How would you have fixed Italy in WW2

>>33267425
only way to fix italy is to remove the greasy dago wops

>>33267425
you do realize that an alternate term for a person of italian descent is guinea, right? it means italians are niggers. which they are.

>>33267425
Don't get involved. Industrially, culturally, and economically, Italy was not ready to get involved with something as large as WW2. Its' officer corps was inexperienced and mainly an aristocratic function.

>Your troops are outfitted with Carcano rifles with poor accuracy and an uncommon ammunition

Carcanos aren't any more inaccurate than any other 40s-era bolt action rifles, and the "uncommon ammunition" wasn't uncommon, they had factories cranking the stuff out.

I can't defend Tankettes though. Dead end WW1 concept.

Here's a map of Italy, circa 1940-ish.

>>33267440
You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want.

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>>33267497

I don't know why the Italians just didn't update 6.5x52mm to fire a 140gr spitzer bullet.

It wasn't too bad of a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zngrvMQKFY

>>33267518
you ever work with any wops? you'll find out real quick.

you wanna get something done? call the swiss.

you wanna have a good time? call the italians.

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>>33267491
Supposedly the Finns were given a large cache of Carcanos and they would shoot one Russian and steal his Mosin. I have shot one, but obviously it was 65 years old by the time I did.

I don't think Italy had a choice to not participate. They were already totally isolated in Europe and Germany and Croatia were their only allies, both early belligerents in WW2. Was it really just a culture that Mussolini didn't turn around in time? I find it so strange that more effort wasn't put into war preparation when it seemed so inevitable in hindsight.

Italy's main problem was that it didn't strive to evolve after WW1. They just sat on their asses and said "Well, this is good enough" while everyone around them pushed R&D in tank warfare, weapons design and fighter planes.

Best bet is to buy weapons and equipment from Germany in exchange for lots of manpower, put their knowledge and training to use, and actually accomplish something in Africa. And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow the brits to enter the mediterranean

>>33267649
>And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow the brits to enter the mediterranean

Really this though, in combination with better managment of Kriegsmarine Commerce Raiders. It's questionable whether the US would have gone for Operation Torch with Italy maintaining any significant degree of naval presence in the Mediterranean.

The issue with Italy is that, regardless of training and equipment (or lack thereof), they needed their allies to be on point. There are dozens of possible scenarios that would lead to their success, but most relied on having the support of Germany. It was technically possible for the Kriegsmarine to blockade the Straight of Gibraltar, although this would draw focus away from attacking supplies bound for the UK.

The ideal plan, for me at least, would have been to choke out British forces in Malta and Egypt by forcing shipping to round Africa, putting them in predictable positions for commerce raiders, and lengthening resupply times. Italian vessels would be used to bombard Malta, and after several months possibly allow for an airborne attack. Ideally, the result would be the destruction or surrender of all British forces in the Mediterranean theater. Such a massive blow to both supply and moral would likely compensate for the increased quantities of supplies that would be allowed to reach Great Britain. Luftwaffe forces would be allowed to focus fully on attacking Britain, rather than being diverted to support action in North Africa, as British forces there were held in place and starved into submission.

In short: Germans seal up the Mediterranean, and Italians enjoy uncontested waters as they sail around, blowing up whatever needs to be blown up while the British in Malta and North Africa starve to death.

Italians a shit.

>>33267869
I have no idea why they didn't put a blockade on the straits of Gibraltar. My guess is they didn't have air support? Allowing the UK to keep making runs to Malta seems unbelievable given the proximity.

>>33268126
The Brit's occupied the Rock of Gibraltar and it's fuck ton of defenses. The Spaniards refused to let the Axis pass to attack it.

Italy had good equipment and decent manpower. They just had suck ass officers and NCOs.

>>33268143
The thing about this being that British forces at Gibraltar would only be able to control the straight, not the large portion of the Atlantic that neatly funnels into it. If the blockade stretched from around Cadiz, Spain to Rabat, Morocco, you'd easily be out of range of any British coastal artillery while still controlling the relatively narrow approach. Likewise, within the Mediterranean, there would be no need for Italian naval forces to ever even approach Gibraltar.

>>33268197
>good equipment
>all branches of the military are working with weapons designed before 1930

yeah... okay.

>>33268197
>greasy dago wops
>decent manpower

those two things are mutually exclusive, guiseppe

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>>33267425
> How would you have turned around Italy's fates in WW2?

Declare neutrality in 1939 then join the Allies 1943 and get all kinda free stuff.

Come out of the war intact and (mostly) undamaged as one of the good guys, retain your colonies (discover oil in Libya after) and get a UN Security Council seat and when it’s all over, go down in history as the savior of Italy and one of the major players in Europe.

>>33267425
I would have concentrated on maximizing railway timetable efficiency.

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>>33269601
Something about that Mussolini gif reminds me of The Rock Johnson.

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>>33269690

>>33267425
>Your troops are outfitted with Carcano rifles with poor accuracy and an uncommon ammunition (6.5x52mm).
Stop this meme.

Carcano shoots fine.

