Was klendathu a tactical mistake on part of the federation?

no it was an intelligence failure
had they captured kledathu then the bugs would have been finished

>>32973591
>drop all forces at once without proper recon and air support to fight a vastly numerically superior enemy on their own turf without the benefit of carpet bombing, ground armor, or orbital bombardment

It was a clusterfuck of insane proportions. They underestimated the bug and millions died as a result.

>>32973746
didn't the last bits of the movie they showed actually using carpet bombing the bugs?

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>>32973767
Yes.

AFTER Klendathu.

When the new Sky Marshall was appointed she specifically stated they knew too little about the Bugs and needed to systematically wipe out their influence by attacking the outer planets first. Where they could focus their ships on a single planet at a time where as the bugs were more or less isolated to their own rocks.

They switched tactics to mass bombing first then using ground forces to mop up in far smaller numbers. Which meant they could be deployed and recovered quickly if the bugs surged back in.

>>32973837
is there any IRL paralel to klendathu?

>>32973890
Vietnam

Except we lost that one

inb4 mental gymnastics

>>32973890
Little Bighorn is pretty close.

BUENOS AIRES IS A INSIDE JOB

HOW CONVENIENT THE ORBITAL DEFENSE GRID WAS DOWN WHEN THAT ASTEROID CAME

HOW IMPROBABLE WAS THAT ASTEROID TO BE LAUNCHED FROM ACROSS THE GALAXY WITH SIMPLE BUG PLASMA TO ACCURATELY HIT EARTH

WAKE UP CITIZENS

>>32973591
Wake up Citizens! The Buenos Aires was an inside job. There is no way to the bugs could have calculated the strike. The federation wanted to stir up support and warm bodies, since they wanted to take the bug home world.

>>32973890
Germans at Stalingrad.

>>32973963
Oh fuck, glad to see a fellow citizen knew the truth before I posted >>32974004

>>32973890
plenty if you look into the individual "battles" instead of the overall operations throughout history

Why didnt they fight this war with like tanks and attack helicopters or something like that? Why send thoudands of dudes into the grinder?

>>32974163
TO GIVE MORE CONTROL TO THE FEDDIES

>>32974163
I know this is going to blow your mind anon, because starship trooper truly is 2deep kino
[spoiler] but it's almost like that's the point of the movie, as if the society they live in values human life as much as the bugs value theirs[/spoiler]

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>>32973890
I don't know of any direct parallels, but it's a pretty typical "Never underestimate your enemy" situation. Forces expecting an easy win and not bothering to do proper intel and getting fucked.

>>32974163
In the books one mobile infantry suit is legitimately more powerful and well, mobile than any tank or vehicle system due to the use of man-portable nuclear weapons systems and jump jets.

Plus, bugs and skinnies are actually pretty pissy little targets and die in huge droves, the biggest problem is that the Bugs can "smear" (read: glass) targets from interplanetary distances, with techniques that can't really be discerned or controlled because their leadership caste is not understood.

So think of it as something similar to the wars against terrorist groups today - yes we CAN just blow them back to the stone age but that isn't stopping them because they have, for the purpose of analogy, an ideological hivemind. We have to have boots on the ground to intercept and either capture or kill these leaders to cut off the head of the snake.

As for Verhoeven's movie - fuck knows, it's rule of cool

>>32974234
which is incredibly out of touch with the message of the book itself, but Verhoeven didn't really care

>>32974317
yeah I'm going to blow your mind again
[spoiler]that's also the point[/spoiler]

>>32974342
>that's also the point
No it isn't. Verhoeven's movie plot wasn't a specific subversion of Heinlein's novel - he just never fucking read it because he had got it in his head at some point that it was fascist propaganda and refused to even open it. He had to have production assistants read the book and pick out neat segments (like the nuke vs knife debate, or the flogging) to be reinterpreted.

The point was to lose the fight and use the massive losses as a reason to continue the war.

>>32974457
not really, since the Sky Marshal resigned
They legitimately fucked up

>>32974368
it is still the point that verhoeven wanted to make, whatever intentions he had. The movie is successful at it, whether you agree with the message or not.

>>32974472
Another acceptable casualty, like all the soldiers that died, in "their" mind. Ultimately just another pawn in the grand scheme of things.

>>32973837
What's this screenshot from? Or it's unrelated?

>>32974487
>it is still the point that verhoeven wanted to make, whatever intentions he had.
Fair point
>The movie is successful at it, whether you agree with the message or not.
I don't think it is, though? Most people regard it as a low-budget B-movie and see very little if any of the message

the only thing I remember about that movie is after the white guy hangs his head in shame and steps down, aunt jemima is chosen to lead humanity to victory

>>32974512
Unrelated, from a disaster excuse for a movie

>>32974512
starship troopers invasion

CGI film releases 4 years ago.

Bretty okish.

>>32974368
>because he had got it in his head at some point that it was fascist propaganda
If it isn't, it's very close.

>>32974514
Most people that watch it today see it for what it is, I think. Back then, I dunno, I thought it was always fairly obvious? People are dumb I guess.

It's really not low-budget though, even today I think the movie holds up really good. All the visual effects are amazing. The b-movie elements, like the framing, lighting, etc are all obviously intentional.

Did you post this because of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkEdyq3UE5M

>>32973890

Isandlwana

>>32974644
>completely voluntary military service
>no command economy
>elected leaders

>>>fascism
Libtards pls go

>>32974514
>low-budget B-movie
>released in 1997
>budget was $105 million

I have to agree with >>32974708 that Starship Troopers wasn't low budget at all and that the B-movie elements were intentional. Watching it now it still holds up relatively well in its special effects (besides that fucking throwing knife hand).

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>>32974913
>>32974708
The movie did have some great model work.

>>32974368


If you patriotic at all you're just like a Nazi durr hurr, yeah the movie is about as subtle as an anvil being dropped on your head. Plus the subtext of it, the whole , "No...humans are the real monsters" message is kind of ruined in this case when the outside enemy "other" are either giant cockroaches, walking ginsu knives who are biologically incapable of doing anything but killing, or intelligentsia who literally suck peoples brains out for sustenance. Why would humanity not want to exterminate a species like that?

