How could have Japan won WW2?

>>33301795
Dont bomb pearl harbor and focus on maybe taking parts of the soviet union

>>33301795

The entire premise of Japanese strategy (that Americans would give up if a few shocking defeats were inflicted) was completely false. The state of USA manufacturing capability at the time meant that America could quickly replace lost ships, whereas Japan could not. And so after Japan lost their aircraft carriers at Midway, they were perma-fucked and couldn't really do anything meaningful for the rest of the war. Maybe, just maybe, if they had won decisively at Midway things would have gone differently, but I doubt it.

>>33301827
War between the US and Japan was unavoidable. The US was pushing for a war with Japan.

>>33301795
There was literally no way for Japan to win a protracted war again the US. They didn't have the raw materials or the industrial capacity to compete.

They wanted to play with the big boys as an island nation naval superpower, exactly like the UK, but the UK was much more developed and had allies that were actually in a position to help.

That said, maybe if they had used all that steel they wasted on their completely useless Yamato-class artillery barges on a tank that couldn't be defeated by a tactical rock things could have gone a little better.

There's really nothing they could have done. Japan was already preparing hard for war and at their height, they still only had one-tenth the industrial output of the United States. Since they would have to go to war with the US eventually - this was inevitable regardless of pearl harbor - they simply never had a chance at world conquest.
>>33301843
Exactly. Even if they won Midway, one crushing defeat would eliminate their ability to do war with our navy.

>>33301843
>The entire premise of Japanese strategy (that Americans would give up if a few shocking defeats were inflicted) was completely false.
It's weird because the US Navy's doctrine was actually pretty similar to Japan right before the war. In the 1930's, both the Japanese and Americans believed a naval war between their countries would be resolved with a single decisive battle. I don't remember what happened that changed American doctrine, but we ended up doing the island hopping campaign.

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>>33301795
>Where did Japan go wrong in WW2?
Try to pick a fight with the United States of America.

>>33301795
>Keep the best ships in your navy out of service the entire first half of the war with America in case you need to use "that"
>By the time you have to they have been idle so long that they have become obsolete

>>33301911
AWOOOOGA
OPEN UP THOSE PORTS

>>33301916
>>Keep the best ships in your navy out of service the entire first half of the war with America in case you need to use "that"
But Shinano wasn't launched until 44.

>>33301795
>>33301867
They didn't have a way to win a protracted war, but I think it was possible for them to sue for peace. Japan's greatest weakness was their lack of oil. After the 1905 Russo-Japanese War, where Japan won, Japan wanted the Sakhalin Island which had 14-16 billion barrels of oil. The US didn't participate in this war but during negotiations took the side of Russia and prevented Japan from acquiring oil independence.

I mention this because when Japan seized control of the Dutch East Indies, they did so predominantly because of the oil fields. Their mission to capture the oil fields was successful but the ship that was transporting all their civilian engineers and technicians was suck by a submarine.

Without oil, Japan didn't have the means to train their people, build weapons, run their economy, fuel their navy, and etc.

>>33301795
1) Build more anti-submarine ships
2) They had the technology for advanced radar and a Japanese scientist created it but they chose not to use it. Fucking use it.
3) They seize control of the dutch east indies and prevent that one ship that contained all their engineers from being destroyed while in transport.
4) Win midway decisively

I think that would be enough to win ww2. Or enough time to secure all of Asia uncontested, remove Australia from WW2, and then sue for peace.

>>33301930
>Their mission to capture the oil fields was successful but the ship that was transporting all their civilian engineers and technicians was suck by a submarine.
Seriously? Couldn't they send another ship full of engineers?

>>33301930
Japan also got slamfucked by a few (un)fortunately timed earthquakes that really fucked up their factories.

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>>33301870

The explosive rate of shipbuilding in America during 1938 - 1944 is almost frightening. In 1938, America had 0 amphibious vessels, by 1944 there were 2147 amphibious vessels in service as preparation for an invasion of the Japanese home islands. Carriers went from 5 to 25, and that's before even factoring in escort carriers. There is simply no way that Japan could have competed with this level of output.

>>33301943
They did but that ship contained a large number of their premiere engineers and oil technicians.

>>33301943

Japan only had a small number of trained engineers. Losing any of them was devastating and after they lost the first ship of engineers, they couldn't afford to risk losing another batch.

>>33301943
They would later get the oil fields of Indonesia up to an adequate amount to fit their oil needs but it would never like it was. Also there was the problem of bringing oil back to Japan.

Their merchant navy was being sunk by American submarines and Japan didn't have enough ASW vessels to secure their supply lines or guard merchant ships.

>>33301954
It's amazing how we went from basically a laughable military to global power projection in a few years.

>>33301984
It could've happened sooner if visionaries like Chennault hadn't been sidelined by muh invincible bomber shills.

>>33301984

When you are getting funded by the entirety of WW2 then it's not surprising.

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>>33301984

I wouldn't call this "laughable." The US started the war out with a decent navy, albeit somewhat smaller than what Japan had. It just went from "okay" to "completely dwarfing the rest of the world combined" in a very short period of time.

>>33301795
Once war got started, it was literally impossible for Japan to out-produce the US's sheer industrial power. If they had actually used their battleships and submarines efficiently to destroy the weaker Navy early in the war, perhaps they could have sued for a better peace. Focusing on battleship production (like wasting all that money and resources on the Yamatos which did jack shit) and failing to use their submarine fleet to destroy merchant vessels were some of their biggest mistakes. But after Pearl Harbor their defeat was inevitable.

>>33301954
Damn i didn't know they cranked out so many ships

>>33301795
>How could have Japan won WW2?
By not fighting in the first place. Japan simply never had the manpower, industrial capacity, or brain power to ever out compete the USA and her pacific allies.

>>33301954
god damn

>>33301795
Japan LITERALLY could not have won WW2.

>>33302542
This.

The us had them beat in resources, logistics and manpower. There is no way they could have beaten them

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>How could a country SMALLER THAN FUCKING CALIFORNIA beat the USA
Fuck I hate this board.

Same stupid fucking questions every day.

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>>33301849
Double teaming the USSR wouldn’t have hurt though. After wiping out them the US would have no allies on the continent.

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>>33302581

>Land-mass is a measure of military capability

The only way Japan could have won is if they focused on taking over China. Without the Americans intervening due to Japan's attack on the US the Japanese would have crushed China.

Then they would have a nation rich with resources capable of producing the means in which to fight other nations. It would not guarantee any remote possibility of winning anything against the US, but they could take India, Australia, Russia, etc. It would be a long ass war though.

Their priorities were terrible and they thought too highly of themselves.

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>>33301954
This gives me freedom.

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>>33301795

The only way that Japan wins is if they had found the cheat code that quadruples their industrial capacity and also makes their surface ships immune to submarines.

>>33302623

Does China have oil?

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>>33301795
I'm no tactician, but they might have done slightly better if their very first move of the war wasn't immediately and severely pissing off the world's military superpower who beforehand didn't particularly care about involvement in the war.

>>33302676
yes but it was not discovered until the 1950s

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>>33302614
Land mass is a measure of raw materials, of population, of arable land, of total industrial output and angles for attack. All of which the USA beats Japan by the very nature of the way the Earth is shaped by a factor. How much of Japan is arable? 42,500km. The USA? 1,605,000km. You could duplicate Japan 200 times and it STILL wouldn't have as much usable land as the USA.

Not even a fucking contest.

The USA didn't beat Japan because of some mythical power USMC coons hold in their groin or dazzling naval strategy, we won because we had more dirt than they did. End of story.

>>33302737
>The USA didn't beat Japan because of some mythical power USMC coons hold in their groin or dazzling naval strategy, we won because we had more dirt than they did. End of story.

Didn't the Army do most of the fighting in the Pacific?

>>33301795
By not being Japan but being the US.

>>33301843
>he entire premise of Japanese strategy (that Americans would give up if a few shocking defeats were inflicted) was completely false
What you describe as the premise of Japanese strategy is not only wrong, but the complete opposite of the truth.

