Battle of Kiev

>>33045398
>1941

>>33045430
I mean the encirclement, not the retaking

>>33045398
It should be a war crime to look that good on the battlefield.

>>33045398
>All memes aside, were the Reds really that poorly trained and equipped?

They were mostly poorly led, well equipped and had decent training. Slavshits being poorly trained and equipped became a thing after massive losses of 1941.

>>33045470
What made the Soviet generals most susceptible to this repeated failure to perform? Were they corrupt? Glory hogs? Genuinely poor tacticians? Perhaps I don't understand why the Soviet doctrine called for such massive sacrifices of manpower and materiel. There has to be a better way of winning a war than drowning the enemy in unwashed bodies, and I have assume the reds knew this.

>>33045398
1941 was a mess for a whole bunch of reasons for the Russians; the Germans had the same sort of problems in 44/45.

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>>33045398
>dead at the battle
If you can't read the article itself, then at least read the text before the numbers. Didn't you learn this shit at school anyway?

The number says killed, captured or missing. The entire army was captured after they surrendered. The Germans claimed 600k prisoners.

>>33045502
I can understand the Germans losing some of their clout after their manpower, resources and leadership started to shrivel up after a few years of getting squeezed like a national socialist zit, but the Soviets were fairly fresh and on familiar ground in 41 right?

>>33045491
>What made the Soviet generals most susceptible to this repeated failure to perform?

in the early parts of the war it was because stalins purges of the officer corps effectively crippled the armies leadership.

after that it was basically Generals trying to meet deadlines/competition against other generals with the loser usually getting yelled at by Stalin.

It was thought in open fields
Supplies for both sides were hard to get so after every engagement all the foxes participating will most likely have ran out of ammo and thus retreated
Tank optics were shit and most tank engagements were long range with Germans having the marder able to hit a tank at long range the Russians had the KV-1 able to withstand many hits
There was little to no cover so the front wasn't so much about picking decisive battles in areas you want to fight but more so fighting withdrawals that then turn into small pushes thus making the front more so a war of suppression and morale than of killing the enemy
Books on the subject are boring as fuck so if you want to get a nice feel for it play Gravtime tactics

>>33045510
Even assuming that they got 600k, that still leaves 100k dead Soviets. That's 1 to 4. And this isn't anecdotal, I personally can't think of any major engagements where the Soviets walked away with few casualties. Keep in mind, I am rusty on the matter, I was much more interested in this history as a younger man.

>>33045491
Stalin executed Tukhachevsky
If he was alive in 1941 war would have ended up in berlin in 1st week

>>33045539
>>33045491

Yup, this. Stalin gutted all of the experience out of his military in his earlier purges because, surprise surprise, experience correlates well with an ability to be a threat to the regime. Particularly when you haven't trained them yourself.

It's part of why the fins did so well against them despite the amazing disparity, because they had no idea what the fuck they were doing. They got some experience there but it wasn't enough, and the nature of warfare was changing on top of that.

>>33045541
Also fun fact many fresh SMG infantry regiments on the Russian side got stuck in these battles due to poor logistics
Completely use less all they did was spray bullets over 300-500m distances waisting large amounts of ammo
In addition it was the front where Russia issued the most SVDs at one given time

>>33045554
fewer*

>>33045527
They were caught completely off guard and in the middle of restructuring, they had no idea what to do and were not ready for war.

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>>33045491
the Soviets lost a sizeable portion of their experienced officers in Stalin's purges, many of their replacements weren't nearly as competent.

>Perhaps I don't understand why the Soviet doctrine called for such massive sacrifices of manpower and materiel.
under ideal circumstances it doesn't, of course 1941 was anything but ideal circumstances.

>What made the Soviet generals most susceptible to this repeated failure to perform?
>most susceptible
kek, that title goes to the Italians/Japs, at least the Ruskies got results. Your tone belies that you have disdain for the Reds, why is this?

>>33045561
>SVD
wut?

>>33045554
Operation Bagration had way less Soviet losses than German losses.

>>33045579
Svt **

>>33045575
On the contrary, I'm completely enamored with Soviet stuff. I just want to understand some of the qualitative aspects of the conflict better. So I can gather form most of these posts that Stalin dun goof'd and lots of people died?

>>33045593
Gatcha, I thought so
>>33045583
Thanks! I'll read up on that

>>33045398
Russian Officer Corp no matter the iteration is full of crybabby children. Anyone competent is destined to die horribly due to politicking. We still see this today with Givi and Motorola.