>>32974930
Goddamn. I really wish we could go back more to models and not rely so heavily on CGI. It just doesn't have the same effect.

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>>32975051
Here anon. Have some more.

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>>32975081

>>32974957
The bugs are just the backdrop. They aren't supposed to be some dindu nuffin enemy. They are legitimately a braindead, violent species.

The movie is supposed to be introspective into some of the behavior that humans also are capable of; including being convinced that being brainless, cannon fodder drones while believing you're doing a service to a "higher power", is somehow better than whatever the bugs are doing.

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>>32975101

>>32974368
What the book said was irrelevant. The book wouldn't have made a good movie.

>>32974905
Fascism gets thrown around a lot when it isn't warranted. In this case it's clearly a stratocracy. Verhoeven uses Nazi imagery as a thematic parallel.

>>32975081
>>32975101
>>32975116
>you will never have a warehouse full of 1:1000 scale capitol ships to play space battle with
why even live

So do you think is much of a lost art or is there enough work in hollywood to keep it alive?

>>32974930
>>32975081
really? I thought they used crappy CGI for the ships
>would you like to know more?

>>32975116
I didn't realize the ship models were that big! Truly a lost art in today's movies. Well, I guess CGI does some pretty magical things today, but blood and gore effects in particular are still far behind the visceral feel of the 80s and 90s practical effects (and lack of care for political correctness (although weirdly it was the libs that advocated for less violence censoring back then??))

Starship troopers I think does the best of both worlds, it's got a lot of good practical effect tricks and despite its age uses CGI effects to near perfection.

>>32975110

Yeah, but this is exactly my problem with the movie. I get the idea that the filmmakers were trying to draw a comparison between the behavior of the bugs and humans, but in the case of the latter group putting aside individuality in order to deal with such a specific and credible threat is completely rational in this circumstance (unless you hold to fan theory that Buenos Aires was an inside job) But at the same time the movie makes it very clear that Federation was a fascist state long before the bugs became a problem, rather than as a result of it. But this fascist new world order just happened to run into something worse than them in the cosmos? It just doesn't jive thematically, and it keeps it from being a particularly effective anti fascist message film. It kind of like how Warhammer 40k, everything the Imperium does actually makes sense in perverse sort of way when considering the threats arrayed against it. But the point of fascism is that is irrational.

>>32973963
>>32974004
I heard this conspiracy theory from a filthy civilian
>bugs meteors are inaccurate as shit
>no ftl travel too. Meaning it would take thousands of years for a meteor to reach Earth
>meteor would have missed Earth BUT a ship was nearby when it appeared in our solar system
>Ship's pilot changed course to intercept the meteor to correct it's course to earth
>The pilot intentionally bumped into the meteor to correct it's course to earth and at the same time, destroy all of the ship's communication
>Said pilot was an expert pilot and was also mathematics genius meaning she could have:
>Calculated and corrected the meteor's course to earth
>OR, could have avoided the meteor without damaging the ship
>Said pilot was also BFF with a psychic officer within the federation
>Orbital defense system was offline for some reason
>It was an inside job so that the federation can declare war on the arachnids
Of course, I didn't believe him. I told my local federation office about this filthy traitor. Last I heard, he was sentenced to death on all net and all channels.
That's what you get for not being a citizen

>>32975259
There are enough nerds that make models as their personal hobby that I'm sure the art is still alive.

>>32974633
Wait, it's not based on the unfinished Roughnecks CGI series, is it?

>>32974930
You're kidding--I thought they used really detailed (for the time) CGI.

>>32975277
>But at the same time the movie makes it very clear that Federation was a fascist state long before the bugs became a problem, rather than as a result of it.
The movie shows several maimed veterans. So presumably there was war before the bugs. Maybe with other aliens, or maybe not.

In the book the bug war was preceded by war with other aliens, but also periods of peace.

>>32975314
Some was CGI, some was models.

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>>32975314
They used a lot of shit.

https://youtu.be/cUpUKAs_IGA

>>32975323
I never read the book, so I didn't know that there was war with other aliens. I always assumed it was just from the Federation acting against separatist colonies or planets like the Halo series.

>>32975277
The Bugs aren't worse than the Federation. The film itself shows that the first action the Bugs take against humans isn't the meteor attack but the slaughter of a human colony on a Bug planet. The meteor attack is specifically called a retaliation for the colony. The film is actually incredibly ambiguous about the behavior of the Bugs and the Federation and you can draw a lot of different conclusions.

>>32975382

Well in the book they mentioned three other wars (presumably one of those was the one that happened in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress) in space and several "contact troubles" before the bug war.

>>32975382
The book and the cartoon series features the Skinnies as allies of the Bugs. The book also makes it clear that peacetime military is essentially a bunch of busywork made intentionally dangerous so the presence of a wounded veteran isn't really a signifier of anything.

I am going to hate this movie, if I'm a big fan of the book?

>>32975297
Technically, no but it drew a lot of inspiration.
Namely the MI's power armor.
It is more like a "sequel" to the trilogy

As a kid till now, I wished they finished the Roughneck chronicles. The synopsis on the unproduced episode were absolutely bad ass. 100 marauder suits dropped into the center of the earth to destroy the mothership

>>32975392

>The film is actually incredibly ambiguous about the behavior of the Bugs and the Federation and you can draw a lot of different conclusions.


Well, I guess I'll have to leave it at that. I don't know enough about Verhoevan's filmography to know if he is the kind of filmmaker who typically inserts a lot of moral ambiguity into his films

>>32975277
well I don't think anyone looks at starship trooper as particularly effective anti-fa message anyway. It's mostly just satire. It's there to poke fun at these little elements.

I get what you're saying, and I kinda agree. But at the end of the end, it's still kinda still just an action movie about shooting up some mindless bugs. It's obviously got some message about not just buying into whatever violent, peer-pressure or mindless patriotic rhetoric that the state wants you to buy into, but obviously not everything is meant to be as well thought out as 1984 or Brave New World or something. It's got its little simplistic message to play around and then it's mostly about making a fun action movie.

