Marines to replace M4 with M27 IAR: report

LMGs are a meme anyway

>>33087559
Wait didn't they just adopt the M4?

>>33087559
>replace more than the M249
Wasn't the speculation from the beginning that the extent to which it would replace the M249 exaggerated because they wanted to bring in a new service rifle through the back door? They didn't seem to consider the open-bolt-automatic entries in the competition too seriously and they dropped the very high capacity magazine requirement quickly as well.

I'm down for a full-scale replacement. I am not a fan of 5.56 though. The M249 was really heavy, although it was a blast to shoot.

>>33087559

I'm skeptical whether or not this is worth the reduced capacity

>>33087559
This has been in the news for years and in the works for slightly less

Buddy of mine was briefed about them and shit a few years ago but since then I haven't heard shit about who they're being issued to aside from whoever was testing them in Marsoc.

>>33087559
someone explain this shit to me

Isnt the whole point of LMGs to lay down massive amounts of Suppressive fire? I can understand wanting to replace a fuck heavy LMG but. are they going to be issuing fucking Drum mags with this thing? If not, then what the fuck is the point? If they are not issuing higher cap mags, then why even bother replacing the M4?

>>33088768
That already happened years ago. Now they're going to replace the M4 too. Probably because of what >>33087988 said: it was a backdoor to have it replace the M4 completely.

>>33088794
>have it replace the M4 completely.
But why?

if they arent going to issue higher cap mags, then why waste the Time money and effort replacing the M4? Thats all this thing basically is, an M4 that fires from Open Bolt right? or am i wrong?. Like, i just dont get it.

>>33088807
the m27 use piston, unlike the DI m4.

>>33087559
marines are autistic and derided the most important squad level technological innovation of WW1, the Light Machine Gun.

>>33087775
They adopted the M4 because USMC M16A4s were very old.

>>33088728
>>33088768
>>33088807
I don't know if you guys get this, this preposal would replace the M4 with the M27.

M249s have already been partially replaced.

The reasoning is most likely this,

The M416 is an awesome weapon, and the M27 has some real advantages over the M4. (IMHO not many at all)

I think the main thing is, the Marines clearly want more automatic fire in a single squad, which the M27 lends itself well too, and the marines acknowledge that the M416 is a very quality weapon that is also accurate enough for semi automatic accurate shots.

I think it's an okay choice, however I would have gone with a similar direct impingement gun.

The LMT MARs comes to mind.

>>33088807
The M27 is not open bolt.
>>33088841
That's actually pretty irrelevant and there are actually many advantages to a piston system.

>>33088919
>there are many advantages to a piston system

I meant DI

>>33088807
>then why waste the Time money and effort replacing the M4?
HBAR I would think. Turns out rapid fire is more important than muh marksmanship.

Also because Marines tend to use hand me downs as part of their "fiscally responsible" culture, but that becomes kind of a big problem when things start to wear out.

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>>33087988
Also, M4/M16's are little over $600 or some shit.

>>33088919
>USMC M16A4's were very old
No. Some are starting to get there, I was issued a brand new one because the contract's still going. Literally removed that delicious, sticky icky packing grease from everything. Both M4's and M16's are still issued. Depends on how lucky you are. The 249's, however, are very fucking old.
>t. active duty from 2011 to 2016, lol pog

>>33088919
>the M27 is not open bolt
Partially wrong again. On full retard, first round is fired on closed bolt, rest is open. On semi auto, it's closed bolt.

>>33088707
Too bad the m249 isn't going anywhere.
>Marines officially adopted the M27 years ago
>actually have more M249's in inventory now than they did when they adopted the M27
>machine gunner role has expanded both in manpower numbers and scope

>>33088768
>Someone explain this shit to me
Okay, here goes.
>Marines want new service rifle
>congress tells them no
>they adopt the M27 to "replace" the M249
>they don't actually replace the M249 and instead issue the M27 to riflemen
>this is a backdoor workaround to Congress telling them no
>are they going to be issuing fucking drum mags with this thing?
30rd gen3 Pmags. They dropped the extended-capacity-magazines requirement in like week 1 of the trials, ostensibly because they all sucked (this is true) but in reality because they were looking for a 1:1 M4 replacement (they never even tested half the extended capacity mags).

>>33088919
>because USMC M16A4s were very old
That's literally impossible, the M16A4 didn't even exist until 1998, meaning the absolute oldest rifles are only 19.

>M249's have already been partially replaced
No the fuck they haven't. The Marines have more M249's now than they have at any other point in history despite downsizing. Their role has EXPANDED.

>>33088974
The IAR action switching system was not adopted for the final M27. The current one is just a variant of the HK416.

>pog

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>>33089029
Neat to know.

>fixed plains, gonna get sweet cancer, deal with it

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>>33088974
>On full retard, first round is fired on closed bolt, rest is open. On semi auto, it's closed bolt.
Literally no. That requirement was dropped. The M27 is closed-bolt-only.
>https://www.scribd.com/document/66412531/HK-M27-IAR
Pic related is the official info flyer released by HK.

>>33089015
I don't think you understand what even a year in military service can do to a rifle.

19 years old is extremely old in terms of rifles issued since then.

>>33088974
No the M27 is absolutely a closed bolt rifle lmao

I know you might have been issued a new one, but the reality is that the M16A4 just isn't what the bureaucrats want. New service rifles are cool as fuck, and the Marines have some cash to burn apparently.

IMO the M27 isn't the right rifle, I'd love to see KAC or LMT DI guns with new and improved BCGs and ambi controls with an MLOK or Keymod rail, and a sub 700RPM full auto function, with 18" medium profile barrels.