>>33301896
>In the 1930's, both the Japanese and Americans believed a naval war between their countries would be resolved with a single decisive battle
This is a dumb, reductionist interpretation of the doctrines influenced by Mahan and you should be ashamed of your retardedness. The central idea of Mahanian doctrine is that the best way to win a war was to destroy the opponent's navy rather than nibble at your enemy's shipping with commerce raiders. This was, and remains, the best way to win a war. The only problem was no one, in WW1 or WW2, gave a decisive battle because the outcome could too easily be predicted by either side.

>>33301795
Focus on actually defeating China.
Invade USSR.
India I guess?
?
?
...
Profit.

In all seriousness, Japan should have focused on everything besides pissing off the USA, until they had the capabilities to actually turn their entire economy against the USA. So after they would theoretically take Australia and New Zealand.

Note: Pearl Harbor was a mistake no matter how you look at it from the Japanese perspective as it not only got the US into the war earlier then it would have otherwise(only do pearl harbor with corresponding invasion of Hawaii & Alaska) along with making us Americans hot and bothered about muh vengeance remember the Pearl Harbor.

>>33301795
There's no way that Japan could've beaten the US.

I'm not just saying that because I'm American either. The US was a juggernaut in more ways than one.

>>33302793
>Japan should have focused on everything besides pissing off the USA
Trying to take China or anything else would've pissed off the USA and in fact led to crippling, nation-killing sanctions IRL.

>>33301795

If they could have taken Hawaii they would have pushed the US back 3-4 years, but in the end they'd still loose as they'd become the higher priority over Hitler. In which case we might have seen chemical weapons being used against them instead of just straight firebombing, meanwhile Hitler would have held out long enough to get nuked. Either way it ends with a bloodbath as it makes V-day a much realer possibility.

>>33301930

>but I think it was possible for them to sue for peace.

The UN didn't exist during WW2, if they wanted more oil they'd either have to take it for themselves or abide by US demands. They chose the former and the result was war.

>>33302763
In the South Pacific after the Guadalcanal Campaign, yes. The Marines followed the Fast Carrier Task Force around in the Central Pacific.

>>33301795
>How could have Japan won WW2?
Been happy with manchuria and the prospect of austrailia, and not wake the sleeping giant.

>>33302865
If they had taken Hawaii the US would've sought a diplomatic end. It wouldn't have been worth it to try to fight Japan while going around 3/4 of the globe around Africa.
But then taking Hawaii was impossible so there's that.

>>33302737
Your comparison is moot because Japan held Manchuria, Korea, and Formosa at the time.
US will come ahead by a large margin regardless but your post shows a striking ignorance of history or an inability to reason.

>>33301930

>I think that would be enough to win ww2. Or enough time to secure all of Asia uncontested,

No, because the US would get radar/sonar as well. The situation would only escalate from there especially as jet bombers start being fielded. The US would simply build more bombs and completely obliterate them. Even if they held out very long, say past 1946, America has over 20 nuclear warheads by that point. By 1950 America has over 100. There is no way they could win against that, especially if the US also decides to use chemical weapons.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p12_weber.html

They'd be completely and utterly eradicated especially if they somehow managed to secure China against the communists.

>>33302888

>If they had taken Hawaii the US would've sought a diplomatic end. It wouldn't have been worth it to try to fight Japan while going around 3/4 of the globe around Africa.

No they wouldn't. It'd cause everyone in California to panic and would make them much more resolved to tolerate rationing so more ships could be built. A new navy would have been built in the San Francisco Bay, just like it was in real life.

>But then taking Hawaii was impossible so there's that.

Not if enough ships and men are shoved at the problem, and this is where Japan's lack of manpower/resources (compared to America) become a problem. And then there are chemical weapons which would have been freely used against the invaders.

>>33302902
The acquisition of Manchuria was fairly recent. I think what that anon is arguing is that the arable land of the US allowed us to build an efficient society because we always had a stable amount of agricultural resources.

Japan never had access to a vast amount of agricultural resources.

>>33302737
I agree with you

>>33302946
>A new navy would have been built in the San Francisco Bay, just like it was in real life.
Problem is there's no base for the new navy to operate from, while Japan would have a huge base in the middle of Pacific to base thousands of aircraft and a fleet. Of course Japan did not have such resources but we are talking about a fictional Japan that could take Hawaii.

>Not if enough ships and men are shoved at the problem
It's probably not possible to shove enough ships and men. Once an invasion plan gets large enough, you lose the element of surprise, the most significant factor in the success of PH attack. If Japan prepped 10 divisions (impossibility), US would have caught wind of it and either preemptively attack or had enough to time to station 5 divisions and 1000 aircraft, more than enough to defeat the Japanese force. These escalations of force would scale linearly until Japan hits a supplies bottleneck.

>>33302946
they are just going to snap their fingers and build a new navy like that!

If Japan took Hawaii and destroyed Panama Canal, the US has no choice but to settle for peace.

>>33303013

>Problem is there's no base for the new navy to operate from

What do you think the SF Bay is? There's also Pudget Sound. A new one would be built.

>>33302609
Not quite, US had friends among the insurgencies, particularly the chinese and vietnamese.

>>33301849
The US Congress was heavily anti-war until Pearl Harbor, back then the President still needed a vote to pass before sending troops anywhere.

Had the Japanese just left the Chinese alone, and just coordinated with the European Axis Powers, WW2 would have been a completely different ball game.

But they did retarded shit and lost.

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>>33301795

Japan attacking the U.S. was an even poorer tactical move than Germany attacking Russia.

If only Japan and Germany had teamed up for the ultimate blitzkrieg pincher attack against Russia, man that would have gave WW2 a real neato twist.

I love every single thing about Operation Hailstone though, talk about Karma.

>>33301795

Japan lacked raw resources. Full stop. The European powers and the USA said "hey, stop invading Manchuria RIGHT NOW or we will stop giving you any oil and raw resources"

Japan said fuck that and just decided to take what it wanted. It wanted to be a powerhouse and never bow to the will of the West ever again. It then created a string of defensive island fortresses and hit America. They thought that America would just back down and not stomp a mud hole into them.

At the time, this wasn't a crazy idea. America at the time was not the World Police it is today, the USA was very isolationist. The Japanese thought they could make such a strong and annoying line of defenses that they could hold their new islands and resources and conquer Manchuria and China and just have a good old time.

They were severely wrong. Even if the USA had lost five Midways they could just keep pumping out ships and men and would eventually grind Japan to dust. The simple fact of the matter is the USA had better ships, better planes, better logistics and a vastly better manufacturing base. Japan never intended to get into a war of attrition with the USA, but that is what happened.

>>33303043
>What do you think the SF Bay is? There's also Pudget Sound. A new one would be built.
SF is 2400 miles from Hawaii. It's not feasible to launch an amphibious invasion over 2400 miles, especially when you're up against a force that was capable of doing that.

>>33303021

>they are just going to snap their fingers and build a new navy like that!

That's what happened in real life, so yes.

>If Japan took Hawaii and destroyed Panama Canal, the US has no choice but to settle for peace.

On what basis? The Kaiser Shipyards would still be operative. And if Japan tries attacking the mainland (at least in a serious manner), they'll only cause Californians to go completely genocidal in thought.

>>33303047
>The US Congress was heavily anti-war until Pearl Harbor
Well before Pearl Harbor the US Congress happily approved measures that were either straight up war or very likely to lead to war.

>>33303043
It's a matter of distance. SF to Asia is too far for WW2 bavy ships to operate alone. There has to be island bases in between to provide supplies and all the necessary maintenance requirements that are needed for war.

For example, fighter planes of this time only have a maximum flight range of what like 800 miles or 1000 miles?

>>33303059

>It's not feasible to launch an amphibious invasion over 2400 miles, especially when you're up against a force that was capable of doing that.

