Submarine thread

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Type 212 and derivatives.

>>32906333
Man, that is one sexy sub...

For post-WWII I'd have to say the Typhoon or Los Angeles class, with the Victor or Alfa for second place

Ohio class for the win

>>32906446
Why'd it fail so much? Just stupidly bad luck? Too tiny of a payload?

>>32906468
Torpedo pistols were terribly unreliable in ww2

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SSG-577 Growler has the best unit patch.

>>32906468
I think it had something to (at least with the US torpedoes) with the earth's magnetic field. The tests were done off the New England coast, but the actual war patrols were done halfway across the world, where the magnetic field was was different, which meant the magnetic detonators they sometimes used were fucked.

Also, when the sun skippers took the issue to the torpedo manufacturer they were given a big middle finger and the excuse that "we make our torps to the finest quality, you just don't know how to use them"

Anyway it wasn't until late 1943 or early 1944 that the Navy finally fixed the issues.

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This. Anyone who says otherwise needs a break from their serious reality.

The freedom of this in the world of 150 years ago must be amazing.

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>tfw it just disappeared

>>32906225
>thumbnail related

ftfy

>>32906748
He was still trapped by his own demons though.

>>32906869
Fuckin japs get all the credit for monster subs with their I-400s, too bad Surcouf didn't get to see more action, I bet it would have been devastating in combat

>basically the only thing France got even remotely right in the Second World War

USS John Wayne Gacy

ops ship is called u2540

>>32906225
This ship is called U-2540

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>>32906225
Project 705 Lira. Was too dandy for this gay earth.

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Balao-class, USS Stingray (SS-161) to be exact, best known for slipping between the props of an oil tanker to lose a nuclear sub tracking her during war games in the mid 90s.

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>>32906225
Like there is any other submarine worth riding.

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Pure sex, not even bong

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>mfw im going out on patrol less than two weeks after reporting to my boomer
t. Navyfag on transfer leave

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My favorite is the type 7 U-boat and it's variants. This boat was the work horse of the Kriegsmarine putting a stranglehold on allied shipping. Also I played ungodly amounts of silent hunter so my opinion is skewed

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>>32912623
Reminder that Churchill said the u boat menace was the only thing that ever really frightened him during World War Two

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>>32912657
Also men of the u boat service suffered from something like 75% casualties with about 30 thousand men dying over the course of the war. Also there theater of operation stretched from Murmansk to the tip of South Africa and everything in between

>>32912365
It was too loud and manning/maintenance intensive for this earth. It was the loudest second/third gen boat built in any service. The pierside rewarmers to keep the lead-bismuth coolant liquid never really worked well and after a near rupture due to heat exchanger solidification on K-64 in '73 they were forced to keep all the reactors at minimum 10% critical in port, shortening reactor life and increasing manning requirements from their most highly trained set of sailors. Even the automation was problematic, requiring mini-refits with every return to port and 20% higher manning than design on patrol.

They were in many ways beautiful boats and technical marvels, but as operational SSNs they were mostly failures. The VMF should have kept K-64 as an interesting one-off (a la SSN 575 Seawolf, SSRN 586 Triton, SSGN 587 Halibut, SSN 597 Tullibee, etc.), studied it and kept the tech that worked in the Victor III/p.671 and Akula/Shchuka p.971 boats. Though in fairness they really didn't get the automation truly working until recently with the Yasen boats, and the added complexity is still playing merry hell trying to get them built and in commission.

>>32912391
Down Periscope was a fascinating documentary.

>>32906957

Aren't we all? How does that change anything??

I'm caught in a retarded and cryptic feedback loop between psychics and time travellers. We all have our demons.

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The Norwegian gov has finalized talks with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems to purchase four subs based on the 212 design that is in use with Italia and Germany.

The four subs will be replacing the six Ula class subs that are currently in service.

>>32906446
folded a thousand times

>>32906663
The germans also had notorious issues with there magnetic torps too particularly during the invasion of norway.

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>>32913083
You do realise it didn't have to operate exclusively at high speed, the only condition in which the high noise level notion is relevant? As for maintenance, this project was one of its kind technological marvel. Naturally it was a bit raw.

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>>32912365
the lira wil be reborn in the form of husky!
http://russia-insider.com/en/russias-master-plan-its-next-class-deadly-submarines-laid-out/ri13913

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>>32913214
Here is some info from wiki

Captain Wilhelm Zahn of U-56 was so depressed by the evident futility of his efforts that he needed to be briefly relieved of duty by Admiral Karl Dönitz in order to compose himself, while the civilian Naval Ordnance Corps, responsible for torpedo development and maintenance, continued to insist the U-boat captains were somehow at fault. Estimates of the failure rate of T2 torpedoes for one reason or another range between 20% and 40%

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>>32912365

>>32912465
Anon, you really should know better than to giving anything out on boomer ops, especially as a fucking crank. Not what baboon ass tastes like, not how bad COB's breath is, not what your personal SAPFU is, or every chief on the boat is going to use your pucker mouthed bass for a pisshole the entire patrol.

