Glock Protesting Sig Contract

>>33142697

Gluck can go cry like a little bitch, there's no way they're going to break the contract, all they'll do is piss off the Pentagon.

In the meantime, the Marine Corps and Navy is still issuing 1911's to some units.

Kek.

>>33142697
Glocks just mad that their slight monopoly on serious use handygats is going the way of the dinosaurs. lets be honest here, the p320 is a more forward looking design than the g4 glocks by a long shot.

>>33142697
#notmymodularhandgunsystem

>>33143116
I'd normally tend to agree.

Here's the thing though, the p320 is a fucking monstrosity. You think the stock trigger on the S&W M&P is bad? You have no fucking idea. The 320 trigger is retarded its so terrible. Ergonomics? What the fuck are ergonomics? The overall size is fuckhuge for no good reason. The military isn't even going to make use of the modularity, which is the only feature(?) the sig has going.

I've rented one and fingered them at different stores and I have no real way to express what a fucking piece of garbage this pistol is.

I am a fan of several sig products, but this really makes me hate the brand as a whole.

Glock is miles ahead in quality and design. It must have come down to price. My 226 is such a nice gun, hard to think they were designed and manufactured by the same company

Glock is on the block and ready to rock

>>33143283
Thank god, I'm glad someone else gets it!

The trigger on this thing is fucking retarded.

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>>33142697
>submit handgun that doesn't fit the modular requirement aka the entire point of the MHS
>cry like a bitch when you loose
stay buttmad glocuck

>>33143283
>>33143377
its for officers as a paper weight, and a conversation piece. all that matters is maintenance, and inventory. not shoot ability.

>>33143536
This; all the guys who actually use handguns to shoot people are already using Glock 19s.
What the punks and losers in the regular Army get stuck with is immaterial.

>>33143283
Strange, i owned and fired a sig p320 fullsize for a while and came to more or less the opposite conclusions. trigger was slightly better than glock but nowhere near as good as my semi tuned CZ, pistol was accurate, not too thick, grip was alright but nothing to write home about and slightly long on the FS frame. My only real complaints would be the size/pointyness of the take down lever and that the bore-axis seemed like it was slightly higher than necessary. Only tried one other sig(P229DAK), but i liked the P320 more than it.

>>33143283
>>33143377

the p320 has one of the best stock triggers of the polymer striker fired guns, much more crisp and a much better reset than glock

the ergonomics are just fine, the gun points a lot more naturally than a glock and the palm swell feels a lot better than the standard glock brick design

honestly its not even that much heavier, its only slightly longer in the grip but its designed as a carry gun for the military not necessarily concealed.

go back to your cuck room glock fanboys

>>33143283
t. An Austrian washing machine inventor named Gaston.

>>33143560
this is actually false, most of the operators use hk shit
just because some SF issue glocks doesnt mean they actually use them

>>33143377
My striker trigger experience is Glock, FNS, Steyr, Kahr for ownership and: XD, VP9, Canik for just shooting - what's the deal with the 320?

>>33142697
Sig bid 200 and some change for each gun, that's hard to beat. There's some quote by a higher up to soldiers about remembering your weapon was made by the lowest bidder. They don't choose the best guns, it's the cheapest ones

>>33143665
Does everything except aftermarket as well as any other brand. trigger isn't as good as a PPQ but is =/> any other brand. Oh, and you can replace the entire frame for like 35$, and it's being picked up for GOV contracts left and right recently.

>>33143707
Yup they said it's $207 per gun for the 320. I think the M9 was $280.

>>33143707
this
sig won because its a bid
they satisfied the technical requirements, but money ultimately determines the future

>>33143654
Spec ops guys use whatever they want, they have a bunch of glock 19s in inventory but ultimately use a gun of their choice and a lot use sig 226s and 1911s

>>33143707
>that's hard to beat
Not really, most government purchases end cheaper than what they are on the civilian market, factoring in the size of the bulk and they become dirt cheap.

>>33143725
Plus the slide version shipping for the Army is pre-cut for a reflex sight.

>>33143785
this

>>33143725
Damn that's cheap, so what is the serialized part on them? Is it still the frame?

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>>33143847
The fire control unit

>>33143847
basically the trigger mechanism

>>33143803
Yeah, they retail at 600 to 750. I'd say 207 bucks is dirt cheap.

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>>33143536
>not knowing that the govt want soliders dead so they can collect their life insurance

>>33143875
Intresting, thanks for the info. Learned something new

>>33143888
I bought one last week for $489

Why make a big deal over something only officers are issued...

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>>33142697
whatever we get im guessing I wont ever shoot it unless I reenlist. my unit doesnt even get optics for our M4s/M16s let alone a new handgun

>>33143888
>600-700
I bought mine new for $450 kek
207 is dirt cheap for civilians but it's a average price for a government contract.

>>33143953
Because glocksalesmen realize that their product are now in danger

>>33143943
>>33143978
Got a compact for 475 as well. Not sure where 600-750 came from.

>>33143943
Cool story you got a good deal and payed under retail if that's true, but I don't believe you

>>33143978
Looks like we got a bunch of war dogs here, then why didn't another company under bid them and get the contract?

>>33143618

>the p320 has one of the best stock triggers of the polymer striker fired guns, much more crisp and a much better reset than glock

Out of three examples, I have to say that the trigger is the worst part about the 320.

It could be some major manufacturing differences. The long as fuck gritty take up, followed by mush, then a big snap and a reset that is, wait for it...wait for it......"..?......". Oh there.

I was surprised to say the least, and actually am still mad how bad it is. I am looking for a polymer striker fired, and this man.... It ain't the one by far.

I'm tempted to try it side by side with some budget pieces to find out a good comparison

>>33144072
Sorry, let me rephrase what I said: $207 is well within the "average" but definitely on the lower end of the boundaries.

>>33142781
But you can bet that cos will have the p320 by the end of August

>>33144223
My 320 does not display any of this. I have a smooth takeup and a crisp click.

The only thing I have questions about is when it fires, the rear of the slide comes up a couple of millimeters but it doesnt affect sighting or shooting.

>>33144280
Aka, it doesnt work right.

Shit guj by shit company.

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>>33143283
Whut? Raailzzzzzzzzz maaan

>>33144293
What doesnt work right? It shoots fine, over 1000 rounds through it with no malfunctions.

