5.56 vs 7.62

We'll do what we've always done. Shoot the fucker until it stops moving.

>>33005199
I'll take 1 and 4.

>>33005199

No, in all likelyhood a better round of 5.56 will be developed to counter it. And another and another and so on and so forth.

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>>33005217
While you're trying to hit them 3-4 times, they just got to nail you once with their FAL.

>>33005270
That will be hard when they're being suppressed by a higher volume of fire, which is the whole point of 5.56.

>>33005270
>implying they will still be standing upright and aiming while taking rounds to the chest plate
Life isn't a fucking video game

>>33005199

Because, whats better? Resort to old calibers? Or improve the ones we have?

So we have the penetration of 7,62(that comes out of raw power) and the lightness, presition and cheapness of 5,56.

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>>33005311
>Let's chamber Ar in .22
>Come on guyz stopping power is just a myth

>>33005359
>Discussing 5.56 vs 7.62
>HERPA DERP .22LR HERPA DERPA

>>33005199
2 and 4

>>33005380
they didnt say lr but

>DESIGNED TO WOUND

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>>33005380
>Be in IV plate in Dumbfuckistan
>Get shot by 5.56 from Ackbar half-a-mile away
>feelsbadman.jpg
>Stop being a faggot and get up again
>live to fight another day
>can't say the same for the other guy
Really activates my almonds

>>33005199
Violent and transnational non state actors and violent kinds of NGOs are so interesting from an organizational and social perspective.

Shame most are derkas or edgy terrorist organizations. Not too many volunteer or even pmc brigades that have more than a typical 3rd world level of army (with smaller amounts of first world equipment and ex-military personnel)

>>33005468
> NGOs are so interesting from an organizational and social perspective.


Why so?

Its so hard to find bibliography about Africa and PMCs that don't feel like propaganda...

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>>33005199
55gr 223/556 cuts through steel like butter within 100 yards, the same steel that does pic related and takes borderline 0 damage.

Speed kills armor, not mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM

>>33005861
F=ma
Ever heard of depleted uranium shells?

>>33005468
>Violent and transnational non state actors and violent kinds of NGOs are so interesting from an organizational and social perspective.
>Shame most are derkas or edgy terrorist organizations. Not too many volunteer or even pmc brigades that have more than a typical 3rd world level of army (with smaller amounts of first world equipment and ex-military personnel)
Because international law REALLY limits the operating capacity of PMCs. And if you're a volunteer brigade anywhere in the world, the best you can count on is whatever state actor finds you ideologically convenient donating the old shit that's too busted to be issued to regular troops.

>>33005861
KE kills body armor. Increasing speed is a great way to increase KE.

>>33005233
4>3>>>>2>5>1

>>33006336
3 is ugly as fuck

>>33005976
Depleted uranium is for big rounds.

>>33005430
Can you validate your claim that 5.56 was designed to wound?

>>33005199
No because we will continue to call in airstrikes and indirect fire which really doesn't give a shit about what armor you're wearing.

>>33005270
you realize lvl 4 ceramics are rated to stop 7.62 NATO, right?

>>33005430
holy fuck where are you getting your disinfo

>>33008927
I don't think that strategy will always work. Not every theater of war is going to be against an enemy that only has small arms and IEDs. I do agree that the military wouldn't bother to give the troops a better suited weapon though. 5.56 will still work for the most part either way.

>>33005430
http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?415927-Stopping-power-weak-5-56-(explicit-pictures)

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>>33009360
It may tumble in organic targets, but I question its ability to pierce body armor at range. Most of our foes aren't equipped with vests yet, but it is becoming more common, and as it does, I think we'll start to see the failings of 5.56.

>>33005300
You can't suppress people who aren't afraid of getting hit by what you are shooting, which is why exoskeletons and power armor (even just a barebones, duct-tape, <75% coverage implementation) will completely change what is the minimum caliber required for infantry combat.

>>33009670
I'm pretty sure 5.56 penetrates better than 7.62

>>33010078
'totally depends on what rifle is firing the round

>>33005233
same

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>>33010078
hahahahahahahahhahahahaha oh fuck you cant be serious right now.

>>33009812
u whot?
75% Bullet resistance will not bring their HP up.
even if they have natty 18 dex they will take enough hits by the fire team spamming magic misiles

7.62x51 doesnt penetrate plate..even 7.62x51 steel core "ap" rounds dont penetrate lvl 4 plate and no one in stupid enough to use cheapshit lvl 3 ar500 steel plates anymore so thats not a problem...but even so at a distance bc of lost velocity 7.62 nato wont actualy penetrate that either. "Ap" ammo besides tungsten rounds on much larger bore guns is a joke fud meme

>>33005316
Improve the current caliber, upgrade the bullets to over-penetrate hard objects and yaw in soft tissue.

