What kind of crack is Sprey smoking?

>P-38 a shit plane.
Sprey can go lick a dick.

>>33294654
Even a broken clock can be right twice a day. The P-38 did have issues in the ETO, but at the time, it was the only fighter that had the endurance to escort bombers into Germany. And versus other 2-engine heavy fighters, the P-38 was the most maneuverable.

>>33294784
I was mostly talking about that last line. The P-51 was far from the best fighter of WWII in any capacity.

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P-38 versus anything considered a "fighter" in the ETC would have seen the loss of the aircraft and a trained pilot whether captured or other.
Recon only in Europe I'm afraid because that pos couldn't cut with the big boys.
Pic.
Over here we had bombers that could put up with that kind of s***

>>33294881
>Recon only in Europe I'm afraid because that pos couldn't cut with the big boys.

The Mosquito couldn't dogfight, and was ergo useless an escort fighter.

Shoo shoo, slimey limey

>>33294654

For some reason the P-38 was very successful in the Pacific but less so in Europe.

>>33294923
Because huge cruising range with redundant engines in case one dies are both good things in the Pacific. It also significantly outgunned anything the Japs could throw at it, and could outrun all but a few as well.

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>>33294784
Hurricanes had the endurance to get to Berlin but pilots would have to walk home.
P.38s would have a bad time against anything else with guns.

>>33294923
Easier to shitcan zeroes than it is to shitcan 109s.

>>33294654
Didn't he also say it's better to buy tens of thousands of M48s than Abrams?

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>>33294909
It was a fucking bomber.
It would eat a P.38 in a moment when not bombed up.
PR is where Lightnings were used and PR saved a lot of lives.... in theory.
Management aside they're kinda cool but best kept the heck away from people with guns.

>>33294654
The P-38 is the best fighter ever made. The F-16 is a piece of dogshit in comparison. Sprey has a hardon for multi-million dollar jet fighters that do nothing but waste taxpayer dollars.

>>33295004
You're pretty stupid.

>>33295004
>It would eat a P.38 in a moment when not bombed up.

The P-38 was faster, had better range, and better high-altitude performance. The P-38 in all likelihood (judging by top speeds) produces less drag. Ergo, all else being equal, the P-38 is the superior fighter.

I guess we call you guys bongs for a reason.

>>33295049
p 38 had huge engine problems. mostly because said makers tried to go cheap,

>>33294909

RAF bomber command mostly flew night missions, while the USAAF mostly flew by day. The mosquito made a pretty good escort in its night fighter variant.

>>33295064
>faster

>>33295064
Like the man said, the mosquito was a bomber.

Read more

>>33295078
400-something vs 300-something mph

>>33295059
>>33295064
It got fucked off rather like the B.17 because they were no fucking use in Europe.
No fucking use.
Live with it.

>>33295089
There were NF Mosquitos armed with machine guns and cannon, which are a reasonable to compare to the P-38

>>33295067
it also could not sustain a high power dive with out going into extreme tail flutter so violent it could knock out your fillings.

>>33294881
Only it went head to head with plenty of kraut fighters.

It wasnt an even match, but enough p-38s made it home. Like wild cats vs zeros. It was a close enough match tgatca good pilot could compensate.

>>33294654
>older plane is worse than newer plane

Sprey's insight isn't worth anything.

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>>33295067
RAF P.38
NB: No contra props and no turbos for the RAF.
If you didn't already know that.
You do now.
pretty and rather over stripey.

>>33295120
Citation needed.

>>33294849
There is a real argument that the P-47 was as good ... but it cost $150 000 to build and the Mustang only $100 000

>>33295166
Pic not one of ours but still too stripey to stop yanks firing at it.

Storefront FFS.

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>>33295049

Tight memery. I dig.

>>33295109
For strafing, not for dogfighting. The Mossie was one of the wars amazing aircraft but it was not a fighter.

>>33295237

This retard >>33295004 begs to differ

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>>33295237
NF is for "Night Fighter"
Pic is a daylight aircraft but NFs had onboard radar to mess your day with more efficient "whirlwind".

>>33295196
P-51 was the best escort fighter no doubt, but as far as dogfighters go the Corsair and Hellcat exist.

>>33295166
Lindybeige pls go and stay go

>>33295109
Granted but most night fighters were light bombers because you needed the space and extra crew for the radar kit.

Anon was shit talking that a mosquito could take out a p-38...Never happened so we'll never know but speed was one of the mosquito's best weapons and the p38 would've pissed all over it....but the mosquito's was a bomber!

And a successful one in Europe... The p-38...less successful in Europe as a fighter.

My dog could kill my cat but I would trust it to piss on my neighbours back door...that's the cats job.

