Old Handgun Advice

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>>33256868
a mak

>>33256868
None are good for CC, so don't bother.
The cheapest is the tokerev, and I can vouch for its amazing trigger and pure sex cartridge.

It's like what a 1911 could have been but wasn't.

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>>33256938
I've considered Makarovs, but the round just seems like a weakling cousin to the 9x19 Parabellum. Why bother? If I want something Russian, cheap, and low-power, I'll get the Nagant revolver. Something more punchy... The Tokarev.
>>33256947
>It's like what a 1911 could have been but wasn't.
From what I understand, it's like a 9mm, but with less recoil and incredible penetration (for its size). Elaborate?
What would you consider good for CC?

>>33257002
Gotta be drop safe and at least a .380 for a main CC gun, no smaller than .32 for a backup.

If it's a revolver then the calibers go up due to needing every shot to count.
DA/SA is also a preferred feature and while the Walther fits, it's kinda big and it's also expensive for a CC gun.

>>33257062
Also, the Makarov is perfect for CC.
Quick follow up shots, good mag capacity, easy to conceal, and not very expensive.

And best of all it's drop safe so your butt cheeks won't get holy if you sit down too fast or fall over.

>>33256868
Just get a Tokarev if you're not interested in a Makarov

>>33257002
9x18 has modern defensive ammo, so being "weaker" than 9mm Luger is relatively moot these days

There are better guns chambered in 9x18 than the Makarov. The P-64 and P-83, for instance.

.380 ACP is pretty damn good with modern bullet geometries/materials, btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_C6kNfjiA

>>33257062
>>33257088
Thank you for your thoughts.
Would you really not rely on a Tokarev for CC, though? I haven't looked at ballistic gel tests for .380, Makarov, and Tokarev, but Tokarev rounds tend to have significantly more force and speed behind them than the other two, from what I understand.
>>33257094
>modern defensive ammo
What do you mean by this? .32ACP has similar velocity and force to the Makarov, and 7.62x38R is supposedly better by both statistics. Are you talking about reliability and/or cost?

I am looking at Wikipedia's listed ballistic performances for the cartridges. Does doing so make me an idiot?

>>33257179
9x18 hollow points; Barnaul, Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Hornady all make some

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScHzHz3dItI

>>33257179

Tokarev's are thin, which helps with carrying, but they're still pretty big.

You might also like the website ballisticsbytheinch.com for velocity and energy charts.

For gel tests, brassfetcher.com is a great resource.

>>33257179
I have a Tokerev and a CZ-82 (and a buddy I shoot with frequently who always has his Makarov with him) and I've only ever tried carrying the Tokerev in any capacity once.
I used the flap holster that came with it and brought it with me innawoods in case of coyotes.
Went out, then came back a few hours later and decided to remove the round from the chamber.
I nearly had a heart attack because there was a dent in the primer damn near deep enough to set it off.

I carry the CZ-82.

And while the 38r may actually provide a ballistic advantage, reloading is slow and holsters are near nonexistent and the trigger is worse.

9x18 is like a hotter .380 with FMJ loads and like a light loaded 9mm Luger with defense ammo. It's easier to reload, cheaper to practice with, and it's all together a great cartridge.

And .32 is backup only because I don't trust it to penetrate as much as I do 9x18.

In short, a tokerev will wind up shooting you, 7.62x38r is expensive and has a worse gun for it, and .32 ACP is really just a bit too small.
Alternatively consider a .380 or some ultra-small 9mm Luger thing like a PF9.

>>33257228
I do concur, the Tok is thin as fuck and the drop safe Yugoslavian 9mm Luger ones seem great for carry.

Dunno why they slipped my mind for this post (>>33257253)

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>>33256868
I have a tokarev and a mak, just get the mak. It's the same price or cheaper on some sites and ammo is way cheaper.

They're both really fun to shoot, but you'll have an easier and safer time concealing the mak.