Maybe hot load 5.56 and give everyone heavy barrels.

>>33010571

Why not just develop a .22 with an incredibly high magazine capacity and fire rate for close urban combat at that point? The tiny round and low recoil enable both of those qualities. Just a man-portable storm of fire suppression.

>>33010571
Underrated clap back

>>33010652
A golf cart of ammunition to lug around until angels over our shoulders right I bid you adieu

>>33010599
M993 will penetrate Level IV plates. I bet a lighter bullet would do even better.

>>33010571
Nonsensical blabbering is also known as a non-argument.

I mean sure, go ahead, keep using your 5.56. When it scratches the paint off the ZSAPI-plated helmet of someone wearing very near future armor systems, you might not live long enough to go complain about it on /k/.

>>33005199

Once we get to the point of Carbon nanotube/Graphine body armor we will go back to using Smoothbore rifles that fire High velocity Tungsten perpetrators.

>>33010979
I thought we were just roll playing in a tortoise shellaquing Antioquian site.

I think modern and future technology will push for very resistant armour that will take a few hits to be defeated, saving the life of the wearer but putting him out of the fight untill he can get armoured again.

nobody is pushing for armour that will turn a man in to the juggernaut because it does not serve any one particular purpose, light and able to take a few hits is the way to go because teams are a thing, and the cost/benefit don't add up when IEDs are cheap and can defeat all personal armour.

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OK time to drop some motherfucking science.
>"hurr 7.62 rekt body armor!"
No, 5.56 outperforms 7.62 in that area, the best type of projectile is a fast, small cross sectioned high density projectile. Think of a APFSDS, or flechette. However these rounds SUCK against soft targets and get utterly fucked by obstructions.

>>33005199
Don't level 4 plates stop 5.56 and 7.62 AP rounds?

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>>33005199
>will the military have to upgun to battle rifles?

At this point APCR as a rifle bullet would be feasible as armored penetration. However because fin stabilized "flechette" are considered unethical for war there has been yet a definitive alternative. But that is to say if the military is up to the levels of quality compared to the private market.

>>33012207
What about the Russian's 5.45? The bullet overstablizes on hard objects and yaws on soft.

>>33005976

E=m*v^2

Velocity is more important for killing armor, and people.

>>33005530
For a better reference read the accounts from the enemies that fight said paramilitaries and mercenaries.

That's a good way to gauge any faction, from both external and internal viewpoints.

>>33006174
I just want another modernized Teutonic/Crusading Order or a large organized American militia structure that can pool first world resources and launch larger operations to assist western allies or run on independent missions. Like the same structures that Russian hybrid Green Men or Hezbollah and their Iranian Revolutionary Guards use to spread vast numbers of paramilitaries allied to them.

>>33005199
No, probably downgun to smaller and faster projectiles with better armor penetration

>>33011674
Even just protecting a person from a handful of hits can be the difference between being able to suppress him or not. If he can be reasonably confident with his chances of survival when sticking his head out for a while, then he can take that time to accurately line up his shot on you; the presumably unarmored / less-armored person. Then YOU are suppressed while your ineffective / less-effective firepower will now suffer from being even less accurate (because you have to keep your head down more often) which snowballs the reduction to your ability to suppress the enemy.

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battle rifles are worse at penetrating armor
Big silver splashes are 7.62RFN, 18" barrel
Hole and craters is 55 grain 5.56 out of a 20"

>>33005199
5.56x45 is higher velocity, more reason to stick to their M## series.

velocity defeats armor

>>33005199
Let me shoot you couple times with 5.56 while you're wearing lvl 4's and we'll see then how invincible some little plates covering only your most necessary vitals make you

>>33012412
I guess it really depends on the scenario you have in your head.

what are you thinking Famalam, is it just fighting off an ambush, defending or raiding a building, a shooting gallery style shootout.

in general I agree that better armour is better. however no matter how good your armour is no one is going to train you to take one for the team.

have you been watching jhon wick?
no one does solo missions where they would risk getting shot by the unknown weapon your enemy is wielding in order to take out one man out of an unknown number.

no disrespect I'm just wondering about your tought process.

>>33012459
as someone who shoots lots of steel can confirm

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>>33012540
>>33012459
oops that's before I shot it with the 7.62

>>33012321
it is 0.5m in that formula

>>33012521
Who is talking about solo work? I used a 1v1 example for the sake of easy comparison but this will scale to any size of engagement. If 10 people on one side are not scared of getting hit a few times by 10 people on the other side, then the former is going to have a massive advantage in the long run for suppressing and maneuvering everyone as a team. If your concern is about whether each individual soldier will be willing to expose himself for longer than he used to before armor, then I think that is purely a training issue and getting them to trust each other to all engage at the same time.