So start getting a leg up with some pre-study on your qual list if you don't want to end up on the dink list and get the fuck off /k/ if you want your fish.

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>>32913221
>Russian analysts estimate that the next-generation submarines will displace no more than about 6,000-tons—though obviously a ballistic missile submarine variant would be much larger. That could mean that another Soviet innovation might make a comeback—liquid metal cooled reactors.
Please, modern technology, make this happen.

>>32913220
>the only condition in which the high noise level notion is relevant?
This is not accurate. They were far louder than Victor I boats at any speed, due to the fact that the pumps were necessarily louder to circulate that liquid metal coolant and the fact that, metal being a much better conductor of sound than water, the entire boat resonated with pump sounds from every primary coolant loop contact point.

Also, minimum output levels for the reactor were significantly higher than for pressurized water designs due to the minimum thermal load threshold in the coolant loop, again to keep the coolant liquid. This, again, meant that minimum noise radiation output profile was higher than similar boats of the time.

Finally, there was also the significant safety risk. Once SCRAMed for any length of time, neither of the two Alfa reactors could return to operational status without a near complete rebuild of the reactor compartment, again due to solidified coolant in any of the three primary heat exchangers.

As I said, it was in many ways a technical marvel but it also had significant and serious operational drawbacks.

>>32913319
Being generally louder didn't necessarily make them too loud and with its upper hand in speed it's not like it was that much of a disadvantage anyway. It had nothing to do with the coolant and everything to do with the pumps. What I mean to say is that the drawbacks were due to technological imperfection of its time, not due to the overall design being flawed.

>>32913097
Kelsey Grammer's shining moment IMO

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T class.

>>32913554
>Being generally louder didn't necessarily make them too loud and with its upper hand in speed it's not like it was that much of a disadvantage anyway.
Anon. You really need to take some time and read up on cold war sub ops. The massive, glaring weakness of Soviet boats throughout the cold war was just how long it took them (late 80's, when they finally started implementing screw production methods bought/stolen from the west) to prioritize sensor performance and reduced noise signature over all other parameters.

In sub ops, especially for an attack boat expected to hunt boomers and CSG/SAGs, hearing your enemy first while being quiet enough that they don't hear you is job #1, and jobs 2-10 as well. Everything else comes after that. Going fast and deep is great, but if you never know where your enemies are until after you've got fish coming down your throat in active, you are meat.

>>32913554
>What I mean to say is that the drawbacks were due to technological imperfection of its time, not due to the overall design being flawed.
This is incorrect. Without massive additions to dampening systems at every conceivable contact point for the entire reactor vessel, primary coolant and steam loops, liquid metal reactors will by nature propogate a higher fraction of produced sound. Again, basic physics here: liquid metal conducts sound better than pressurized water. This means much, much more extensive and complex baffling even in steam loops in addition to the massive added complexity in dampeners.

The maintenance, manning, safety (in addition to no SCRAM, don't forget about no ability for emergency direct seawater cirulation through the primary loop) and disposal/refueling nightmare of liquid metal reactors in general further adds to the cost column. Balance this against the benefits of more efficient heat exchange, faster safe changes in reactor state and better power density rating for the entire plant while considering that the the margins on all these characteristics is far narrower now than it was during the 60s and 70s with all the pressurized water reactor research of the last 50 years. Ask yourself: is it worth it?

Nuclear submarine getting underway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjF8xj93LU

>>32913675
That is unless you are fast enough to outmanoeuvre a torpedo and keep your track of the enemy sub anyway.
>>32913686
The use of electromagnetic pumps in general makes LFR far more silent and the liquid metal fast reactor research isn't stuck in the 70s either.

>>32914065
>The use of electromagnetic pumps in general makes LFR far more silent and the liquid metal fast reactor research isn't stuck in the 70s either.
Feel free to source me operational EM pumps in any deployed naval reactor design. When you fail to do this, stop and ask yourself why that might be.

>>32914065
>That is unless you are fast enough to outmanoeuvre a torpedo and keep your track of the enemy sub anyway.
Anon, if you're not even educated enough in sub ops matters to know about and understand things like the inverse relationship between speed and sensor efficiency due to flow noise among other things, then you really have zero place commenting on the pros and cons of historical platforms.

It doesn't matter what boat you're in, anywhere in the world, if you're doing 30+ knots you can run over an operating underwater drilling rig with a college football marching band playing inside it while dynamite fishing for dinner and you'd never hear it until your bulkheads started crumpling.