There are 2 sources of "shitty accuracy" meme. One of them being bubbas cutting down a rifle with progressive rifling. The other being ammunition supply. In the past militaries had several types of loads for their ammo. Light ball, heavy ball, stuff like this. Italians fucked up logistics so much that they've often had several different types of ammo in the same clip. The cartridge itself is actually pretty good, outside of being flat-nosed, it doesn't have the mass of typical military cartridge but it's super fast and super flat firing. So lets start from getting this logistical straightened out.

Then we have to go down into number-munching. A while before joining the war, Italy reorganised their land forces but the problem was that they could never equip those reorganised units with planned amount of heavy equipment, with huge shortages in artillery. The artillery itself was outdated but you can't have everything so... yeah.

The solution for this is to recognise the shortages and deliver much needed trucks, artillery pieces etc. to units that will see actual combat, while leaving homefront with scraps. This could be disastrous if Allies would decide to land in Italy itself but there's not much else you can do.

Airforce I don't know that much about outside of the fact that they've had some weird shit going on with building several types of airplanes that were for all intended purposes - useless(some heavy fighter that underperformed in every area) while delaying production of actually modern but basic constructions(CR200? I think that was the name).

I'd focus on upgrading fighters since they simply can't get their job done without technological parity. Bombers will be shot down anyway without air superiority.
>>33267518
Carcano wouldn't feed spitzers.

>>33269715
Navy's problems were 3 fold.
1. Lack of communication equipment and protocols
2. Lack of fuel

with solution for both of those being quite obvious(buy radios and develop protocols, stockpile fuel)

3. AA defences not being ready in ports.

Taranto happened exactly because of it. If they were on high alert, they would avoid it.

Operationally:
>plan invasion on Malta before even joining the war, if you aren't ready to do it, don't join
>leave Eastern Africa leaving local militias to do whatever they want(which is more or less what happened to Ethiopia after ~1938).
>don't overstretch supply lines in Africa
>don't attack Greece unprepared

As for the armoured warfare - don't bother that much, you can't afford it. Try to get license from Germans for some medium tank, develop decent run of the mill, conventional light tank on your own. You should however test them in desert conditions beforehand. Generally make less tanks than historically, build more AT-guns though.

>>33269735
Other equipment related things - replace the Breda 30, it was shit design, while normally I don't recommend outright replacing things like small arms(come on, it's Italy, they can't make too many of those), this one was relatively important given the lack of firepower of Italian squad and at the same time the weapon was completely fucking shit. Make something better and if you can't, but it from somebody else. It's not like in 1938 there weren't any functional LMG's produced.

>>33267425
I think by 1938 it was too late. That's not enough time to fix their resource problems, equipment issues, and training problems.

Italy could probably have laid down some carriers, but the chief of the navy was heavily opposed to aircraft carriers.

I'm not sure if they really needed them though, since they could reach a large portion of the Med Sea from mainland Italy.

>>33269758
>I'm not sure if they really needed them though, since they could reach a large portion of the Med Sea from mainland Italy.
Don't forget Sardinia and Dodecanese.

Carriers really weren't that necessary for them.

>>33269601

This is the ideal outcome (if you're Mussolini), though even just playing it like Franco did in Spain would have worked out better.

Mussolini really did screw up so badly.

>>33269764
They should have gone for naval air superiority over the med.

Dont join the war
Italian industry was small af and was stuck with hand production
A few example
>mc202
Only 2000 made
>ansaldo 90/53
Only 500 made
>the Armaguerra mod.39 was cancelled and stuck with carcano
>mc205
Only 262 made
>the Littorio could't run at full power because of the lack of fuel
>engine that had to run on lower boost because of the lack of steel

A carcano variant killed JFK. It isn't that bad.

>>33269893
What if I liked JFK tho?

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>>33269744
Was there ever a Madsen LMG in 6.5 Carcano?

Something like that would've been a good general purpose machine gun for the Italians.

Put that into service alongside a bunch of cheap 9mm subguns and you'd have a decent small-arms setup.

>>33267580
>I don't think Italy had a choice to not participate.

Who was going to invade and tie up troops if they didn't? Go defensive and invest in ground troops, artillery, AAA etc. Offense is expensive but Italian terrain in the north favors defense.

Franco survived in Spain by not being stupid. Mussolini died by being stupid.

>>33267497
They shouldn't. Have gone to war.

>>33267425

Remove all political generals and officers. Rev up officer, and NCO training. Consolidate all the useless divisions with quarter equipment into just about 20 fully equipped division.

Make 5 of those divisions into 1 mechanized, 1 armor and 3 motorized divisions and send them to Africa. Make 5 of those 20 divisions into Mountain divisions and send them to Greece.

Use up the Regia Aeronautica in a Barbarossa type air raid on Greece to destroy all their planes and then leave behind just light and nimble bombers useful for Mountain Bombing and leave 1 single squadron of fighters just in case and then send all the good planes and pilots to prepare for a similar blitz raid on Malta. Also train up a para division or regiment.

Pull back the navy away from the south mediterean until it's all sea worthy. Do a sudden strike to take out Malta in conjunction with the Regia Aeronautica then use the Navy to support a push in Africa.