>>33144223
If the trigger is gritty, the FCU wasn't put back correctly

>>33144335

It's just trolls m8. I heard the P250s' trigger was shit, but the P320 was the complete opposite. Can't wait to get my hands on one to fire so I can get a taste of how it compares to a P7.

>>33144385
yeah I'm not a fan of the 250 trigger but I'm still trying to get used to it. Will probably trade it in for something else.

>>33143896
>not knowing that the govt want soliders dead so they can collect their life insurance
You what? SGLI goes to their designated recipients, not the government.

>>33144027
475 is pretty much retail on the stock 320s. 550 if you want trijicons.

I spoke with my lgs (am official licensed dig dealer) like two weeks ago about it, and they were trying to get me turned on about one with a reflex sight for like $775.

Either sig is riding the army contract to try to undercut glock's market share, or they're legit that cheap to manufacture, because the pricing on the 320 is seriously competitive.

>>33142697
i legit thought those guns were made out of chocolate.

>>33144438

Sig will probably lose money early on, and that's okay. Think about it:

>how many GI's will buy SIGS because "that's what I had in the Army"
>how many poorfags will buy sigs because "I can get them cheap military surplus magazines yo"
>etc

Let's be honest, in the US, Beretta wasn't shit before they got the M9 contract. Jack shit. They might have been big niggers in Italy but nobody in the US gave two fiddly fucks about 'em. 30 years later? One of the premiere firearms manufacturers in the United States.

SIG is playing the long game. By 2040-2050 barring we still have a Second Amendment, they'll likely be the most popular small arms manufacturer in the US.

>>33144438
They're MSRP'ing those purpose-built reflexes for $360, or $270 premium included in the pistol.

>>33144438
>>33144496
Government doesn't pay civilian market prices.

>>33144522

Of course not but I highly doubt SIG is making a profit per pistol right now, even at the current contract.

But they will make their money by selling optics, magazines, and other accessories.

Protests happen all the time from repairing some HVAC units to this here. If everything was handled properly with Sig, this will stand. I hope I can get my hands on the determination the GAO makes.

>>33144072
For all we know another company may have underbid them but didn't fulfill the requirements put forth or it wasn't the Best Value, which is the evaluation criteria as opposed to Lowest Price Technically Acceptable.

Criteria from the solicitation in my next post.

>>33144496
Beretta is still an also-ran. They're nowhere near the same level as Glock, Sig, HK, or S&W.
Nobody cares about the Px4 or the 90-Two or any of the other shit Beretta makes, it's just "MUH ARMY GUN" and, to a much lesser extent, the 1301 competition shotgun. That's it.

>>33143997
anon is full of it or is actually dumb enough to go to his LGS in bumfuckistan.

>>33144571
H.5.1 Factors and Sub-Factors to be Evaluated for Down-Select

The criteria for down-select evaluation (DSE) consists of both technical and non-technical factors. These factors are as follows:

Factor 1: System Accuracy Shooter In The Loop
Factor 2: Reliability and Service Life
Factor 3: License Rights Ammunition
Factor 4: License Rights Handgun and Accessories
Factor 5: Other Characteristics
Factor 6: Price

The System Accuracy Shooter in the Loop factor and the Reliability and Service Life Factor are equally important, and are more important
than the License Rights Ammunition, which is significantly more important than the License Rights Handgun and Accessories, which is
significantly more important than the Other Characteristics Factor, which is significantly more important that the Price factor. The
combination of all factors other than Price are significantly more important than the Price factor. The Government will weigh any
increase in merit rating against any additional price to determine if the parity of the relationship warrants the paying of a higher
price for additional merit. However, affordability may become more determinative in the event competing technical ratings are closely
grouped and offer comparable value to the Government. The Government reserves the right to down-select to other than the lowest priced
Contractor, or to other than the Contractor with the highest technical rating if the Government determines that to do so would result in
the best value to the Government. The Government will weigh the relative benefits of each proposal and the SSA will assess the results of the evaluations of each of the factors.

>>33144587

As a proud CX4 owner, I take offense to that. >:(

>>33144571
>>33144593
t. I work in Contracting

>>33144517
And they're msrping the pistols at 475, so 750 sounds about right to me. It might have been 775, I don't remember exactly since I didn't really want the sig sights.

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>>33144609
Oh, and that gun from Battlestar Galactica; how could I forget?

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>>33143377
>>33143283
Is this a meme? I dry fired one in the store and the trigger was great. It was light and crisp with no takeup and a short reset

>>33144587
You keep telling yourself that, glocuck

>>33144684
they're just mad the p320 is >

>>33144587
Im pretty sure berettas a heavyweight in sport shotguns man. They make some very nice doublebarrels

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>>33142781
The muhreens actually paid like $2000 per pistol for brand new production railed 1911s from Colt. MARSOC didn't like them that much and dropped them for Glocks.

>>33143283
>The 320 trigger is retarded its so terrible.
The P320 has a better trigger than the PPQ and the VP9 imo, and I say that as a VP9 owner.

>Ergonomics? What the fuck are ergonomics?

You and most other people here don't really know what that is either?

>The overall size is fuckhuge for no good reason.

This doesn't matter in the military, and the weight helps with recoil as does the slide height.

>>33144223
What fucking gun are you shooting, because it isn't the P320.

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>>33143283
> havent pulled p320 trigger ever
> claim their trigger a shit

Oh please Glock.

/k/ worships the ground you walk on.

Heaven forbid someone else gets a shot at a contract!

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>>33144976
>the most consistently retarded branch of the military paid $2000/gun for brown 1911s with railz and a 12,000-round service life

>>33145116
>Rented one

>>33145133
It cracked due to fact that the recoil spring was not replaced timely.

1911 call for spring replacement every 2k with original spring and colt specialy designed double spring for that gun and it last much longer but not for 12krds it couldnt save slide. Its also still safely functional at this point. 1911 continue to shoot even with cracked frame and slide. 1911 have been known to be good as new after the crack is welded up.

Git gud.

>>33144566
they'll make a killing on the civilian market, more than they already are

>>33145268
The RSA replacement interval for an HK45 is 20,000 rounds. Why do 1911 springs suck such shit?

>>33145336

A few months back when I was shopping for my first fun, I had a couple guys shill me on it.

>>33145380
It's just an old design, it can't be helped.

>>33145490
That and Colt QC and materials suck compared to other 1911 builders.