>>33295166
USAF markings

>>33295433
Throw off Germans. Think is dumb American with shit for brains but in reality is British mastermind ace.

>>33295506
>r-rule Britannia!!
It's okay anon we'll always be there to help you out when you're shitting your pants and unable to fulfill your wartime manufacturing requirements.

Even if you're an ungrateful cunt about it.

>>33295506
Throws open canopy smoking a pipe.

"Now to bag me a jerry squadron or two before breakfast"

"Aieee! Ze Englander pig has fooled us vonce again"

>>33295351
Those had quite poor manoeuvrability.
Pilots who flew many fighters types considered P-51 the best American fighter for dogfighting.

>>33295584
Careful...We will hold you to that promise.

Thanks btw...We love you guys really...or grandma did anyway

>>33295313
Yes that is true. for unloading some 20mm up a Junker 88's ass at 1 am.... not for mixing it up with a 109 or 190. It was not designed for dogfighting. Period.

>>33295591
Not sure about the corsair but I think saying the Hellcat had poor manoeuvrability is untrue

>>33295591
>>33295942
>maneuverability

I'm 12 and what is energy fighting.

>>33296024
>I'm 12 and what is energy fighting.
Energy fighting is a big part of why some planes were more suited to the pacific and other more to Europe. The Germans as a rule used energy fighters like we did, while the Japanese used turn fighters.

>>33296077
Yeah, it's kind of hard to win in SUPOR MANUVERABRU ZERO when you can't catch the guy you're fighting.

>>33295107
You need to seriously kys, because
STRATEGIC BOMBING BITCHES

>>33294654
Guy has made a living out of being butt-hurt at U.S. systems. Right or not, it seems to be working for him.

>>33295622
I don't have any skin in this shit show, but goddamn, won't you please learn how to use your own language? Your posts read like they were written by a functionally retarded Slav peasant. Your people used to rule the world. Have some fucking self respect, man.

>>33295120
Wildcats were better than Zeros, the meme that the Zero was a good early war fighter was created to excuse abysmal US training standards in the prewar and early war period. Zero was a good interwar fighter, but lacked protection for pilot, hydraulics, or fuel, and was inferior in a dogfight unless you kept it level and spent all day standing on your rudder.

>>33297026
B-but Japan king of the pacific!
Filthy gaijins only win because numerical superiority and not because the Zero was a fucking paper kite with a go kart motor strapped to the front!

>>33297078
>American pilots fly shitty planes and prevail by gumption and superior protestant morality alone. American tanks are made of tinfoil, only the superiority of the American soldier allows them to have the lowest crew death rates of any nation.

>>33294654

Odd, cause the '38 was absurdly manuverable (for it's size), and more than once it's having two mills saved it's pilot, by being able to pull away on one mill (with considerable overboost) from persuing fighters. From the start it was what the USAAF wanted, a high performance interceptor.

And for it's time, it was absurdly good. It even aged very gracefully, taking on roles it was never intended because of it's size, twin engines and robust construction.

The '51 took advantage of a lot of much later developments, and it had the same share of issues as the '38.

So,from the gate?
It was no winner, and by the time it was really good? It's F-86 brother had taken it's place.

While I like the '51, a lot, the '38 is not and in no way should it be, in the '51's shadow..

The '38 was expensive, simply because it was a pioneer.

>>33294944
Additionally, because of the engine placement the P-38 had issues heating the cockpit. No big deal in the south Pacific, but it proved less than fun in European winters.

>>33295118
>Ralph Virden was the first to fall. Virden, a Lockheed test pilot was flying his P-38 through a dive test in November 1941 when the airplane pitched manically and became nearly uncontrollable because of what later came to be called “Mach tuck.” The twin-engine Lightning, gaining speed in the dive, was still well below the speed of sound, but the air accelerating over its wing was moving faster than the airplane itself. When Virden hit Mach .675, the airflow over the wings became supersonic. A shock wave leapt to life over the wing stubs between the fighter’s lozenge-like cockpit cab and its engine nacelles. The inboard wings suddenly stalled; the airplane slumped. The usually strong airstream that the wings guided back and down onto the fighter’s horizontal tail ceased, no longer counterbalancing the weight of the engines and forward structure. The nose rotated down—“tucked.”

>This wouldn’t have come as a surprise to Virden. P-38 designer Kelly Johnson had been one of the first to postulate the effects of compressibility, the baffling behavior of air moving at supersonic speeds. So the P-38 that Virden was flying, one of the first of the twin-boom fighters to be built, had a raised tail, which had already been fitted with special devices to give it more muscle in the inevitable struggle to regain balanced flight.