No, but it's possible to build battleships, carriers and aircraft there that can surround Hawaii and cut it off from the rest of the world. People there would starve but that's war.

>>33303058
>The European powers and the USA said "hey, stop invading Manchuria RIGHT NOW or we will stop giving you any oil and raw resources"
Japan invaded Manchuria in 1932 and neither Europe nor the US gave a shit, you inbred moron.

>America at the time was not the World Police it is today, the USA was very isolationist
Except you are completely wrong. USA stopped being isolationist around the time of Thomas Jefferson.

>>33303072

SF to Hawaii can work though. That'd be the first step here.

>>33303073
>but it's possible to build battleships, carriers and aircraft there that can surround Hawaii and cut it off from the rest of the world.
No it's not. Battleships and carriers can't hover forever and they will be summarily destroyed by a better supplied fleet that doesn't have to be supported by a base 2400 miles away.

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>>33303021

>they are just going to snap their fingers and build a new navy like that!

see >>33301954

>>33303107
If the west coast is being bombed by Japanese planes and it is disrupting production in that area, AND the panama canal is destroyed -- it doesn't matter how many ships the US builds on the east coast or in other areas. They have no means to move and supply those war ships so that they can defend the west coast.

>>33303090

The US might not have cared about China, but it definitely made people realize that Japan has expansionist intentions. This was the reason for the oil embargo.

>>33303141

Destroying the Panama canal would have been a huge deal. Did Japan ever actually try to do that? It would have made a lot of sense.

>>33303148
>This was the reason for the oil embargo.
Manchukuo happened in 1932. Oil embargo happened in 1941. Do you still think Japanese takeover of Manchuria was the reason for the oil embargo?

>>33303163
They couldn't because they didn't have Hawaii.

>>33303070
Doubtful, seeing as initial Lend-Lease agreed upon between the President & Churchill to the UK was shipping knock down kits to Canada listed as industrial goods to get past the Isolationists in Congress.

>>33303181

So in order for Japan to win the war, they would have had to capture the Hawaiian islands, which was basically impossible for them to do with the limited resources they had.

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>>33303141

I'm curious as to what bombers the Japanese had that could reach the mainland from Hawaii or were are you suggesting they can bomb the entire west cost effectively only using carriers?

Also, pump out twenty fighters in the midwest (out of range of Japanese planes) for every bomber that that the japs send. Remeber, for every bomber shot down over the mainland the japs lose and aircraft AND a plane crew. It won't take long before the japs run out of planes and crews to man them.

>>33303208
You are a special kind of stupid aren't you?
The lend-lease act was a massive military aid program that included warships.
Prior to that, 50 destroyers were sent to the UK in a deal.
Lend-lease was not some Iran-Contra-tier sekrit arrangement.
You are free to provide any source supporting your dumb fucking claims, of course.

>>33303221
yes, ergo they couldn't win.

>>33302737
that's actually not true and if you so much as did a one page research paper on the battles of Coral Sea or Midway you'd know we won the war in the pacific through our navy. A combination of proper naval strategy, having big fucking boats that have planes fly off, and having superior decryption and encryption abilities than the Japanese.

If we didn't have those, the Japanese would have dominated the pacific regardless of how many people we had over here.

>>33303208
Document: Lend Lease Act 11 March 1941

An Act Further to promote the defense of the United States, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as "An Act to Promote the Defense of the United States".

Sec. 2. As used in this Act -

(a) The term "defense article" means -

(1) Any weapon, munition. aircraft, vessel, or boat;

(2) Any machinery, facility, tool, material, or supply necessary for the manufacture, production, processing, repair, servicing, or operation of any article described in this subsection;

(3) Any component material or part of or equipment for any article described in this subsection;

(4) Any agricultural, industrial or other commodity or article for defense.

Such term "defense article" includes any article described in this subsection: Manufactured or procured pursuant to section 3, or to which the United States or any foreign government has or hereafter acquires title, possession, or control.

(b) The term "defense information" means any plan, specification, design, prototype, or information pertaining to any defense article.

>>33303101

They can hover long enough to deploy gas.

>>33302816
Sanctions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> War with USA.
Without pearl harbor US takes longer to get is shit together and attack Japan.

Note: it is hard to justify a war in pre-WW2 America against a country to defend somewhere outside the Monroe doctrine.

Can someone tell me how the nip navy stacked up against the us navy?
(In terms of design, not numbers.)

Was their naval development as incompetent as their small arms development?

>>33303341
Gas is not some magical war-winning weapon.

>>33303352
>Without pearl harbor US takes longer to get is shit together and attack Japan
US military expansion started 2 years before Pearl Harbor. Without Pearl Harbor and losing the Philippines, US will be able to pick its spot and destroy Japan with 5% of the losses it suffered in actual history.

>>33303352
>Note: it is hard to justify a war in pre-WW2 America against a country to defend somewhere outside the Monroe doctrine.
Note: it's not.

>>33301827
USSR already kicked Japan's ass.
War with USSR does not solve a single problem of pre-war Japan.
Japan army and Japan navy were two extremely hostile to each other and independent organizations. To win anything you need to solve that clusterfuck first.

>>33303365

>Can someone tell me how the nip navy stacked up against the us navy?

They did a pretty good job as far as ship design goes. The Yamato was in a class of its own. No other BB in the world could have stood against it besides its sister ship, the Musashi.

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>>33303163
they wanted to but never finished the plan
basically they wanted to come up with some really complex bombs and by the late war they just said "how about we use kamikazes instead" but by then they had to defend the homeland so the pilots supposed to be involved were sent elsewhere

>>33301795
1.Attack Pearl Harbor some other day or find another way to sink some of the US carriers in day one.
2.Just sail all the battleships to the lagoon passage to show how mad you are and maybe succeed to disable the harbour for many months.
3.Bomb Panama Canal with the seaplanes in early war.
4.Go all-out to rape all other naval bases and airfields from India to Hawaii.
5.Declare that evil Hitlers fooled you to start the war and tell everybody that you executed many nazi friends.
6.Propose peace and hope that Americans are tired of the war and come up with sensible terms.
7.[spoiler]call it win afterwards[/spoiler]

Haven't we established that the japs had the best ww1 army in ww2? so the only way they could have won was a ww1-type war.
But once they attacked pearl harbor, they completely lost. They should have focused more on taking over china and maybe double team russia with germany.

>>33303594
I think someone forgot the result of the russo-japanese war.
Russia had the better ww1 army.

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>>33303638
correct, Japan was a naval superpower, but not nearly as good on land

>>33301795
Try to decisively knock out American naval power in 1942 and sue for peace.

That's it.

>>33303638
>>33303697
I only remember the general result but I didn't know the exact detail. gonna look that up when i have time.

>>33301954
Yeah, Shokaku and Zuikaku only enter the fleet in something like August and October. The window of Japanese carrier superiority is very narrow indeed.

Strike Pearl Harbour while the carriers are in dock
Strike the submarine pens in Pearl Harbour so they won't come back to haunt you for the rest of the war
Strike the fuel storages at Pearl Harbour

If you want to go total min/max you could let some battleships get out of the port and into the sea before torpedoing them so they sink in deep water and can't be resurfaced again

Don't let the americans crack your codes and know your every move

Stress the fact to your captains that attacking Midway is a ploy to draw out the American fleet and sink it and not actually take over Midway and don't bother with the second wave (or if thats not possible, just send out the planes with ground bombs mounted and don't start changing to torpedoes on the carrier while under attack)

Buy some fucking Bofors

>>33302737
So using your own logic
Russia could beat not just germany but literally the whole world.

the fuck are you talking about, you can always buy materials from other countries, or bring them from colonies (or pillage them, like the germans did from the countries they invaded)

>>33301795
By joining the allies.

>>33303594
Germany had the best WW1 army in WW2.

>>33303538
Kamikazes couldn't dent anything stronger than a destroyer. There's no way in hell kamikaze attack could destroy reinforced concrete several meters thick.