I don't know man, I just see it as the best of both world. It's got a little bit of brains going on, but it's all in good fun, right? You can still believe the bugs got it going for them, shooting the fuck out of them is all good and fun, and if you wanna think that maybe the humans are still kinda fucked up well you kinda still think that too, nobody's stoppin you

>>32975171
Squads of powered armor gorilla suits, tribulations of a young man struggling to adapt to command responsibility, intergalactic war against a mysterious enemy...

Sounds like a good-ass movie to me.

>>32975439
Treat the movie as it's own entity. I enjoyed both, but don't go into the movie expecting to like it for the reasons you liked the book.

>>32975458
>I don't know enough about Verhoevan's filmography to know if he is the kind of filmmaker who typically inserts a lot of moral ambiguity into his films
He absolutely does. See: Robocop.

>>32973890
I suppose the US inna pacific theater during WW2 with their "island hopping" campaign.

>>32975477
The original SPESS MUHREENS.

>>32975477
In 1997 the power armor would have been unfilmable. In 2017 the power armor would play as an iron man ripoff.

Either way, the power armor is nerd-bait. I strongly believe the movie was better off without it.

The clear fault of the movie is thinking people would care about Buenos Aires.

Anyone who has ever been there knows it's a land of dogshit and thieves.

>>32975477
80% of the book is about withdrawing the franchise from everyone but military veterans.

>>32975527
The movie basically depicts Buenos Aires as an idealistic white American suburb. Because Fascism! Love the aesthetic though.

>>32975458
Not really moral ambiguity but rather ambiguity of intentions, actions, and results. Take Robocop, OCP is definitely some amoral motherfuckers with a healthy mix of incompetency and evil but at the same time Detroit PD is a barely functioning mess that barely maintains a semblance of control.

>>32975439
Good film, poor adaptation. Though why you'd want a faithful adaptation of ST is beyond me considering the book is like 90% political philosophizing between characters.

>>32975531
Yeah. That's only about 20% of the movie.

>>32973907
they actually have a lot of parallels
>politicians getting too involved in military strategy
>underestimation of the enemy
>pyrrhic victory
>mismanagement of military forces (USAF not being let loose until the end of the war)
the main difference is that klendathu was used as a rallying cry by the government.

>>32975498
but that strategy was actually effective.

>>32975583
>politicians getting too involved in military strategy

Except in ST all the politicians are the military.

>>32974594

Aunt Jemima makes Pancakes and waffles 100 times better, so why not the Federation? It was a huge improvement.

>>32975277
why do people keep calling the Federation fascist? There is no supreme leader, no one person that fully controls the government. Do people really think that being militaristic = fascism now?

>>32974163

In the movie there was a very brief mention of an AI war. At the time my mind came to the conclusion that the tools of mechanized warfare where all given AI, rebelled and defeated. I came to the rather abrupt conclusion that the Federation where still very much recovering from the war and loss of units when the bugs struck.

>>32975669
Because the film deliberately wraps the Federation in NatSoc aesthetics? I think that probably has something to do with it...

>>32975679
When was it mentioned in the movie? Going to rewatch and want to look out for it.

>>32975602
maybe a better term would be incompetents?
>>32975684
so maybe the film has an even deeper meaning, some shit about where just because something looks fascist doesn't make it bad?

>>32975648

I love that her brilliant master plan was just to carpet bomb southern calif...I mean bug occupied planets and then send in infantry to mop up.


>>32975669

That's pretty clearly what the movie was going for, I'm not saying it makes any sense.

>>32975735
>so maybe the film has an even deeper meaning, some shit about where just because something looks fascist doesn't make it bad?
Considering Paul Verhoeven, no. Verhoeven lived in Nazi occupied Netherlands as a child. He meant it as a satirical critique of fascism. The film's failure to accurately depict fascism in anything but aesthetic is a consequence of Verhoeven's shallow understanding of fascism as "aesthetic militarism".

>>32975797
>*anything but aesthetic terms

>>32975477

Well, because somebody has to mention it in every ST thread, there is the Starship Troopers Anime, if you cant put up with it being....well..anime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIZty-Eol4s&t=22s

>>32973890
I'm pretty sure you can squint hard enough and compare any battle to another battle if it fits your agenda or just needs a few tweeks.

>>32975454
Link? I never heard what their plans were...it was a lousy place to end it.

>>32975439
Yes.

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>>32975820

..and I suppose I should mention that in Japan there was a 70s print version of the book that came with several very detailed illustrations depicting scenes taken directly from the book

>>32975820
The anime is more faithful to the book than any other ST movies, shows, game and what not.
The only downside for me is that it has that old low quality 80's anime feel to it. I might need to rewatch it and see if my views changed.

On an other note, I disliked the 3rd movie but it had a really good catchy song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIsv1YOFNys

>>32975820
>put up with it being....well..anime.

Ooh, no can do.
But for some reason I'm glad that exists.

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>>32975924

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>>32975876

>>32975477
Would be better as an HBo Mini Series...all of Heinlien's books would be...though the book where black people become the dominant race after a global nuclear war and white people are just kept alive as food would of course be on Netflicks or MTV and be sponsored by Buzz Feed.

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>>32975946

>>32975531
Other way around. A big war with China basically collapsed the existing government, then veterans more or less built things back up from the local level, with something of a "NEVER AGAIN" mentality.

>>32975516
Oh, shut the fuck up.

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>>32975969

>>32975797
So, all he remembers from his childhood is snappy Hugo Boss uniforms?

>>32975891
http://misterhook.net/roughnecks/synopsis.htm#ep38
The day I rewatched the show and I discovered this website, my heart was broken

>>32975285
Fucking Civilians. No better than the bugs!

>>32976009
He was like 6.

>>32975549
Thing about the Federation and an Idealized future earth, nations and boarders don't exist anymore as we are all part of one global/human species government and everthong is reorganized into just numbered districts and culturaly everywhere is diverse because everyone is everywhere.

I'm sure there is historical mention of pre federation culture centers, but to help the idea of one race and one culture everyone is uprooted and dose a shuffle around the world.