>>33143283
>The 320 trigger is retarded its so terrible.
You have shit taste. Glock triggers are bottom tier, don't get butt-mad cause SIG didn't copy Glock

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>>33142697

>>33145391
Be thankful they didn't shill you on glock or a shield.

>>33145590
Nice touch with the hand.

Bid was written for the Sig. STI knew this and though they had a better gun withdrew it. Procurement is fucked and dirty. Glocks will continue to be used in the capacity they are now. 320 is awful especially with a light attached.

>>33145380
Its older designed with non effective space for spring. Not to mention theres almost zero cushion and flex. Wilson shokbuffer is end to cracked frames. When they came around in 90s for competition shooter cracked frame became nonexistent with those who use shokbuffer

>>33145391
You must be some kind of brandfag if you'd consider recommending a good handgun as shilling. Let me guess, your spaghetti flew out of your pockets when they started to hand it to you, right?

>Anon is at a funstore
>Carrying his trusty Glock™ brand Glock™
>Anon makes his way to the SIG case and is greeted by an employee
>Employee and Anon make small talk, employee mentions the 320
>Anon doesn't know what to do, his pockets are practically overflowing with pasta sauce and his mind is seething with rage
>Employee notices Anon having a small stroke, but is still trying to be nice
>Goes to hand Anon the 320, and Anon, not wanting to look like the autist he is, takes it
>He mumbles about his Glock, asks if he can dry fire it, stumbling and stuttering the whole sentence
>Anon dry fires the 320, works the slide a few times, then hands it back to the employee, does his best to hide the frustrated tears, and walks out of the store
>He comes home and posts on /k/, hoping the other brandfags will come out of their respective containment threads and hugboxes to parrot his opinion
>Still ass ravaged over the whole thing

>>33142697
>>33138992

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>>33143179
underrated kek

>>33142697
They have to try, it's too big a contract not to. But they'll lose. The whole point of the competition was for a modular pistol. The Glock is not modular. It doesn't meet one of the competition requirements, while the SIG does. Glock doesn't have a leg to stand on, they lost fair and square.

>>33142781
>In the meantime, the Marine Corps and Navy is still issuing 1911's to some units.
Fudds will as Fudds do. Though the actual operators don't use them, they buy whatever they want privately and the "issue" guns sit on a rack.

>>33146140
>Glocks will continue to be used in the capacity they are now.
You mean as a cheap throwaway that special forces keep on the shelf so they have a standard handgun on paper, knowing full well that the actual warfighters private purchase their pistols anyway?

>>33146221

Actually I was just trying to fit in by using "shilling", which I have come to accept as standard parlance on 4chan. Both the exchanges in question were entirely enjoyable for me.

The irony is that I want to do everything I can to avoid buying a Glock, and would strongly prefer a SIG--so I guess I am a brandfag. The irony within the irony is that I'm looking for a decent CC gun, which leads me to believe I may have to submit to buying a Glock anyway.

I realize I could buy a 938 but I would rather carry a striker pistol than SAO.

It is true that my pockets are normally filled with pasta though. Autism's a helluva drug.

>>33142697

>Glock BTFO
I can taste tear
Top KEK

>>33143283
It a good thing the trigger group can easily be replaced.

>>33142697
Should have gone with a Glock 20 or 29 and ditched the gay 9mm.

>>33146221
it is not good though

>>33143283
Yeah I have shot two P320 and I have to say they had the worst trigger I have ever experienced on a striker fired handgun.

>>33146689
Hate to break it to you, but stopping power is a meme. 9mm is objectively the ideal cartridge for modern handguns based on how they're actually used, and you Fudds can cry about it.

>>33143283
>i've never been in the same room with a P320: the post

>>33146806
Glock fanboys really are a tiresome and predictable lot.

>>33146821
swing and a miss

>>33146830
If you're >>33146806
I'm not calling *you* a Glock fanboy. I'm calling >>33143283
A Glock fanboy.

>>33146806

Incidentally, you could say the same thing about any of my posts except with a woman I didn't pay for.

>>33146378
>I watched another yankee marshal video and feel the need to parrot his opinions as fact

Have the actual results of the competition been published yet? I'm curious to hear how each pistol performed.

>>33146906
according to this seemingly-perpetually winded man, the test consisted of 12k fired rounds, compared to the 35k round test of the xm9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOHeASx7tdw

He also mentions there already appears to be some durability issues with the barrels

>>33146893
Did he do a video on that? I don't follow him, so I wouldn't know. But if he did, he's right. Service pistols are often poorly taken care of and shot to shit, on top of being made by the lowest bidder. This is fine and doesn't matter to most troops since pistols are mostly a badge of rank for officers and a weapon of last resort for machinegunners and other personnel who don't carry rifles. But special forces guys actually use their pistols for more than just qualifying at the range, so they buy their own because the commercial market usually has a better option, and it's better to have a new gun than one that's been beat up and abused for decades.

Switching to the M9A3 would have made the most economical sense though, the M9A3 was bid under the M9 and they could reuse hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, of already acquired parts.

It's not just about money, they like change and they like doing shit even if it doesnt make sense.

The M9A3 address every problem of the M9 and surpasses the M9A1 which the Marines adopted in the early 2000s.

Only real change the MHS brings about is now the guns will be Striker fired. Going striker fired but adding a manual safety seems like a downgrade from a DA/SA to me, you still have to train safety disengagement and now you just have a worse trigger.

>>33142697
Bitch and moan, bitch and moan. Glock should be blacklisted from US military contracts for this.

>>33144587
Beretta is TOP TIER in the shotgun world. The 92 series also won contracts ALL OVER the world. It is used by military and police.

The 90-Two didn't take, I like Beretta but even I didn't care that much about it, but it wasn't really that much of a progression. The M9A1 was better recieved and the M9A3 is a great improvement.

The PX4, you're dead wrong on, as it's been adopted by police and military worldwide, Sheriffs and SWAT. It's also doing well in pistol competitions.It's a great gun.

>>33146988
>The M9A3 address every problem of the M9
>still has a metal frame
>still hammer fired
>still has a slide-mounted safety
>still has an open slide
>still uses an overcomplicated locking mechanism
The only real improvements are the addition of a rail and a threaded barrel.

>Going striker fired but adding a manual safety seems like a downgrade from a DA/SA to me
The manual safety is only there to satisfy the bureaucrats, it's perfectly safe to just ignore it or tape it in place.