>>33045597

>So I can gather form most of these posts that Stalin dun goof'd and lots of people died?

only in 1941 really.

you could argue that though the soviet losses in damn near every battle was ridiculously high even when they had clear advantages the primary objectives would be accomplished. Ultimately the soviets had the manpower/industry to handle losing 10 guys for every 1 german while the germans couldn't. So the Russians were accomplishing shit just with high cost to manpower rather than time.

>>33045470
>well equipped

not really. each platoon of german wehrmacht had 10 machine guns. when russians had one for 4 platoons.

>>33045628
I see this ideology being repeated by the Norks, Chinese and North Vietnamese. Does the Communist Condition really create such a hive mind? Its like ants attacking a bottle of bug spray

>>33045630
The worth of those 10 MGs could be weighed against the vast presence of hand BRRRTs fielded by the soviets could it not? After all, it was a largely urban battle

>>33045646

>Does the Communist Condition

probably plays a good part in it. but remember every situation involving communists throwing themselves away like mother fuckers tends to have some concept of defending your homeland/home.

Norks were initially expansionist but fell apart and were then defending their homes
China was scared shitless of a USA invasion
NV were defending their homes from the French and later US
Russia was defending against the Germans.

Damn near every conflict they believed or were led to believe they were fighting for their very existence with the alternative being extermination.

>>33045672
>Damn near every conflict they believed or were led to believe they were fighting for their very existence with the alternative being extermination
in WWII this wasn't far from the truth

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>>33045672
Damn, now that I think of it, pretty much every communist country has been invaded, and shortly after its inception. What gives?

>>33045398
The Ukrainians were literally starved out by Stalin so there was little resistance from the populous other than the troops garrisoned.
1941 was when the Soviets were still getting beat before the Third Five Year Plan was completed in 1943 with factories in the Urals at full production.

>>33045707

>What gives?

for Russia it was Hitler hating slavs and wanting lebensraum.

post world war 2 you hit USA's containment policy.

>>33045491
>What made the Soviet generals most susceptible to this repeated failure to perform? Were they corrupt?

While nepotism, corruption, negligence and general incompetence are nothing new under Russian sun and Soviet army leadership was selected ideological commitment instead of competence, generals still weren't the most lacking part of red army. It is the middle management that got truly fucked in purges. Basically they simply appointed brand new butter bars and few odd captains as regimental staff officers once they had shot fuckload of majors and colonels. Them getting anything resembling competent in their jobs takes time.

>>33045557

Nope.

>>33045560
>Yup, this. Stalin gutted all of the experience out of his military in his earlier purges because, surprise surprise, experience correlates well with an ability to be a threat to the regime.

This isn't even Communism issue. Communism is just excuse here. Tyranny and corruption are the very essence and defining features of Russian culture. It wouldn't be Russia without those.

>>33045749
the Japanese made China into their geisha tho

>>33045539
>getting yelled at by Stalin.

If by 'yelled at' you mean purged then yea.

>>33045807
Heh I know he was an awful dude but something about Old Joe was kinda cute. All short and plump with twinkly eyes

>>33045557
please

tukachevsky had some good theory, but his leadership in practice was abhorrent at best

>>33045798
>the Japanese made China into their geisha tho

the Communist China we know and love today was founded after world war 2 when chairman mao kicked out Chiang-kei-shek and his nationalists. they had a civil war going on before the Japanese invaded. it got put on hold once the Japanese started raping and bombing Chinese cities.

>>33045830
China was commie controlled since the mid 30s i thought

>>33045398
It's because slavs are subhuman. If they didn't get betrayed by the jews who were enjoying their free holiday resort camps the Germans would've won the war.

Is that what you wanted to hear /pol/?

>>33045871
OP here. Not every discussion relating to Nazis is extolling their virtues. I'm totally indifferent to the ideologies of a group of dead krauts and could give two shits less about race. I'm here for military discussion , as per the sticky.

>>33045830
>It got put on hold
Not really, whilst the nationalists were busy fighting and dieing the Communists were busy in the villages building support and not getting buttraped by the Japanese.

>>33045861

nope if I remember correctly the communists had a fuck ton of rural support but lacked much of the urban areas of China. They didn't gain full control over mainland China until 1949 when the PROC was declared and Taiwan was the only land left for the nationalists.

>>33045906
Hrm. Invade China when?