>>33089064
FN HAMR with 18" barrel in bullpup configuration would be neat.

>>33089094
The HAMR is sorta a meme and I can definitely see the open bolt feature becoming a liability. Plus it's an 11 pound fucking rifle, that's far too heavy

>>33089064
>I don't think you understand what even a year in military service can do to a rifle
Considering I did 10.5 years in the military, yes I do.
>19 years old is extremely old in terms of rifles issued since then
Well good thing the vast majority are less than 10 years old huh.
Also, 19 years is fucking nothing. Most US service rifles are pushing 30.
>but the reality is that the M16A4 just isn't what the bureaucrats want
No shit. The bureaucrats want votes, and the Marines want light, handy rifles. Which makes the M4 CQBR the clear winner.
>new service rifles are cool as fuck
On the grand scheme of things, new service rifles fall somewhere below "nobody fucking cares" (and possibly not even above "nobody fucking even knows" judging by the number of people who *still* think the IAR is open bolt on auto) when compared to new nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and 3 concurrent models of "stealth" jets.
>and the Marines have some cash to burn apparently
Whoever greenlighted the adoption of the M27 should be prosecuted under the Fraud, Waste, and Abuse clause because they're LITERALLY burning that money.
>IMO...sub 700RPM full auto function
Great of you to tell us outright that your opinion is uninformed and should be discarded.
>18" medium profile barrels
Yes, because in the age of either doing CQB or humping through inhospitable mountains, tacking an extra 3 pounds of barrel to the service rifle for a measly 90fps MV gain is SUCH A GOOD IDEA.

Go away neverserved, your opinions are literal shit.

>>33089131
Only 1.8lbs heavier than the M27 (sans optic) m8.

>>33089131
>Plus it's an 11 pound fucking rifle
That's why its called HAMR.

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>>33089094
Pic related

plus

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>>33089174
Pic related

Equals....

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>>33089179

>>33089094
>bullpup
>in a suppressing fire role
I like having skin on my cheek thank you

>>33089135
>my military service invalidates all other opinions

>19 years is fucking nothing, most are 30 years old

Which is a situation that is absolutely unacceptable, there's no reason at all that our guys should have rifles older than they are. No memes here, it's an intolerable situation. I would pay an extra dollar in my income tax to make sure you guys have new rifles.

>The marines want light, handy rifles
Right, which is why I suggested a light, handy rifle.

I'm also well aware that in the grand scheme of things, service rifles are not generally thought of as important, but I'd make the argument that in the coming irregular warfare style conflicts, they're actually a whole lot more important to battlefield outcomes than any 70 ton tank or stealth aircraft is going to be.

Now in any conventional war obviously vehicals are more important by a long shot.

>Whoever greenlighted the M27 should be hung

I actually disagree, if it's true that they didn't actually rotate M249s out, then getting new rifles in the hands of Marines isn't a bad idea. Besides, the Marines that were issued them like them, so who the fuck cares?

Now if they actually did push 249s away then yeah I have an issue with that.

There's literally no reason to have an ROF of more than 700 RPM, original M16s were supposed to be around this as it's pretty much optimal.

>yeah just give everyone a Mk18

Okay, confirmed for retard.

>>33089209
I for one have heard tons of stories of bullpups catastrophically failing and maiming their user
wait no I haven't

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>>33089209
>2 hot 4 face
use full helmets lmao

>>33089234
It's a heat issue not a kaboom one

>>33089245
who the fuck even use these and enjoy your lack of a proper cheekweld

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>still not a left side charging/top charging hybrid
>still no folding stock
>still stuck on the 5.56 meme

>>33089226
>Which is a situation that is absolutely unacceptable, there's no reason at all that our guys should have rifles older than they are. No memes here, it's an intolerable situation. I would pay an extra dollar in my income tax to make sure you guys have new rifles.
They could easily just cancel a single F-35 unit and have enough money to buy every single serviceman a brand new rifle [design] several times over.

:^)

>>33089226
>it's an intolerable situation because I say so
lolokay, shit works just fine until it's so clapped out it stops working. In some cases this takes 5 years, in others it takes 75 years (one of our M2 receivers was dated 1945). Shit can be replaced individually as it wears out, there is absolutely no reason to replace an entire family of perfectly serviceable designs simply because the oldest examples of it are wearing out. There is LITERALLY ZERO PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENT from the newer designs compared to a factory-new M4 or M249, and most of them weigh more. Moreover, we can still get factory new M4's and M249's, the contracts haven't even expired yet.
>right, which is why I suggested a light, handy rifle
No, you suggested a rifle that weighs literally twice what an M4 does.
>I disagree that anybody should be held responsible for defrauding the government and lying under oath to congress
Then you're flat fucking retarded.
>then getting new rifles in the hands of Marines isn't a bad idea
It should've been the M4's they were legally required to adopt instead of lying to Congress and defrauding the government out of literally billions of dollars. It is the better rifle for the role it is being used in. Besides, they could've gotten literally 7x more rifles for the same money if they'd avoided the M27.