Then you have hardcore militant people who don't want to change and you go the war world route and ship all the dissatints to shitty outer rim penal colony like australia but with thinner air and mountains

>>32975556
It's basically Full Metal Jacket but with a way longer training section, R&R section and more Officers chatting up the meaning of life before a big battle.

>>32976018
>that website
>page last updated in 99
>I can almost hear my AOL connection again

>>32975928
Much like I am Legend and War Of the Worlds, Star Ship Troopers still hasn't had a 100% adaptation to film...though yes, the anime is the closest with big armor suits, lasers and other things.

>>32976123
If you're talking about the movie it also has a far better transition between the training section and the rest of the film.

>>32976131
>people born when that page was last updated can post on 4chan now

>>32975946
Fuck yeah, the ending chapters were awesome.

Seriously, the movie could have had space marine terminators with jet packs karate kicking and wrestling giants spess bugs to death, but no we got guardsmen with stupid huge british rifle.

>>32975969
This is the opening mission when they resque one of their guys who got his spine cut in half by a laser

>>32976009
Pretty much, yeah. Uniforms and falling bombs. He wasn't paying attention to economics and administration...

>>32976174
Yeah, Full Metal Jacket practically seemed like two separate movies. Starship Troopers doesn't really have that problem.

>>32975820
Are you implying thats a bad thing?

The downside to the anime is the quality itself is bad

>>32976131
>page last updated in 99
Jesus Christ. I feel old now. I remember seeing the show in the early 00-01.
Although I am more impressed that this website is still alive

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>>32974234
What does kino mean?

>>32976750
>kino
a gum obtained from certain tropical trees by tapping, used locally as an astringent in medicine and in tanning.

>>32976750
artistic movie. It's a meme.

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>>32976802
>>32976810
Ily guise

>>32975494
>robocop
>moral ambiguity
the movie is about greed and corruption

>>32977088
Robocop himself was motivated by neither greed nor corruption. He was morally ambiguous. Like a robotic Harry Callahan. A cop acting like a cop typically shouldn't, but perhaps acting as the circumstances made necessary.

>>32973907
Except we didn't

>>32973746

But anon, tanks are obsolete due to mobile armor. Those tanks the bugs are using? They're just stupid animals. :^)

>>32977088
Apparently not. Some critics said that it was too fascist which prompted Verhoeven making this movie.
>robotcop is too fascist?
>You want to see fascism? I am going to show you fascism
>makes starship troopers

WE GET YOU SIR!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGHCoVzqtk

>>32973918
To an extent.

More so if bugs were armed with high capacity salt lasers.

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>>32975583

>USAF not being let loose until the end of the war

I have some issues with this statement. Would you care to elaborate one what you mean?

>>32973890
http://www.cracked.com/article_19259_6-mind-blowing-ways-starship-troopers-predicted-future.html

>inb4 Craked
It is back from times they were semi decent

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>>32975876
that looks fucking stupid

>>32975946
> Fall of Constantinople.jpg

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>>32976198
>jet packs karate kicking and wrestling giants spess bugs to death

>>32975051
Well you know about the pre star wars movies?

Most people dont know but it had heavy use of props. The space stations, the landscape etc were all done with props.

And it get mistaken for CGI.

>>32980003
kek

>>32973614
>>32974288
Entire point of that battle was a test by the Psychicer's (SS Officer looking guys) to see if they could Zerg rush the bugs and how well would the forces cope with no support. The fact that thousands died almost pointlessly matters not to the state warmachine

>>32974234
really made me think

>>32977163
Are you Vietnamese?

>all these people posting with opinions taken straight from the RLM review of starship troopers

>>32980101
Apparently it get over some people's heads.
>>32980063
I don't think that true. Surely, the Federation could have sent thousands of people into the meatgrinder just to achieve some vague goal, but this one wasn't really explicitly said in the movie

محد حيفهم اني شكاتب

>>32975669
Ideologically speaking you don't need a single dictator to qualify as a fascist government, any more than China needed Mao to be communist.

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>>32979990
If you want good powered armor, go watch Edge of Tomorrow.

>>32979797
I meant that they weren't allowed to bomb targets in Hanoi or Hanoi's shipyards, leading to a constant resupply of the Viet cong. When Rolling thunder 2 finally kicked off, NV was brought to the negotiating table in weeks. If we had pressed the bombing campaign earlier in the war and followed it with ground assaults the war would've been over by '67

>>32975964
what did he mean by this

>>32979990
Its quite close to how they do it in the book, but there its three layers used as heat shields. And when they break off one layer at a time the amount of trash filling the enemy sensors helps protect the Mobile Suit trooper.

>>32979763
One of the best soundtracks in any movie. goddamn i get shills even now

>>32973591
>Was klendathu a tactical mistake on part of the federation?
hahahahaHAHAHA!
oh yeah.
like, it was the greatest tactical mistake in all movies, including Adam Sandler movies

>>32980165
Considering how callus the government is in ST i could just be the big hats wanting to weed out some voters.

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>>32980572
Bugs have radars ?
As much as I love mech wankfest, I still think future armor looks better

>>32976198
>british rifle
Those were Ruger 5.56 rifles in muzzelite bullpup stocks with extra space stuff on them.

I heard that the standard MI armor and helmets were grey and round to resemble ants. An infantry charge would look like a swarm moving from a distance. It feeds into the "troops mirroring the bugs" philosophy.

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>>32980615
>weed out some voters.
Whoa, the powerful doing everything they can to remain powerful

>>32973890

Dieppe

>>32975516
> I strongly believe the movie was better off without it.

How does it feel being wrong?

>>32980721
No but the skinnies do, in the book.

>>32980721
The book bugs had lasers, ships, alien allies, etc. Sure there were huge swarms like the movie, but in the book about 80% of the bugs were just workers used to distract the MI.

>>32980751
Think about it, the powers at be weeds out the old guard at klendathu and fill the ranks with patriotic young bodies

>>32973890
Mogadishu

>>32980753
>Dieppe
>Sky Marshal Diennes

It was intentional.

>>32980779
Hold the phone, bugs ware sentient ?

>>32980785
Weren't the old guard working as school teachers, training instructors and in the parliament ?