Stay neutral, the only reason italy went to war was because mussolini thought the germans where going to win in 1940 and said "I want a piece of that".

>>33267580
>I don't think Italy had a choice to not participate. They were already totally isolated in Europe and Germany and Croatia were their only allies,

Hitler did everything he needed to do to get into bed with Mussolini. He needed Musso for the credibility he brought to the table.

Remember, in the 30s the international press was madly in love with Musso and Stalin because they were both getting things done and supposedly making a better future for their people. Fascism and Communism were considered to be interchangeable. This was before people got a look behind the facades and saw how it was really running.

Hitler was a latecomer to the game and needed some instant cred. He did some 'diplomacy' with Musso, got his cred. If you read some magazines from about 1936-38, you'll see what I mean.

Fun fact: in 1938 Germany passed mandatory recycling laws that are virtually indistinguishable from those same laws found in parts of California today. But I digress.

So, Hitler married Musso and they both attacked Joe. Joe thought he had an arrangement with Musso and got very angry. He said fuck all fascists, they are two-timing whores. He then proceeded to do so, con mucho gusto.

>>33269601
>YFW bio-pic of Benny wins academy award for best picture in 2011

>>33268313
they had a navy good enough to have fought the british out of the med. ran so incompetently that it sits out the war from 41. germans end up attacking in later war to prevent them from defecting.

they had some airplanes that were better than the germans'.

their tanks were outdated.

their small arms were ok.

>>33269715
>Carcano wouldn't feed spitzers.

Why couldn't?

>>33271235
it can feed them just fine.

it's the rifling that doesn't like spitzers.

you need a lot of surface area for the progressive rifling to engage.

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>>33269735
>Lack of fuel
Supposedly this was why they wanted to enter the Balkans, to secure oil production. They basically got their shit pushed in by Greece until Germany bailed them out, though. I agree with you though, I think securing Malta should have been their main priority.

>>33269758
This is a very interesting point. They were strangely anti-aircraft carrier, but they didn't fully exploit their situation without them. They could have supported a blockade east of Gibraltar if they could set up runways in Morocco and Libya with some longer range, faster fighters. This is how the US operated in the Japanese theater with fast Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. P38s could do 12 hour round trips from Guinea and strike all along SE asia.

>>33269601
In hindsight, this makes a ton of sense but how could Mussolini have justified it after 10 years of taking tough? Could he have pacified his blackshirts during the war if he stayed neutral? Interesting thought.

>>33269854
For what reason the Italians didn't just buy the shit out of K38s and MG42s from Germany and focus their hand production on vehicles, tanks, and aircraft I will never know.

>>33270175
The Breda 30 and it was a hunk of garbage.

>>33270658
I actually often forget that the press was super favorable for Mussolini during this time. Wonder if that would have helped or hurt him if he tried to stay neutral?

>>33267491
>they had factories cranking the stuff out.
I personally believe that the "Carcano is inaccurate meme" came from two things:
1.) Fudds fucking up thebprogressive rifling by cutting down the barrel
2.) Lack of standardization loadings in surplus ammunition

The one goddamn job they had was to take Malta, they failed. I would have done whatever was necessary to get Malta taken, so as to break the allies ability to interdict convoys to the Afrika Korps and send convoys from Gibraltar to Egypt.

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>>33269601
>Come out of the war intact and (mostly) undamaged as one of the good guys, retain your colonies (discover oil in Libya after) and get a UN Security Council seat and when it’s all over, go down in history as the savior of Italy and one of the major players in Europe.
God fucking damn is that a good deal for Italy. Add on to that more stable domestic politics, no communists running around, the Mafia never regains power in the south, plus maybe some territorial gains from Austria in the Alps.

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>>33272059
>In hindsight, this makes a ton of sense but how could Mussolini have justified it after 10 years of taking tough? Could he have pacified his blackshirts during the war if he stayed neutral? Interesting thought.

Sure, Italians for the most part had no interest in going to war, they had to be convinced to do and in this alt-timeline, Mussolini plays it off as protecting Italy from a disastrous war (which is true) then jumps into the fight on the Allied side when Germany is on the ropes, (to protect Italy from a madman) in exchange for all kinda Lend-Lease goodies from the Allies and a post-war guarantee of Italy’s existing empire (which was more then Italy could control anyway).

And when oil is discovered in Libya, Italy will be rolling in money and with a powerful military integrated with the Allies, Italy will be one of the premier nations on the planet.

>Approximately one quarter of the ships of Italy's merchant fleet were in foreign ports at the outbreak of hostilities, and, given no forewarning, were immediately impounded.

BRAVO

At the start of the attacks on Malta in June 1940, the British had:
>3 Glouster Gladiators
>5 Fairey Swordfish
>one monitor (HMS Terror) and two gunboats to defend Malta; the Med Fleet had withdrawn to Alexandria.
>19 heavy coastal guns (varying in size from 12-inch to 16-inch), 130 smaller coastal guns (4.5-inch to 9.2-inch), 112 heavy and 144 light anti-aircraft guns.
>42 anti-aircraft guns
>garrison of less than four thousand soldiers >five weeks of food supplies

If Mussolini had just gotten a Fallschirmjaeger division or two from Hitler and thrown all his paratroopers, plus German support, at the island at the very start of the conflict he probably could have taken it

>>33272204
That was the thing. The Italians didn't ever have a good tank. Nice uniforms.