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>the stoner 63 was never adopted by the Marines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV6WHA2efm4

>>33089326
>Besides, the Marines that were issued them like them, so who the fuck cares?
Congress, who was lied to. All the other generals, who will share the burden of one of their own making them look bad by perjuring himself under oath in front of Congress. The taxpayers, who have to cough up the ~7 billion dollars to pay for the IAR program. Me, because gullible idiots like you are 100% okay with the public face of the government to the world lying, cheating, and stealing.
>there's literally no reason to have an ROF of more than 700RPM
Except for all the reasons to have a ROF of around 850RPM, which has been scientifically proven as optimal by multiple countries multiple times over 50 years of testing. Such as being able to put multiple consecutive rounds into moving vehicles going faster than 10mph.
>CQBR=mk18, you're a retard if you think otherwise
nigger literally what. The CQBR is simply a factory FN 10.3" upper and is supplied with standard M4 handguards and detachable carry handle. And it's supplied exclusively as a retrofit upper, not a complete rifle. Hence the "close quarters battle RECEIVER and not RIFLE.
The mk18 uses exactly zero FN parts, is supplied with a DD handguard, has a modified SOCOM-profile barrel and BCG, contains an "aftermarket" trigger (Geissele SSF), and is built solely by NSWC-Crane. They superficially resemble each other (when assembled) and that's it.

>>33089326
New MLOK or Keymod rails allow for rifles with longer barrels to come in at the same weight as 14.5 M4s with Quadrails.

The Canadians are already doing this m8 it's not rocket science, we could also move off the M4 profile barrel for one with a more uniform thickness and keep a medium profile throughout the entire barrel for the same weight.

You're getting really heated over something you previously stated wasn't a big deal.

And no, there are advantages to having M27s, it's a more accurate rifle than the M4, it's better in fully automatic, if you even have a full auto M4 and not a 3 round burst abortion and I'm pretty sure the M27 is more reliable because of Bolt upgrades not (yet) present on .Mil AR15s.

Again, adopting an LMT or KAC direct impingement gun that is literally in every way objectively better than an M4 would be the better route if they're hellbent on new rifles.

>>33089349
>CQBR=mk18, you're a retard if you think otherwise
nigger literally what. The CQBR is simply a factory FN 10.3" upper and is supplied with standard M4 handguards and detachable carry handle. And it's supplied exclusively as a retrofit upper, not a complete rifle. Hence the "close quarters battle RECEIVER and not RIFLE.
The mk18 uses exactly zero FN parts, is supplied with a DD handguard, has a modified SOCOM-profile barrel and BCG, contains an "aftermarket" trigger (Geissele SSF), and is built solely by NSWC-Crane. They superficially resemble each other (when assembled) and that's it.


Was it autism?

>>33089349
>>33089326
You know what, just like 90% of other Marines, your inability to listen is going to cause another poor USMC equipment decision.

You have the opportunity RIGHT NOW, to demand objective improvements over the current M4.

Things like,

>Better Gas Systems
>Better Triggers
>Better BCGs and Bolts
>Better barrel profiles
>Better Rails
>Free Floated Rails
>Possibly even Ambi controls on a KAC or LMT MARs lower
You guys are obviously considering adopting a new rifle for whatever reason, and improving the M4 isn't a bad thing.

You could even take existing M4 receivers and do the things I just listed.

The M27 isn't some massive scheme, the goal was clearly to move in a replacement to the M4.

>>33089334
See, i dont understand why, i mean, look at that mother fucker.


Like, just fucking kill me.

>>33089451
you forgot
>side charging
>folding stock

>>33089462
>side charging

Get out.

>folding stock
Not without some massive modifications to the AR bolt, which aren't necessary.

>>33089398
>New MLOK or Keymod rails allow for rifles with longer barrels to come in at the same weight as 14.5 M4s with Quadrails.
And M4's with keymod or mlok handguards would be even lighter yet. Weight is the single most important factor of an infantry rifle behind "it shoots bullets".
>we could also move off the M4 profile barrel for one with a more uniform thickness and keep a medium profile throughout the entire barrel for the same weight.
Yes, we could and we should. That doesn't require buying an entirely new family of rifles for billions of dollars though.
>The Canadians are already doing this m8 it's not rocket science
It apparently is to the Marines. And oh look, the canucks doing it to M4's and not some snowflake HK rifle that costs more than a platoon's worth of M4's while doing literally nothing better.
>you're getting pretty heated over something you previously stated wasn't a big deal
Dunno who you think I am, I've been saying all along this is a huge deal because of how disingenuous and wasteful it is.
>and no, there are advantages to having M27s, it's a more accurate rifle than the M4, it's better in fully automatic, if you even have a full auto M4 and not a 3 round burst abortion
It's only more accurate because it's only ever been tested with more accurate ammo (m855a1). And even then, that's negligible when compared to M855 in an M4 and still worse than M855A1 in an M4. If you're worried about burst, buy M4A1's, they cost the same.
>and I'm pretty sure the M27 is more reliable because of Bolt upgrades not (yet) present on .Mil AR15s
Nope, even in testing in "ideal" conditions it suffered more stoppages than an off-the-shelf M4. And should any of these bolt "upgrades" prove to actually be upgrades, there's literally nothing stopping them from being applied to existing M4's.
>adopting an LMT or KAC direct impingement gun that is literally in every way objectively better...
Except they weigh several pounds more.

>>33089451
>better gas systems
The M27's gas system is actually demonstrably worse than the M4's from every point of view: Reliability, recoil, longevity, accuracy.
>better triggers
The M27 has a standard milspec trigger in it, it's 100% identical in feel to an M4. Both take the same aftermarket triggers.
>better BCG's and bolts
Jury's still out on this one, and all of the supposed "upgrades" to the BCG and bolt can be applied to an M4.
>better barrel profiles
The M27 does have a better barrel profile, but this is literally nothing that can't be retrofitted to existing M4's.
>better rails
Nigger do you not understand the idea behind a MIL-STD? They're made to a standard, they are identical.
>free floated rails
Nothing that cannot be done to an M4 for cheaper
>possibly even ambi controls
Nothing that cannot be done to an M4 for cheaper

>>33089499
I wasn't referring to the M27 with any of that.