>>33045575
The Nips performed pretty well until the Battle of Midway. The Spaghetti failed from day 1.

>>33045583
Bagraton was basically the Soviets declaring the war was won. It was such a gigantic undertaking and a huge success, that there was basically no hope left at that point. The Soviets captured enough German prisoners in one day that even when speed-marched 20 abreast down Moscow square, it took 90 minutes for them to pass.

Bagration should get way more attention than it does. It's proof positive that situations on the eastern front are just as reversable as anywhere else in war and the issues as presented by the USSR in the early war were not unique to the red army. I guess when a narrative gets countered people don't like it, but shit, it was a huge success.

>>33045398
Kill ratio was 1:7. It's not that bad. The Vietcong often suffered a kill ratio of 1:10.

>>33045927
That's a little different though. Equipment wise at least

>>33045921
Giving more importance to this operation would diminish the US, British and French success. That's probably why it's never mentioned as it should be.

>>33045927
"You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours. But even at that odds, you will still lose and I will win" Ho Chi Minh, leader of Vietcong

>>33045398
>Be encircled
>Surrender
>Die in camp
Camps on East front was nothing like on West with Red Cross, Charles Bronson and his Great Escape.

>>33045977
Ayyyy i just read that quote out of a book the other day

>>33046031
Despite abysmal K:D ratio, we were based alpha asf. We would have lost if the U.S was allowed to invade NV

>>33045906
Strange trying to picture a China that never went communistic. Imagine re-writing everything since the 1950's

>>33045830
>>33045861

Commie China existed then as an idea, but Mao operated pretty under the radar when most of China was concerned with the IJA and wasn't given much notice until the Soviets started pumping his little party with resources. Taiwan and maybe Hong Kong is what's left of the China the US fought to defend, and if the Chinks had gone commie earlier we would have been welcoming Japan's annexing of them with open arms.

>>33045583
>Operation Bagration had way less Soviet losses than German losses.

Casualties and losses

German

c. 300,000–550,000

Soviet

770,888 overall[11][12]

most of the people in this thread don't have a goddamn idea what they're talking about.

there was a time when meme history wasn't passed back on forth on this board, but that time is apparently long past.

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I can't find any instance on any front until 1943 where Germans suffered higher casualties than the Allies. They've lost less than 40k before conquering the whole Europe.

The encirclement of Kiev was one of the most brilliant pincer moves in military history. Hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers were caught with their pants, quite literally, around their ankles.

Also, at this point in 1941, the Red Army hadn't really finished their reforms. Most of the troops on the Western Front (for Russia) were poorly trained conscripts. Their more professional and well trained troops, the Siberian divisions, were on the border with Manchuria because the Soviets had been expecting a Japanese attack.

When they realized the Japanese were focusing their efforts on the Pacific, they diverted the Siberian divisions back to Moscow. That was when things started to go very poorly for Germany.

>>33046072
Yeah, this is something people don't realize when they say "hurrrrr US never won a war."

China guaranteed North Vietnam's existence. And after Korea, we were no longer willing to try and call their bluff. Directly invading North Vietnam would have meant all out war with China and possibly the Soviet Union.

And unfortunately, you simply can't stop an insurgency when their equipment and even personnel are coming from countries you aren't allowed to touch.

>>33046989
How can you say that when China and Vietnam were at war in that time period?

>>33048861
Sino-Soviet split bruh. Other reasons too that I might not know, but the split is the prime reason here. Amidst the Vietnam war, Hanoi decide to stick with Moscow, and responded to insurgency in Cambodia with force, which didn't make Deng happy.

>>33045398
The soviets had a huge problem with low level officers at the start of the war. German leadership had better de-cenralization and fielded very capable officers and NCOs. As the war progressed- the Germans lost those experienced officers and the Soviets replaced politically appointed officers with those that had proven competence and the disparity began to decrease significantly. The Soviet troops performed well enough individually, but often received poorly thought out or downright nonsensical orders.

>>33046953
Enlighten us

>>33046963
Second El Alamein.

>>33045398
What is that pic from? I always loved seeing that video clip. Any one know more about it?

>>33045527
Stalin was insanely paranoid, so much to the point that he did not believe that the Germans were invading because he thought it was a British ruse to get the Soviets to mistakenly engage the Germans. By the time the Soviets realized that they're under massive attack, the Luftwaffe had destroyed the majority of the Soviet Air Force and had tore ass deep into Ukraine.