K&M M17S308 vs Desert tech MDR

An X95.

>inb4 its a 5 moa rifle

Its not. Its a 3 moa PDW. You planning on engaging targets past 200m with a PDW? K.

At least the platform has been around since the early 2000s and has been battle tested.

>>33236084
Is that chambered in 7.62 NATO?

>inb4 muh keltec
I'm pretty sure both these rifles in prototype outperform that weapon.

>>33236084
a PDW is a little smaller than the X95.
Why get the x95 when the tavor doesn't have those same issues and is actually shorter?

>>33236305
the only bad thing about the lel kek is the open ejection port
don't dump it in mud and it beats all bullpups on the market.

>>33236341
That's if you use the specific type of ammunition it wants to work with that day.

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>>33236327

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K&M M17S308 specs

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>>33236445
MDR specs, though the weight has now changed to 8.4lbs

>>33236418
I only used the tavor as a comparison because it's supposed to be the previous version compared to the X95.

>vaporware vs. vaporware

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>>33235999
>got so annoyed at Desert Tech I bought a Keltec RFB

>>33236536
Yeah It literally said that in the post, I'm talking about based on the current information we know.

>>33236566
any problems with it?

>>33236566
In all honesty how good/bad is it? What issues does it have?

>>33236399
I haven't seen reports of malfunctions due to ammo.

>>33236574

haven't shot it yet, waiting for a scope to arrive (vortex razor gen 2 1-6x)

>>33236581

no shots yet, but trigger is probably the best bullpup trigger ive felt (others i own are aug, tavor and fs2k)

build quality is standard keltec... but i dont care if it is reliable (will find out soon)

one thing that is interesting is the 40 levels of gas adjustment (suck it FAL). on max gas you will probably destroy the gun? seems odd that keltec would even allow that kind of setting.

>>33235999
The MDR is in 7.62? Fuck, now I actually understand why people want it.

Though it was just another 5.56 bullpup and paid no attention.

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>>33236327

>is actually shorter?

Nigga what the US versions of both of them are 26.5in OAL

and the Israeli model is 22.8 in OAL with a 13in barrel

Also if you cut down the barrel to 9in you can get it down to 17.75 with the slim buttpad most definitely a PDW

>>33236762
Comes in 7.62 and 5.56 standard with a conversion kit to 300blk. All are interchangable with a replacement bold and barrel.

>>33236813

What the fuck is the point of a ~20" weapon? What's the extra 6" hurting?

Name one thing a 32" M4 can't do that a 26" Mk18 or Tavor or whatever can do that isn't splitting hairs.

Also, if we're talking close quarters, how much more "effective" is a weapon with a 10.5" barrel going to be over a 14.5" barrel in 5.56?

It's almost like fags that complain about "muh OAL!" and shit have no fucking clue what they're talking about.

Don't even get me started on the whole "muh car/apc!" or "muh super oper8tr Jew Army!" bullshit. Militaries don't have their people shoot out of their vehicles first of all, especially considering it's likely to be bullet-resistant, secondly, M4's are plenty short, thirdly, you, as a civilian, are likely to have your pistol more at hand to, for whatever reason, shoot through your windshield, and if anyone's farther, the fuck are you shooting at them from your car for? What kind of cramped piece of shit do you have where you can't shoulder an AR decently while sitting? Why not stick it out the window? Have you never taken a class that teaches this? Pat McNamara has a class like this for example and he uses ARs.

Fourthly, why do the Israeli's still use AR's in such large quantities, even in tunnel-clearing ops if "muh OAL" is so damn important? Why do SAS use AR's over L85s? Why are NZ, France, etc. switching from bullpups to ARs?

If it's just something "cool" to own or whatnot, that's fine, but why are you trying to justify it based on defense/combat-related talking points? If storage is a concern, get a folding stock.

I like bullpups, don't get me wrong, but if we're talking about "muh combat situation(s)", I'd take an AR or AK over any bullpup any day.

>>33237055
The SAS use it because the L85 isn't as versatile at altitude or underwater.

I don't know what your talking about regarding NZ because both NZ and Australia recently put in an order for the new F90.

At the end of the day a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I personally really enjoy bullpups as the weight in the rear makes it very stable in the shoulder as well as allowing me to accurately fire with one arm if needed. Which leaves another arm free to draw a magazine, give directions, work a mic or I dunno have a wank.