>>33257214
Hollow point. Yeah, that kind of throws the Nagant out the window for defense purposes, and it's already the weakest of the three I'm looking at.
>>33257253
Isn't it recommended to keep the chamber empty for Tokarev pistols? It's a fair criticism, though.
I guess I should reconsider Makarovs. Would a Walther really be impossible to CC conveniently, though? I've never heard anything bad about it other than the issues that were solved in the P1 (with the larger slide and hex bolt upgrades).

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Masterrace reporting

>>33257253
>I carry the CZ82

what condition do you carry it in and what holster do you use? I'm getting my license soon and after using all of my pistols at the range again I really would prefer to carry the CZ82 over anything else I own.

>>33257337
Israeli carry is for fucktards.
Single action is meh but if you practice enough you can be fine.

A tokerev would make an excellent car gun though.

I can't speak too much for the walther as I've never held one.
I have heard that the P1s have problems with modern ammo though.

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>>33256868

Every gun you mentioned is fun at the range, but not really any of them are good for CC/Defense. Take the following with a grain of salt, as these are merely opinions, and my Tokarev is one of the modern-production Zastavas.

My Tokarev is incredibly accurate, and I love the speed with which a round can get to a 100 yard gong, but the thing's a jam-o-matic. Like I said, this may be due to not being an actual commie gun, but I suspect it's due to low polish and/or such a short, steeply-shouldered round.

Nagant Revolver is fun to shoot due to low recoil, but because of this I'd personally not feel comfortable for using it as a defense option unless I'm up against raccoons. Slow reload is a detriment.

Walther P38/P1 again, very fun, very reliable, but above all, too historically valuable in my mind to potentially end up in a police locker. A good alternative would be something in the Beretta 92 family, as they're directly derivative of the P38.

Lugers may not necessarily be too expensive, I bought a mix-matched 1942 production Mauser P-08 for $650 at Cabela's just last year. The only thing to look out for is that they can be finicky, especially based on ammo type, as the Germans used a heavy (147 grain?) load, so most of the modern ammo you'll find may cycle, but still not have enough power to lock the toggle back after your last round. Also, the magazines are a pain in the ass to load.

In conclusion, if you like old style guns, get a Beretta, or a Bersa Thunder .380 for the PPK-likeness

>>33257318
Also, I had some issues at first with my Romanian Tok. It was double firing, not sure if it was the pistol or me but after shooting for a year after getting it and replacing the hammer assembly, it hasn't happened. Just be aware that any surplus firearm, even in VG condition is potentially 60+ years old and can have issues that the distributor most likely won't address or pay for and it will be up to you to identify the issue, purchase parts and most likely fix it yourself as gunsmiths have looked at my shit and said it wasn't worth it to do the work.

So fuck them, get all the pistols you're considering and start your collection and figure which is best for your purposes! Good luck!

>>33257350
DA, and den pending on the weather (and what I'm wearing) I either tuck it in my waistband or my pocket.
I have huge ass pockets.
Either way I have a duct tape slip over thing so the trigger doesn't catch on anything and it has a hook to keep it from falling down my pants whenever IWB.

>>33257349
I prefer the longer barrel varieties, but that's a pretty gun.
>>33257364
I've never heard it called "Israeli carry", but okay.
The oldest P1s could get cracked slides from high-power/grain modern ammunition, but the larger slide and hex bolt were introduced to counter that. I haven't read any complaints about the newer versions, and the original P38 did just fine with the ammo of its time.

>>33257380
Thanks for the insight on each gun.
I know the Nagant was a workhorse, but its age and unique seal make it on-par with the P38 for historical value, in my opinion. Yeah, the reload speed is terrible, but firefights tend to be over for civilians within the first magazine, aren't they? Fair point, though.
I've definitely considered a Beretta; they're good-looking and have a great ancestor in the P38, even if they are modern weapons.
Congrats on your P08, but $650's a bit much for me. Beautiful gun, but $500 is my hard limit.
>>33257381
>get all the pistols
Maybe someday, haha. Thanks for the warning on the Tokarev (along with the warning from the guy I also replied to in this post); I hadn't heard about these issues before.