The point of the thread is 5.56 vs 7.62 in the context of armor becoming better and more common. Everyone is going to need bigger calibers and bigger guns if they want to continue presenting an adequate amount of threat to the other side in order to continue being able to control the flow and tempo of battle. Pose too little of a threat and you will be dancing to the opponent's tune, that in my personal opinion is what will happen to any country that continues to use 5.56 and other small intermediate calibers a few decades from now. Maybe some exotic loadings for 5.56 can alleviate this problem but not regular AP.

>>33012511
Okay, but only if he gets to shoot you at the same time. I think I'll arrange your funeral in advance from the bet money.

>>33012543
wew, what optic you got there?

>>33012582
vortex viper PST 1-4x24
I think they recently discontinued it

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>>33012591
i guess the cool kids have 1-6s now?

>>33012567
I guess this works if you have perfect info on what resources the enemy has on each particular engagement. I'm not saying better armour won't happen eventually but there is no real incentives for this kind of stuff. I think we are pretty close to peak performance when it comes to what ground troops can acomplish.

>>33012593
They should, that's what I want to replace it with

>>33005199
4 is a babe. makes me hopeful to join the military

I've arrived to settle all arguments. Number 4 is the only one that's worthy. And the military doesn't give a shit about small arms because most of our kills come from airstrikes and indirect fire. Boom.

>>33012612
For the most part you can expect the regulars of any force you fight to be mostly equipped with the service rifles of that nation or the general region. Specialty weapons like anti mat rifles are not going to be common enough to affect decision making, seriously.

I really doubt infantry have reached peak performance when they always get the smallest budget allocation of any branch, exos are still in development and we haven't even touched genetic engineering yet.

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>>33012368
>I just wanna crusade.

I know man, but the world just doesn't work that way anymore.

>>33012661
so no d&d but then you go all 40k fucking heretic

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>>33005199

I will take 1, 2, 3, and 4 :^)

>>33010078
>>33010117

Actually it depends on the armor.
If we're talking about 7.62 in an intermediate cartridge, 5.56 will be more likely to penetrate steal plates.

A lot of plates capable of stopping 5.56 are also capable of stopping 7.62x51 though

>>33005199

As weird as it sounds, most body armor capable of stopping 5.56 is also capable of stopping 7.62.

>>33005199

Reminds me of a joke a former AFSOC shooting instructor told me:

>If you're being shot at with handgun rounds, find your front sight
>If you're being shot at with intermediate rifle rounds, find solid cover
>If you're being fired at with full-power rifle rounds, find cover and Jesus

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>>33013603
>>33013528
I think the suggestion is to increase the affect of wounds to non-vital (unarmored) areas.

5.56 is fairly terrible at putting people out of action with impacts to limbs/shoulders etc.

>>33010599
>>33011242
>Price of Steel: $300/tonne
>Price of Tungsten: 100,000/tonne

You better be a great shot, what afforded you a full combat load now buys you 2/3 of a bullet

.280

brits were right from the start you niggers should have listened

>>33012213
Level 4 plates are rated for .30-06 M2 AP, which is a very old design using a pretty awful penetrator compared to tungsten.

>>33012321
KE=1/2mv, dude.

>>33005380
>Not just rebuttaling with her DER 9mm

>>33005674

That doesnt mean shit, just about every centerfire round will cut through mild soft steel which is what you were shooting, I'm guessing it was some kind of scrap.


54r,x39,5.56 all will not penetrate level 3 armor plate, you need actual AP projectiles.

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THREAD THEME!
H
R
E
A
D

T
H
E
M
E
!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P8wgrZ6t5BA

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>>33005430

>>33012321
>>33014902
1/2mv^2

>Velocity is more important for killing armor, and people.

Not exactly. Your round is never going to have more energy than the energy released by the powder. If it's bigger, it'll be slower, but the energy will be the same, ignoring inefficiencies.

A bigger, slower round will have more energy when it reaches its target than a smaller, quicker round with the same muzzle energy because air resistance affects slower things less (second power).

>>33017670
Okay so the perfect round for hitting hard at long ranges would be low caliber, long for that weight and drag coefficient, and with a big powder charge.

Why don't we neck down 7.62x51 nato to say, 5.56 and stick in a long and heavy bullet?

>>33017771
thats exactly 300 AAC

>>33005233
3.5 and 4 only

>>33017880
300 AAC is the exact opposite of what i suggested.

300 AAC is 5.56x45mm necked up to 7.62mm.

I suggested 7.62x51mm necked down to 5.56mm

>>33017921
thats .243 winchester

>>33017925
Yeah i wonder how something like that with a longer and heavier bullet would fare.

>>33017983
why not just go into something like 6.5 creedmore?

>>33017670
>1/2mv^2
That's what I thought I wrote, huh.

>>33013782
Put cyanide in the bullets. Problem solved. Dem environmental issues, tho.