Once you're forced into defensive maneuvering of that sort, you are at a massive counterdetection disadvantage. Meanwhile, the other boat can track you from several orders of magnitude further than you could possible track it.

Also, the Alfa is not faster than an ADCAP. It'd be a truly piss-poor sub driver who took warshots at an Alfa and let the fish go off-wire terminal, fast and active, from far enough out to give the Alfa the sea room to get up to flank and run the fish out of fuel. Countermeasures could defeat them. But this myth that a sub gets from steerageway to flank in 10 seconds flat and can outrun a well planned torp salvo is like believing a 747 can kinematically defeat a SAM.

>>32906225

As much as I hate to like something Wehrbroo's like, but the Type VIIIC boats are still the best looking subs ever put to sea. They are just so emblematic of what an attack submarine should look like. I guess as Runner Up it would be the Alpha class. Love those sleak boats and dat reactor.

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I have to admit to being just a tad biased here, I actually work there and build these beasts.

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>all this shit shooting about AESTHETIC boats
>no one posts a Skipjack

Fucking shame, /k/.

>>32914269
fuck you

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>>32906225

>>32914211
>Feel free to source me operational EM pumps in any deployed naval reactor design. When you fail to do this, stop and ask yourself why that might be.
This is not an argument.
>Meanwhile, the other boat can track you from several orders of magnitude further than you could possible track it.
That is if it detects you first. You keep assuming the scenario is Alfa just randomly dashing through Atlantic at 40 kts, not silent running in search for a target.
>Alfa is not faster than an ADCAP
ADCAP was developed in response to Alfa on the first place.

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>>32914448

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>>32914304
Meanwhile, in real life.

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>>32914463

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>>32914479

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>>32914499

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>>32914499

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>>32914520

>>32914459
>This is not an argument.
Yes, it is. If, as you claim, the benefits of liquid metal cooled naval reactors outweigh the drawbacks, then why is no one building and deploying them anymore? The US and Soviets both deployed and extensively tested boats with liquid metal reactors. They've both continued testing them through the years and playing with different configurations. But neither have put one in a surface ship or submarine since the SSN 575 Seawolf and Alfa/Lira class respectively. Explain why this is so if you are correct.

>That is if it detects you first. You keep assuming the scenario is Alfa just randomly dashing through Atlantic at 40 kts, not silent running in search for a target.
You keep completely ignoring the point that AT ALL SPEEDS the Alfa was significantly louder than its contemporaries. Combined with the Soviet deficit in sonar hardware and software efficiency, and there are very few situations where an Alfa sneaks up on a Sturgeon given equal speed. Period.

>ADCAP was developed in response to Alfa on the first place.
Which should be telling you something. Which is the cheaper and more efficient solution? Developing a faster, deeper diving torpedo or building an entire class of faster, deeper diving boats?

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>>32914536

>>32914499
>Ah, yes, and here we have the Typhoon/Akula in its natural habitat. Due to its sluggish and injury-prone nature, it can almost always be found here in its cave, being fed and cared for by its smaller cousins and parasites. Note how large her teeth are, and how sharp they are from almost no use.

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>>32914562

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>>32914580

>>32914545
Because the Cold War is over, duh. How many nuclear submarine classes were developed in last 27 years in Russia and US? 1,5? It's not like liquid metal reactors didn't evolve since then.
>You keep completely ignoring the point that AT ALL SPEEDS the Alfa was significantly louder than its contemporaries
You keep saying this, but do you have any fact to back this claim up?
>Which should be telling you something
It tells me that you are on your way to the implication that tanks are useless because of ATGM and fighters are useless because of SAM and you are closing to this implication at speeds by far exceeding the top speed of Shkval torpedo.

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>>32914632

>>32906414
too bad she's rusting to shit

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>>32914652

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>>32914663

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>>32914682

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>>32914697

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Bismarck

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>>32914712

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>>32914731

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>>32914743

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>>32914697
That feel when still no Kazan.

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>>32914761

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>>32914748

>>32906446
I can just imagine the rage going on trapped in that sub with those mark 14s lel

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>>32914748
>>32914787

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>>32914766
soon!

>>32906468
There was something with the firing pin actually where it wouldn't fire on a direct 90-degree impact, the torpedo had to hit the target at an angle to get the firing pin to actually do its job. US torpedoes in WWII were shit.

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The scale.

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>>32914269
Biased as well since I've had the luck to get a tour on this one.

>>32914637
Not that dude, but face it man you got beat.