>>33257253
What are you takling about tokerev is chambered for 7.62x25, are you taking about a revolver nugget.

>>33257400
Read this thread and learn more about P1's / P.38's. A lot of what you've been told is myth

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/4a9jgb/just_got_finished_with_my_new_carry_gun/

>>33257473
why do you want a historical piece as a carry gun? You do realize what can happen to it if you ever use it right? I say this as a guy who collects older guns, my carry gun will always either be an easily replaced one with little historical value or just a brand new Glock/S&W/etc since modern carry pistols are about the same as most historically significant pistols or less.

>>33257524
So... The old P38s were just fine for much higher-grain rounds?
Either way, I'm probably getting a cheaper P1, given that they're almost identical, and the changes don't seem to have compromised it in any way.
What am I supposed to be getting from reading this?

>>33257512
I'm talking about both.
>>33257628
/thread.

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>>33256868
I CC a Mak

They're not bad for CC and they do make defensive ammo for them.

I did replace the main spring and penis grip with a FAB-Defense grip. They're a pain to get on and off but feel really nice.
I plan to put better sights on next but that will require machine work.

I will say also that the recoil on a mak is a bit snappy if that makes sense.

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>>33256868
> I'm currently looking at the Walther P38 family, Tokarev pistols, and the ancient Nagant M1895 revolver
Don't do either of those.

Smith & Wesson 3913

Thin, metal alloy frame. 3 1/2 inch barrel. It's easily concealable.

>>33257628
Historical value + the same features I'd be considering in a modern gun = a more desirable gun, to me.

It does pain me to consider damaging a historical piece, but some of these weapons were produced in massive quantities. I didn't mention it earlier, but I probably wouldn't CC a Luger P08 because those are on the rarer side and arguably true works of art, at least when compared to more mass-produced, machine-tooled guns (hence, their price, plus the sheer demand for something like that).

What are some more modern guns you'd suggest besides the Beretta 92FS?
>>33257717
>either of those
Do you mean all three, or you mean the Tokarev and Nagant?

>>33257717
What is the one on the far right of the third row + the revolver on the bottom left?

>>33257717
>everyone has sexy cz82 grips but me

goddammit I really need to get on that train

>>33257750
Just buy a modern gun that nobody would give a shit about if it had to sit in an evidence locker for a long time for "work" and save your collector pieces for "play". Besides, historical firearms just won't stack up to the features and benefits a newer pistol has. Capacity, sights, safety features (especially drop safety), and biggest of all

holsters.

Because good fucking luck finding a high quality holster for something like a cz 82 or mak that was made for it. And getting those shitty little "one size fits all" holsters or just stuffing it in your waste and Mexican style is a bad idea.

Meanwhile getting a semi compact Glock or S&W will have a huge amount of holsters available and those pistols are often designed from the ground up to be carried, but with modern materials. Plus, if you do ever use it, it can sit in an evidence locker and rust for all you care, nobody collects polymer pistols. It'll be lighter too.

This is coming from a guy who HATES how the new pistols look, I'd still much rather carry one if I was actually trusting that firearm with my life. At least I know it'll be drop safe, rated for self defense ammo, have a warranty, etc. etc. etc.

>>33257785

Looks like a Mauser 1914.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDO4LP6v5xc

>>33257785
The revolver is an Enfield (or Webley) Mk IV.

The pistol is a mauser (either an M1913 or some or 19-- handgun. They all kinda blur together with the names)

>>33257750
>Do you mean all three, or you mean the Tokarev and Nagant?
Yes.
>>33257785
Mauser 1914.
>>33257846
Too bad I hate the pistol with the fury of a thousand sons and haven't shot it in about five years.

>>33257881
>The revolver is an Enfield (or Webley) Mk IV.

Enfield No2. Mk.1* with the fuckawful wartime Suncorite enamel finish that held up as well as unrefrigerated whole milk.

>>33257885
how so, I really like my 82?