>now you just have a worse trigger.
No, now you have a more consistent trigger. From a training perspective, it's much better to have a less crisp trigger that's consistent every single time, than a glass rod trigger with a variable pull that you have to train around. Most people in the military, and especially the types who are issued pistols, aren't gun guys. They're not going to be able to take advantage of a slightly nicer trigger pull, and they'll appreciate consistency and reduced training time much more.

>>33147020
This guy gets it. Beretta's biggest weakness is not the quality of their products or a lack of innovation but that their marketing to both civilians and LE is extremely weak.

>>33146801
If this is the case, why not go to .357 sig? It takes the philosophy behind the 9mm even farther.

>>33147122
Increased recoil and cost per round with decreased mag capacity

>>33147142
eh, all technically valid but

>cost per round

this could be alleviated by more organizations adopting it, especially in the case of a mil adoption.

>reduced mag capacity

by 1 or 2 rounds in most platforms

>increased recoil

can't really argue this one, but it's not much worse than hot 9mm

>>33147024
Metal frame, hammer fired, and open slide are all features, not problems. Slide mounted safety was REQUESTED by the military. There is no problem with it. It functions. It is easy to engage. I personally love the safety positions on Berettas much more than I do on the Sigs and its easier for me to disengage the M9 safety than the 1911.

The A3 improvements also include: different springs that lighten both trigger pulls, removable sights, included tritium sights, thinner Vertec style grip (with option to switch to M9 style wrap around grip), beveled magazine well, and new sand resistant magazines, as well as increased standard capacity.

I agree it's fine to ignore the safety, but soldiers will be specifically trained NOT to ignore the safety. Just as with the M9, they are supposed to keep the safety engaged and most will do so. So you're still training around the safety.

Most people in the military will never pull their pistol. Most people who have to fire their pistol will fire multiple times. They will most likely fire in strings and they will fire under pressure, meaning the first trigger pull (which isn't bad on an M9) is just one of many, and they can benefit from the follow-up shots. Again, the DA/SA was a military requirement in XM9 trial.

Further, if you are drawing your pistol, unless you are in the middle of the firefight, you can take the quarter second to cock the hammer and go right to SA pull.

>>33147044
It is strange how shitty Beretta is in terms of customer service/sales.

I don't get it. Their guns are great. They're just not great at selling them. I think the biggest boon for them was the initial contracts for the 92 and then Hollywood grabbing on and the 92 being all over.

What really attracted me to the 92 was The Matrix, even though Neo is actually using guns from Taurus.

All that aside, if you really want to see how to sell a gun, read "GLOCK: America's Gun."

It details how Glock managed to capture so many contracts and it has almost nothing to do with the gun and everything to do with salesmanship. Heck, "Glock leg" would have killed many other contracts, if not for Glock being such good salespeople and basically just giving guns away and sucking tons of dick.

It's also funny that Glock people, and tons of people on this board, think that guns like the M9 are only popular because of the military and Glock somehow is this magical gun that won everything on merit ,when the only reason why any civilian buys a Glock is because it's a cop gun and Die Hard 2 made it sound nifty.

>>33143973
how? I'm in a pog ass leg unit and 80% of our firearms got optics

>>33144976
I don't get this. It's a prettied up 1911. How the fuck do you get a 1911 in your hands in 2017 and go 'eehhhh, it's not really what I expected'?

>>33142781
What?

SEALs, Marsoc and army units have all jumped ship to Glock.

>>33147172
Ok, so you're a blind Beretta fanboy. The picture becomes much clearer. Protip; it's OK to like Die Hard and still admit that the M9 is flawed.

>Metal frame, hammer fired, and open slide are all features, not problems.
Polymer frames are objectively better. They're lighter, cheaper, quicker to manufacture, and can't rust, while being durable enough for the job.

Hammer fire is more complex, adds more parts, takes up more space in the frame, adds a point of failure in that mud can block the firing pin, and doesn't confer any real advantage apart from a debateably nicer trigger in single action. Which apparently doesn't even matter to professional competition shooters, because the Glock-style pistols are taking over slowly but surely.

The open slides adds ingress points for debris, weakens the slide and the weight savings it affords are canceled out by having a metal frame.

>Slide mounted safety was REQUESTED by the military
The military was wrong in the '80s. They're right now.

>It is easy to engage. I personally love the safety positions on Berettas much more than I do on the Sigs and its easier for me to disengage the M9 safety than the 1911.
Based on your posts, if the Beretta shaved a millimeter off your foreskin every time you fired you'd claim it was a feature. Your personal preference counts for nothing.

>different springs that lighten both trigger pulls
meh

>removable sights, tritium sights
Nobody's been impressed by that since the '90s.

>thinner Vertec style grip (with option to switch to M9 style wrap around grip)
The P320 can replace the entire grip frame with no tools, and is thus infinitely customizable.

>beveled magazine well
Gamer feature that doesn't confer that much of an advantage outside of competition.

>and new sand resistant magazines, as well as increased standard capacity
That's more a testament to how shit the previous version was than how good the A3 is.

1/?

>>33147241
>SEALs, Marsoc and army units have all jumped ship to Glock.
And now, they'll be using the P320(eventually).

>>33145380
1911 is far from perfect.

While the general principle it operates on is pretty much the standard of automatic pistol world(with the difference being in some pistols being striker fired or DA/SA rather than SAO, but the mechanics haven't changed much), it just does a lot of things in a non-effective way, recoil spring being the most obvious example of this(the first red flag - it's not captive - which isn't a deal from any other perspective than ease of maintenance, but it shows that iterating on the same principle has brought some improvements).

>>33147249
cont.
>increased standard capacity
Oh boy, it finally has the same 17 round capacity that other wondernines have had since the '80s. Yay.

>Just as with the M9, they are supposed to keep the safety engaged and most will do so. So you're still training around the safety.
Sure but that's not an advantage for the M9A3, they both have to do it. It's dumb bullshit the Army insisted on. At least the civilian P320 doesn't come with the stupid thing standard, while the Beretta does.

>They will most likely fire in strings and they will fire under pressure
Which is why a consistent trigger is helpful. It's easier to get it down to muscle memory if you have to learn one trigger pull instead of two.

>the first trigger pull (which isn't bad on an M9) is just one of many,
Sure, but on a striker gun all those are the same.