>>32914637
>How many nuclear submarine classes were developed in last 27 years in Russia and US?
This is a strawman. The question is "How many submarine classes have been put to sea since the last liquid metal cooled reactor boats in the US and USSR/Russia (SSN 575 and Alfa respectively)?" The answer:
>For the US, since the March 1957 commissioning of Seawolf, 16 different classes or unique nuclear sub designs have been commissioned. Not a single one with a liquid metal cooled reactor
>For the USSR/Russia, since the December 1971 commissioning of K-64, 21 class or unique nuclear sub designs were commissioned. Not a single one with a liquid metal cooled reactor.
That's 37 total classes or unique boats designed since the respective test cases, not even counting surface ship reactors. NOT A SINGLE LMC REACTOR.

Explain yourself.

>You keep saying this, but do you have any fact to back this claim up?
Someone never served. Again, read a book. Start with any of the Norman Polmar classic spec books, then move on to post-1991 Soviet sources clearly stating the Alfa was significantly louder than the Victor III, a contemporary in their service. If you keep looking, you'll find that the Victor III was louder than 688 or Sturgeon boats. And, no, there are no direct sound profile data comparisons across different speed regimes publicly available. In fact, the Victor IIIs were barely quieter than Skipjack class boats, and Alfas were roughly as loud as they were. This is all ballpark common knowledge in the bubblehead community across all national lines.

>It tells me that you are on your way to the implication that tanks are useless because of ATGM and fighters are useless because of SAM and you are closing to this implication at speeds by far exceeding the top speed of Shkval torpedo.
This, again, is a strawman. People still develop and build top of the line aircraft and tanks. No one builds naval liquid metal cooled reactors. Do I need a hammer to get this through to you?

>>32914637
>>32914904
Here's a blog post with several sources in US and Chinese Naval Warfare Journals giving surprisingly ballpark accurate information on relative emissions levels in current submarines:
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2016/10/submarine-noise.html
That's four different sources in the US and Chinese naval communities supporting my assertion.

>>32914637
>>32914904
One final note on the Alfa/Lira class:
If the maintenance, manning and safety issues were not true, and if the boat was as quiet as you suggest at anything but high speed, then why were they among the very first to be retired when funds got tight? Only one Alfa made it past 1990 (maximum less than 12 years service), and that one was retired in 1996 (less than 19 years service). The K-64 was retired and scrapped after only 2.5 years service (remember? catastrophic heat exchanger damage?).

Meanwhile, the Victor I and II boats, and a great many November class boats, outlasted all but one of the Alfas, in spite of being commissioned earlier.

>>32914904
No, you. The real question is how many nuclear submarine classes were developed since the last liquid metal reactor submarine was decommissioned. The answer is about 1,5. You already have a class of borderline experimental extremely expensive and complicated fast hunter/killers. Not even a superpower can afford two. Russia didn't stop developing liquid metal reactors since then.
>No one builds naval liquid metal cooled reactors.
Because there's nowhere to put them, dummy. To build a naval liquid metal reactor you first need to develop a vessel for it. We'll see if this new Russian sub will have one.
>Someone never served
Someone served at Alfa or Schuka-B? Sorry, what? No? Okay then, next time bring something but half a century old damage control about Echo II class harassing USS Enterprise or Victor class stealing all the way up to the Sargasso Sea unseen.

>>32915054
I never said maintenance issue was not true. And liquid metal reactors are far safer.
>The K-64 was retired and scrapped after only 2.5 years service
A revolutionary design had problems? No shit, sherlock.

>>32906468
Several reasons. Google for details.
1. Depth keeping was shit. The sensor outlet was affected by speed but not recognized, so torpedoes ran too deep and made a large sine wave profile.
2. Magnetic exploder did not account for magnetic field changes when not at Newport.
3. Firing pin had to travel 90 deg from torpedo motion, and mass/ inertia with deformation prevented the pin's travel unless an oblique impact was made.

And BuOrd acted like the F35 shillposters when the problems were related to them.

>>32914724
Any ship can dive underwater.
Submarines are able to come back to the surface.

>>32915109
>The answer is about 1,5
Not for the USN. The liquid metal (Sodium in this case) cooled S2G was removed and replaced with a pressurized water S2Wa in 1960. That's the last LMC reactor deployed by the USN, even though they've built several land-based prototypes for testing. Since then, 16 total nuclear sub classes or unique boats have been commissioned. That's a fuckton of different designs to try out the next liquid metal cooled reactor in. BUT THEY DIDN'T. WHY? Answer the fucking question, Claire.

Even for the USSR, the final boat of the Alfa class was commissioned Dec. 1981. Since then, 11 different classes were commissioned, and again, not a single LMC reactor. Not even the Mike boat, the K-278, which was a prototype for the direct Alfa successor, had a LMC reactor - pressurized water OK-650 b-3 in that one. WHY?