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>>33272334
And this is absurd because Italy was somewhat a corporate-run state at the time. Large shipping companies should have known about this, or at least been given notice to remove their vessels from hostile ports. They honestly didn't think any of this through.

>>33272204
Is Italy allergic to turrets or something?

>>33267649
>And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow the brits to enter the mediterranean

sure but a large part of the reasoning behind the north african campaign was that the british controlled the suez canal.

now a attempt to close the straits of gibraltar is almost certainly going to fail, and there is no plausible way for the axis naval forces to mount a distant blockade that would hold. but even if that somehow works the british still have access via suez, and if you somehow manage to capture suez then sure you can keep the british out of the med, but whats the point because if you have suez you have to have taken out the rest of the british interests in the mediteraean basin anyway to get to suez

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>>33272059
>The Breda 30 and it was a hunk of garbage.
Yeah, that's why I'm thinking that buying or licensed manufacturing a bunch of Madsen LMGs in 6.5 Carcano would've been a good alternative for them.

It's a pretty versatile gun, has reasonable capacity magazines (up to 40 rounds in some calibers), is light enough to be carried around by one man, and is quite reliable.

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>>33272563

Why would you put a turret on a "tank" smaller than a soccer mom SUV?

>>33275800
Were those tankettes particularly effective in any way?

I can imagine having them act as mobile machinegun nests would be pretty useful, and it seems like artillery would have a hard time hitting them if they were advancing aggressively, but I can't imagine them lasting long against foot soldiers with grenades and bazookas.

>>33276031

Not really. Light armor and weak armament. They were mostly retired from front line us by 1940.

>>33267425
Wouldn't change a thing

Italy was yhe only belligerent in WW2 that was on the winning side at both the begining and end of the war.

Now they conned Germany into paying for evrything through the EU so the Italians can fuck and sleep on the beach all day and never pay their taxes or work. They also tell all the refugees to fuck off and ship them to Germany. Why would I change that? They have the good life.

Stay neutral, sacrifice some political face now, which Mussolini had a lot of. Hitler isn't going to try to drag the Italians out of the alps.

>>33277248
>Hitler actually does try to drag the Italians out of the Alps while simultaneously bombing Britain
>It doesnt work, and in 1943 the war is still ongoing. Stalin says "Da, is time now for conquer Europe in marxist revolution comrades" and invades Germany
>Germans are crushed, Italians annex the Austrian Alps, and get a bit of Germany partitioned to them along with the French and Russians.
>Now they stare down the fucking Commies from the Alps, but they're all rooted out of Italy proper
This is a good plan. Italy wins by betrayal again!

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>>33277027
>Ally with Italians
>Early wins, Italians take partial credit
>War starts going south, Italians change sides
>World War I ends
>O-ok, but this time it's going to be different.

Remind me never to ally with Italy

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>>33267425
I would make my brigades smaller so I could have more them! More brigades means a larger army!

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>>33272204
Who wins in a tank battle Italians or Nips

>>33267467
>it means italians are niggers. which they are.
The south-italians, yes.

>>33272401
The P26/40 wasn't bad.

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>>33267425

To be fair, the Falco wasn't that bad. The Hungarians wrecked 12 Soviet aircraft with it for every CR-42 lost. But yes, it was a dead end.

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>>33267425

By not having pic related deplete entire Italian supply of bravery for at least century or two in Isonzo river valley in WWI.

If you gave the Italians the Grand and the Americans the Carcano there would have been no difference in the outcome of the war.

Italy, and the Axis for that matter, had no chance unless they were willing to accept modest gains and make peace.

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>>33279822

didnt stop them from trying to make the greatest biplane of all time

>>33267440
FPBP

The problem with Italy is that it's full of Italians.

>>33280013

>you will never fly that thing

This torment is too much for me to endure.

>>33279850

Christ, he looks like he has a genetic defect

>>33270175
Subguns they've had covered. Berettas weren't as cheap as they could be, but they were very good performance wise and SMG's were really the smallest issues they've had.

>>33272366
>If Mussolini had just gotten a Fallschirmjaeger division or two from Hitler and thrown all his paratroopers, plus German support, at the island at the very start of the conflict he probably could have taken it
He didn't even need them.

Italy had a battalion size unit capable of amphibious landing back then. It doesn't sound like much, but for Malta it was more than enough.

The entire thing about Italy in WW2 boils down to the mindset they've had when they've entered it, one that allowed this >>33272334 to happen.

When they've joined, they've seen France failing and hoped that Britain would soon follow suite, so they were in for the land grabs. It had to be done really fast though, so the preparations were minimal and no strategic goals for the military were set. They were supposed to sort of attack French in on the north-west part of home front and sort of attack British in Egypt.

No attention was paid to prepare invasion for Mediterranean isles which were strategically important(Corsica, Malta and maybe Cyprus), gathering oil reserves etc. On a day to day basis it was decided that Italy should go to war.