Again, the M27 is a pretty poor choice for a standard rifle

>>33087575
this

mount it in a vehicle or neck yourself

>>33089508
Ah. Well, you did a pretty shit job of articulating that when you jumped in the middle of an argument over the M27.

>>33089499
>The M27's gas system is actually demonstrably worse than the M4's from every point of view: Reliability, recoil, longevity, accuracy.
So why do special forces love the 416?

>>33089514
What's wrong with a bipod?

>>33089523
They don't, as far as I've seen.

Ever notice how the only pics you see of SOF using 416's are staged and posed propaganda, and the pics of them actually out on mission they're using either SCAR17s or mk18s with nothing in the middle?

What is the fucking point? Why drop the M4 to buy a knockoff M4 that uses incompatible parts? Is it because they're snowflakes? What advantages does this have over an M4?

An m4 weighs 6.36lb empty, the m27 weighs 7.9. The m16a1 weighed 6.75lb bare and had a longer barrel and sights. Once you add a scope to this rifle it will be at least 10lb once you add a scope and ammo. If you thow on the sling, bipod, and foregrip you'll be at least at 11. For what gain?

Every day we stray further from the light of Stoner.

>>33089499
What I mean by better rails is a move to slimmer designs like MLOK or Keymod.

And yeah, all of these changes would be in armory modifications to existing M4s or a stipulation that new rifles must be delivered to the new standard, essentially creating an M4A2(or whatever comes next if that already exists)

Basically what I'm advocating is a modification to the M4 to eventually replace the M4 if they so desire.

It would be a

>direct impingement
>mid length gas
>16"-18" barrel gun depending on what the marines decide on
>come with a uniform profile barrel
>come with a free floated, MLOK hand guard
>new rifles would come with fully ambi lowers
>would come with the SR15 bolt or LMT enhanced bolt
>would have a more tame ROF due too the less violent gas system
>fully automatic fire instead of burst


Call them M4A2s and call conversion guns that don't have Ambi lowers M4A3s.

I think this would be problem solved, and cheaper than the M27

>>33089575
Oh and instead of a 3 MOA accuracy requirement with ball ammo, tighten this to a 2 MOA requirement, which should be easy due to the better harmonics from free floating and keeping a uniform barrel profile

>>33089564
>is it because they're snowflakes?
That and they're mad at Congress because they did something stupid years ago (actively refusing to adopt the M4 at the same time the Army did because "hurr riflemen, hurr 500m aimed fire") and Congress called them on it (not giving them the funding to adopt the M4 years later in the middle of the second worst recession in the history of the nation).
>what advantages does this have over an M4?
Auto FCG instead of burst. This is literally the ONLY advantage.

Also, a fully kitted out M27 (KAC micro rear, Trij SDO/TA33, Harris S-BRM bipod on Larue QD, KAC VFG, BFG sling, Magpul gen3 mags with 30rds of M855A1) weighs 12.6lbs loaded.

Yes, they have both a bipod and a VFG on the rifle at the same time.

It's easier to backdoor a piston AR past all the lobbyists who rely on AR and AR accessories.

Even the director of the SCAR program said that there was a clear backlash against his rifle for being different at all levels.

>>33089604
I still want to know why the Marines are a separate service.

I mean logically, I already understand the politics behind it.

ITT buttmad assholes who cannot accept the fact that their little DI piece of shit has been surpassed by a clearly better construction.

If the marines insist on switching to a shorter barrel (as they have with the M4) then I would rather see it be a piston gun. At least they won't have bolt failures every 7k rounds now.

>>33089633
Because soldiers are soldiers but Marines are Marines!

>>33089668
You're right. Instead they have to replace their buffer tubes every 3k rounds now.

>>33089633
Its just a hold over from they days back when they deployed from ships.

There is no real reason for them to be separate from the Army anymore.

>>33089674
ANYTHING LESS THAN A RIFLE LENGTH GAS SYSTEM IS AN ABOMINATION IN THE EYES OF STONER!

REPENT AND MAY STONERS LIGHT SHINE UPON YOU AGAIN HEATHEN!

>>33089174
>>33089179
>>33089197
kek

>>33089668
>M4
>bolt failures every 7k rounds now
whaa?

I was issued an M4. I shot several times more than 7k rounds, as did everyone else in my entire battalion, every year. Nobody EVER had a bolt fail in any way.

If the Marines are having bolt failures in their M4's it's not the fault of the rifle, it's because they're Marines, and the same will happen to literally anything you put in their hands.

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>>33087559
Call me crazy, but what if we made a lighter version of the M249, and gave it to every single soldier?

>>33089679
>back when they deployed from ships
They deploy from ships today. It's kinda what the branch is for. You are probably not going to believe this, but there's Marines RIGHT NOW sitting in ARGs wherever the fuck they go on cruise, waiting around bored out of their minds until they cruise back to port or actually get told to do something. Again, this is their purpose.

>>33087559
I know the m27 has a bayonet lug, but does a bayonet actually fit? Every 16 inch ar i have seen can't properly mount a bayonet.

>>33089776
mid-length gas is the reason why

>>33088919
>M416
git the fuck out

>>33087559

former Infantryman here (true with probably many people on this board)

The whole point of the 249 is that it's a high casualty producing weapon with suppressive capability thanks to it's sustained fire. They're not useful in every situation, which is why most of the platoon are regular rifleman or grenadiers... but when you're innaraid, kicking doors, and taking fire from an adjacent building, you're glad to have that 249 and those 203s hitting the enemy position while you wait for CAS.