Your argument that no LMC reactors are currently being used because there was no opportunity to use them is utterly and completely ridiculous. There was more than enough opportunity to keep deploying and developing them. But not a single one more was deployed.

>You already have a class of borderline experimental extremely expensive and complicated fast hunter/killers. Not even a superpower can afford two.
Both the USN and USSR built and deployed multiple one-off and short-class boats in the time since to test radical technologies (Triton, Halibut, Tullibee, Dolphin, Narwhal, Lipscomb, Puffer, Batfish, Seawolf class all being examples here). This is also a stupid argument. Stop saying stupid shit easily controverted by 60 seconds on google, much less actual knowledge.

>>32915202
>And liquid metal reactors are far safer.
Once more for the retard:
>no SCRAM without permanent, catastrophic damage and even then it's almost impossible to avoid coolant system breach and leak - see K-64
>no direct seawater injection in case of emergency
>no natural circulation in emergency power loss situation
etc.

>>32914536

Can someone explain this. I thought subs spent most of their time underwater. Only surfacing occasionally. So why is it at the water line that the hull is fouled and not the entire sub?

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>>32915109
>We'll see if this new Russian sub will have one

I'll spoil things for you: they won't

the russian armed forces have a tiny budget similar to Britain and the russian navy has better things to spend their meager budget on

much like that nuclear aircraft carrier they will make a small scale mock-up then never develop the idea further

>>32915333
>Can someone explain this. I thought subs spent most of their time underwater. Only surfacing occasionally. So why is it at the water line that the hull is fouled and not the entire sub?
Because it spent more than a decade rusting apart at pierside and not being maintained before finally getting scrapped.

No operational sub looks like that, at least not in the USN

>>32915352

Oh that's a mothball boat? Then that makes sense.

>>32915109
>Someone served at Alfa or Schuka-B? Sorry, what? No? Okay then, next time bring something but half a century old damage control about Echo II class harassing USS Enterprise or Victor class stealing all the way up to the Sargasso Sea unseen.
I see you completely ignored the sources here >>32914985. God forbid actual sources and data disturb your deeply held feels.

>>32915202
LMR safer? How?
And the USA and Russia alike know the "revolutionary design" problems make the LMR impractical for naval reactors. Why are you mad about this?

>>32915333
Drydock is the only time the rest is exposed, which is rare. Subs spend more than half their time surfaced pierside.

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>>32915364
>Oh that's a mothball boat? Then that makes sense.
Erm... in a sense. Basically after the USSR collapsed, 60+ nuclear submarines were left to basically rust at pierside while their reactors quietly fell apart and some leaked. Some of these nuke boats actually sank at pier. Some were towed out to bays like pic related, beached and abandoned. Some WITH NUCLEAR REACTORS INSIDE.

They literally had no money to maintain or decommission them. Eventually, the US, Norway, Sweden and others got together, cut them a check and they started decommissioning these boats semi-properly. Even then, a ton of that money disappeared into graft and corruption. 1991-about 2005 was a complete shitshow in the Russian armed forces.

>>32915309
we can float bismarck, just need a few billion ping pong balls

>>32915364
>>32915421
To learn more, here's a brief overview of major incidents and accidents involving Russian nuclear power, many involving a major radiological contamination event:
http://spb.org.ru/bellona/ehome/russia/nfl/nfl8.htm

Here's a pretty comprehensive top-down look at the decommissioning problem for post-Soviet Russia from back in 1999:
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1999_06/subjun99
>The result today is both a proliferation and environmental nightmare. Over 110 of Russia's decommissioned nuclear submarines still have operating nuclear reactors, which, according to Russian designs, means two reactors per vessel or more than 220 individual reactors. There is nowhere to put the liquid waste or to store the spent fuel, so the reactors have to keep operating with only skeleton crews.

And here's a comprehensive breakdown of decommissioning status from the 2003 Bellona Foundation report:
http://spb.org.ru/bellona/ehome/russia/nfl/nfl6.htm
>The only submarines that were taken out of service were those whose fuel assemblies had been so badly damaged that refuelling was impossible.[465] These vessels were either laid up or dumped in the Kara sea.
>Until 1986, there were no formal plans for the decommissioning of obsolete nuclear submarines.
>So far, no submarine has been decommissioned in a responsible manner in compliance with the regulations. Some submarines have been completely dismantled, but their reactor compartments have either been dumped in the Kara Sea or are still stored floating on the sea. According to naval yard authorities, safe decommissioning of nuclear submarines will not be possible for another five to seven years.[472] The Russian Ministry of Defence claims that the present economic situation rules out a sustainable rate of decommissioning before 2005-2010.
It contains a pretty decent hull-by-hull breakdown of where each nuke boat was and in what state in 2003. Scary as all hell.