Then again you have a lot more variety of kick-ass pistols than I do so I guess you're a bit spoiled for choice.

>>33257661
Hex pins are a myth, fat slides a shit, Gen I P1's and post-war P.38's are the best, late cyq P.38's were sabotaged

>>33257711
>Makarov
>snappy recoil

Yeah? I find it pretty mild compared to a 9mm Luger; and I'm a bony guy.

>>33257846
>>everyone has sexy cz82 grips but me
I need to pick some up for my 83 for practicality — the range I go to is a constant 80 burger degrees and the plastic grips don't do well with sweaty palms.

>>33257992

never shot a Luger before so I wouldn't know.

>>33258045
I'm not talking about a Luger, I'm talking about the cartridge; 9x19 Luger.

>>33258107

ah fuck my bad I misinterpreted what you said

I mean it's not bad but compared to other .380 handguns I've shot the recoil seems more sudden, but maybe that's just me.

It's still fun to shoot though

>>33257711
>someone here actually uses the futuristic grips that get posted from time to time
Neato. Does that mag release work well?

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>>33256868
>P38
Holds 8rds and is way too big for CC

>Tokarev
Mediocre, but at least reasonably sized for it's capacity. The old Soviet ones are not safe to carry with a loaded chamber, consider a Serb Zastava, it has a real safety and is available in 9mm Luger

>Nagant revolver
Genuinely fucking awful, trigger is rape, ammo is pricy compared to 9mm, and all of it is watered down target loads, reloads like a quadriplegic Single Action Army.

Since you seem concerned with cost, and want something in steel and old fashioned, I will suggest the FEG P9R
>9mm Luger
>DA/SA
>14+1rds
>looks a bit like a Browning Hi-Power
>all steel
>cheap

>>33258266
I agree 100% anon. The straight blowback action makes the Mak's recoil feel "snappy." They are utterly reliable and accurate though.

>>33258724

Works flawlessly! Fits very comfortably in the hands and the mag release is right where my thumb is

Only thing it needs now is new sights, just need to find a local gunsmith that can do machine work on the slide

>>33259605

Definitely agree with anon, especially on the nagant revolver.
You won't hit shit with it

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrkBSFBA0f0

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>>33256868

Browning high power, it was used by several countries in ww2 including germany, is old as fuck, and can still keep up with modern handguns. It can hold 15 rounds flush with modern mags

>>33256947
>It's like what a 1911 could have been but wasn't.
An overrated .30 caliber cartridge, a fidgety sear pack that makes the gun burp the entire magazine out if a spring is put in facing the wrong way, as well as not being drop-safe?

Yeah, totally better than the 1911 bro!
(which is also overrated)

>>33257150
>P64
>better than Makarov
Not even ironically.

>>33257380
>The only thing to look out for is that they can be finicky
The bigger issue is that a lot of them have worn out springs, and you'd have to get them all replaced to get the best reliability, and I don't think Wolff makes a spring kit for the Luger.

MecGar magazines help too.

>>33257750
Probably mostly the Nagant, it's a goddamn fucking piece of shit and about the worst revolver you can carry short of a Röhm.

Low powered, VERY awful (like really fucking atrocious) trigger that makes it difficult to shoot, very slow reload, and no good defensive ammo.

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>>33259605
Second option is a Smith & Wesson 5906 functionally similar to the FEG, though they're a bit more modern looking, they're all steel, can have wood grips fitted, and have 17rd flush mags available.

>>33256868
>gun I admire but view as "too vanilla"

Are you looking for a carry piece or a lifestyle accessory? You kind of sound like you're looking for something that'll make a fashion statement. I'm not sure this is the right board for fashion questions.

>>33257002
It's not as punchy as 9mm Luger but it's better than 380 and 380 is a common carry caliber. I'd be more concerned with magazine size instead of muzzle energy between 9x19 and 9x18

>>33257150
>P64 and P83
>Better than a Mak
Confirmed for never firing either, both are even more snappy than a Mak and both have considerably worse triggers than a Mak

The only Mak contemporary Slav pistol that would be considered better than a Mak would be th CZ82. The Mak is a pretty damn fine pistol for what it is.