It only works because it's belt fed and has quick barrel change. The M27 has neither. It's essentially a full auto M4. It's light weight will make it much more difficult to provide accurate automatic fire. It isn't belt fed, so it's nearly useless for all the things you would use a SAW for, and good luck to you if it's overheated, because you're not going to be changing out the barrel.

Replacing the 249 with this thing is straight up dumb. It completely lacks sustained fire capability. Swapping M249 with M27 completely removes any and all advantages of having an automatic rifleman in your fire team.

>>33089788
I know why 16 inchers can't mount one. I was asking if the m27 can mount one.

>>33089791

now as far as replacing the M4 with the M27... it seems like a waist of money. Infantryman were, once upon a time, all given lightweight rifles capable of fully auto fire...and you know what? They found out it sucked. You can't hit shit with full auto beyond the distance of a sneeze unless you have a stable, dedicated weapon system.

They moved away from that and switched to the silly "three round burst" fire. And guess what? Anyone that's been down range and seen a little action will tell you that it's fucking useless. Accurate, semi-automatic fire is simply the best choice for a rifleman. In basic/boot they drill it into your head that the 3 round burst should never be used, because it's stupid, a waste of ammo, and that one, well aimed, well timed shot is always better. When rifleman need to engage in suppressive fire (along with the automatic rifleman) the only way they can provide any sort of sustained fire is by using medium-pace semi auto shots, thanks to the limited magazine capacity of the standard rifle.

The M27 gives a full auto function that we don't need, and extra inch and a half of barrel length that we don't want, and a piston system we didn't ask for.

DI works fine guys. It also reduces recoil and cuts weight by a few ounces. If you have problems with DI it's because you clean your rifle or your weapon is complete shit. The only guys in my unit that had issues with their M4s were all either shitbags that never properly cleaned/maintained their weapon, or the occasional parts failure due to 10s of thousands of rounds being fired through it since the last major parts change 10 years ago.

>>33089879
Full auto capability is nice to have though. I'd sure like it if i were clearing houses or something. I would think that most of the time the marines would keep it semi and would switch to auto for suppresion or cqb.

>>33089950

Clearing houses is cqb you tard, and the last thing you want is to crack off with full auto in close quarters, with your buddies all around you, people moving around, etc. etc.

SWAT does it because they're full on retard most of the time, but infantryman (who've kicked more doors in a week than a SWAT guy's entire career) will tell you that accurate, semi-auto fire, on target, is much, much better.

that's why the automatic rifleman drops back and watches six while we breech, because you don't want him in there BBRRRRTT while you try to clear a room.

As far a suppression, as I already explained, it's not effective to use full auto unless you can sustain it. A 30 round mag is only going to be useful for suppression with medium-pace, timed out semi-auto shots.

I promise you, this isn't just my opinion. Most guys with actual downrange experience will tell you the same.

>>33089980

>Clearing houses is cqb you tard

I misread what you wrote (like a tard) and then called you a tard. My bad. Disregard, I sucks cocks.

>>33089990
Well at least you have the decentcy to apologise when you make a bad play. As for your actual point, it makes sense. I am just a guy who only uses his guns to play pew pew at the range so I don't really know what happens when doors get busted. Getting an actual explination why my statement is incorrect rather than "Hur ur a dumbass" is much appreciated.

>>33089980
>because you don't want him in there BBRRRRTT
Only because Marines are complete retards on average.

SWAT uses "full retard" because they are disciplined enough to accurately put quick bursts on target. Those bursts will be far more likely to immediately incapacitate a threat compared to having to pop-pop them slowly, so they can move on to the next threat more quickly. Declaring a full auto setting on the selector as useless even in CQB is just plain stupid.

Marines are taking "Every Marine is a rifleman" to the extreme if they are replacing all their LMGs with DMRs.

WHY does everyone love piston Ars so much what the fuck
is the US army going to be the only people on earth with real Ars in the next 5 years this is such bullshit!!!

>>33087559
Guess I'm picking up an MR556 after all.

>>33088768
The point was for them to get their rifles one way or another. LMGs aren't necessary in many settings where suppressive fire might be supplemental, so having someone carry around that shit is somewhat of a waste. If anything, this could serve as a US equivalent of the Russian RPK they serve alongside their AKs. Semi-suppressive/lmg role with the capability of sharing magazines and ammunition with other troops.

Suppressive fire also depends on doctrine. In some Russian units, they consider 1 round per every .5 seconds to be "suppressive" in nature, especially with their RPKs, which leads gunners to use them as semi-automatic. In the middle east, they somehow found or made bolts that were heavier than standard PKM bolts, and slowed the rate of fire intentionally. At least that's what rumors about their machine gun doctrine says. Ammo conservation in many countries that aren't the US is a real thing. If you want POV videos of terrorists in the middle east, you see them in close combat shooting each other. POV videos of US troops usually end up being them shooting in seemingly random directions with no visual on enemy combatants, spraying and praying with loads of m240 or m249 fire.

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>>33090186
AR style direct impingement rifle, hot gas from every round is directed straight into the internals of the gun, in order to cycle the weapon. It's a system that burns through lube and increases wear on parts.

A gas piston rifle uses that gas to push a rod in order to cycle the weapon. No gas gets into the internals and there is less wear. It's simply a better, more modern system and that's why it's being adopted as military technology advances.

>>33090231
Are you being retarded on purpose?