>>32980831
They where an allegory(?) for the mindless masses of the soviet union. So semi sentient

>>32980865
Stop poking holes in my fan theory.

>>32980721

In the book the bugs space ships which fired nuclear missiles and the warrior bugs carried guns.

>>32980932

*bugs had spaceships

They also raided Pluto and Buenos Ares was an orbital strike from a ship

>>32980831
Certain castes were, like the Brain Bugs. There's a few intelligent leaders/planners and millions of hive animal underlings.

>school toilets

>>32980953

They also took prisoners

>>32974302
>As for Verhoeven's movie - fuck knows, it's rule of cool
No it's not. He hated the source material and just tried to make something slightly mirroring it enough to get accepted by the studio while mocking the entire premise of it. Whoever hired him to make that movie got scammed. It's like hiring someone to mow your lawn and they just light it all on fire and say "tada, the grass isn't long anymore!"

>>32973591
Someone watches Red Letter Media

>>32981009
It sucks because I love both Verhoeven's film and Heinlein's book.

From what I heard, Verhoeven read about half the book and decided he hated it. Which is unfortunate because I think he didn't understand it. Heinlein doesn't actually advocate fascism, I mean this is the guy who wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, which is like the most pinko hippy book ever written.

>>32981061

Heinlein didn't do a very good job conveying that ST was supposed to be anti-fascism.

It's a cool story but it's a weak book.

>>32981061
Well first time i read it i almost threw it away aswell. But i was expecting actionfest like the movie was. instead it became JAG, politics and awkward dating.

>>32981082
It's not really a political book, is the problem. But people confuse it for one because there's a lot of politics in it. It's speculative fiction, Heinlein is creating a possible future for Humanity, and then exploring the lives of characters in that scenario. And honestly it's not that implausible of a future. Fascism is morally wrong, but it does produce the kind of results you'd need to unite the Human species and conquer space. The problem is that you do so by trampling on the rights of the people you're supposedly elevating.

>>32975876
The armor is supposed to be much larger than that, have a big rounded head and have pseudomusculature around the body that takes up most of the frame and is the main identifiable feature to most people.
Heinlein literally describes it as "a hydrocephallic gorilla"
Plus the pods are just big tubes closer to what you see in Halo 3 ODST than that sarcophagus

I really hope someone makes an actually good Starship Troopers sometime. Or even better, an adaptation of John Steakley's Armor

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>>32973591
If you wanted to teach a baby a lesson, would you cut its head off? Of course not. You'd paddle it. There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy city with an H-bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an axe. War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him...but to make him do what you want to do. Not killing...but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how—or why—he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals. The statesmen decide why and how much; the generals take it from there and tell us where and when and how. We supply the violence; other people—'older and wiser heads,' as they say—supply the control. Which is as it should be.

>>32981133
I can't think of a single piece of media that actually did the original concept of power armor justice. And it's a crying shame because it's fucking awesome. The Mobile Infantry were basically a horde of steel Hulks bouncing around the battlefield on jetpacks hucking nukes at anything and everything in sight.

>>32981061
>he didn't understand it
wew lad

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>>32981178
are you pic related?

>>32981130
Civilians have every right of Citizens except suffrage and you can get suffrage by spending 2 years shoveling pseodog shit in a trench on mars.
It's not fascist, there is no command economy, noultranationalist military structure (Skinnies eventually ally alongside the Humans and there is no mention of further subjugation), and no supreme leadership as all non-military leaders are decided by Citizen Vote.

It is Athenian Democracy, and it's still pretty limpwristed even at that since, again, you never have to pull Active Duty to be given Citizenship.
Outside of the military structure the general population we get to see, i.e. Buenos Aires and that one planet that's basically a military base, appear to be pretty staunchly conservative in reaction to the exact kind of liberal social laissez-faire that we're seeing today - but if you read that as fascist, you're retarded.

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>>32981178

>>32981182
The 1970s Japanese print of the book and the 1980s OVA are decent, but still not great.

>>32981221
Yeah the OVA is the closest I've seen to the original concept. Edge of Tomorrow feels like they're a couple generations before full Heinlein power armor, but well on their way to it.

>>32981182
fallout,crysis,mass effect etc etc

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>tfw the Japanese eventually realized that America has copyright law

>>32981245
>fallout
Looks pretty close, but feels too limited (due to game balance).

>crysis
Feels pretty close, but looks more like a Superhero outfit than power armor

>mass effect
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I love ME for it's quality alien waifus, but there isn't a single thing in that entire franchise weapons/armor wise that feels gritty or like it has weight. They look like power rangers.

>>32981009
I seriously doubt whatever exec was a die-hard fan of the book. They just wanted to use the rights to make a profit, I guarantee you.

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>>32981178
>Statesmen and generals
>In a setting where only veterans can vote
>Implying the statesmen wouldn't all be former generals

>>32981182
https://youtu.be/cZc6cr6G2E4?t=282
(04:42 if you embed)

>>32975357
I swear it pays off way more to have legit things then CGI.

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>>32981182

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anyone on /k/ watched the recovered and mostly restored Starship Troopers OVA's from 88?

It functions more as a companion piece to the book as a good chunk of it's 6 episodes are dedicated to exploring things that were footnotes tor Juans experiences in the book i.e. "The training mission that turned into a real fight against bugs" and the "firefighting exercise that turned out to be a real attack"

The OVA's probably keep closest to the source material (especially the power suits) but they change the bugs to be less insectoid and more like jellyfish with carapaces that vomit EMP plasma that traps you in your gear for a few seconds burning you before it detonates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAV-VyXfc48

What a coincidence this came out yesterday, it's from /tv/'s favorite kino experts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkEdyq3UE5M

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>>32981433
They had to stop when they realized that it wasn't a public domain story.

If it weren't for the Starship Troopers name, I don't think anyone would remember it.

>>32981329
atlas mech

>>32981377
You don't have to achieve a high military rank to gain citizenship and/or become an elected official
Read the fucking book

>>32981231
Starcraft Marines look about right, but give them jet packs and nukes.

40K assault Marines work, but they don't have nuclear rocket launchers.