>>33236084
>16" Barrel
>5.56x45mm
>effective range is only 200m

^If using (((Tavor))) trash that is

lol

>>33237055
TL;DR
Israel still uses ARs because its a Jewish state and the US is giving them away for free and as far as I know only older units are using ARs new soldiers should be getting X95s tho they may train with both, also I feel you about the barrel length thing, but when they want a lighter weapon, the first thing they do is cut the barrel

>>33237092
Are you sure? I've only been hearing about the LMT AR winning.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/08/18/new-zealand-army-selects-lmt-to-produce-rifle-to-replace-steyr-aug/

Also, I've never bought into that "weight distribution" stuff. As you say, it's personal preference probably. I've never really been a fan of the weight being rearward, nor being of the persuasion that it helps. I don't find AR's front heavy either and can easily shoulder it comfortably with one arm if need be. I actually tend to prefer my weapons being a little heavier or trending front-heavy, but that's probably just out of habit, growing up shooting 1903's, Garands, Nuggets, and so on. I also never seem to see many bullpups in 2 or 3gun when I go, nor do I see champs using them. I also tried making a rear-heavy Mk18 once, didn't like it.

Honestly, are you going to be in a situation where you're going to need to keep the weapon up and level like that for extended periods? Even if you were, even with fatigue, you're most likely going to be within 30ft of someone, easily within point-shooting effectiveness and all that. In a military or police context, it's even further moot considering you have buddies all around you.

Again, Pat McNamara has this type of workout regime that specifically addresses holding your rifle up for extended periods with a sling. Add a sling (they're not that damn constricting or slow to employ imo) and I doubt a bullpup can compete. Though, if I had M203's or M320's I would prefer a bullpup if I HAD to attach them to something. I'd much rather carry them standalone, but I will give bullpups that in regards to military use.

>>33237236

Also, I also find it strange that every time the US has looked for a replacement, as an example, bullpups are usually left out of the finals. Hell, I think there was a bullpup version of the FAL trialed in the UK that lost out to the normal version, meaning there has to be something going for "conventional" types over bullpups evidenced by the continual rejection by many militaries and the efforts seeming to "revert" back to "conventional" types. Though, saying that, I would've loved to see the Model 45A actually developed. (https://www.forgottenweapons.com/us-model-45a/)

The balance thing is up in the air to me really. It could really make a huge difference, but I personally haven't noticed it or seen people in the service complain about it. The longer barrel = more effective thing is kind of pointless imo due to rounds like M855A1, Mk318, Mk262, 6.5, 6.8, .300BLK, LSAT Caseless rounds, .264 USA, and so on. Especially in close quarters. If I wanted an ultramicro PDW for close in, give me a weapon with a folding stock in 5.7, 9mm AP, or something. It'll be shorter, or at least just as long as something like the P90 while being just as, if not more, effective. I'd also think current doctrine with DMR's and LMG's suppressing dudes at range is fine, no real need to equip every grunt with a 1,000y+ capable weapon...?

>>33235999
Both terribly impractical and stupid

buy an ar-15 / SCAR like a reasonable adult or fuck off

>>33237236
Ah maybe the Kiwis did scrap it but I know the Aussies are sticking with the F90.

Probably the only time you'd need to shoulder one handed for long periods would be if you were injured. I've seen a guy with a broken arm put precise fire out to 200m standing with an l85a2 and accurate suppressing fire further.

Again yes this is a very specific scenario and not one I imagine most people would be in but it's a good consideration.

The F90 looks interesting in regards to the modular 203 you can add to it.

>>33237271
I think one of the biggest factors it boils down to is cost.

Why would you spend money designing and trialing a new weapon platform when you already have one that works.

>>33237236

That was supposed to say "Pat McNamara has this type of workout regime that specifically addresses holding your rifle up for extended periods ***WITHOUT*** a sling." not "with".

I should add that the rear-heavy Mk18 was more of me experimenting with balance. I thought "Hey, maybe I just don't like the feel/ergos/etc. of the bullpups I have and just prefer the AR overall, so maybe making it rear-heavy will change my opinion of that issue on something I'm more "comfortable" with?"

Speaking of weight distribution, I think one of the reasons I dislike my X95 so much is *specifically* because it's SO rear-heavy. I much prefer my AUG since it's weight seems to sit more forwards or something. You can set that thing with a mag on a book and it'll balance right at the grip, it's pretty sweet.

I will admit though, something I think bullpups do really well with is shotguns. The KSG makes a lot of sense. Not only is it shorter, it holds more rounds. As much as I love my 590, it's only got so many rounds, so I like the capacity, and as short as my Serbu is (not that I necessarily mind the 590's length though), again, only so many rounds. The P90 is kinda neat too, but I've only ever shot the one with the 16" barrrel. If I ever own one, I'm definitely SBR'ing it.