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>>33303890
look, I didn't come up with the plan

It might have worked if they filled the planes with a ton of explosives, but yeah it was pretty stupid

>>33303638
The Russo-Japanese War is also the best example of how a powerful a rich Jew can be

>Japan was backed by loans from Jacob Schiff, the foremost Jewish banker and philanthropist of his day, who floated bonds on Wall Street that yielded $200 million, about half of Japan’s expenditures for the war

>>33302793
The US had American soldiers in China and were assisting the Chinese before Pearl Harbor.

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>>33304420
that bad feel when your people worked with the jews and helped finance the bolshevik revolution

>>33302793
Also, the public at large didn't feel anything against Japan until Pearl Harbour happened. Once that happened most people wanted to go to war with Japan (obviously the US had no choice but to declared war with such an attack occurring).

>>33301795
Persuade Hitler not to be a retard and accept the USSR's offer to join the Axis. Anything else is inevitably going to end in nukes + anime.
>>33301827
They tried that in 1939, it did not end well.

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>>33301849
>The US was pushing for a war with Japan.

I can tell where this is going.

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>>33303021

>If Japan took Hawaii and destroyed Panama Canal, the US has no choice but to settle for peace.

That's probably true. The problem is that Japan had no chance of accomplishing either of those things, even if they did have the most powerful battleship in the world.

>>33304420
>best example of how a powerful a rich Jew can be
Blame the catholics for centuries ago making the jews into bankers and tax collectors simply because they are afraid of their souls going to hell if they lended money.

>>33303141
>If the west coast is being bombed by Japanese planes and it is disrupting production in that area
And how exactly would they do that? The USAAF still exists and would just throw so many fighters over major shipyards that there was no way the Japanese could break through.

>>33305891
That's also glossing over the fact that most Japanese ships don't have the range to make the round trip from Hawaii to the West Coast, even if they somehow managed to take and base out of Hawaii.

The Yamato that nips love to bandy has a one way range of 8300 miles at cruising speed, in practice much less due to maintenance and sea conditions. The round trip from San Diego to Hawaii is 5000 miles. Once the ships get to the West Coast, they don't have that much fuel left in bunkerage, so at best they could stay a week before having to make the week long journey back to Hawaii to refuel, since Japan didn't have enough oilers to maintain a fleet at sea.

>>33301795
3rd wave at Pearl Harbor, no need to take the Island. Destroying it's oil/repair facilities forces the CV's and remaining ships back to SF/Everette for 6-8 months before facilities can be rebuilt and restocked to acceptable levels. This gives Japan time to deal with remaining BDA forces and consolidate/fortify.

Battle of Savo Island - Not run away after decimating the defending Fleet and push the advantage to sink the landing ships and have the Marine Divisions at complete mercy of your shore bombardment.

1st/2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal - Pretty much the same as Savo Island. Go balls deep and not fall back when you have the advantage, if 1st battle continued they could've controlled the sea and landed additional troops, even if they stalemated defending ships then they would only need to hold out until the 8th force arrived with reinforcements and then still had the 2nd fleet enroute also.

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But I don't want Japan to win.

If Japan won then maybe there wouldn't be any Kancolle.

>>33301795
>What could Japan have done to prepare for WW2
Stop wasting ressources on having a split competing Navy vs Army , have stronger cooperation with Germany's U-boat program the japanese could have likly traded this with their very superior torpedoes.
Closer cooperation with Germany regarding Tanks in the Sino-Japanese war would have been nice as well.
Regarding their fuel supply, somehow if they managed to crush China they could have reduced the focus on Africa by attacking the British Raj.
Also they should have not taken the obvious bait and attacked America so soon.
They should clearly have focused on widening the prety impressive technological gap and worked further with the Nazi on the Jet programs as well as spending less ressources by simply creating a whole branch dedicated to Air warfare.
Overall these changes would not change the results of war at sea but would likely change the result of the bombing attempts and the War with China heavily, causing the war to take another Turn for Japan , perharps even saving them from Total Defeat.

>>33304699
most powerful battleship GUNS in the world
It's not the most powerful if your gunlaying cannot be relied upon, and Japanese fire control was shit-tier while American was computerized.

>>33306331
>reduced the focus on Africa by attacking the British Raj
Most likely not happen. The Indians summarily smashed the Japs when they got anywhere to the British Raj.

>>33306701
The goal would not be as much to actually open a front as to create Chaos and generally strain logistics even further which is very crucial against India to provoke a Famine, once that is done start recruitement for the INA and Enjoy.

>>33302377
>>33302436
Another stat that makes my dick hard is that at the height of their production, B-17s were being produced at a rate of 30 per month.

>every evening another bomber rolls out to kill Krauts

>>33301827
And take what? Useless parts of Siberia? Japan made explosive successes early on, but by all accounts it had stretched its logistical capabilities above and beyond their limits. There's not really much more land they could have taken, to be honest.

>>33301849
It certainly was not. It had embargoed Japan, obviously because it was aiding ideological opponents, but though war was seen as inevitable because Japan lacked oil, it was not seen as desirable.

>>33306735
The Japanese logistics were already stretched thin. They barely had enough manpower to hold the various Pacific islands and their occupied territory in China. Opening up a new front would just be a bigger waste of their already meager resources.

Also, Japan was never realistically going to conquer all of China. Too much ground to cover and too few troops to take it. All while having to deal with guerilla attacks from both Communist and Nationalist forces.

>>33302623
dont know much about chinese history but how did china suck so bad that japan could take it over? i know china had been shit on by the british but they should still have more resources and manpower than japan. its a massive country.

>>33306860
The problem with China was that it had been kept deliberately neutered and weak by the colonial European powers. They just didn't have the infrastructure to completely modernize themselves before the Japanese attacked.

Plus China was also in the middle of a major civil war between the Communists and Nationalists that had already been going on for at least a decade, so what military strength China did have was majorly sapped by years of combat.

They can't.

Japan had a GNP of 7.9 billion before the war. While the USA, in the midst of a crippling depression, had a GNP of 84.7 billion. Even the Soviet Union had a GNP of 20 billion.

Germamy's was 46 billion.
UK , 27 billion
france 16 billion
italy 8.6 billion

>>33306856
i didn't advocate opening a full front with the Raj, just probing attacks to cause the famine to drop and then fund the insurgencies.
>Also, Japan was never realistically going to conquer all of China.
It could have taken and held enough to supply itself and the axis with enough rare earth and other exotic materials necessary for more complex and high quality military gear which is always a plus.

>>33306824
Theoretically, if the Japanese had coordinated with the Germans to pincer the Russians during Barbarossa, they could have put pressure on the newly moved factories or tied town Siberian divisions meant to be sent to the Eastern Front. However, that's assuming the whole thing doesn't turn into Khalkin Gol 2.0, considering the Japanese had absolutely nothing that could counter the T-34.

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>>33301911
>1911
USA USA USA USA

>>33306994
The Japanese had already pretty much reached the peak of their expansion in China by the time they hit Pearl Harbor. By pushing inland, they stretched their own supply lines and lost their naval support advantage, leaving them to deal with hardened Chinese civil war veterans dug into mountain strongholds.

And what natural resources Japan did take, they couldn't exploit because China had almost no usable infrastructure, and didn't have what all of the Axis powers were always chronically short of: OIL.

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>>33301954
Absolutely beautiful

>>33307008
But it's just one problem in a microcosm of problems. Even if they COULD have pinned Siberian elements down, it wouldn't help them at all. They were already stretched to the brink logistically, in China, Russia, and the Pacific. Put simply, they could not expand any further regardless.

>>33301954
Yamamoto warned them about this.

>>33307058
Which is the whole point of making the the Raj fall, to fucking free Africa so that Italians and German can operate there to secure oil.
Also i'm pretty sure plenty of Chineses slaves could have been used to mine shit.
Frankly i'm not arguing that they could have won, but getting more ressources and knocking out close allies as well as focusing more on Airpower and ressource gathering would have gone a long way.
I still think not attacking Russia was the right move as they would have gotten crushed fast.