>What Johnson and Virden didn’t know, because Lockheed’s wind tunnel couldn’t simulate speeds as high as its P-38 could reach, were the exact locations and various strengths of the pressures working on the aircraft. So when Virden activated the spring-loaded servo tabs on the elevator, he thought they would help him wrench the tail back down. They worked too well: the forces of the dive recovery pulled the airplane’s tail off and Virden died in the ensuing crash.

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/mach-1-assaulting-the-barrier-22647052/

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>>33296900
Meat into the shredder.
It will always be welcomed by those that lived to tell the tales.
The doggy that cannot be named ;)

>>33297137
You do realize you're not saving a keystroke by typing '38 instead of P38 and it just makes you look like a tard, right?

>>33297909
You're missing a dash. "P-38".

>>33294654
>What kind of crack is Sprey smoking?
All of it.

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>>33297941

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>>33297844
Hey N*gger has been given a Wiki page.

About time :)

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>>33297960

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>kelly never got to make his ultimate p-38

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There were worst things to have to do your day job with.
Not many.

>>33295407
Actually, speed depends on the model. Late war Mosquito models had equal or greater speed to late war P-38 models.

>>33295894
Fighter and fighter-bomber variants of the Mosquito did exist though. Furthermore, the times they did engage single-engine fighters they did so quite successfully. In one such instance a number of Mosquito FB Mk VIs were engaged by about 30 Focke-Wulf Fw 190s, and succeeded in shooting down five Fw 190s while also sinking an armed trawler and two merchant ships. In exchange only five Mosquitos were shot down, two of which by ground/naval fire.

I'd say that's a pretty impressive performance for something that's not designed to dogfight.

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>>33298784
>Actually, speed depends on the model. Late war Mosquito models had equal or greater speed to late war P-38 models.

speed depends on altitude, and there are some alts where the p-38 is better and others where a mosquito wins

>>33298784
>In one such instance a number of Mosquito FB Mk VIs were engaged by about 30 Focke-Wulf Fw 190s, and succeeded in shooting down five Fw 190s while also sinking an armed trawler and two merchant ships. In exchange only five Mosquitos were shot down, two of which by ground/naval fire.
Sauce that cross compares losses recorded by luftwaffe and the raf
Was it 1945?

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>>33298938

and here is the 38

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>>33298976
>>33298938

As a note, the smoother performance curve comes from the P-38s turbochargers and the controllable waste gate, allowing a the pilot to control precisely how much boost the turbos provided against altitude. Hugely efficient and more effective than superchargers if not for the expense and complexity.

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>>33294654
Did Sprey actually say that?

Of course they were expensive and reserved for the missions where they were needed. Very good at intercepting bombers. Not so great at dogfighting. Neither of those planes could hold a candle to this one when you needed CAS though.

This was before the age of one plane for all jobs thinking.

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>>33295407
>Anon was shit talking that a mosquito could take out a p-38
Why not?

I mean we were allies so as you say, never happened, but I don't see any reason the bong couldn't have won. At night, it would have had the advantage even, though I'd probably bet on the P-38 in a daytime encounter.

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>>33299415
>At night, it would have had the advantage even

>>33295002
Among other things.
http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/09/07.pdf

Pick and choose what you think is the dumbest. My personal favorite is comparing the M48A5 and the M1A2, but neglecting to mention the difference in main gun. Which is critical, because the gun on the Abrams was specifically designed to penetrate T-72s, something the M48 could not do.
It doesn't even have a turret large enough to fit the thing.

Runner up is comparing the Japanese torpedo destroyers against the American AA cruisers, but only on torpedo-related matters.

I've had more intelligent conversations talking about tabletop wargames.

>>33299548
I thought M48s eventually got L7s.

>>33299548
>crew survivability is better in the M48
>the tank that has its ammunition strewn throughout the fighting compartment and only has conventional cast armor
Really discards my sabot

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>>33299722
That's probably why he brings up the M48A5 specifically, I don't think even Sprey is retarded enough to argue that the 90mm would've been adequate in the 70s-80s when the venerable L7 was already hitting the limit of what they could achieve with new ammunition. Not any of the M60s though, clearly even those are too newfangled and unnecessarily sophisticated for him.

>>33299730
Useable belly hatch, maybe?

>>33299805
Which adds a weakness to mines/IEDs?

>>33299841
Any mine was going to penetrate the belly armor anyway. You can make the argunent that the belly hatch aided crew survivability by making it easier to egress.

>>33299447
>>At night, it would have had the advantage even
Yep.

>>33296077
The jap planes could turn better because they were far lighter. They were lighter because they had no armor, no self sealing fuel tanks etc.

They sacrificed durability for maneuverability.

>>33299935
The P-38 I posted has radar.

>>33300007
Didn't a number also not have radios, specifically so they could be lighter and cost less to produce?