>>33090231
you just poorly described the two systems and just made up a fake reason why one is better than the other

>"more modern system"
LOL

>>33090235
He's right though, every new rifle that is introduced as the next big thing has a pistol system, not DI. DI is fine, but it has flaws. Piston systems have flaws too, but when looking at building a reliable new weapons platform, pistons are king.

Personally, I love DI. It's reliable enough in modern ARs to not be a problem. However, one has to admit that in the harsh conditions of third world countries, with jungle, desert, muddy, and other harsh habitats on firearms, DI is a little unreliable. You can watch any stress test and watch an AR-15 fly through it and shit on almost everything else. But when it comes down to weeks of usage in harsh conditions without complete breakdown and cleaning, DI cannot keep up with many newer piston rifles.

Just the way the world works bro. There's no real benefit to replacing every AR with a piston rifle, especially when we have so many stockpiled.. But that doesn't mean new and advancing rifles that are under R&D by the military shouldn't have the better of the two options.

>>33090254
what the fuck are you talking about dude?
you severely misunderstand both stoner gas expansion and short stroke piston rifles

>>33090261
Please explain in what way I misunderstand DI and short stroke rifles. Or piston rifles in general. Or rifles in general.

I think you severely misunderstand the reason almost every new rifle under R&D by the military is NOT DI.

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>>33090243
No, it was a real reason and it wasn't that. The M4 burns through lubricant and needs to be lubed every day. A HK 416 will keep on trucking for ages before it needs lube.

>>33090243
>>33090261
>/arg/ fanboys
You two need to let go. DI isn't shit, but there are clearly better and more reliable options.

short stroke piston is fundamentally less accurate, more heavy, more parts and questionably more reliable in some situations

>>33090320
>fundamentally less accurate
Bullshit
>more heavy, more parts
Yes, that's obvious
>more reliable in most situations
Fixed

>>33090186
Because people fucking love ARs and AR handling, but they either had reliability issues or believe there are reliability issues so they're trying to inject 'AK reliability' into the AR.

>>33090347
ak is not reliable for the same reason you think a short stroke ar is

>>33090270
>I think you severely misunderstand the reason almost every new rifle under R&D by the military is NOT DI.
Because the 53 years of minor improvements and nothing has come out justifying replacing the M16 design. If you're going to market a new rifle to the military it has to actually do or at least appear to do things differently than the weapon it's replacing.

Also I doubt the piston vs. DI debate matters for US military R&D when the LSAT program exists. The SCAR and HK416 are leftovers of the SCAR and XM8 programs both from private companies, not exactly cutting edge military R&D at this point.

>>33090350
I didn't say it was and I don't think that, I was explain why other people put pistons in ARs

>>33090368
which is why I put 'AK reliability' in quotes

>>33090363
Nothing has come out of replacing the m16/m4 because of political payoffs and corruption. The military will not stop complaining about the rifles they have in service, and a vast majority are dissatisfied with their service weapons for a reason. It didn't need replacing this second, but we should be looking at non-di rifles as our current stockpile ages out.

>>33090391
>Nothing has come out of replacing the m16/m4 because of political payoffs and corruption.

Colt's monopoly has been over for a long time and the same company that manufacturers our M4s also makes rifles in direct competition to the M4.

If DI is so shit then it's kind of weird that the British military adopted 2 DI rifles in the past decade, one being the C8 and the other being an LMT in 308. The latter New Zealand also adopted.

>we should be looking at non-di rifles as our current stockpile ages out.
According to you.

>>33090061

SWAT does it due to limited training and a lack of experience. They raid the wrong houses, shoot the wrong people, all the fucking time. An infantryman kicks more doors in one day than a SWAT fag does his entire career. Full auto in cqb is retarded. You wouldn't know because you've never kicked a door in your life.

>>33090231

>straight into the internals
yes. straight into internals designed to receive said gas.
>burns through lube
where did you come up with that? read it on /k/ somewhere? because you sure as hell have never actually USED a DI gun if you think it "burns through lube"
>increases wear on parts
no it doesn't. in fact, it has few moving parts than a piston system, which lightens recoil and arguably makes some parts last longer.
>to push a rod
that part you got right
>no gas gets into the internals
other than the piston, which is internal, and all the gas that ends up in the action anyway.... you have cleaned one before.... right? where do you think all that black stuff comes from? gas.
>it's simply better
debatable in every sense of the word
>more modern
exactly the opposite of correct. 5 seconds of google will fix your shit
>that's why it's being adopted
not it isn't
>as military technology advances
lol he thinks the marines are on the front lines of military advancement hahahahahahahahahahaha

>>33090254
>>33090307

have any of you fuckers been downrange? I have, and my rifle worked fine. Only guys what had problems were shitbags that never cleaned their weapons, or if they had a rifle that had been abused by the shitbag before him.

>>33089514
1-800-No-Serve

Why? There's 240s, 50 cals, and mark 19's.

t. SAW gunner who did mount his m249 on an MRAP, but only because we were short on 240's

>>33089564
>Why drop the M4 to buy a knockoff M4 that uses incompatible parts?

because the military is nothing but a money pit for weapons manufacturers who bribe all the top brass to adopt their shit.

>>33090491
Not him, but do you have any idea of much variance there is between competencies of SWAT teams? I can promise you that some of the larger state teams would walk all over a typical marine rifle squad in a shoot house simply because that's the majority of their job. For example the LAPD guys are practically a national response unit with their level of funding and training.You can repeat your line about muhreenz kicking in more doors in a day v. life of a swat cop again for the third time if it soothes your angry asshole tho.