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>>33306329
A future worth fighting for.

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This book holds all the correct answers. He talks about things from a personal and strategic point of view.
He plays out the battles that he fought and talks about the mistakes on both sides. He talks through the whole pacific campaign, and the mistakes the the Axis and allies made.

One thing he does mention at the beginning of the book, was that no matter how the battles played out, or which strategy was used, it was pointless. Because there was no way for Japan to keep up with the US industry.

>>33307104
How are the Japanese supposed to get into India? They were already getting bogged down in Burma and trying to invade by sea puts them at risk of geting intercepted at Australia or worse, leaving the Pacific unprotected from an American counterattack.

And not every problem can be solved by slaves. How are you going to get that ore out of the mine if the country has no railroads? When you're harried externally and internally by partisans? When your ships can't even sail out of port without risk of getting sunk by a sub?

>>33307462
>The British government denied an urgent request from Leopold Amery, the Indian secretary of state, and Archibald Wavell, the Viceroy of India, to stop exports of food from Bengal in order that it might be used for famine relief. Winston Churchill, then prime minister, dismissed these requests in a fashion that Amery regarded as "Hitler-like," by asking why, if the famine was so horrible, Gandhi had not yet died of starvation.[21] Indeed, he refused to allow free relief shipments of food from the United States and Canada into Bengal on the grounds that the food was needed more elsewhere and because the Japanese Navy was patrolling the Bay of Bengal.
I didn't say there was the need to a direct infantry assault, but a clear need to apply pressure even from a distance, if they managed to fuck China sufficiently, Bombing/naval bombing operation might put enough pressure on India during the Afrika Corps to actually reduce British use of Indian troops and may cause to Famine to hit sooner which would really help the INA effort and may just allow to flank the Chinese enough to End Bruma properly when the need arise.

>>33307444
This book was transcendent. It is an absolutely amazing book.
>Truk shipyard engineer calls Cpn Hara over
>points out enormous circular hole in rudder, visible now that the ship is out of water
>Cpn Hara scratches his chin
>"Now that you mention it, steering did become somewhat difficult at one point."

>>33307328
This faggot always complains about shit like phones, his movies always center around balance in nature and ecology. And he fucking smokes? He's the Al Gore of Japan, Jesus Christ.

>>33301795
>By being our ally
>maybe not being a cunt to china or Australia
>updating their military tactics and weapons
>curbing the spread of communism to asiatic nations
>not killing prisoners samurai code style
>assimilating with the times
Mostly by not being Japanese

>>33307444
There's a great scene, also at Truk, where a friend of his lets him see censored reports of battles he had been told were decisive Imperial victories. It's one thing to censor news going to civilians but Japan's own mid-level officers had no idea what was happening.

>>33303365
Good ship design and they had the best torpedoes in the world at the time.

>>33303697
They did win on land too then ganked the port arthur fleet from the hills.

>>33307624
Guess who redesigned the Japanese torpedos? Hint: He has already been named in this thread.

>>33307495
Again, this was assuming the Japanese had the capability of completely subjugating China and finding a way past Burma, which the couldn't. Japan's own supply lines were getting stretched thin at that point and they wern't going to reach India unless they committed a massive naval presence, which also wasn't happening because the IJA and IJN were badically two separate political factions at this point.

>>33307689
Which is why my first comment on the situation was fixing the competition bullshit between the Navy and the Army.

>>33307703
Well, good luck with that. Short of a complete purge neither of them were going to cooperate.

>>33302946
>Not if enough ships and men are shoved at the problem

It was logistically impossible for Japan to take Pearl Harbor. They did not have the sealift to perform an amphibious invasion, much less supply one, over thousands of miles of open ocean. They had no practice with amphibious landings, and had no doctrine for anything heavier than cruisers to provide fire support. Against land-based forts armed with battleship caliber guns.

>>33307713
Teh Best way to do would have been stripping them of power over the Air developpement and creating an Air force branch as well as simply acting against this competition instead of in support of it, since none of these things were done i can't estimate how much it would have truly helped in the end but German Influence in all Branches and sevring Sino-German ties early would have surely helped with everything overall.

>>33307673
Never heard of a redesign on the type 93, had a look can see nothing of it so I do not know.

>>33307751
Establishment of an air branch would have been impossible in interwar Japan. The IJA and IJN both held a lot if clout not just militarily, but politically as well. If there was anything they could agree on it was that neither of them wanted a third branch to dilute their powerbases.

>>33301954
Reminder that while subs were 2% of the USN by tonnage they accounted for over 50% of Japan's fleet.
And that was after being gimped by shitty torpedoes until halfway through 1943.

>>33307797
And nobody really pushed for this solution.
But really it's a choice which would be necessary for victory and with enough Imperial power and popular support could have worked after a few internal sabotages and scandals.
But then again we are talking about what japan could have done and not just some random official. if the whole country but their heart into it clearly would easily work.

>>33307853
It is handy that the ijn were not the greatest at asw.

>>33307553
They could have been our allies, but they were an imperialist power hell bent on expansionism. The United States was necessarily a rival they had quite literally built themselves to contend against. As for updating their military tactics and weapons, they were pre-eminent in most areas in both categories. Kantai Kessen ended up being a failure, but at the outset of the war that's about the best they could have developed without firsthand experience. It was their stubborn insistence on adhering to the doctrine that showed its shortcomings, but the plan itself wasn't necessarily a bad one.

>>33303365
At the outset of the war, the Japanese navy was an equal to the American one. In fact, at the outset the Japanese navy was absolutely dominating the American one. Were the two countries on similar footing in terms of industrial output and access to oil, Japan may have stood a chance.

That said, their technological development as the war proceeded was disappointing to say the least. While they cranked out mega ships that were never before surpassed or since in some categories, ships and planes that were originally competent or superior found themselves floundering in the face of newly developed units.

>>33301849
How is choosing not to sell their oil to them pushing for a war? It's their Oil, they can do whatever the fuck they want with it.

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>>33308022
ssshhh

The US just HAS to be at fault for everything that happens to it

>>33301954
This is the thing people consistently fail to understand about America. It's about focus.

Americans hate each other on a level that the rest of the world finds indescribable. They spend trillions shitting on their neighbor's doorsteps. Their national pastime isn't baseball. It's finding ways to fuck each other over and bickering about nothing. Just look at their politics. It's hostile on a level that defies rational comprehension.

But god help anyone dumb enough to see this and think that it's an opportunity. The only thing Americans hate more than each other is an outsider interrupting their argument. It's not like they are harmless if you leave them alone. Quite the opposite in fact. It's simply a matter of focus. Without something to focus on, America gets bored and flounders. But when Americans are given something to focus their fury and pride upon, it is dealt with swiftly and brutally. It doesn't matter what needs to be done. It simply happens. They pursue things with a reckless abandon and disregard for personal safety that people not born there seldom understand. If that means retooling industrial lines across the industry to casually shit out boats, planes, and bombs, then that is what happens. If that means spending billions putting a man on the moon with a big rocket that answers the question of how with "thrust", then that is what happens.

Japan could never have won a prolonged conflict with America. If the production didn't exist, it would have been built. America has too many resources, and the people are stubborn on a level that broaches no argument.

>>33308388
...cont

I'm a BritBong that's lived and worked in the US for years. Let me put it another way:

Rob may think his neighbor Jeff is an asshole, and spend his weekends blowing smoke into Jeff's living room with family cookouts because fuck him, he's an asshole, but if anyone talks shit about Jeff Rob's going to be singularly pissed off, because while Jeff may be a flaming fucking faggot, he's an alright dude, and Rob will be damned before he's OK with any dumb cunt making fun of his neighbor.... that he hates.

It makes no fucking sense, but that's just how America does things.

>>33308388
>>33308466
So you're telling me HOA fucking me in the ass by being autistic about every detail on my private property is actually chill and will look out for me?