The Roughnecks show had the Marauder walkers, those seemed to get mostly there. The tabletop RPG featured exosuits, which fit the aesthetic perfectly.

>>32973890
Emu war

>>32981467
the OVA's are fairly dry, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who isn't already a fan of the original novel.

I'd toss out Metal Skin Panic Madox-01 for anyone wanting good Power Armor action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7T-6ThKoJ0

>>32981329
The matrix animated spinoff, specifically the second Renaissance has some nightmare fuel scenes with human power armors battling the machines. The episodes are legitimately disturbing as fuck though.

>>32981501
>starcraft

naaaaw if Edge of tomorrows suits had armor on them they would be perfect, they are already gorilla like

>>32981433
Looks like some MD Geist shit

>>32981342
michael ironside was really the only saving part of the film desu, they killed the intellectual property the worse than B movie sequels are proof of that
honestly the only one making any profit off that was really verhoven

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>>32981567
The Heavy units are almost there. They just need jetpacks and more agility with a little more protection.

>>32980721
What is that WebM from?

>>32973591
>reading into a movie
>a movie that intentionally waters down the book so much so that it becomes a mediocre war flick
Read the book

Protip: if you think the book is boring, you've never been in the same room as a member of the military.

>>32975964
>tfw no Double Star film
>tfw no face

>>32981484
Daishi master race, Atlas a shit

>>32980721
we drive east
moving right to left
east to west
am I the only one?

>>reading right to left
>>just like my magnas

>>32980865
Or maybe they just wanted more officers? In the original book, the only way to become an officer was to first serve in the mobile infantry as a grunt.

>>32982825
its like potery
it rhymes

The Morita rifles in the movie don't even have sights
And despite the protip the intelligence officer has given them, the basic MI grunts (not COs/NCOs) can't even shoot the nerve cluster

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>>32982875
I thought it was implied that the helmet had an integrated huds.
During the training incident, Breckinridge said that his helmet had a malfunction which prevented him of seeing.
In some old (although bootlegged) materials, I remember seeing that the MI's helmets were supposed to be equipped with glasses. (after looking it up, the helmet were supposed to have visors but they got cut from production)
But yeah the typical MI grunt were not accurate. It's like playing a fps game and only using the crosshair instead of aiming down sight

>>32973890
The Zulus at Islandwana zerg rushed a British force that had recently crossed into their kingdom following bad intelligence and recon.

>>32973890
>is there any IRL paralel to klendathu?
Welp, bugs are literally commies and humans are Nazis, so, how do you think?

>>32983085
Barney Stinson can shoot the rifle without the helmet, nor the optic, nor an iron sight. He shot the arachnid wearing a dress uniform

Grunts are fucking dumb

>>32983219
Barney was also a fucking psycher who could probably tear the bug apart with his mind

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>>32981559
The scene in the Second Renaissance with the trooper being dragged out of the APU minus his limbs fucked me right up as a kid. Overall it's great, I can't think of any other animated film that is so unsettling.

>>32983364
At the time it freaked me out too.

Looking back, it's like watching a zombie siege where the defending troops have HMGs, artillery and napalm but the zombies are immune to all that because magic.

>bots weak to EMP
>nukes #1 source of EMP
>lol nukes ineffective

>>32982825
>east means to the right
baka desu

>>32981213
Not true. You are not guaranteed the right to a family and serving expediates the process (paper work). Additionally all leaders are former military (can't run unless you serve) and the gov has issues with religious folks (Mormon colony massacre at the start cause by them fleeing fed territory)

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>>32981433

I've seen it a couple times and I have to say I actually prefer it to the American version, even considering some of the choppy animation

>>32983831
that is literally all movie-only shit and not at all in the book

>>32973591

when I first saw the movie I thought the biggest mistake the federation made was not showing us denise richards' tits but then when I saw Wild Things a few years later and they turned out to be misshapen and horrible I realized that federation brass made the right choice

>>32983500
The companion guide said the bots went underground or shut down after the first nuclear strike. Afterwards the humans couldn't get in range to fire them anymore because the bots defensive technology was too advanced.

>>32983831
Service isn't just military though. In fact most people don't serve in the fleet or the mobile infantry. They shovel shit or do paperwork, for two years, and then they're Citizens. The military aspect is accentuated because the book is about the military.

>>32981888
Generation War

>>32983732
Have you looked at a compass recently?

>>32984480
If you're facing North, East is on your right. But the first part of that sentence is kind of important.

>>32984492
>East is on your right
Exactly.

>>32984500
Except when you're facing South.

>>32981182

The part I loved was that each drop pod/vehicle minus the actual powerarmor was meant to fragment on its way into the atmosphere and act as chaff. Something that also doesn't seem to be reflected in any media.

>>32981178
>If you wanted to teach a baby a lesson, would you cut its head off?

This assumes I give a shit about what happens to the baby and the baby didn't just launch an attack on my country.

>>32982825
It really would have been better if they had flipped the shot.

>>32984168
The cartoon made it seem like the mean old humans nuked the poor machines dat dindu nuffin. Then some BS about how their bodies were immune to radiation kept them alive despite taking humanity's strategic stockpile point blank. I don't remember them making anything militaristic till after the bombardment.

God, the franchise had so much promise.

>>32981133
> an adaptation of John Steakley's Armor

Sweet Jesus that would be amazing

>>32981245
Fallout and Mass Effect, no

If the Crysis armor was 800lbs heavier and strapped with nukes and a jetpack, yes

>>32983085
In the book they didn't have a HUD exactly. It was a mirror positioned to reflect some information displayed on the lower part of the helmet iirc been a few years since I read the book but it was explained during the training portion of the book

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>>32981133
Invasion was pretty good. CGI tits and Rico in this badass.

>>32984809
>Fallout
>Not having nukes and a jetpack

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>>32984859

>>32984858
still incredibly advanced thinking for the '50s

>>32984984
Snake? Snake?! SNAAAAAAAAAAKE?!

>>32984888

Fair enough

>>32973591
Well they learned.

Hence why in Starship Troopers 3 they had little mecha marauders with christian crosses that wiped out shitloads of bugs.