>>33260816
>Makarov
>technically wouldn't be drop-safe
>clears literally every drop-test people subject it to
It's a little trooper.

>>33260816
>Makarov
>730g
>1.16" wide
>8 round magazine

>P-64
>620g
>1.06" wide
>6 round magazine

>P-83
>730g
>1.2" wide
>8 round magazine

>VZ82
>800g
>1.4" wide
>12 round magazine

As far as CC is concerned, the P-64 would be the easiest to carry, what with being the lightest and thinnest of the bunch. Though I'll admit I'd rather have the VZ82 for actual combat. It'd make a great glovebox gun.

>>33260924
>>VZ82
>>12 round magazine
I've heard some claim it's 13 rounds, but that may be for the 83. But the 83 is supposed to use the same mags; no one really seems to know.

>>33260942

They're made in both 9x18 and .380 ACP. If they use the same mags, it's possible you could fit an extra .380 in there, seeing as the 9x18 is .018" larger in diameter.

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>>33260942
probably meant 12+1, although I have a mag that will fit 13 rounds, it feels like a bad idea and the one time I tried it it caused a malfunction on the first round chambered. Only problem I ever had with mine.

>>33260924
as a guy who owns the P64 and CZ82, another thing people forget to compare are the safeties and controls.

P64 has a decocker and can also be carried "cocked and locked" but sometimes the safety at that position goes off for like no reason. The decocker mode takes conscious effort to flip, the only issue is the halfway point where you can leave it cocked. That is very easy to accidentally slip off to fire.

the CZ 82 on the other hand has a 1911 style thumb safety and from the look of the duty holster I picked up for it, was made to be carried with one in the chamber and on safe, as it has a thumbstrap that can only be snapped in if the hammer is back. It has no decocker.

CZ82s are also interesting for being an ambidextrous design (except for the slide release) and having a western style button mag release. Most 9x18 pistols have heel releases, and even though my P64 has a pretty nice one, the button release is better on the CZ82. The cz is also easier to field strip, has better sights, better grips, has a pretty nice DA/SA trigger, and has much less snappy recoil. It also has a nice big trigger guard that lets it easily be used with gloves.

P64 has it beat on size, weight, and ease of finding a holster, if only because it mimics many ppk style designs (the cz 82 has a very odd shape that most holsters don't like). I also think the p64 a bit more mechanically accurate, but good luck getting it with its worse ergonomics. Even my tiny Manlet hands have a hard time getting a solid grip on it.

>>33261601
>probably meant 12+1
Nah it was 13+1, and yeah they were probably forcing it. The manual for the 83 says 12.

>>33261601
I believe the CZ-82's sights can also be changed for modern CZ sights with no machine work.

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>>33256868
Join me brother Anon and get a FN/Browning Hi Power

>used by the Nazis once having captured the Belgian FN factory, 300,000 were made AND used by Allied (namely Commonwealth) troops when produced in Canada as a standard sidearm, even Rhodesia used it
>one of (if not THE first IIRC) the first high capacity double-stack pistols
>a child of our beloved John Moses Browning
>shoots the plentiful and efficient 9x19mm parabellum
>can go for a perfectly decent 500USD or so

>>33260275
>overrated
No.
A Proto-5.7x28.
The trigger pack isn't meant to be pulled apart by someone who isn't qualified (sadly this is a bit of a drawback)
And I already said it wasn't drop safe.
1911s weren't during that era either, but they had that retarded grip safety and awful .45 ACP cartridge and squishy ballsack of a trigger.

>>33256868
So, I'm going to be getting my first handgun next week, and I have the choices down to either an RIA 1911 (with nickel plating and pearl grips for dat sweet sweet pimp astetic), or a BHP w/ matching stock/holster.
I would rather a 1911 if I ever had to defend my life with it, and it really wouldn't be too great a loss to let it rot in some evidence locker.
But you just don't see very many stocked hi-powers for sale, and it's not that bad a gun.
What do you guys think?