>and they can benefit from the follow-up shots
Not really. A light trigger is great for a range or competition gun, but you don't necessarily want that in a duty pistol. Sure you should keep your finger out of the trigger guard, but it doesn't hurt if the gun is a little bit harder to negligently discharge.

>Again, the DA/SA was a military requirement in XM9 trial.
But not the XM17 trial. Because it's not the '80s anymore and handgun doctrine has evolved.

>Further, if you are drawing your pistol, unless you are in the middle of the firefight, you can take the quarter second to cock the hammer and go right to SA pull.
OK Clint Eastwood.

>I don't get it. Their guns are great.
Mediocre is how I'd put it. A resounding meh.

>They're just not great at selling them
They sold a shitload when they were state of the art in the '80s. They don't sell as many now because bulky metal frame DA/SA 9mms aren't popular anymore. A Glock is just as good, is more compact, and costs about half as much as an A3.

2/?

>>33143618
>crisp
>>33144280
>crisp
>>33143618
>crisp
>>33144684
>crisp

fuck off samefag shill

I've shot the p320 compact, the trigger is crisp as fuck. Nothing like the shitty plastic Glawk

>>33147318
>crisp
at it again
fuck off

>>33147249
>>33147249
Not blind, but a fan, but also own Glocks, Springfield 1911s, Ruger revolvers, etc.

You're dismissive of my opinion on many of the points, which is just a poor way to argue since anything you say that is opinion can also be dismissed.

For example, polymer frames are not objectively better. That's just your opinion. There are benefits to metal frames, such as increased durability, recoil management, and pistol balance.

Striker fire also has disadvantages, such as no second strike trigger pull (firing pin energy is tested for military guns, keeping an eye on light primer strikes), and the inherently heavier trigger pull, but I am not against striker fired.

With a DA/SA the hammer is carried down (opposed to a 1911) so the odds of getting debris between the hammer and the firing pin are minimal.

The open slide does let stuff in, but also lets stuff out. If you check the XM9 tests, the Beretta with an open slide was more reliable than several traditional full slides and it's performance was only ever matched, come close to, or slightly bettered by the P226, though the results were very close (obviously the Beretta won the contract).

It's okay to dismiss my personal preference, but the 92 is a very popular series of handguns and they all have the slide mounted safety. The PX4 is also very popular and has a slide mounted safety. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have no issue with a slide mounted safety. (The M9A3 safety levers are canted upwards if you're the kind of fag who thinks you will somehow accidentally engage the safety when racking the slide. In 10 years of use I have never done this)

As for your dismissal of the removable sights, tritium, beveled magazine, and magazines, I was just pointing out all the improvements over the A3 over the M9/A1. Doesn't matter what you think of them, they're still improvements.

>>33147295
cont.

>What really attracted me to the 92 was The Matrix
That explains a lot.

>Glock managed to capture so many contracts and it has almost nothing to do with the gun and everything to do with salesmanship
Yes, Glock has good marketing. But good marketing alone isn't enough to ensure the absolute market dominance that Glock has.

I don't really like Glocks. I think they're ugly and I'm not the biggest fan of the grip angle or the trigger. But the thing about them is, they're cheap for what you get, there's a shitload of aftermarket fixes for any problem you could possibly have, and they just work. A stock Glock isn't the gun to end all guns. But it hits the perfect balance of economical and reliable to be "good enough" for people who aren't gun autists like us. Which is the vast majority of the military.

>tons of people on this board, think that guns like the M9 are only popular because of the military
The military and Hollywood. It's a mediocre design that's dated and doesn't offer any real advantage over the much cheaper competition. Only reason to buy one is personal preference and that usually starts on a TV screen.

>Glock somehow is this magical gun that won everything on merit
No, Glock won everything by being incredibly cheap (particularly for government agencies) and also just good enough to be idiot-proof.

>the only reason why any civilian buys a Glock is because it's a cop gun
Utter bullshit. Most people who buy Glocks, in my experience, buy them as a cheap but durable and reliable carry gun that's really simple and has lots of support.

>Die Hard 2 made it sound nifty.
Nah, that was the Glock 7. It was a porcelain pistol from Germany that cost more than you make in a month. The Glock 17 is a plastic pistol from Austria that costs about what a retail fag makes in a week.

>>33147295
Also in regards to you saying that Glocks/striker fired guns are appearing more and more in competition, by your own admission later, light trigger pull isn't necessarily what you want in a duty gun.

Anyone going for accuracy in a competition is using a competition trigger, which is probably 3.5lbs for their Glocks.

It's fine if you don't like Beretta. But they're not mediocre. Their service history shows that. By dismissing them you just look foolish.

Great, you love Glocks or whatever polymer striker fired pistol you sleep with at night.

Who cares? You're here trying to shit all over a gun, not tout the benefits of another. I never said the P320 was a bad guy, I simply stated that just in terms of logistics and money, the Beretta M9A3 was the better choice.

The P320 won't be in use for years, the M9A3 could have been in use this year. The army is still taking deliveries of new M9s.

Keep stroking to whatever gets you off, man, but you're wrong about Beretta and you're wrong about the M9 series.

>>33147326
>You're dismissive of my opinion on many of the points
Because your opinion is stupid.

>anything you say that is opinion can also be dismissed
This is just a fact.

>For example, polymer frames are not objectively better. That's just your opinion.
They're better in every category that matters for a duty weapon. Cheaper, lighter and much less maintenance-intensive.

>increased durability
Polymer is durable enough, the added durability isn't necessary enough to balance out the increased weight. Plus a polymer frame costs a fraction as much and takes a fraction of the time to make, so you can easily just throw one out and slap a new one on if it breaks.

>recoil management, and pistol balance.
Helpful in competition, not all that useful in practice. It's much better for it to be lighter, because it's going to spend a lot more time in a holster than it will actually firing.

>Striker fire also has disadvantages, such as no second strike trigger pull
Modern ammunition has pretty much eliminated the need for this.

>the inherently heavier trigger pull
Arguably a feature in a duty gun, and when it's a negative, you can just toss in a competition trigger that will lighten it to your heart's content.

>With a DA/SA the hammer is carried down (opposed to a 1911) so the odds of getting debris between the hammer and the firing pin are minimal.
Unless you drop it before you have a chance to decock.

>The open slide does let stuff in, but also lets stuff out.
Too bad mud doesn't work that way.