>>33300007
That's only Zero and Ki-43, the fighters which were in service since start of the war and both eventually had armor and self sealing fuel tank upgrade.
All the later fighters which were supposed to replace the early war kites had armor and self sealing tanks from the start.

Zero's problem was the weak engine which had to be selected since it was already in production so they could massproduce the plane.
It was actually possible to give better engine to Zero and add protection way earlier, but increased fuel consumption and smaller tanks would have dropped the range that was needed in the Pasific.

>>33294881
>P-38 versus anything considered a "fighter" in the ETC would have seen the loss of the aircraft and a trained pilot whether captured or other.
do you even know who Robin Olds is? he made all of his kills over Germany in...wait for it....a P-38

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>>33300972
Dont overload these guys with names of professionals dude.

>>33294654
Actually if we consider the highest ranked ace that flew a US airplane that would be Cobra.

>>33299320
You are a dumb person. The P-38's guns were more than capable of engaging soft targets and I'd take the dozen or so HVARs on the P-38 over the weak penetration and horrid spin characteristics on the P-39.

>>33301110
That's assuming both fronts were equal. People were dropping like flies on both sides in Eastern Europe, P-39s just happened to be less bad than LaGGs.

>>33301156
>P-39s just happened to be less bad than LaGGs.
Nah, Kozhedub flew La-5/7 and was more sucsessful than Pokryshkin.

>>33301176
I didn't say "better than any Lavochkin," I said "better than LaGGs."

>>33297026
I have to disagree with you there. Protection doesn't help you win a dogfight. It only helps you survive the ones you lose. You might have a point if you were talking about a Hellcat or P-38, where it at least has the speed and power advantage to make up for it's poor maneuverability (provided the pilot at the controls has the skill and discipline to execute boom-and-zoom tactics and not get wrapped up in a turning fight), but not the fucking Wildcat.The Zero outclassed it in every single regard.

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>>33299548
>table top wargamers

This doesn't event reach the level of WoT players.

Why is Spreyposting still allowed?

>>33301323
>Protection doesn't help you win a dogfight.
It absolutely does, especially if you're not in a 1 vs 1. If you and your buddies are doing the Thach Weave then not dying when you get hit is hyuge, and F4Fs were really good at not dying.

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>>33300066
I know it does. I said 'assuming both were night fighter models' in fact.

Given two night fighters meeting in the open at night, I'd put my money on the skeeter.

I even gave you a pic that tells you why.

Still nothing from you but a whoosh eh?

P-38 with dive flaps would have been good enough for German dogfights.

Problem was that the convoy carrying the upgrade kits to the UK was torpedoed.

Still, at least you were a distinctive shape with a P-38. Getting shot down by the bombers you're escorting because you look like a German plane sucks.

>>33299548
>http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/09/07.pdf

I come on /k/ occasionally as a britfag to ogle murrican' freedoms and actually get some info on the shit that actually wins big wars (i.e. heavy weapons, of all types) and I always wondered whether that guy you mentioned actually had a point in any of his articles - which you will INEVITABLY run across if you're looking up military shit on the web.

Thanks for posting the pdf there. I know just enough armored warfare to know that he is talking total fucking shit and seems to have come to his conclusions by a sort of armchair-inventiveness that causes people to invent shit that wouldn't even make it onto the shopping channel. This seems largely because he just makes fucking GUESTIMATES about what the actual technical capabilities of weapons systems are or the scenarios they are used in. So cheers for filling me in on this dickhead.

Still enjoying reading his shit though. It's like a lesson in how-to-avoid-convincing-yourself-you've-had-some-revelation-that-experts-in-the-field-itself-seem-to-have-missed.

Although, to be fair, defence appropriation is sometimes as retarded as the shit he comes out with. The placement of the thermal sight on the challenger II comes to mind.

>>33301452

Fucking hell, LOL.

I actually saw him making an argument in one of his articles that the 175mm was ESSENTIAL for counter-battery work because when meriburgerland abandoned the S.Vietnam the North just used a similar caliber to wipe out decent defensive positions the south held, in blocking positions, with plenty of cheap, effective, artillery. It was in one of his rants against airpower.

HE EVEN MENTIONED THAT 175mm's needed their barrels replaced so often (when they were actually in use, before the pullout) because they were constantly called on for being "so effecitve" and "necessary" for counter battery lolololololol.

This fucking faggot can't even keep his own arguments straight.

>>33302205
>This fucking faggot can't even keep his own arguments straight.
Like how he loathed the upgrades that made the YF-16 into a useful, high-tech multirole until he needed to use it to back his bullshit against the F-35?

>>33298938
>>33298976
That's actually pretty neat, thanks for sharing anon.

>>33301782
You gave is a pic that showed what was inside the aircraft. The heavier armament is only good of it gets on the ass of the P-38.