>>33276031
If you're not facing significant enemy tanks or antitank guns, they work just fine. Bazookas and antitank grenades won't work if you keep your distance. It's still a machinegun nest that is invulnerable to small arms. That in and of itself is attractive.

The problem is that when they do encounter significant antitank resistance, they're boned.

>>33281393
>Italy had a battalion size unit capable of amphibious landing back then. It doesn't sound like much, but for Malta it was more than enough.
With the amount of coastal batteries that were in place? I'd expect at least 50% casualties on the landing elements, even with sufficient preparatory bombardments. You need more men to guarantee you take the damn thing.

>>33279850
People are little unfair when it comes to Isonzo.

Cadorna did many other things wrong, Isonzo wasn't one of them.

If you'd study geography of Italian-AH border from before WW1, you'd quickly notice that Isonzo river valley is literally the only piece of it where you can hope for any offensive success, that will take you out of mountain country.

There were avenues of attack in Tirol etc. but they would lead to Alps. And then some more Alps. And then...

The Isonzo approach at least gave a promise of getting to the wide open spaces where war wasn't a horror at some point.
>>33281427
With the amount of airplanes and naval artillery Italians could possibly get there, it wouldn't be that much of a problem, especially if "Malta attack" would be the first act of war(which is as it should be).

The Italian military industry had a recurring theme of being a day late and a dollar short. Most Italian weapons and equipment weren't bad, but typically Italian equipment was hopelessly outdated.

You have to remember that when Mussolini gained control of Italy, the entire Southern half of the country was practically living in pre-industrialized times. Even after an extensive and aggressive modernization campaign, Southern Italy still significantly lagged behind the North in terms of industrial output. These modernization efforts also took up a great deal of the states bureaucratic attention. During the interwar period when other countries were tooling up for the looming second war, Italy was spending it's time and resources on bringing half their country out of the late 1800s.

So by the time the war was imminent, Italy was already behind the curb in terms of production capabilities. This lack of an industrial base is the number one factor that caused Italy to perform so poorly. An excellent example of this in action would be the basic Carcano rifle. The Italian knew their 6.5 Carcanos were outdated, and they began to produce Carcanos in a 7.35x51 caliber that used spitzer bullets. While the new rifle performed much better than the old one, the Italians realized they could not produce them and their ammunition fast enough to get them issued in decent numbers in time for the war. So they cancelled the rifle and to simplify logistics converted all the new rifles back into the old caliber. It's the same story everywhere you look. They knew the Breda machine gun was shit, but they simply couldn't replace it. They knew tankettes were shit, but they couldn't replace them.

>>33281557
>With the amount of airplanes and naval artillery Italians could possibly get there, it wouldn't be that much of a problem, especially if "Malta attack" would be the first act of war(which is as it should be).
I think you are vastly underestimating the danger and survivability of these guns. They aren't a joke. A battalion is not going to cut it. You would need a full brigade at minimum. Even that is lowballing it.

>>33269601
>getting a security seat t the UN with a fascist government

not happening

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>>33279386

>>33281670
actually from england it iran is considered white. The difference being ethnicity not race.

>>33281630
The lack of industrial base even effected major strategic decisions. It was no secret among Italian commanders that their material losses could not easily or quickly be replaced. This made commanders overly conservative about how they deployed their assets. The Italian navy and air force were actually fairly impressive at the onset of the war. However, commanders were very unwilling to utilize all their assets because they knew that every ship, tank, or aircraft lost would probably take a ridiculous amount of time to replace. So to negate their risk of high value losses, commanders would throw the absolute minimum amount of assets into operations that they thought they could get away with. Nobody wanted to be responsible for the loss of critical assets, so a lot of the time assets that could have saved an operation were held back. Obviously this had a negative effect on both performance and moral.

Once the war was in full swing, Italy was fucked. By the time Italy had developed equipment that could really go toe to toe with the most modern Allied equivalent, they could no longer produce them in appreciable quantities (ie. the MC205, the P40, etc.). Not only could they not produce new and improved equipment in reasonable numbers, but they couldn't even effectively replace their losses. Once Allied forced began to target what little industrial capabilities the Italians had left, it was gg no re.

>>33281670
No one in Northern Italy thinks that. At least not the people of Brescia.

>>33267649
Probably something like this,send soldiers to train in germany unde their directives and do join exercises to get ready,if possible borrow some german technicians to make factories produce some common war material I think maybe too lateto upgrade millions of rifles and other small arms but not too late for motors and planes and armored vehicles.
Basically they should have asked for german technical help sooner so as not to need german physical help later.

The germans in exchange would gain a more valuable ally and the experience in how to transform an economy to be to their standards,like they did in conquered countries later,plus maybe lots of manpower money and qts?

>>33272095
Can confirm. Bought a carcano and the barrel was FUCKED from the bubba that owned it prior.

>>33267425

I think when it comes to their air force they should have focused on trying to build German designs under license.

When it comes to their navy it didn't matter anyway because naval might (surface vessels) weren't going to be able to make much difference anyway. Focus naval construction on building U-boats. Again, try to build German designs under license.