>If you check the XM9 tests
A US government investigation said of the XM9 program, and I quote: "In summary, the 9-mm. program was not a good example of how to conduct an effective procurement".

It was marred by extremely small sample sizes, very low round counts and spotty recording of results. Basically none of it's conclusions can really be trusted unless independently verified.

>>33146352
>>33146378
You know, and there are more than just you two unless you're just posting the same shit all over this thread, but this meme where 'operators' just go out and buy whatever gun they want and use that is such fudd level bullshit.

>>33147267
Incorrect.

G19 and G22 are the vast majority of issued pistols across JSOC and the vast majority of pistols actually seeing combat. There are Beretta, HK, Sig, and 1911's running around as well, but they are the guns the units purchased and subsequently people choose to use them from time to time.

The main problem with this is that if you're the lone idiot using a Beretta, your can't interchange magazines with your buddies or with the other units you might work with. A few years ago you had one unit using a 1911, you had one unit running the Beretta AND the G22, you had one unit running the Sig, and you had 2 units running (additionally) the HK or something previously mentioned.

This issue is resolved.

Want to know why the Army chose the P320 and why Glock is likely proresting? The model for the Army has a safety, and that's the only reason it was chosen.

The P320 has a shit trigger, its sights are too high above your hand/grip. If they want to find a better pistol than the 92 (not hard) then great, but if they want to pretend the P320 is somehow better than a G19 at being anything other than a paperweight and welfare for the gun industry, they're fucking delusional.

/k/ needs ID's, this thread is shit.

>>33147412
http://weaponsman.com/?p=38475
>This does put the SOF Glock contracts at risk, for budgetary reasons. It would be very hard to quantify the superiority of the G19 over this pistol. Meanwhile, the SOF pistols come out of SOF specific money, Major Force Program (MFP) 11. MFP-11 is a finite amount; if SOF were to specify pistols that were a standard Big Green (Blue, Haze Gray, etc) NSN, the service would buy the pistols out of its general-purpose forces money, and that would leave the MFP-11 money for other SOF uses (other SOF-peculiar weapons, communications equipment, engineeer equipment, etc.).

Also:
>Want to know why the Army chose the P320 and why Glock is likely proresting? The model for the Army has a safety, and that's the only reason it was chosen.
Glocks' submission had a thumb safety, like every other gun submitted for evaluation. It was a requirement.

>>33147399
>the 92 is a very popular series of handguns
Not as much lately, no.

>The PX4 is also very popular
I think your definition of "very popular" is a bit optimistic.

>Doesn't matter what you think of them, they're still improvements
They're incredibly trivial improvements that have been standard on other pistols for years.

>Also in regards to you saying that Glocks/striker fired guns are appearing more and more in competition, by your own admission later, light trigger pull isn't necessarily what you want in a duty gun.
Which is why those competition guns have aftermarket triggers in them.

>But they're not mediocre. Their service history shows that.
No, their service history shows the exact opposite. That they ARE mediocre. Cops ditched them after only a couple decades. Now the US Military is ditching them. Compared to the service history of it's predecessor, the M1911, that's pathetic.

>By dismissing them you just look foolish.
Not as foolish as you look by blindly defending them.

>Great, you love Glocks
Obviously didn't read my post.

>I simply stated that just in terms of logistics and money, the Beretta M9A3 was the better choice.
Well you're wrong there too. The Army is looking long term on this one. That's why the contract dollar amount is so huge. Polymer striker guns are always going to be cheaper than old-fashioned milled metal ones. They have less parts too. The M9A3 would be a bandaid solution that would be cheap in the short term, maybe, but ultimately not solve the issue.

>The army is still taking deliveries of new M9s.
I find this claim extremely dubious.

>you're wrong about Beretta and you're wrong about the M9 series
No, I'm objective about it. I.e. not a fanboy.

Ah and here we have your counterpart, the blind Glock fanboy:
>>33147412
Now maybe we can get some Fudd who still thinks we should be using .45 M1911A1s and the circle of idiots will be complete.

>>33147460
Didn't know about the thumb safeties, it's interesting Glock was willing to do that for (literally) no mechanical reason.

RE: budget

The article says "Glocks won't fit into the budget", "SOF uses its own budget!" and "SOF will just allocate funds otherwise to use whatever they want". Even units like 75th RR who have to pretend they're still USASOC get 25K/mo for each Section/Company to spend on whatever they want. The gear won't change unless the boys want it. I can't see them wanting it.

>>33147460
>Glocks' submission had a thumb safety
Well, I guess we'll see that on ForgottenWeapons in a hundred years of so.
>Hi, I'm CyberIan 9000 and welcome to another hologram episode on ForgottenWeapons.com

>>33143283
t.glock owner

>>33142697
HAHAHAHAha what is there to protest get over it you whiny glock bitchboys you're dumb plastic brick muh glock w/ no safety pistol lost fair and square suck it up waaa waaa waaa all glock fangays are look worse because of this dumb usesless protest go away and stop crying

>>33143973
t. Superpog
t. Reserves
t. National Gut

Shouldn't have chose a homo MOS
>MUH CIVILIAN CAREEEEEEE
top kek

>fags being glock blocked

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>>33146352
>The whole point of the competition was for a modular pistol
I really don't understand this at all. Why is the military falling for the modular meme? We all know that they will never utilize the handgun's modular features, ever.

>>33148514
The Frames cost about the same as a magazine and are easy to swap, and they want full size combat pistols and CID concealed carry in one big purchase, plus smaller frames for tiny-handed people.

tl;dr you're an idiot.

>>33142697
Oh boy here we go

>>33143283
If the trigger is worse than an M&P (which is one of the worst triggers out there) then I am going to be beyond pissed and would rather keep the M9

>>33142697
Was glock even being considered? I thought they were written off for not having a safety or being lefty friendly.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't pick this bad boy, considering the army's ties to FN.

>>33148561
>plus smaller frames for tiny-handed people
Yeah, like they really give a shit and are going to dole out new frames to people based on the size of their hands...

You're honestly overestimating the capability and aptitude of the government command organization structure and supply lines. It's just going to be "You'll get what you get." But hey, they have a new toy to boast about that they'll never fully utilize.

Maybe actually try spending some time with government procurement and logistics.

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>>33148645
Pic

>>33148645
Glock added a safety, just like with the FBI contract.