>>33308531
HOAs aren't run by humans, so I'm not sure the same concepts apply.

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>>33308625
>HOAs aren't run by humans
This

>>33308466
You don't understand us at all. Lemme guess: you work in New York or Shitcago. Do I get a cookie?

>>33307462
Don't you GET IT? You just do PROBING attacks, that causes FAMINES, India FALLS, Japan wins WW2, BAM.

>>33301911
This.

>>33308531
HOA is literally Nazis.

>>33308657
Midwest, but not near Chicago. Well "near" in British terms.

The only thing more common than shotguns in Wisconsin are Bibles.

>>33308698
You do realize that India suffered a major famine during 1940-43 right? Obviously India didn't fall from it.

>>33302792

You're just a buttmad Mahanian drone who's upset Corbet was right.

>>33308794
>who's upset Corbet was right.
Yeah Germany winning WW1 and 2 through commerce raiding was really an eye opener.

>>33308845

Take a look at the US submarine campaign.

They did more damage to the Japanese than the US surface fleet did.

It was commerce raiding that strangled the Japanese, not carriers and battleships.

I WANT TO FUG A BOTESLUT

>>33308893
Yeah take a look at the US submarine campaign.
And tell me Japanese navy being destroyed and the remnants being bottled up didn't make it 1000% easier.
Mahan was right and continues to be right.

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>>33302737
>a smaller country can't beat a bigger one

>entire history of german unification

>>33303101
To be fair, American tanker ships had all but perfected refueling on the highseas. It was probably the best system in the world for it at the time, which is part of why we won, because we could dick around for weeks and not have to go back to port because all our goodies come on ships and is transferred

>>33303282

Not really. Japan had to sink 4 ships for every one they lost just to be on equal footing with us. Ironically that's about the rate they lost out to us. Our tactics, encryption, and technology ensured that we didn't need to rely on that materiel advantage but even without it there's no fucking way in hell Japan was going to dominate the Pacific. Even Soviet levels of stupidity wasn't going to allow them to win. Japan was fighting a losing battle from the word go.

>>33301795
follow the bombing of pearl harbor with an invasion of pearl harbor, then pushing a warpath to the mainland and maybe they could've won

>>33309418
As had been said before, there was no way Japan could sustain an amphibious assault on Hawaii. They didn't have the fuel or logistics for it, and they'd be torn apart by the rest of the AAF.

>>33308131
What the shit is going on in this gif

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>>33311289
Pacific War if they were only allowed deactivated rifles

>>33307555
>>33307526
Got an ebook?

>>33309650
They did have the fuel and logistics for it. At the onset of WW2, Japan had a 1.5 year oil reserve to meet civilian and military needs.

>>33313259
They were already on the limits of their logistics during the attack on Pearl, what more if they attempted an invasion. They also don't have much experience on amphibious assaults, just look at their poor showing at their assault on Wake.

>>33313349
>limits of their logistics

dude, what the fuck are you talking about? after pearl harbor was when Japan conducted the MAJORITY of their invasions. the philppines, indonesia, burma campaign, southeast asia, etc; all of these were done after pearl harbor.

>>33314924
Yes, please note that all of the places that you listed are fairly close to Japan, and well within the operational range of their navy, with the exception of Burma which was a land conflict. Hawaii is literally on the other side of the Pacific and the Pearl Harbor attack force was pushing their fuel reserves to the limit just getting into carrier strike range. There's no way they could have sustained a serious amphibious assault on Pearl.

>>33315024
The distance is fairly comparable. The distance from Japan to South Indonesia is 75% of what the distance is from Japan to Hawaii.

>>33315126
I just looked it up. The distance from Japan to parts of Indonesia is equivalent to the distance of Japan to Hawaii.

>>33315126
>>33315170
Yes, and see all those hundreds of conveniently placed islands between Japan and Indonesia? Islands that the IJN can set up forward bases to stage invasions off of?

Some of their biggest naval bases, like Truk, weren't even located in the Home Islands.

Now look at the space between Hawaii and Japan. You see a whole lot of OPEN OCEAN. This is why Midway was so important to the Japanese, because it was the only potential staging point available to aim attacks at Hawaii.

>>33315253
That's nice but you don't know what you're talking about. Indonesia was invaded 1 day after Pearl Harbor because they wanted to secure the oil fields of Indonesia immediately.

This obviously happened before they had access to foreign bases in Southeast Asia.

>>33315284
You do realize that by this point Japan had the entire Chinese coastline under their control? With so many islands and the main Asian continent so close by, resupply and refuel was never a serious concern for the IJN in SEA.

But since the IJN had a critical shortage of fleet oilers, an open water expedition like the journey from Japan to Hawaii was highly impractical. Why do you think they bever struck at Pearl again even though the first tome was successful and the US Pacific fleet was supposedly in shambles?

>>33301849
>>>/pol/

>>33301867
>There was literally no way for Japan to win a protracted war again the US.
fuddlore or autistic historical determinist? you decide!
>muh "total war"

>>33303070
Like what ?

The trade embargo ?
It was just that : an embargo, not a blockade.
USA put an embargo on Cuba, NK and other countries without it leading to a war.
No, Japan could have ignore the USA easily and just went for total war in the Pacific against the other european powers.

It couldn't launch the conflict immediately, however.

(cont)

>>33315361
(cont)

Japan wanted to be a world power rather than a regional power.
For this, it was planning to control China for three big reasons :

- it was a political mess so it was thought to be easy to conquer.
Japan was seeing it as the natural next step of expansion after Korea and they did so brilliantly with Manchuria, btw.
Only problem was that Manchuria bordered the USSR and Japan felt that, soon or later, those commies would be trying to spread the revolution agressively.
In addition, Stalin was already making open move towards the KMT to convince it to adopt a more relaxed stance toward communism and socialism.
So Japan wanted to conquer China while it was still weak militarily and divided politically. Not later, when it would have been united behind a central government and allied with the USSR.

- it was one of the few territories in the region that weren't european colonies, american protectorate or russian provinces.
Attacking one of those territories would have put Japan at war with the owner and Japan KNEW that attacking UK, France or Holland was like attacking all three at once... and that was just impossible if those weren't busy elsewhere OR politically unable to act because of no internal popular support for said war.

- it was full of natural ressources yet untapped that, once properly managed, could give Japan an edge over european powers.
1935 Japan couldn't take any major european country in a war of attrition because its own industry would have choked to death quickly without international trade to supply it.
But with China's ressources, a longer war was possible and even winable, especially if said european powers were busy fighting somebody else AND the colonized people were seeing Japanese as liberators.

(cont)

>>33308388
>>33308466
wow great speech faggot

now fuck off back to rebbit fedoralord

>>33315352
Even the Japanese themselves acknowledged they couldn't beat the US by attrition. They learned this pretty well in the Sino-Russian war, where they were actually damn close to losing the whole thing if it weren't for Tsushima. If the war had gone on even a year longer Russia would have overpowered them, at least on land.

>>33315361
Not exactly. The US was fighting a covert war against Japan far before Pearl Harbor.

For example, before Pearl Harbor the US was providing weapons to China to assist in their conflict with the Japanese. In addition to that we had a group of "volunteer" military US pilots that were fighting the Japanese in China.

>>33315407
Well, considering the US and China had fairly close ties at the time, it's to be expected.

>>33315406
>all wars are wars of attrition reeeee!!!
If I wanted historical determinist bullshit I'd just read an actual history book

don't answer the question if you are this lacking in originality, idiot

>>33315419
Okay, but that's not what you said above...

It was essentially a declaration of war. We sent hundreds of air force pilots with bombers and fighters, and led by a air force general to fight the Japanese in China.

>>33315367
(cont)

If Japan had managed to conquer and hold China AND THEN invaded the british, french and dutch colonies, it might have had a chance.

It would however have also needed that Japan doesn't attack the USA.
And that could have changed the whole deal, as without this attack, Germany might also not have declared war on the USA.
And without that, the USA might have not enter the war actively, only being the "arsenal of democracies".