Their army I have no solution for. I mean even their biggest baddest ally entered the war carrying a bolt action rifle. I mean, maybe they could have gone with the K98 Mauser too but that still wouldn't have meant you didn't have an Italian carrying it.

Basically you would need more than a year to fix any significant part of this mess.

>>33272059
>In hindsight, this makes a ton of sense but how could Mussolini have justified it after 10 years of taking tough? Could he have pacified his blackshirts during the war if he stayed neutral? Interesting thought.

Volunteers for the great crusade against communism.(see franco)also I'm pretty sure with both sides stripped for things he could have gotten some colonies and shit for free no problem.


I always feel sad of how the japanese lost the opportunity of ww1 to have their way with China, they did try but had they pushed harder during ww1 being in the allied camp and being needed,they could have gotten much a bigger chunk of China than the German meme colonies therby having a much better starting point for ww2 (developed manchuria)or even not needing chinese clay and being able to focus on other shit.
Instead they fell for the siberia dream and where left alone there they should have settled for a smaller chunk of land in exchange for recognition and fuel and the soviets would have complied certainly...

>>33267511

Always wondered why Italy wanted to conquer essentially worthless parts of the world. Ethiopia? Seriously? Why?

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>>33269715
Would feed them fine but not the best bullet for them. So what? Still shot better than the competition, flatter and more accurate (as long as you had good ammo.)

Stop the meme, Carcanos are great. (Coming from a guy that mostly shoots a MosiN btw.)

>>33276031
Tankettes were a futurist dream. Back in 1920's there were some futurists and forward-thinking military visionaries who thought that the mechanised war of the future will involve use of division-size units where each individual soldier is equipped with some sort of armoured vehicle, and for most of them it would be a tankette-like thing. In fact early tankettes were one-man vehicles.

Militaries were interested in the design basically only because they were cheap, light and simple. A peacetime substitute for proper light tank.

>>33267425
Surrender at the beginning, have sex, eat pizza

>>33282027
Ethopia was the only part of Africa that had not been claimed by another european power.

they had to use poison gas to defeat the Ethiopian military.

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>>33281879
So how would I fix it?

>Join the war as late as possible. I'd want an extra six months at least. Use this extra time to tool up.
>Upgrade to the new Carcano, ditch the 6.5 cartridge.
>Ditch the Breda 30, turn them into scrap and use it to make something that is actually useful. Buy LMGs and/or LMG plans from anyone who will sell them.
>Write off Southern Italy as a lost cause until after the war. Build them railroads and powerlines during the interwar period but focus mainly on the war effort.
>Leave Eastern Europe alone for now. My overall strategy would be to dominate the Mediterranean and act as a defensive buffer and leave the heavy offensive lifting for Germany who is better equipped for it
>Start by beating the fuck out of Malta. Malta has to be taken first, no matter the cost.
>After Malta is secured, start attacking Allied interests in North Africa while simultaneously launching a naval blitz to take the strait of gibraltar. The British navy is tough as nails but the Italian Navy was nothing to sneeze at either, and between us, the Germans, and God willing the Spaniards (assuming they ever get off their fucking siesta and help holy shit) we could do it.
>With the Mediterranean secured (for the most part) and operations ongoing in Africa, move troops into France to bolster the German lines, which will allow them to divert more men and resources to the Eastern Front
>Call Emperor Hirohito and tell him his waifu a shit
>Fortify the shit out of the Mediterranean, specifically Gibraltar and Sicily. If the Germans can do it in France we can do it on our own fucking turf.
>Keep sending letters to the Queen of England calling her an inbred slut and proclaiming that the House of Savoy is superior to the House of faggot ass Windsor.
>Savagely beat anyone who makes a train run late anywhere in Italy because the trains must run on time
>Wait until the Allies get sick of not making gains and end the war

>>33282113
>ditch the 6.5 cartridge
Explain the point of it, outside of fudd lore. 6.5 carcano had problems with different loads being mixed together and some quality control issues, but by all means it was very good, super-flat-shooting cartridge.

>>33282093
Ethiopia was also one of the only African countries that was not a complete shithole and actually had a relatively competent local government and army. I believe they were also given arms by European powers in an attempt to slow down their rival countries colonial gains.

Gas attacks ended that African "civilization" meme pretty quickly.

>>33267425
>How would you have fixed Italy in WW2
The best way would have been to rob France of it's modern ships and aircraft. The biggest mistake that Germany made was to let Vichy France keep everything.

>>33282124
Because despite it being a nice base cartridge, it had a shitty bullet.

Replacing ammo wouldn't be a massive priority though. I'd honestly be more worried about getting factories better equipped and replacing the Breda. Small arms typically don't make or break wars anyway, but the Breda was just so terrible and machine guns form the backbone of any fighting force.

>>33267425
One year isn't enough.

That said, the entire Aeronautica needs to be reworked. The procurement lines for it need to be industrialized instead of the pseudo-artisanal shit they actually were.

Then some form of tank that isn't trash is needed, but if Italy is only fighting in the Balkans and Africa then it's not absolutely essential. What's the most important is making the infantry divisions A) not shit and B) actually at divisional strength.