That said, i'd be hesitant to take a gun where the safety was an afterthought like that, that's Slav-tier "we'll just add it later" design philosophy.

>>33148651
>implying the M17 isn't going to be bought as a system kit
>Implying they aren't going to buy the <$35 frames specifically because they're cheap en masse in a variety of flavors
>Implying you have any idea what you're talking about

>>33148857
>sigfag sigfagging
So sad! Many such cases.

>>33148651
Just like they only issue one size of uniform, or one size of gas mask right? The military has been trying to adjust this for years.

Higher ups realize that giving a "war fighter" every tool possible makes them more effective. While sidearms may be lower on the totem pole, there are ratings/MOS's that are required by Geneva Convention laws to only carry a side arm. If one cannot be effective with that side arm, they are ineffective as a whole. I could honestly care less who wins the contract because both sig and glock make good firearms. the p320 is being adopted by lots of federal and state governments which means they are doing something right.

the whole SOCOM thing is moot, they use what they want and have endless options depending on the mission.

>>33148885
>I'm retarded so I call names instead of arguing the point

Delicious Glockfag tears.

>>33148920
I don't even like Glocks, but modular frames are a meme.

>>33148929
Maybe if you have 400 different models to pick and choose from, not if you have to make a half-million unit buy of just one model.

>>33148857
>hello there, soldier, and welcome to the armory! what can this humble armorer get for you today? oh,one of the new m17 kits? you're going to love it, it's so much more comfy than those ratty old m9s we used to have, and it gives you soooo much room to accessorize! we've got frames in all sizes, from petite to plus, as well as a variety of colors to match any outfit! and don't worry about picking only one color; at the price we get these things, you can have a whole set! and if you procure yours today, we'll even bedazzle your holster for you, free of charge!

>>33148968
Nice try.

>Try these three, OK, you're a medium, that's on your assigned pistol, next!

>>33148929
They said that about the AR-15 too. And about polymer frames when the Glock was new. And about repeating rifles in 1860. And yet technology marches on. The Fudds will lose, Mr. Lebowski! The Fudds will always lose!

>>33144428
>not knowing that the government takes out another life insurance policy on each soldier to get their investment back.

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>>33149836

>>33149944
They call me a CONSPIRACY THEORIST, because I don't like 'em puttin CHEMICALS in the water that turn the FRICKIN FROG GAY!!

URGH!
URGH!
URGH!
CRAP!

>>33149968
Go spray some vinegar water at contrails.

>>33147326
Nothing wrong with the M9, but the S&W 59 was the most reliable pistol in the trials; the P226 and 92 didn't even finish the *required* round count for the trial, only the S&W did, with basically the same reliability as the P226 and 92

>>33147249
>Hammer fire is more complex, adds more parts, takes up more space in the frame, adds a point of failure in that mud can block the firing pin,
Most importantly, it's more expensive to manufacture

>>33147326
>Striker fire also has disadvantages, such as no second strike trigger pull (firing pin energy is tested for military guns, keeping an eye on light primer strikes), and the inherently heavier trigger pull, but I am not against striker fired.
It must be noted that the P320 is a DA striker with a 6.5lb trigger.

>>33143283
t. gaston

>>33147461
You're not worth having a discussion with. You use the same points as something that is both a positive and a negative. You mention guns being used in competition as a sign of quality then dismiss features as "useless other than in competition." Your argument over polymer (which I have nothing against) amounts to "It's good enough," without actually acknowledging metal frames are stronger.

You talk of the XM9 not being a good procurement test, but the MHS test was even less intense. The M9 won the first test. After objections it won the second test. After yet another objection it won a third test so resoundly the test was called off.

As for M9 procurement, there was an order for 100,000 placed in 2012 to be delivered over a span of time. 600,000 were fulfilled by 2014 and between then and 2019 the army is taking delivery of 18,000 additional M9s.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/7/29/us-army-orders-additional-beretta-m9-9-mm-pistols/

>>33150578
second strike DOES exist for striker-fired, in fact Taurus' pistols have it, or at least the PT709 and PT111 do

>>33150578
>>33151115

The P290 as well.

>>33149785
>And yet technology marches on.
The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>33153525
>he says, posting on a website via an electronic device

>>33153774
It can't be helped.

>>33142697

As an Austrian I can only laugh at how silly the pentagon is when making decisions.

>>33151115
Sure, but in general most striker guns do not. Most striker guns also need to have the trigger pulled before disassembly. Most striker guns do not have any safety other than the trigger mechanism and are more prone to NDs on the draw and holster than other guns, and leather holsters for striker guns aren't a great idea, nor is any carry situation when the trigger guard is not completely and securely enclosed.

I like striker fired guns. I like hammer fired guns. I fucking like all guns. But all guns have pros and cons. The vast majority of any discussion is going to come down to personal preference across almost any criteria.

>>33143561
> Trigger slightly better than a Glock
Now there is a low bar.

>>33143997
Probably thinks MSRP means anything with guns.

P320 was the only gun that meet the requirements.

Army is fucking up by buying P320s with manual safeties.

>>33142697
It comes in brown so you can't tell when it rusts, which it will do ASAP.

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>>33143179
sigs face when

>>33146325

What's that?

>>33156083
volcanic

>>33155088
>Army is fucking up by buying P320s with manual safeties.
Yeah, no. There is zero chance they'll ever adopt a pistol without with the rates officers ND even with a safety.

>>33156592
When I was in, people carried the M9 with the safety off. But that's probably because of the heavy DA pull.

They probably wanted a safety with a striker gun.

Fuck Sig racist guns!

#notmyarmygun

>>33143283
I own two glocks and a Sig P320 with a change kit so 1 and a half P320's and the trigger on the sig is far better than the factory trigger on the glock.

The thing with the sig is that if its uncomfortable, they make a ton of different frame sizes and widths that you can switch out in 45 seconds.

I prefer the glock for reliability (carry a 19 everyday), the sig is just kind of fun/neat because I can change calibers/size super fast.

>>33147235
because Marine Corps

>>33147399
>XM9 tests were poorly conducted

It's not like the Beretta won the contract twice. Once in the Air Force tests, then once again after Smith and Wesson and several other companies complained and then smoked all those pistols in the Army trials.

Oh wait I forgot you don't listen to historical results.

>>33150402
incorrect, Smith was only entered for the USAF trials. Where it subsequently lost to the M9. It was not re-entered for the Army trials.