You also sound like boot fuck when you measure reliability of info on a Kenyan classical art site in how many doors anon may or may not have kicked down

t. Ex debbildag

>>33089029
Did they fix the cyclic rate? Have read some armorer's reports that said the 416 is generally overgassed and cycles too damn fast for its own good.

>>33090599
Having a clip fed full auto replace a LMG is retarded in the first place.

>>33090630
>clip

>>33089479
I have no real investment in this argument other than correcting this.

> weigh several pounds more

Knight's rifle weighs like 6.5lbs unloaded with a 16 inch barrel, which is literally exactly what an M4A1 weighs if I'm not mistaken.

>>33089564
Have read up on the m27? It's very accurate.

>>33090675
>2017
>clip meme

Get over it fag.

>>33089744
I mean, the SAW Para is one of em. Then there's this company who made the MGA SAW K but 5.56 and a 9" barrel is not ideal for that. Maybe a 16" barrel can work with the shorten 10 lb package

>>33090734
fuck off newfag

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>>33090747
Nice meme baby boy. Been here as long as you've been alive.

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Anyone know if Crewmen are getting the 416 or are they sticking with M4's?

>>33090760
nice try kid because you'd be sperging out over >clip if you weren't some redditard newfag

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>>33090794
Who's the one spouting newfag? That's classic newfag. You're only convincing yourself. But proceed Sir, I'm your huckleberry.

>>33090808
definitely the one who unironically uses incorrect firearm terminology, and ain't no daisy at all

>>33090549

In a full auto M16 or M4 its sensible to replace the bolt, extractor, ejector (all critical parts exposed to high temperatures) at 10,000 rounds, because of annealing or risk of same. This is well understood. I speculate the Marines may have decided they had had enough parts breakage and wanted a "big round count" gun. As per >>33088999
, they might secretly or not wanted a big round count gun in the shape of a rifle.

>>33090831
So you've seen tombstone. Dude for real, I've been on 4chan since 2005. Maybe 2004 but I was drinking a lot back then. Never been to reddit. I know they are called magazines. I slipped and called them clips. Can we drop it?

Btw I was in the military, Infantry, we called them clips. It's just using old timer lingo.

Buddy I work with is in Afghanistan and he was the squad's machine gunner (I don't know the correct terminology.) he told me about halfway through that deployment he got issued an iar. Everyone apparently loved it,especially how accurate and easy to clean it was (guys we're going to DM school and training with it). He's told me that the idea they were being fed was that its purpose was to serve a much more accurate suppressive role then just spraying rounds, I don't think they realized they were just trying to shoehorn a new rifle in...

To the uneducated folks, this just looks like any other AR.

What makes this rifle different from the M4?

Now this is some advanced autism

>>33089135
>they're LITERALLY burning that money
*sigh*

>>33090719
The specific model of SR15 that KAC tried foisting on the military weighed 7.5lbs unloaded with a 14.5" heavy profile barrel. KAC makes so many different submodels of the same SR15 though that I fully believe you.

>>33090537
>t. neverserved

>>33090420
>cites two examples of brits adopting di rifles as proof of DI having any future in the US military
L O fucking L.

You've never served I see.

>>33090989
nevuh have to clen it

>>33090537
Both the posts you replied to just argued that DI is fine at the range, and even in short term stress tests. Then you say your rifle works fine in optional conditions down range.

You're a clown if you cannot read what you replied to. Like saying "hurr you never drove my engine is fine bro" when you have a new car and we're talking about long term abuse on more reliable motors you know nothing about.

>>33090989
because it's Heckler & Koch®, and civilians aren't getting it, No Compromise™

>>33089538
Not like there are a ton of pictures floating around of SOF on mission that aren't staged

>>33088807

M4 isn't reliable.

The M27 has no practical advantages over an M4A1, the USMC is continuing its tradition of being special snowflakes.

>>33091841
>vatniklore

>>33092164
Except for not being a fragile POS.

>>33091841
>I've never been in the military

>>33089538
The MK.18 and SCAR-H are ubiquitous amongst SF and standard SEAL teams, and there are a lot more pictures of vanilla SEALS than probably any other special operations force in the US, hence all the SCAR-H/CQBR exposure.

Ever think there might not be many pictures because the 416 is primarily issued to CAG and DEVGRU units and they REALLY don't fucking like having their pictures taken on a mission?

>>33091119
If it was an old, quad railed SR-16, I wouldn't doubt it. The dickmod and M-LOK versions are light as fuck. 14.5 and lower barrels are only gonna be lighter.

I know the SR series isn't the fucking massive leap above standard M4s that the mil wants, but I'd feel pretty comfortable calling them the pinnacle of DI ARs and have been for a long time, at least up until this moment. I wish we'd just use them.

>>33091841
> (you)

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>>33087575
Then we shall resurrect it.

150 rd mags for everyone!

>>33089620
Yup this is the correct answer.

>>33089633
Better question is: why does the army exist?

>>33089648
this

>>33090576
Thank you for ur cervix ;'^)

Couldn't they just have gotten M4a1/M4a1+ instead? Or even just the M4a1 barrel for their old M4s?

>>33090543
That's his point, he's saying it's useless next to something heavier, I hope at least but either way he's retarded.

>>33090231

Quality bait my friend.

This triggers the /k/

>>33087559
Well the Marine Core is the punchline to all jokes about Military Intelligence so this doesn't surprise me.

>>33093234
I like this idea though. Made of plastic so is light its not a metal box. No loose belt getting damaged. Held off tension until the last moment, winding up gives a check on mag condition before it goes in.