Now, with Japan's fleet not being gutted by the ever-expanding US Navy, Germany not being bombed to rubbles by the US Air Force, the fight against the USSR might have been won.

... this however assume WW2 starting in 1942, as Japan would have had to subdue China BEFORE attacking the european colonies and it couldn't have attack said colonies before Germany blitzed through Europe.

>>33315407
They were providing very limited help, though.
A few flying tigers and some commodities sure helped but the scale of the war was just massive compared to what the USA was giving.

>>33307553
>By being our ally

You're being silly. US has a history going with Japan back to Perry's expedition.
It wanted and needed a piece of the Asian cake.
Had they supported Japan and allowed them to take over Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, they would effectively ruin their own markets since dealing with a world superpower is a completely different matter to scamming shit-poor ex-colonies.
They'd also give up any naval projection in the Pacific.

No, strong Japan is a bad thing for Uncle Sam. Heck, just look at how much is China villainised nowadays for being the nation that is getting their shit together and possibly challenging US in the area.

>>33315448
The USA sent basically a small air wing to make the difference on a single front.
It was more a political move than anything else.

They destroyed 300 enemy aircrafts and while impressive, wasn't that many compared to the amount of forces the Japanese had.
(they produced over 26000 airplanes during the war, out of which 11000 zero fighters)

>>33303550
>>33306323
Sounds valid.

>>33307550

Uh, people have smoked for possibly hundreds of thousands of years.

>>33315485
>providing very limited help

Not really. They were a special operations group that had hundreds of pilots and they were provided with US bombers and US fighters. They did a lot of missions on behalf of China. The US government name for them was "Special Air Unit" and they also recruited other mercenary pilots to help them.

We also gave China fighters, bombers, ground weapons, and information.

That being said, I think it is wrong to view Pearl Harbor as the beginning of the Pacific War between the US and Japan.

>>33315361
>>33315367
>>33315451
This sounds doable.
Imperial Japan as always short on raw resources and sometimes manpower.
Don't forget that Imperial Army and Navy are rivaling like spoiled children as if it was competition of who is the best.

Military Gear and Logistics likewise.
A Semi-Automatic rifle is utmost top-priority.
A7M Reppu should be made in Mid-1939 or Mid-1940.
Japanese Army must focus on Medium tank, if they can fair out against Soviet/American tanks.
Japanese Army should focus also on AT-Warfare and doctrine.
IJN however should redirect their focuses on Aircraft Carriers doctrine, CVLs or CVE should suffice for Defense, Current Aircraft Carriers like Akagi and Kaga needs extensive upgrade.
Likewise for Navy ASW should also be secondary focus, ideally Mutsuki or Older Japanese DDs can go for Better ASW retrofit.
That way they can be able to handle most of the future battles.

Well, for one thing, changing the priority of the Pearl Harbor raids. I live in Hawaii, and the way it's been spun to me since I was young is that the US had amassed -decades- of work in terms of fuel storage here, almost none of which was damaged. I've been told that, had they achieved total destruction of the fuel reserves here, it would have kept the US out of a Pacific war for years. Maybe they'd have cemented control over China and expanded their navy sufficiently by then.

>>33315911
That involves changing the whole mentality of Japanese military philosophy into one that favors logistical advantages over tactical ones. Which is the crux of Japan's lose.

>>33308657
Nah it's not true for all of the US, but it's definitely true for a large chunk of it.
I live in the South.

We don't like yankee fucks because they're a bunch of prideful fucks that wanna take our guns and think we're dumb because we have a different accent.
Most of us would nuke the ever loving SHIT out of whatever country dared to touch Jew York. Because it may be a shithole of liberal gun grabbers and camsluts, but its our shithole of liberal gun grabbers and camsluts. You fuck with any part of America, I don't care what, I'd press the red button.

>>33301795
No.

>>33316825
To be fair, I guess I can understand why a resource-poor nation like Japan might not understand something not immediately intuitive like battleships being more replaceable than fuel and infrastructure. Every ship for them represented a titanic undertaking of materiel, and for the US... it represented some modest belt-tightening. I could get why they might think taking out the Pacific fleet at port might be more important, especially since they'd had some difficulties with hyper-militaristic types ascending too high and displacing actual strategic minds due to coups and shenanigans like that.

>>33303290
>Document: Lend Lease Act 11 March 1941

Oh look, you picked out the document that CONGRESS made.

Go further back bud, FDR was sending stuff to the UK long before the LL Act was made.

>>33301911
>1911
>Perry

MAY THE WINGS OF FREEDOM CARRY THE AMERICAN SPIRIT OVER THE ASHES OF THE EU

>>33302737
>End of story.
Fuck man we can't debate now
>posts "implying" pic
>implies
Fuck off, Takahashi

>>33301795
More Katanas and anime magic.

>>33316844
>think we're dumb because we have a different accent
No, we think you're dumb because your schools are shit, you try to teach mythology as fact, and you whine about liberals wanting to take your money when you're the ones taking all the hand-outs.

>>33301795
Don't go to war with the US or USSR.

Yes, it's more complicated than that; FDR was belligerent and restrained only by an isolationist public and Congress, and his embargoes made life difficult for Japan. But planning for a fight where the USN stumbles blindly into the IJN's traps and then the US essentially surrenders out of embarrassment? That's insane.

Given the need for alternate sources of oil, Japan should have considered invading the DEI without touching any American possession, and try at all costs to keep FDR from pushing them into a war. Maybe they could have even tried buying the DEI, or at least a lot of oil, from the Netherlands.

Steel would still have been an issue, but it shouldn't have been as critical without a massive naval war.

>>33318637
>Japan should have considered invading the DEI without touching any American possession
you are pretty dumb even for /k/.

>>33315433

Pointing out the US had the ability to out-produce Japan by an unbeatable margin isn't determinism, it's just stating a fact. In order to create a scenario where Japan can win, you'd have to make so many bullshit assumptions that it quickly becomes ridiculous. Unlike the US, Japan has no ability to replace lost ships quickly, so unless they consistently win every single engagement, they just can't win.

>>33303059
That's funny, the TORCH force sailed straight over without a stop.

>>33318838
Torch force was sailing into a harbor and partly expecting the "defense" to simply give in. Torch force also did not face any resistance since there was naval supremacy. But sure, since someone with completely different capabilities in completely different circumstances could achieve a landing, surely the Japanese must have been able to do the same.
Kys retard

>>33315911

It's not all that much fuel in there.

The thing is, the Americans realized the vulnerability of the open fuel tanks, and by Pearl Harbor, had already started work on fuel tanks buried in the nearby hills that would be basically impossible to hit.

At the time of WW2, the US was the world's biggest oil producer, they could have made up the loss of fuel relatively quickly through emergency rationing, the limiter would have been how long it took to get fuel storage and pumping capabilities back online.

>>33318040

>you try to teach mythology as fact

Because teaching kids that there are 100+ different genders isn't mythology.

>>33301795
>>33301867

>Hitler dies in 1938. Germany is disorganized and falls into temporary infighting, ending when Russia takes advantage of the confusion to attack Western Europe. England and Germany come to an uneasy peace.

>Rather then wander in the wilderness Mao breaks the Nationalist when they are busy fighting Japan, then Russia attacks Japan in a show of solidarity.

>US never supports Russia, and keeps selling scrap and oil to Japan as they try not to choke on the huge amount of China they've grabbed.

>Russian Cassius Belle with United States. Some powderkeg event, like deliberately attacking US flagged merchants delivering scrap/oil to Japan or selling food to Germany and being attacked for that pulls the US into the war.. On the Axis side.

So.. you could do it, but it's a goddamn Henry Turtledove novel when you do.

>>33318780
Even assuming they win every engagement, their production of aircraft was as poor as ships. The four carriers at Midway were operating understrength air groups, and even at Pearl Harbor Japan's carrier fleet was short on spare aircraft. Even in the assumption that Japan keeps winning, soon they won't have enough planes to win even if they do everything right.