Again, this all can probably be traced back to my growing up. 1903's and the like are long, heavy guns, so I'm used to them, like Jerry Miculek is used to heavy revolver triggers and doesn't really make a big fuss with high-grade match triggers and all that. Hell, I find it a lot of fun and not at all that difficult to run 2gun matches with my AR-10's. Running around with a suppressed, 4-plus-foot-long, heavy-ass rifle really doesn't hamper me like some bullpup and ultra lightweight AR aficionados would have me believe.

>>33237281

Tbh, the AUG is one bullpup I actually do like a lot and would think they'd of just went with the F90 as well. It looks pretty rad. Maybe they're thinking it'll be more modular and adaptable down the road?

A lot of the procurement logic I hear about is cost, so perhaps they think "Hey, we can get these things in 9mm, 5.56, .308, and even belt-fed!" but who knows. Maybe they just wanted to switch it up?

>Probably the only time you'd need to shoulder one handed for long periods would be if you were injured. I've seen a guy with a broken arm put precise fire out to 200m standing with an l85a2 and accurate suppressing fire further.

I get that, I understand the reasoning behind it, it's just that I've also seen people dragging people while they themselves are injured, laying down fire at goatfuckers 200 yards+ away, leading me to wonder just how much of the supposed "benefits" rearward balance really offers. Though, to be completely fair, adrenaline probably played a YUGE role in that specific circumstance.

This is unrelated, but does anyone know the reasoning behind a lot of folks sticking with M203's when the M320 is a thing? Seems like it's pretty much better in nearly every regard. I'd think the costs would be payed back over time considering you can future-proof your forces with longer, more effective rounds and whatnot.

>>33237287

That does seem to be the big thing, it just seems, at times, certain people make it out to be that all the supposed benefits of bullpups outweigh the cost burdens and whatnot of "conventional/traditional" carbines.

It just really seems bullpups, even into the future, aren't going to be widely adopted, but I suppose we'll see. Maybe when caseless rounds mature and we're walking around in exoskeletons we'll see them, especially considering nearly every sci-fi thing I've ever seen tends to have bullpups equipping everyone. Who knows. My vote is for the Seburo C26A and C30 from GITS.

>>33237362
I imagine adrenaline does help. I mean when I saw the guy we were on the range so I doubt there was a ton of adrenaline but it really is situational and down the the individual skill level.

>>33237374
Well the old sci Fi gun was the g36 but now they are all moving towards tavors and the like.

>>33237374
>My vote is for the Seburo C26A and C30 from GITS.

That, or the MR-C from Ghost Recon or that bullpup SMG from Killzone. Or maybe it was from Halo... or maybe Red Faction...?

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>>33237394

I take it back, if it's the M66 I'm thinking of from Killzone, it'd be absolute dogshit. Who designs these things?

>>33235999
Neither seem like the kind of gun that will make bullpups relevant again.

>>33237105

Strangely enough and speaking to that somewhat, Merkgunner was saying he actually preferred his AR over the Tavor, but I had a good laugh when he told me, at the time, they were still giving him 55gr shit to feed his 10.5"er.

On the weight thing, as I said, I actually don't mind a little weight, but that's obviously entirely preference and lighter is generally always better. Generally. A buddy at one of the 2gun matches near me lent me his lightweight AR with a skinny barrel (still a 16"er tho), a light-ass mlok forend, a minimalist stock and some grip I forget the name of, topped off with just one of those pistol-style red dots on a riser (I don't know the correct name for them). It wasn't bad but definitely not for me. Felt like a damn toy. I can't even imagine what those ultrasuperlight skeletonized 3gun ARs must feel like, yeesh.

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My new AR is pretty damn light like you're describing and a much prefer it, and now I want to build a stupid light one

>>33237407
The Helghan weapons are pretty cool but holy fuck are the ISA just lazy.

>Troy flip up front for notch rear
>magazines are just Lancers
>P99 grip, even still has the Walther logo on it

>>33237443

Who did your rail?

>>33237443
How would one build a small lightweight and controllable AR, I'm looking at trying to get one for my wife she is 5'3 and 100lbs so I'm needing something small and light.

>>33237407

How the hell are you supposed to shoulder that?

>>33237456
if you wanna just buy something out right F1 Firearms makes ultralights, also going with a shorter rail cuts weight too, pencil profile barrel, a stock like that one is also light too, you can get these at like 5lbs unloaded, give her a 10 or 20 round mag and ur golden

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>>33237454

They also have what are literally MP5K's and Bizons, which is just sad. Their main rifle is kinda neat for a bullpup, even though it's just basically a bullpup LR-300.