>>33264481
You're basically asking whether you should get a Browning gun in .45 ACP or 9x19 Parabellum.
Do you want to stop your attacker with a cheap, efficient, powerful bullet? Get the BHP. Even .22 pistols can be effective deterrents for civilian vs. criminal confrontations because criminals don't want to fuck with an armed civilian.
Do you want to almost absolutely kill the person accosting and murdering/raping/robbing you? Get the M1911. .45 ACP is meant to kill. It's not quite as economical and versatile as the 9x19mm Parabellum, but it is meant to destroy what it hits.

>>33263902
Surplus Hi-Powers are too beat up, I'd rather spend $900 for a new one IMO.

>>33264616
I would rather have a 1911, but it's a stocked hi-power for 1k even.
I'll probably never find another for sale again, and definitely not for this cheap.

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>>33257253

With the right load, .32acp can be a very effective self defense weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMKYal5Tles&t=356s

Pretty good considering how tiny some of those .32 pocket guns can get.

>>33263943
>A Proto-5.7x28.
Which is also overrated.

Face it, they're mediocre pistol cartridges and best suited for longer barrels.

Glock 17 or 19 for a first gun (HD)
or another pistol
big hands

Different guy here. I'm surprised to see that people are trying to steer the OP away from a Tokarev. To my knowledge, its main pros are that the standard ammunition for it will defeat any kind of soft body armor and that it is inexpensive. What downsides does it have that warrant not recommending it?

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Have too many handguns, but in the old and used category (and currently available somewhere), I have a neat JO Kareen I got from Buds as Israeli police surplus a while ago. It was a fairly rough looking two tone version. Had a local cerakote it, and then I took out the magazine safety myself, which improved the trigger. Great little gun once it was cleaned up. Supposedly Classic has some they're going to sell soon.

>>33265714
would be neat to obtain some confiscated cartels all gold gun

>>33265565
who the fuck mugs someone wearing body armor? You want more capacity and hollow points.

>>33265565
When the fuck do you expect to fight armored jiggaboos? Focus on the actual penetration depth (sans armor) as well as cavity and things of the sort.

It's drawbacks include:
>combloc imports had no safety, after the passing of the 1968 GCA, a safety was mandatory for imported pistols
>importers added safeties to the Tokarev to import it, these safeties vary wildly, some work, some are token at best, at least once have I heard of one tripping the sear
>fiddly FCG unit, can cause slamfiring if not assembled correctly (easier to fuck up than you'd think)
>not drop-safe in the slightest, conscripts were intended to carry on half-cock or with an empty chamber
>7.62mm Tok isn't really a BAD performer, but it's not really amazing either
>all commercial 7.62mm in North America is downloaded because the CZ52 is a real weak sister that isn't very strong, and people are worried about liability suits
>likewise the CZ52 has a slightly smaller bore that commercial ammo is set up for, so you don't get the same accuracy as you could from a Tokarev
>because of these reasons, you don't really get the best potential out of the gun that you would have

If you MUST carry a Tokarev, I insist that you look at the Zastava M70A, it's in 9mm Luger, it's drop-safe, and it has a real manual safety that very positively engages and blocks the firing-pin. It's not a wonder, but it's basically the TT33 made more practical and brought to a more modern standard.

>>33265913
Zastava M88As in 9mm are readily available, and are cheap. They rust like fucking pig iron, but the shit works.

I have some strange pistol that I dont have much information about. Its a Karl Pfestorf 7.65mm.

Anyone know anything about them?

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>>33266358
Company that made them still exists as a reformed automotive parts maker and office furniture producer. Briefly made firearms that were of marginal popularity.

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20o%20p%20q%20r/a%20pfestorf%20gb.htm

http://www.kpfestorf.de/en/

>>33265320
Compared to what?

And yeah it's amazing out of a longer barrel, but it's also pretty damn good out of a pistol length one as well.

>>33266433
looks like it would be a superb hipster gun