>>33318838
Torch was not expecting near the resistance that would be offered against a Japanese landing in Hawaii, and unlike the Japanese in 1941 the Allies were actually capable of shipping and supplying their invasion force.

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>>33301911
>1911

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

>>33303432
I don't know about that, it really took the piss out of the Jewish menace

>>33318951

What about teaching the kids that the world is 6000 years old.

>>33303861
>russia has more land than the entire rest of the world

nice logic you fucking memer

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>currently taking an upper div epidemiology class in college
>last section was about studying thiamine deficiency and early treatments/theories of what was causing it
>Learned a good bit about the dysfunction within the Japanese military during the section

TL;DR: Basically a Japanese naval doctor/scientist figured out what was causing it (well sort of, but for the wrong reasons) and developed a nutritional treatment plan that was fairly effective after a few short human trials

Tried to tell his superiors and army counterparts about it but b/c the hostility between the jap army and navy was so strong they ignored him and let a shit load of their army die out of "muh honor"

basically the japs were still feudal retards and thus incapable of ever winning a war against western powers

>>33301795
it is too bad that japan didn't civilize the chinese

>>33303163
Look up the Sentoku class submarines, they were purposely built for doing this

>>33308022
I wouldn't say it was pushing them for war, but it rendered war inevitable. If an Empire has to choose between attacking another opponent or ceasing to exist, the choice is obvious. No empire willingly fades.

I can't believe some of you are defending my country and making fairly rational points that I've been telling random people online for a year or so now.

The basic concept is being said here. That Japan's military was pretty fucked in a sense where Army and Navy hated each other to the point where you had the Army making submarines that were not compatible with the Navy's torpedos. Or that all branches of the military had weapons that were not compatible with each other's ammunition.

Logistics was a major issue and Japanese stubbornness was also an issue. You also had certain units, soldiers, and/or commanders disobeying high command, which is the explanation as to why certain atrocities happened in China and South Asia as a whole. There's also the issue of "if it worked back then or if it worked for the enemy, then surely there shouldn't be a problem if we do it too?"

An example would be the Chinese using scorched earth tactics. From my understanding, the Japanese copied such tactic from the Chinese therefore that is the explanation as to why they used it. If someone can add on if this is a valid argument or not, it would be well appreciated. As for Banzai Charges, it was very infrequent during early stages of the war in China because of how well equipped the Japanese were and how poorly equipped the Chinese were. Banzai Charges were essentially last ditch, hence why they were so frequent in later stages of the war against the Americans. But still, it was an outdated tactic by the end of WWI. It supposedly worked well during Russo-Japanese war, which is why they continued on using it throughout WWII.

Japanese mentality is old fashioned minded and they're not really good at inventing something new, more on the lines of improving something until it becomes superior, but incapable of creating something that surpasses it to make the former obsolete. i.e. Tanegashima VS Minié rifle

It's very late at night, I should go to bed.

>>33307444
People should read this book.

>http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

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>>33301911
Goddamm right bob

>>33316959
It's not hard to see why they focused on the ships instead of the fuel. They were hoping for a repeat of the Japan/Russia naval engagements where Japan took the eastern fleet by surprise in port and beat the western fleet out at sea. The russians promptly said fuck this shit and gave up.

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>>33301795
>What could Japan have done to prepare for WW2 and win WW2?

Pull out of China back to Manchuria
Ally with the UK in their darkest hour
Infiltrate secret agents into SE Asia to foment anti-European imperialist trouble
Insist that UK, France, Dutchland, etc. guarantee freedom for their colonies post-war
Get in on the sweet Lend-Lease deals
Improve tech capabilities
Gain combat experience for Imperial Army and Navy
Post-war seat on UN Security Council
Demand Euros and Americans GTFO of Asia
Present the Japanese as saviors of Asia
Sign sweetheart trade deals with newly independent Asian nations
Achieve Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere without without (much) bloodshed

>>33315448
America didn't tell Japan to invade China.

Japs still aggressor, still deserves nukes.

>>33318040
>taking the handouts

Yeah because nogun socialist democrat states don't have a choice when the tax collectors don't have a choice.

They have to pay or they get their asses whooped by real american federal police or troops if they try to leave.

Its why all the calexit faggots are hilariously stupid.

>>33301795
By not playing

>>33324700
*when the tax collectors come around with their police squads*

>total ignorance about ASW
>"huh where did our ships go?"
baka

>>33319545
it's like a footnote in the science books, it's not like there's a week long unit where the teachers drag out the bibles and you study the book of genesis in science class holy fuck

we know that's what y'all'ld do, but we don't surrender to the fundies, we just compromise so they'll shut the fuck up

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>>33324730

>when the emperor asks you where the imperial Japanese navy went

>>33324943
submarines destroyed the merchant fleet not the navy

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>>33325341
They aren't that far.
It's just too dangerous to attack enemy ships at harbour with submarines.

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>>33325341
No, they fucked up the navy pretty bad too, though not as hard as the merchants. It's a shame I can't find a listing by class, but the JANAC data puts submarine kills as about 33% of IJN naval losses by number and 30% by tonnage. Also note how the subs sunk more naval tonnage than any cause other than naval airpower.

>>33326011
>>33325960
that is interesting. thanks for the images

>>33303550
has it been explained why the carriers were not at pearl harbor?

>>33303521
Japanese ship designers had little practical experience compared to the USA and Britain in particular. Their ships had lower reserve buoyancy, compartments that could result in capsize it flooded, and workmanship was also of less quality.
One Iowa versus one Yamato was favorable for the Iowa. They had much better fire control, and the super heavy armor piercing shells of the Iowa has had better penetration than the Yamato's 18.1 inch.

>>33303638
Also see Khalkin Gol and Nomonhan.

>>33315407
Flying Tigers fist combat was AFTER Pearl Harbor.

>>33315545
So the sinking of the USS Panay, then?

>>33306738

Not sure of the validity of this website, but they 16/day. This is the kind of shit that ensured Japan would never win; the US could pump out more equipment and crews than the Japs ever could and they could sustain it indefinitely.

http://www.taphilo.com/history/wwii/usaaf/boeing/b17/index.shtml

>>33323571
Yes

>>33302737
What is this dirt-based weaponry you speak of?

>>33327847
They were ferrying planes to bases in the Pacific. It was a pretty common secondary use for carriers, even during the war. Turns out those huge flat decks are great for holding already assembled planes.

>>33328068

>the super heavy armor piercing shells of the Iowa has had better penetration than the Yamato's 18.1 inch

The bursting charge for the 18.1 is still twice as big, and there is very little that the 18.1 would not have been able to penetrate. I know people like saying that the Iowa would have won, but it just isn't so.

>>33303021
>they are just going to snap their fingers and build a new navy like that!
Meanwhile IRL, the US snapped their fingers and built a new navy several times over just like that!

>>33328325
nah it wasn't. before pearl harbor it was called special air unit aka american volunteers group.

a new group of volunteers would arrive after pearl harbor and they would call themselves the flying tigers.

>>33330436
>>33328325
and before the special air unit, it was called the international squadron

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STEP1: Buy American Airplane.
STEP2: Buy American Beef.
STEP3: Buy American Car
STEP4: Sell Japanese Car and TV.
STEP5: Sell Japanese Animation

This is the only solution for avoid war.

>>33330833
Wagyuu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American beef

>>33328068
>They had much better fire control, and the super heavy armor piercing shells of the Iowa has had better penetration than the Yamato's 18.1 inch.
The whole fire control advantage is grossly overestimated at least in broad daylight conditions. If Iowa and Yamato were to duke it out, Yamato would win out in broad daylight

Fire Control on Yamato is about equivalent if it's clear skies. Iowa, however, has a supreme advantage in low viability conditions. Yamato also has a much greater immunity zone against the superheavy 16 in whereas Iowa barely has any against the 18.1 in.