles 100% I keep one or two boxes of the same stuff for carry purposes.

I cycle out my carry ammo at least once a year so it's fresh and 50-100 rds lets me do that plenty of times when I only have a 6rd mag. I realize ammo doesn't exactly expire with age, but when you're sometimes chambering and unchambering rounds, moving in and out of different temperature and weather conditions, condensation and other factors mean I like to rotate my carry ammo at least annually.

The majority of my handgun practice is with 9mm and 22lr pistols. That keeps the cost down and lets me do a lot of practice for the money. Ideally I'd do a crapload of practice with my mouseguns but, meh.

>>33398469
If you read the manual on a Seecamp he fully admits the inspiration for his pistol design. 99% of the handguns on the market follow one of two main designs and he gives fair credit in the owner's manual as to the origins of his.

The Seecamp 2-spring recoil system was revolutionary. Their method of delaying blowback is... low-tech at best, but hey, it works. You just have to keep the chamber clean.

The main thing I don't like about the Seecamp pistols is that in order to keep the gun as small as possible, the magazine itself provides some of the "structure" of the gun when it fires. If you try to operate it with the magazine removed you'll fuck up the action because some of the springs and whatnot will pop out of place. Most guns prevent this sort of thing by containing the moving parts in the receiver. They could have done that in the Seecamp but it would have been at the cost of higher weight and size. By using the inserted magazine as part of the structure to keep moving parts where they're supposed to be when it's firing, they were able to save weight and space, which is the whole damn reason I want a tiny pocket gun.

If it wasn't for things like the Seecamp and the NAA 32, which they admit had their inspiration in the Seecamp, I'd probably be carrying a Beretta 21 as a pocket gun, and I'd prefer something bigger than a 22 or 25 caliber.

>>33403494
Thanks for the reply. I know that neither gun is really intended as a range shooter, but I enjoy shooting my guns. Even if it's only 50 rounds at a time, the NAA seems to offer certain advantages from an ownership perspective. It's not like .32 ammo is expensive. You can get it for $13 a box online now, which is the same price range as 9mm. I still find it fun to fire mouse guns at the range, but I don't think I'd really enjoy shooting a mouse gun with no sights.

For carry, I am not convinced that .32 ACP has the power to be effective in a hollow point design, so I really want a gun that is able to cycle FMJ reliably for the extra penetration that the solid bullets offer.

>>33405351
I'm glad it helped.

I'm fond of the NAA 32. I'd wanted a Seecamp 32 to replace the NAA 22lr revolver I'd been carrying in a wallet holster for years. I had to stop carrying that 22 and get rid of the wallet holster when the ATF arbitrarily decided that it constituted an AOW. The Seecamps were hard to find at the time but then eventually NAA came out with the Guardian in... 97 (I think) so I snapped one right up when they were first released. The ability of the NAA to shoot FMJ influenced my decision at the time also.

The closest thing to a problem that it's ever given me was the grip screw on the left side is rusted all to crap but that's only because of sweat from carrying it for most of the past 20 years. I vaguely recall that some people had reliability problems with the first run of magazines that were sold with the guns during the first few months of production. I never had a problem with mine but to be safe I took advantage of the offer from NAA to replace the mags with upgraded ones.

I probably haven't shot more than 800 rounds or so through it and most of that was in test firing a box each of every variety of 32acp ammo I could find. Haven't had a malfunction with it yet. Knock on wood.

These days though I'm really infatuated with my Seecamp 380. Just seems amazing to me having a 380 that's a little smaller than my NAA 32. Of course, I'm also easily amused, so take that for whatever it's worth.

>>33400368
>If you can't land vital hits with it at 5-7, that's on you.

That's not what I'm saying at all.