Each squaddie gets one to carry, 1800 rounds. They can all use it if they need to, they might even appreciate it (joke).

>>33090231
PISSING AND SHITTING WHERE YOU EAT???

>>33096146
>Made of plastic so is light its not a metal box
Actually a loaded Armatac 150rd drum would probably be a fair bit heavier than 150rds of 5.56mm linked.

They're high quality, design to give you a constant and reliable feed, on top of being VERY durable and sturdy. This comes at a price though, as they are very expensive, and very heavy.
They make excellent range toys which you will cherish for years, it's the Beta C if it wasn't dogshit (no lube or spacer required!), but from a military perspective, 150rd drums for rifles just isn't a practical item.

Also the M16 and M4 isn't made for the same kind of sustained fire or many long bursts as an LMG, magdumping with one of these drums will make your rifle hot enough to cook bacon with, not to talk about potential cookoff in the chamber.

>>33089679
Marines should just be completely under the Navy, and paratoopers in the Air Force

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Does /k/ really not know the difference between Ljungman style DI and Stoner style DI?

It's probably a more significant difference then between short stroke piston and long stroke piston.

>>33089245
The Face-and-jaw-pro additions to our Kevlars that we've been testing so far resemble this... But one of the problems is that they cause a lot of the concussion from explosions (IEDs, etc) to be directed at the center of the forehead, IIRC, leading to a pretty much Billy Mays style guarantee for TBIs.

the USMC ordered 11,000 of them.

theyre looking at that colt canada upper whatever its called seriously as an update.

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>>33098587
forgot picture

>>33096334
they are under control of the navy. mabus cucked the fuck out of them and made them open infantry to females despite their study showing wimminz make fucking terrible infantrymen.

>>33098669
What study?

>>33096207
>Also the M16 and M4 isn't made for the same kind of sustained fire or many long bursts as an LMG
That's why you beef them up with a heavy barrel and maybe open bolt operation when you want it to do sustained fire. If that Armatac was really that good then it could be used for an American RPK.

>>33099063
No, because that's a fucking terrible idea, even the Russians don't use drums in their RPKs.

Also I would really insist on a short-stroke piston operation for something that's going to be a support weapon because every bit that helps with heat is needed. Heavy barrel (probably at least 20") and firing from an open bolt position is also good for lots of rapid fire. Then issue 40 or 50 round box magazines, because drums are a bunch of bulky shit, top off with a bipod or grippod.

I think this would be an acceptable light support weapon.
However I think it would be a very inadequate replacement for the M249, which has quick-change barrels and a belt feed. Carrying a 100rd or 200rd belt for your SAW gunner is much easier than carrying a loaded Armatac drum, where all the weight won't be distributed like with a belt

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>>33099699
They say the point of the M27 is to look like a normal gun and therefore be less likely to single out the gunner. To that end, 60 round mags would fit right in.

>>33089326
Never been in the military, so I don't have a dog in this fight at all, I'm just curious about the whole thing.

Why would they choose one AR-platform rifle over just changing the existing M4/M16 rifle specs (adding new barrel lengths/fire control groups/gas systems etc etc)? Was it more cost effective to just by new rifles? I dont know, it just seems silly to me when you can make an AR15 generally anything you fucking want it to be.

>>33099996
That's like the fucking worst reasoning ever.

>>33096146
>>33096207
Just as an FYI, not arguing or anything, the Armatac SAW-MAG weight 8 lbs fully loaded. A M249 200 rd plastic magazine fully loaded weighs only 5 lbs.

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>>33099699
They will soon with the RPK-16

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Marines are retards

It's all about being different snowflakes to them. Just look at what happened to those 1911s for MARSOC. they didn't think it through, ran into problems, then they just decided to get glocks. Good job deba doges.

My prediction

>m27 gets adopted by a quarter of USMC
>OH SHIT WE DON'T HAVE ANY SQUAD SUPPORT WEAPONS
>the costs of m27 and replacement parts get expensive
>Please, DoD, give us Mk46 like army
>Daddy DoD tells them to get rid of m27 due to parts compatibility and price.
>m27s now sit in storage, maybe MARSOC uses one
>USMC adopts m4 again.

>>33088999
>30rd gen3 Pmags
they could have had half brain and used the 40 rounders...... oh yeah, marines.

>>33101215
They'll eventually ditch the drums, trust me.

>>33101188
Each M27 belt link is 1.95 grams, 150 link implies 0.64 lb.

60 round 5.56 = 2.02 lbs
30 round loaded = 1.1 lb
So, changing from belts to normal mags costs an extra half pound, and its theoretically possible to practically match weight for weight using 60 round mags (don't do this).

>>33087559
Why not M4A1??
Just follow Army damn

>>33101676
The M27 is more accurate and has a longer barrel.

>>33101757
>accuracy which a marine simply isn't going to put to good use
>what is an M16?

>>33087575
>>33089514

Sure :^)

>wasting tax payers money on something that is already hi tech and beyond any other country's capability especially goat fuckers in the middle east and afghan
lmao whats the fucking point. Use taxes to build that wall.

>>33102180
It's more accurate than an m16, too.

>>33097926
Do explain

>>33098964
they did a buch of exercises in 29 palms with varying compositions of male to female and compared it against a normal male only unit. one of the biggest issues in female infantry is the rise of broken ankles and other lower body injuries, most likely from carrying ilbes and combat loads over long distances.

>>33089334
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT

IT COULD HAVE BEEN

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>>33103169

Compare this picture to that picture.