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>>33281557
I agree, I think it would have been hard fighting but the Regia Marina and Regia Aeronautica could have severely weakened the British defenses at Malta such that a landing/invasion/airborne assault could have been successful in capturing the island. Also given the isolation of Malta, if Italians could have prevented supply lines from reaching it, their ammunition and food would be strictly capped and the battle could not continue indefinitely, thus you don't have to take huge risks after you hold position.

>>33282019
>I always feel sad of how the japanese lost the opportunity of ww1 to have their way with China

I find asian cultures to be incomprehensible and insectoid in nature. The Chinese in particular seem barely human with how they react to industrial accidents and the like.

But what the fuck man how could you be sad the Japanese didn't get to have their way with anyone? They were such barbarians they disgusted the observers the Nazis sent to coordinate with them.

>>33281669
>>getting a security seat t the UN with a fascist government
>not happening

For an Italy that stayed neutral at first and then jump in on the Allied side? Of course it'll happen.

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>>33267425
Do not get involved in the war, too much risk without much reward.

Remaining neutral results in Italy having an intact empire, leave the merchant marine intact and give Italy one of the few non-bombed economies in Europe. Not a bad outcome at all.

A neutral Italy could demand and receive huge compensation from the Allies for joining and providing European ports when they realize the problems involved with invading Europe. Britain and the US would be willing to give all sorts of material, technological and territorial grants to avoid having to launch an opposed amphibious landing in Europe.

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>>33267649
>Italy's main problem was that it didn't strive to evolve after WW1.

That's not true at all, in fact Italy's inter-war technology was top-of-the-line.

Problem was, Mussolini jumped the gun and shot his wad _before_ WWII went hot, so all that cool pre-WWII tech was now or would quickly be obsolete and Italy didn't have the industrial base to produce new designs while keep existing production going, forcing them to continue building obsolete equipment.

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>>33281925
>if possible borrow some german technicians to make factories produce some common war material I think maybe too lateto upgrade millions of rifles and other small arms but not too late for motors and planes and armored vehicles.

Problem was, the Germans were complete Jews when it came to tech transfers.

For example, Hungary was also their ally and fighting by their side, but the Germans wanted to charge them an arm & a leg for license production of the Panther tank, forcing the Hungarians to come up with their own design.

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>>33282027
>Ethiopia? Seriously? Why?

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>>33282140
>The biggest mistake that Germany made was to let Vichy France keep everything.

If the Germans tried to seize the Vichy French fleet for themselves, (they sure wouldn't do it for Italians) the French would scuttle them, so the best course of action was to leave them in port so the Allies wouldn't get them.

>>33267649
>Italy's main problem was that it didn't strive to evolve after WW1
What a retarded post.

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>>33282113

>Keep sending letters to the Queen of England calling her an inbred slut and proclaiming that the House of Savoy is superior to the House of faggot ass Windsor.

I wouldn't start a witty insult war with the British, it's a war you can't win. Also,

>queen
>1920-40's.

>>33283602
Italy's attempt was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPWXe_B5pPo

>>33283664

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBG34TSJJ4

>>33267425
to late to change in 1938
the Italians did not think a strategic game.
Large holdings that could easily be cut of by their most likely rivals
they should have focused on dominating the mediteranian sea with land based aircraft and a navy that needn't be vast but good. Backed up by a large army of conscripts to hold down the godlike defencive home country and a smaller expeditionary force made up of their best.
First isolate the enemy islands and other small holdings in the med, starve'm, smashe'm and take them. Then turn your sights on the vital points, the ways into your sea. If you take those no navy can long operate there.
So in 1940 they should have taken Gibraltar with or without Spains aid. In 1941 move on the Sues, if need be block it of in a raid. Then you have your sea all to your self and the motherland is safe. Now you can turn your eyes back to north africa. And the scatered concentrations stuck on the vast coast waiting to be taken in detail

>>33267425
have the GERMANS GO TO THE ITALIAN FACTORIES and literally modernize them and teach them how to build planes faster. Give the Italians license to produce German tank guns along with German machineguns(mg34, 42).... force the Italians to replace their shit 6.5 carcano with the German 7.92. All Italian armies would be under command of German officers who would know how to use them correctly along with German armies

the Italians did really well under the Germans in North Africa until the allies overwhelmed them with numbers!!!

>>33272324
>And when oil is discovered in Libya, Italy will be rolling in money and with a powerful military integrated with the Allies, Italy will be one of the premier nations on the planet.

Why can't this be our timeline

>>33275800

that german is like "we are fucked"

>>33273842
nah man this shit was really old and expensive plus hard to produce!!!! they italians should have just license produced the Czech mg26, the same way the brits did and got the Bren gun

Italy had the shit 6.5 carcano

>>33278894
the folgore was an awesome plane.... but I read the oxygen systems were shit and the plane only had 2 7.7 machineguns and 2 12.7 in the wings
this thing was underpowered!!!!

>>33284515

That was the problem with many Italian planes. Decent airframe, but shit engine.