>>32915364
>>32915647
http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2012-08-russia-announces-enormous-finds-of-radioactive-waste-and-nuclear-reactors-in-arctic-seas
And here's a final article from Bellona in 2012 outlining admissions the Russian government had finally made about nuclear material dumping grounds in the Kara Sea, including an entire boat, the K-27, which still contains two fully fueled reactors, deliberately scuttled in only 33m (108ft) of water - practically periscope depth. From wiki:
>It was necessary for a naval salvage tug to ram the stern of K-27 to pierce its aft ballast tanks and sink it, because K-27's bow had impacted the seafloor while its stern was still afloat. This scuttling was performed contrary[6] to the International Atomic Energy Agency's requirement that nuclear-powered submarines and surface ships must be scuttled at depths not less than 3,000 meters.

The very last thing any sane person on earth should want to see is Russia building more nuclear reactors, given their incredibly bad safety record across the board. Thank god the USN had Rickover and then SUBSAFE to help prevent most of this complete bullshit.

>>32912721
>Monsun Gruppe

>>32915324
Because the US ditched the idea around 60s, Eugene the hysteric.
>Even for the USSR, the final boat of the Alfa class was commissioned Dec. 1981
I repeat, the question is not when the class was commissioned, but when it was decommissioned.
>Your argument that no LMC reactors are currently being used because there was no opportunity to use them is utterly and completely ridiculous.
Your denial of this simple fact is.
>There was more than enough opportunity to keep deploying and developing them
They kept developing them, dummy. They still do.
>Both the USN and USSR built and deployed multiple one-off and short-class boats in the time since to test radical technologies
I'm talking about operational service, dummy. Borei is a Soviet project, and so is Yasen. Neither of these were designed for such a reactor and neither could Russia afford maintaining it or developing a submarine for it anew.
>This is also a stupid argument
Your post lacks any arguments.
>no SCRAM without permanent, catastrophic damage
Due to imperfect design lacking backup heating system.
>and even then it's almost impossible to avoid coolant system breach and leak
And immediate solidification, which is safer.
>no direct seawater injection in case of emergency
>no natural circulation in emergency power loss situation
And zero chance of overheating.
>>32915349
>I'll spoil things for you: they won't
Your opinion is extremely valuable for us, please don't hang the phone.
>>32915366
>blogspot.com
>source
I told you to bring something but half a century old damage control next time. But all you did was just repeating it.
>>32915384
>LMR safer? How?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-cooled_fast_reactor#Advantages
>Why are you mad about this?
There's a literal assburger screeching all over the thread about how this design can never ever ever become valid just because the US dropped the idea in 60s and Russia didn't have money to maintain Alfa, and I am mad? Lol, right.

>>32914658
Alabamafag here, been to see the Drum several times. The outside is pretty rusty but it looks like the inside is fairly well maintained.

I wish they would put her back in the water though

>>32915886
also bamafag here, her interior is pretty good, but her hull needed some work when i went about a year ago

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>>32906225
Balao class master race reporting in

>TFW as a Kid I would play with the 4 inch deck gun

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Something about a post war era Guppy modded Balao / tench that turns my dick to diamonds

>Electric boat pattern Guppy Ia

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>>32915982
Portsmouth pattern Guppy
>Dat shark fin sail HHNNNGGGG

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>>32915982
>>32915999
Atlantic High sail, stretched out hull, Puff sonar, Guppy III reporting in

>>32915834
>Because the US ditched the idea around 60s
Wrong.
>Fermi 1 operated from 1963 to 1972 - liquid sodium cooled fast breeder
>EBR II operated from 1965 to 1994 - liquid sodium breeder
>IFR was built and tested from 1986 to project cancellation in 1994, including full up safety tests - sodium cooled fast neutron reactor
>a number of other prototyping/testing projects used liquid metal cooling in the US and Europe
>Many, many modern proposed civilian designs like Gen IV LS designs (PRISM) and Gen IV LL designs (SSTAR)
Jesus Christ, anon. This is literally 60 seconds on google tier shit. It's time to stop posting.

>but when it was decommissioned.
Then you're a moron. The USN didn't wait for the Narwhal and S5G to decommission before building the S8G into the Ohio class (only a seven year gap between Narwhal commissioning and Ohio keel laying), just for one of the many, many instances where your thinking is absolutely retarded here.

>They kept developing them, dummy. They still do.
You missed the key part of that phrase, the one which underlines which technologies the USN and Russians think are serious future naval technologies: DEPLOYING

>I'm talking about operational service, dummy.
Again, how many operational designs did the Soviets put in commission after the last Alfa was finished? Weren't they the ones to build the Alfa? Right.