>>32973963
The defense grid is made after the attack on Buenos Ares. That clip they showed in the beginning of it was a flash forward, since it immediately followed footage of the invasion of Klendathu.

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>>32973890

I believe Heinlein himself said Gallipoli was the primary inspiration for Klendathu

>>32985175
The battle of klendathu in the novel was nothing like the film though.

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>>32981182
This ancient video game called Terra Nova is basically a straight up game adaption of the mobile infantry from the novel

>>32984763
It really would, like next-level Monty Oum shit with Felix fucking jackhammering down beaches at 75mph firing the barrel out of his lascannon

>>32985319
>like next-level Monty Oum shit
So, plagiarized as fuck then?

>>32985330
>being this much of an anal-retentive faggot

thread theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGHCoVzqtk

>>32984536

NO U

It bothered me how the suits didn't seem to have anything but flamethrowers, nukes and grenade dispensers. I mean a heavy machinegun would have served them pretty well on several occasions

>>32974302
>So think of it as something similar to the wars against terrorist groups today - yes we CAN just blow them back to the stone age but that isn't stopping them because they have, for the purpose of analogy, an ideological hivemind. We have to have boots on the ground to intercept and either capture or kill these leaders to cut off the head of the snake.

Only idiots believe "Islam can't be defeated".

Place an Armored Cavalry Regiment and order them to incinerate anything that lies in front of them. *Poof*, the ideology of Islam disappears.

>>32985319
>next-level Monty Oum shit
How does it feel that his death dramatically improved the industry and its future?

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>>32975110
>The movie is supposed to be introspective into some of the behavior that humans also are capable of; including being convinced that being brainless, cannon fodder drones while believing you're doing a service to a "higher power", is somehow better than whatever the bugs are doing.

That's the wrong message. It was about the collective destiny of humanity, organized under fascism, as the only true path towards interstellar civilization.

>>32985415
I heard a theory that the flame thrower was some kind of variable effect plasma gun. In the skinny raid he talks about using a cutting beam, so there's that. I don't think a machinegun would be very effective though, remember that the bug tactics relied on the cap troopers burning through ammo on workers and then getting sucker punched by a warrior that was hiding in the swarm.

But yeah, loved this book when I was a kid, and I used to make my Marines read it when the got to my platoon.

>>32973591
The fuck up on Klendathu was a mix of human arrogance and politics. The political figures ensured that humans were the superior race. So they did a large propaganda campaign to rally the people into believing they could zerg rush the bugs.


The only reason to send in infantry to planets like that is to protect research teams or to protect colonies. Against such a huge population of hostiles it would be wasteful and pointless when you could just napalm them or develop a disease that could wipe them out over a long period before they develop immunity to it.

Only then i would send infantry for a final sweep of the planet.

>>32973591
>let's zerg rush an opponent extremely good at zerg rushing
>on top of a tunnel system

Honest to god they should've just gassed large portions of the planet, then drop an anti-bug fungus or something.

Of course then it wouldn't be as political or as entertaining.

>>32985311

I didnt know anybody but me and my mom knew that game existed

>>32985653
>remember that the bug tactics relied on the cap troopers burning through ammo on workers and then getting sucker punched by a warrior that was hiding in the swarm.
Even then, wouldn't you get more mileage out of a high velocity .50 bullet than napalm relative to bulk? And like you said, there's the raid on the skinnies in which they apparently used the same weapon loadout as against the bugs for some reason. It would seem like a good idea to for example bring a large amount of XXXL sized claymores against the bugs.

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>>32984859

Invasion was idiotic and inhuman (which makes sense, since the Japanese are never capable of portraying humanity since they lack souls).

The only good part of it was tits and the few seconds of power armor.

>>32985829
It's criminally underappreciated. Awesome complexity and fucking beautiful levels with huge draw distance.

I'm working on a spiritual sequel on my own by the way. Much of the UI and weapon code is done but there will be a lot of rewrites as I learn.

>>32985653

I got the plasma gun vibe as well when I read it

>>32973890
>is there any IRL paralel to klendathu?
Bay Of Pigs

>>32985885
post here when its done and I will play.

my now 57 year old mother will also play it

>>32985980
Alternatively, Afghanistan/Iraq. Seriously. I don't think 9/11 was a controlled demolition or anything, but I think it was allowed to happen.

>>32985994
>https://webmshare.com/play/KExrV
Early/placeholder stuff mind you.

>>32986026
>Afghanistan/Iraq
At the begging ware probably one of the most successful military operations in history of mankind

>>32973890
Gallipoli easy.

>>32979990
it was pretty badass in 2000

>>32980454
Pretty fun movie but I wasn't a fan of the armor. All that power just to make them fast and strong? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use it to carry a ton of armor, heavier weapons, and ammo? It's like if the designers were imagining a tank battle and replaced all the tanks with 007 style spy-cars. Awesome to watch though

>>32986590
>All that power just to make them fast and strong?
Sounds like the most realistic combat use of powered armor imho.

The only actual use for powered armor in the next 50 years or so will be for disaster relief (like rescuing people from collapsed buildings and shit), firefighting and maybe bomb diffusal. And they'll be hooked up to external generators with long cables in those cases.

>>32985415

I'm pretty sure they had laser weapons as well, and the missile launchers could fire a variety of warheads, not just nuclear ones.

>>32985415
conventional ballistics aren't as logistically effective to transport as a universally-powered weapon like the flamethrowers and missile launchers. In the book Johnny talks about being low on "bomb juice and go juice", so we can assume the suits are simplified to use one of two universal power sources for the weapons.

>>32985559
Not if you don't kill the ideological extremist leaders, you retard. They'll just train up the next generation of educated, ready-minded adolescents while subjugating the useful idiots as their mass force

>>32985791
>Honest to god they should've just gassed large portions of the planet, then drop an anti-bug fungus or something.
These exact tactics (glassing and pathological bombing) are used in the book. Heinlein was way ahead of his time.