>>33282113
how are you gonna win when 50 million Russians are pushing the Germans back!!!! Italy was fucked even if they by miracle captured malta at the start and used air power to fuck the british in north africa since they had no armored vehicles!!!

>>33284550
once they got the license to make german db601 and 605 their planes became really good but by that time it was 41 and 42 and time ran out

>>33284515
Sad!

>>33269715
>Carcano shoots fine.

Now, now Oswald. Calm down.

>>33267425
>6.5

I think you mean 7.35 anon.

>>33270098
Then you shed a single tear of determination like America did at the time.

>>33267440
>>33280241
Well, you're not wrong

>>33282136
>they were also given arms

Nope. The League of Nations specifically prevented Ethiopia from buying or receiving guns from foreign powers (a big one was america I think, we mightve seen the tommy gun shooting shit up in those days. also the british were huge fucking sticklers about enforcing it). They did the same to the Italians too which may explain why they were so dead set on domestic war industry and defeats the argument for buying german guns many anons in this thread have made. Regardless of how effective their equipment was or even the gas attacks, the Italians would defeat Ethiopia. Africa simply had no manufacturing base.

The best ways would be to make the most of what you have in the most practical way possible.

Air Force - becoming logistically oriented. Instead of fighters, the best thing the Italians could have done would be to broker a supply deal with the Luftwaffe. Italy would fly cargo, anti-ship, recon and antisubmarine aircraft. This would free up Luftwaffe pilots for tactical roles while the Italian Air Force would focus on logistics, effectively becoming force multipliers.

Navy - more defensive than offensive. Upgrade with German radar and sonar, serve as an antisubmarine and anti-aircraft fleet in addition to supply ships, hospital ships, landing craft, etc. Secure the Mediterranean at the onset of the North Africa campaign but also support the Germans by encircling Dunkirk (assuming they'd be let in on the invasion of France) and securing the English Channel via the antisubmarine and anti-aircraft fleet.

Army - switch all production to build German designed weapons, helmets and uniforms with improvements as practical. Common equipment is key. Focus on building the Italian Army as a security force (handling occupation duties), which would free up German units to fight on the front; secondly as a logistical network, keeping Afrika Corps supplied as well as pushing supplies to both the Eastern and Western fronts.

Let's face the fact that Italy was never prepared for war to begin with and use the Italian military as a logistical asset instead, it's the only way they would have been an effective force.

>How would you have fixed Italy in WW2?

*walks away*

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>>33286702
This is a great post. I hadn't really considered this option. Mussolini supposedly told his advisors he hoped the Allies slowed down the Nazis in 1939 because he was worried the war would be over too soon for them to capitalize. Had he more foresight he should have gone this route.

>>33286702
>Air Force, no fighters is somehow good
Now you are left with a useless air arm.
Without fighters the Navy has no air cover, you cant escort anti-shipping attacks in against target with air cover (such as a British CV) and you cant protect your troop in North Africa.

>Navy, do the impossible
To understand your timeline here
1: Secure the Mediterranean.
2: Encircle Dunkirk.
3: Secure the Channel.

The Regia Marina failed to secure the Mediterranean after the fall of France removed the majority of Allied warships from play. You are proposing that Italy could defeat the French Fleet in battle, force the Straights of Gibraltar, defeat Force H in battle and then proceed to oppose the Dunkirk evacuation. There is zero chance of that working and would just result in a defeated Italian Navy in 1940.

At best the Regia Marina could oppose the RN in the Med, like it did RL.

>Army, literally why
Switching production to Germany weapons would stop the factories for months for little gain.
That is assuming Germany even agrees which as >>33283157 noted the Germans often didn't.

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>>33279356

>>33277027

Daily reminder that Italians work more hours than Germans and get a fiscal pressure of 64%. Even on small things: Italians retail stores or bars work all days, and there is no Sunday rest. The concept of "weekend" rest has been rather weakened by the economical crisis.

You'd never read a thing about Italy, nay? As a man who has lived in both countries I can say that incredibly enough the common German isn't as productive as you common Italian: it's merely that the German society is so, so much better at a basic level. Italians work hard but their organization and leadership is shit, and corruption is incredibly common, meaning hard work, little rest and high taxes are wasted.

Gosh, that could work also for describing the Italian Army in WW2. Something never changes.

>>33284414

Funnily enough, tons of Italians went to German factories. It's called work transfers, and the manpower starved German industry needed it to keep working. Not only slav prisoners, concentration camp inmates or workers from occupied countries joined, but also men from "allied" countries lured by higher wages. Sadly, the experience was terrible: Germans got mostly Southern Italians who weren't used to the climate or to the peculiar German (lack of) culture, so the results was unproductive workers and a generalized hatred between Germans and Italians. From the data I got, germans rated the Italian exchange workers as less productive that Russian prisoners, and they were "allies".

On the other hand, mixing officers is also a terrible idea. Bar muh Rommel memes most Italian military leadership (and even the common man) hated the German and military collaboration was shaky at best: we can thank for that the fact that italians were needlessly prideful and that the Germans were (and still are) incredibly shit at working with other nationalities in a productive way. You have to be a German to work with a German, as they say.