>>33147461
>I find this claim extremely dubios

You do realize the M9A3 program was a request to update the TDP for the new Berettas that are still shipping right? Beretta even offered to convert existing M9's to A3 spec.

>>33143283

Wrong

Plasitc junk hahaha

>>33147318
>The shitty plastic glock.

Lmao what do you think the p320 is made of? Hell the plastic on the p320 is even shittier. You can scatch it with your fingernail. You just thing it's high quality because it has "sig" in the name you dumb fanboy.

Why there are soo many Glock fanboy?
DoD is more of an expert on firearm than you guys, and it selects p320
glock BTFOed

stop crying and deal with it fagg

>>33143707
I know for sure Glock bid lower. Glock's contract with the FBI is $50 per gun.

>>33159845
Bidding lower but still not meeting requirements won't get you the contract.

Sounds like a lot of people in this thread have a case of..... Sauer Grapes

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The M9A3 is much more aesthetic than the P320 MHS and as such would have been a much better officer status-signalling paperweight.

>>33161468
yeah alright, I chuckled heartily

>>33161484
>that fugly piece of eyetie pastanigger shit
>aesthetic
A Glock is better looking tbqh phamalam

>>33158028
no, it's not, and at least sig met the requirements for the contract
holy shit the glockfag tears are delicious.

>>33161484
>Still oversized and heavy for a 9
>Not available in MP Duty/CID Conceal sizes
>Slide-mount safety a shit
>No changeable grip sizes

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>>33161962
>No changeable grip sizes
Well that's just not true.

>>33148658
>i'd be hesitant to take a gun where the safety was an afterthought like that
You mean just like the P320?

>>33162119
You can make it bigger. Great.

>>33162169
>You mean just like the P320?
He didn't think that all the way through it would seem... It's also a pretty stupid statemant since none of us knows what the safety in the Glock or 320 actually does, so any judgement is pure guesswork.

>>33161962
I literally can't understand why people are so upset by the slide mounted safety. I feel like the only people who bring that up are people who never handled an M9.

I have literally only ever heard this from a handful of morons who already hate the M9. No one who actually shoots the 92 complains about. I have 10 years of time behind a 92 and have never once accidentally engaged the safety and the thought never even entered my mind. I didn't even know it was a thing people talked about.

Also size/weight are not always bad. They help with recoil management, sight radius, etc. The M9 is without a single doubt a better gun than you are a shooter. It will outperform you.

Plenty of people don't like small guns. Infantry doesn't need to conceal shit.

>>33163015
I had no issues with my issued one. Sure it was beat up from years of abuse, but it still functioned as expected. I didnt like how heavy it was, and thats the only reason I dont want to buy one.

That being said, I did buy a p320 and would use it over them M9 anyday assuming I had the same armory support I had with the M9.

>>33143283
Cockfanboy detected

>>33162937
The M9A3 has the slim vertec grip, which is significantly smaller than the M9A1/92FS grip. So it has a smaller grip that you can make larger, yes.

It's also funny people are talking about the P320 like it has some magical factory churning out custom grips for every handsize.

You get Small, Medium, or Large and you need to swap the whole frame to get it.

Whereas something like a PX4 has Small, Medium, or Large or replace a backstrap.

>>33163053
And that's 100% fine. I'm not here to argue with anyone over what they like or do not like. But the bulk of the thread has not been "I prefer X over Y" but "Y IS A PIECE OF SHIT" and quite simply I don't think, objectively, the M9/92FS is a piece of shit.

Objectively you can point to guns with poor fitting, poor accuracy, poor results in tests, etc, as being shitty, but the M9 won the XM9 trials, served police and military for 30 years, and has been used to win open pistol championships. It is objectively not shitty.

>>33163079
I agree with you. The gov made its decision for a reason. Contract awards are protested all the time, but are rarely reversed.

>>33163057
>It's also funny people are talking about the P320 like it has some magical factory churning out custom grips for every handsize.
>You get Small, Medium, or Large and you need to swap the whole frame to get it.
The frames are about the same price as the magazine, and are literally just a couple extra steps after you pull the slide off:
1: Pull takedown lever out
2: Pull FCG out

In fact, it makes cleaning easier as well.

Also, 4 sizes: Full (17 9mm), Carry (21), Compact (15), Subcompact(12).

>>33161854
>Exetershit selected due to ""modularity"" memes.

Meanwhole Socom, who actually have a miniscule chance of using their side arms in combat, all just dumped their sigs like a fat girlfriend.

>>33143654
This is actually false though. The only guys that even kinda use HK are DEVGRU, with the HK45. Even with that in mind, they almost exclusively use the G19 and some still carry their SIGs. Delta mostly runs around with tacticool G17s with RMRs and shit. I think a few people are using .40 meme caliber Glocks as well, but the fact remains that SOF uses Glocks almost exclusively these days.

>>33164384
SOCOM changes pistols every other week.

>>33164975
Do they?

>>33142697
Seems like the usual bruhaha that comes up with every large military contract. They always protest or sue over it no matter the company. Hell, the winning company probably actively encourages it since it delays when they have to make their orders and allows then to further tool up production.

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>>33167978
Seems like. SOCOM is a lot of different units across all four services, and what one Green Beret team needs isn't even the exact same as what another may need, much less what MARSOC or AF Pararescue needs.

>>33163094
It literally came down to cash and Congressional logrolling, don't kid yourself.

The P226 should've defeated that trash

>>33148655
I have an FNX, and tbqhwyfam, I'm strongly considering a p320 because better ergo, and it feels sturdier in my hand. I know that's subjective, but that's my personal opinion.

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>>33168445
>it feels sturdier in my hand
no surprise there

>>33148994
This. It'll be like an assembly line.
>here's your trigger; don't lose this, this IS your sidearm
>here are the three grip sizes; keep in mind, if your hands are woman-size, you're going to have to go with the shorter barrel, as well.
>ok! so you've got your trigger group, and you've decided on the medium grip, so you get the standard barrel/slide combo to go with that. Off you go, grunt.

>>33168475
>it'll be like an assembly line where they'll run out of small grip frames and the unit armorer will get dishonorably discharged for sexual harassment because he gave a girl a medium one instead

>>33143750
surplus m9s when?

>>33168577
Never.

>>33168577
Why would you want one anyway? Military M9s are beat to shit.