Though, I'd be on the Helghast bullpup like stink of shit, not even joking.

>>33237456

Is an SBR out of the picture? A kitted out 12.5"er could be just right for her if it's just for fun. Though, maybe a little pricey for a "for fun" gun for some I suppose.

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>>33237455
the rail, stock and pistol grip is made by Gun Tech, but I bought it as complete upper from Veriforce Tactical

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>>33237471

*Stick "ON" Shit, not of, obviously.

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>>33237362
>This is unrelated, but does anyone know the reasoning behind a lot of folks sticking with M203's when the M320 is a thing? Seems like it's pretty much better in nearly every regard. I'd think the costs would be payed back over time considering you can future-proof your forces with longer, more effective rounds and whatnot.

Most forces don't have a need for longer rounds, the M320 is also much more expensive being HK brand HK and is heavier (though not by much). The extra grip also means just more shit sticking off your rifle, the 203 at the very least is pretty slick and low profile. Of course it's more versatile but as with everything it has its trade-offs. HK's grenade launcher for their roller lock guns is sick as fuck and I wish DD legislation wasn't a thing.

>>33237478

Didn't even notice the selector in the first pic, that's fucking awesome my dude.

Now only if I had somewhere private to shoot or the guys at my local places weren't NeverTrump fucksticks, would I get myself one of those without having to basically make it a wall decoration. Hopefully they'll change their tunes. Their biggest issue, well, their ONLY issue, was that "they don't BELIEVE he'll protect the 2nd Amendment". When Trump M2AGA, I'll have the biggest shit-eating grin on next time I see them.

>>33237482

This shouldn't be so hard: "STINK. ON. SHIT"

>>33237483

That is pretty slick. The mount is neat especially. None of that shit from the M203 to fuck your fingers up or prevent the mag from dropping free or other such nonsense.

I would say though, that even if they might not "need" them "now", it might be good practice to future-proof your forces. That's mostly my main point. Then again, maybe they won't need them so soon into the future either I guess. There was apparently also some M203 mod that was proposed, or maybe even used by some country, that allows the longer rounds, I could be wrong though. IIRC, it could swing out to either side and was cocked different or something?

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>>33237507

With the wave of rifles following the SCAR that came out the last couple of decades pretty much every single one had their own grenade launcher to accompany it. I'm sure Colt proposed something similar to what you're describing before the 203 was replaced with the 320 but I don't actually know.

Also I think the F90 deserves an honorable mention for it's grenade launcher set up.

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>>33237548

Maybe I was just thinking of the M203 that just slides further forward. Oh well, not important really.

In that pic, the GL looks pretty short? Or is it just perspective or something? Must be pretty light and nicely balanced though.

This is off-topic but one thing that surprises me is that it'd seem, just at a glance, the GP-25 would be lighter than the M203 and such, but apparently they're about the same size and utility and all that. That's just from glancing at the Wikipedia articles on them both though.

For shits and giggles, we should re-introduce an updated version of pic related. You know, for the laughs, as I said.

>>33237590

I meant same weight, not size.

>>33237464

I guess you aren't. If you must though, I suppose it'd be a sort of "hold it high on your shoulder and don't touch your chin or cheek to the receiver" lol

Seems pretty craptastic desu. Rather just have a "traditional" pistol.

>>33237590
>>33237590
>For shits and giggles, we should re-introduce an updated version of pic related. You know, for the laughs, as I said.

Isn't that just a Mk 19 or Mk 47?

>>33237055
You

I like the way the MDR looks more, and field-conversion between .308 and 5.56 is just fucking neato.

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>>33240478
I like how the MDR has a suppressor built for it as well as an extended handguard for it.

>>33237938

No, it's basically an M1919 chambered in 40mm.

It's a hell of a lot lighter than the Mk 19 and was intended to be fired from the hip/shoulder as well as from the ground.

The XM-174 was like, 15lbs empty, whereas a Mk 19 is like 75lbs or something. The Mk47 is better at ~40lbs IIRC, but still more than twice as heavy.

Obviously it wouldn't have the range of the other two, maybe if those rocket-assisted grenades that were proposed ever got developed or whatever else happens through modernization, but that's not even it's intended use really.

Though, really, I suppose the Mk32 fills it's role just as well if not better now.

>>33237492
I can't wait to use the great again function on this thing man

>>33237055
silence ignorant swine

>>33237315
>hey guise I do 3 gunn
>iss just like real war