>Due to imperfect design lacking backup heating system.
What kind of fucking dumbass are you? None of the fucking Alfas had a "backup heating system". The only backup systems were pierside, and they were prone to failure. Subsequent Alfas were modified so that in SCRAM conditions the reactor was still at 10% output power.

CONT

>>32915834
>>32916094
>And zero chance of overheating.
See: K-64. Also, K-123, also an Alfa, suffered an extremely similar accident to the K-64 in 1981:
>On August 8, 1982, while on duty in the Barents Sea, there was a release of liquid metal coolant from the reactor of the Project 705 - Alfa class submarine K-123. The accident was caused by a leak in the steam generator. Approximately two tons of metal alloy leaked into the reactor compartment, irreparably damaging the reactor such that it had to be replaced.[590] It took nine years to repair the submarine.[591]
K-316, yet another Alfa also had a steam generator leak and metal coolant loss in 1987.
K-377:
>(K-47), factory no. 900. (Commanding Officer: A.S. Pushkin) This submarine suffered a reactor accident in 1972 during sea trials. The metal coolant "froze" and it was therefore impossible to remove the reactor fuel. After this trial period, the submarine was dismantled. The reactor compartment (no. 140) was filled with furfurol and bitumen and placed on a barge for transport to the Kara Sea where it would be dumped. However, just as the barge holding the reactor was being towed out of Severodvinsk, word came from the Soviet Department of the Environment that the London Convention had just been signed and the reactor was not to be dumped at sea. Subsequently, the barge was instead towed to the island Yagry outside Zvezdochka Shipyard where it remains today. On December 21. 1994 it was decided to move the reactor-section to Gremikha, where it will be stored on shore.
FOUR OF THE SEVEN ALFAS SUFFERED MAJOR REACTOR INCIDENTS. Tell me again about how safe LMC is for naval vessels, you fucking moron.

CONT

>>32915834
>>32916105
>I told you to bring something but half a century old damage control next time. But all you did was just repeating it.
You didn't even look at the source, you utter fucking retard. I told you all the sources were within. Fine. Since you're too fucking lazy to wipe your own ass:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA519221
https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/Research---Gaming/China-Maritime-Studies-Institute/Published-Articles/Erickson-Goldstein_China-s-Future-Nuclear-Submarine-Force_NWCR_2007-01.pdf
And finally, this:
https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/sea-denial-analysis-of-csbas-proposal.html
with the following sources:
http://csbaonline.org/publications/2014/12/hard-roc-2-0-taiwan-and-deterrence-through-protraction/
http://www.ibtimes.com/taiwan-announces-plans-new-submarines-week-after-ship-launch-1770072
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/29/inside-the-ring-taiwan-submarine-plan-sinks-as-pen/?page=all
http://news.usni.org/2014/04/15/spain-asks-u-s-help-fix-s-80-sub-program
http://news.usni.org/2013/06/03/electric-boat-called-in-to-fix-flawed-spanish-sub
http://archive.defensenews.com/article/20140106/DEFREG03/301060013/Taiwan-s-Sub-launched-Harpoons-Pose-New-Challenge-China-s-Invasion-Plans
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/type-209-specs.htm

CONT

>>32916112

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/asia-pacific/2015/01/05/report-japan-proposes-joint-work-australia-sub-fleet/21296219/
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0102/02RP03#impressing
http://news.usni.org/2014/10/28/u-s-navy-impressed-new-russian-attack-boat
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2012/03/lockheed-martin-to-provide-navy-submarines-with-360-degree-situational-awareness-sail-mounted-sonar.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nssn/ \
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2014-06/hunt-full-spectrum-asw
http://csbaonline.org/publications/2015/01/undersea-warfare/
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/naval/submarines/2015/01/23/submarines-warfare-undersea-technology-navy-csba/22221565/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/tyler.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=zUu4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=radar+type+1001&source=bl&ots=vDNTu9f_ue&sig=aEQfP6r-LOF0Fq_lLYHdNm9OJYc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3AbRVJOFNcLqoAS99oLYBg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=radar%20type%201001&f=false
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/deep.htm
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/classes/class_zwaardvis2.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-TAS-Dec-2009.pdf
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/usa-upgrades-submarine-fleet-acoustics-under-arci-program-updated-01952/
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/12/19/breakout-submarines-special-report-pix-g-idINL4N0JJ0FM20131219
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/team-torpedo-raytheon-partners-to-support-mk48-and-mk54-requirements-02533/