>>32986590
>Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use it to carry a ton of armor, heavier weapons, and ammo?
Have you read up on tank tactics?
Extra armor and carrying capacity will always run the risk of being defeated by a single man-portable anti-armor weapon. The PRIMARY thing that makes Main Battle Tanks viable in open country is their extreme agility and ability to place accurate fire while maintaining that speed.
Conversely, this is why tanks suffer the worst on their own in urban environments, though these hypothetical powered suits, esp. Heinleins, perform well in those environments thanks to their three-dimensional movement capabilities.

>>32985791
>Honest to god they should've just gassed large portions of the planet, then drop an anti-bug fungus or something.
They didn't do exactly that for a specific reason: they wanted to catch a brain bug alive.

(in the book)

>>32986939
They even toned down the gas grenades they had been using earlier so that the MI troops going into tunnels wouldn't accidentally gas a Brain Bug before capturing it. Heinlein knew his shit.

>>32986914
Check out the data from the crimea conflict: Heavily armored tanks are more important than ever, and most tanks are destroyed by other tanks. Lighter fighting vehicles get fucking raped by artillery + drone spotting though

>>32986949
Almost wish he'd written a straight up tacticool warfare novel and a companion piece for the political stuff.

>>32986982
>Check out the data from the crimea conflict: Heavily armored tanks are more important than ever, and most tanks are destroyed by other tanks
In a situation where Tanks are fighting other Tanks. In Starship Troopers, the MI are not fighting a symmetrical force; they are engaged in an asymmetrical warfare situation against massive numbers of what are basically infantry soldiers at very close range.
If we apply that to the Tank analogy, this is the exact situation that gets Tanks fucked up by ATGW all across the Middle East, especially by less experienced or less trained commanders - they get caught up in an environment where they can't use their mobility effectively and are zerg rushed.
Heinlein's idea of Mobile Infantry works around this particular problem really well and is pretty solid tactical thinking, at least for this particular war.

>>32987047
Oh yeah I meant the real world in that post.
>If we apply that to the Tank analogy, this is the exact situation that gets Tanks fucked up by ATGW all across the Middle East, especially by less experienced or less trained commanders - they get caught up in an environment where they can't use their mobility effectively and are zerg rushed.
I think further development and increased used of active protection systems will shift this back in the favor of the tanks soon.

>Heinlein's idea of Mobile Infantry works around this particular problem really well and is pretty solid tactical thinking, at least for this particular war.
The mobile infantry is brilliant. The problems with it are technical, in that there's no way store all the energy they'd need to function as written (batteries for pseudomuscles, rocket fuel for thrusters) in real life.

A typical real life exo suit infantryman will be a dude wearing a muscle harness, a smart munition mortar and a lot of ammo along with a normal rifle I think

>>32975669
>Do people really think that being militaristic = fascism now
Well that is one element of fascism (actual fascism), but yes. People think nationalism and defending the interests of your nation is fascism now.

>>32975285
How would he know this when that ship was destroyed with all hands except for said pilot?

>>32975592
So was the new Sky Marshals strategy after Klendathu. Big K was basically Tarawa but way worse.

>>32975531
Someone didn't pay attention to the book. It's not JUST veterans, it's just joining the fleet or MI is the easiest way to get citizenship.

>>32980140
>>32977163
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hqYGHZCJwk

>>32976305
Not at the time, but he could have opened a fucking book in the 50 years between his childhood and making a movie satirizing fascism.

>>32987253
The ship survived Big K only to get destroyed when they captured the brain bug. It is a perfect way to destroy any evidence if I say so myself

>>32987426
That's what I mean though, who would be spreading this story when the only people that know would basically be the bridge crew and they all died. It's not like they'd be in a dive bar spilling the details either.

>>32987476
Probably when the federation mobilized their forces after the asteroid struck Buenos Aires. All ship were stationed at the mobile space station deep inside bug space afterall

>>32980874
>People's Republic of China
ftfy

>>32981377
Stop being fucking dumb.

>>32985016
Heinlein was a fucking genius.

>>32974037

honestly more like kursk.

>>32987503
Fair point

>>32980732

>Those were Ruger 5.56 rifles in muzzelite bullpup stocks with extra space stuff on them

Don't forget the M60 flash hiders.

honestly, as much as i loved the book, i sympathize with the film very much.

the federation military described by heinlein is too logical and too perfect, and i think it's perfectly acceptable to mock that.

irl, military leadership is just insane, and honestly you have to be insane to do controlled violence.

>>32974368
Dude, Starship Troopers is one my favorite novels (Warhammer 40k fag here) and the original work is essentially a humanisation of fascist ideaology. It's also fucking fabulous, and thought provoking, and the movie is a pile of dogshit.

>>32975439
Yes also

>>32988093
lol bookwanker

>>32985885
That game was so based. Please link me to your game!

>>32988093
book sucked. movie was better.

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>>32984601

It does in the late 1990s CGI Roughnecks Chronicles TV series.

It's a fantastic show, by the way.

>>32984858
nigga that's what a HUD is

You'd have a video monitor, basically, sticking straight up, sitting in front of the instrument panel, and then there's a pane of glass at an angle, which reflects some of the light from the monitor at the pilot, while still being, yanno, glass, so you can see through it too.

>>32975583
>underestimation of the enemy
bait, Americans were fighting a defensive war and winning, the Tet offense was seen as a failure by the vietcong until they saw how the weak liberals back in America reacted.

Knowing they couldn't win a actual war but make the Americans win the war for them.

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>>32973890
Franco-Prussian War (at least for the French).

>>32977163
America lost 0 engagements in Vietnam but they lost the war because the Vietnamese hit them where it hurt the most, back home. Kill support for a war and there's no more war.

>>32973890
Basically everything pre and post 9/11, which is why I love the story.

>>32973890
Pearl Harbor

I tried to read the book when I was in middle school if I recall. I found it boring back then. Now I am in university and I was wondering if I would still dislike it as much as I did when I was a kid.
This is someone who absolutely loved the cgi show, first movie and the most recent cgi movie

>>32974633
Invasion was leaps and bounds better than hero of the federation, and Marauder (return of Casper van dien was neat)

>Starship troopers
>Invasion
>Marauder
>Smashing actual spiders with GI joes
>Hero of the federation

>>32989993
in what fucking way did that battle classify as pearl harbor ?