CONT

>>32916121
And this:
https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2013/12/chinas-anti-access-strategy-submarine.html
with the following sources:
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/today/ssn.html
Run Silent, Run Deep, Federation of American Scientists, 1998.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/deep.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/asw3.htm
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_25/sosus.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03221.htm
http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurebattle-of-the-submarines-akula-versus-virginia/
http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03222.htm
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1579/how-capable-is-the-094-23
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130410/NEWS/304100029/
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/china-military/#article/part5
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/yuan.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/877.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/kilo.htm
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20130408.aspx
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/songclassubmarine/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/
Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force, Gabriel Collins, Andrew Erickson, Lyle Goldstein, & William Murray, 2008.
CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE - Insights from Chinese Writings, Andrew S. Erickson & Lyle J. Goldstein, 2006.
ANNUAL REPORT TO CONGRESS Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China , Department of Defense, 2011.
AIR-INDEPENDENT PROPULSION, Edward C. Whitman, 2001. http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_13/propulsion.htm
http://breakingdefense.com/2013/04/save-our-subs-prioritizing-the-attack-submarine/

NOW WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOUR SUPPOSED SOURCES?


CONT

>>32916128
>>32915834

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-cooled_fast_reactor#Advantages
Did you seriously just quote me a fucking wiki page which says EXACTLY JACK SHIT about liquid metal reactors in a naval application? You complete and utter fucking asshole. Go fuck yourself with a cactus.

>There's a literal assburger screeching all over the thread about how this design can never ever ever become valid just because the US dropped the idea in 60s and Russia didn't have money to maintain Alfa, and I am mad? Lol, right.
I literally said none of these things. Nice try at a strawman, go fuck yourself.

>>32916094
>>32916105
>>32916112
>>32916121
>>32916128
>>32916134
Holy shit
LMRs BTFO
Good job anon, nice to see idiots dismantled live.

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>>32914904
>>32914985
>>32915054
>>32915324
>>32916094
>>32916105
>>32916112
>>32916121
>>32916128
>>32916134
Fucking kek. I love it when you finally get pissed off enough to completely skullfuck a retard. Cheers m8.

>>32916158
>>32916161
Honestly, I just don't understand why he's so insistent on this point. I said way up here >>32913083
>They were in many ways beautiful boats and technical marvels, but as operational SSNs they were mostly failures.
and it is by no means an inaccurate or unfair statement. He's just lost his shit over a non-issue. It's almost like those kids that argue modern gun battleships should be built or something.

>>32916222
He's either a Slavaboo that takes any criticism as a deep personal insult or just trolling you.

Or he's a shitty Intel agent trying to bait you into leaking info, but everything here is public knowledge.

>>32916286
>Or he's a shitty Intel agent trying to bait you into leaking info, but everything here is public knowledge.
Hilarious. After Walker, and the fear of god they put into us on information control, who the fuck would fall for that?

>>32916286
>>32916308
The funniest thing about it is just how much info on Russian/Soviet subs the Chinese have made publicly available over the last decade in their own naval journals.

>>32916308
>who the fuck would fall for that?
Boy I could eat an entire SIDE OF BEEF right now...

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>>32913253
>all that unnecessary, faggoty lingo

>>32916094
>>32916105
>>32916134
>Wrong.
Right, dummy. Built two working reactors in the 60s. Only returned to the idea in the 80s with a single prototype that
>demonstrated the inherent safety of the IFR concept
How did you even manage to get so self-owned, dummy?
>Then you're a moron
You are, dummy, since now you are bringing up pressurized water reactors that are nowhere near as hard and expensive to maintain.
>You missed the key part of that phrase
You did, dummy, since the key part here is that Russia lacked ability to build or maintain a fleet of such submarines, but didn't lack the ability to keep developing technology.
>Again, how many operational designs did the Soviets put in commission after the last Alfa was finished?
I repeat, dummy, the real question is how many operational designs did Russians put into serial production after the last Alfa was decommissioned?
>None of the fucking Alfas had a "backup heating system".
That's why I said "due to imperfect design", dummy.
>FOUR OF THE SEVEN ALFAS SUFFERED MAJOR REACTOR INCIDENTS
Due to imperfect design, dummy, not due to overheating. Because it can not overheat.
>You complete and utter fucking asshole. Go fuck yourself with a cactus.
Now now, Eugene the hysteric. Quit squealing like a castrate and deal with it.
>I literally said none of these things
You are doing this for hours by now.
>>32916112
>>32916121
>>32916128
>A bunch of dead or irrelevant links
I told you to quit parroting bullshit. But you just keep bringing up half a century old damage control.
>>32916158
>>32916161
Unwashed luddites can't handle the superiority of LMFR design.

>>32912623
my man

>>32916222
It is not about the boats, assburger dummy, it is about you discarding the very concept of naval LMFR based solely on the fact that the only serial implementation of the concept so far was flawed.

>>32916471
>Unwashed luddites
Hey! I had a shower 2 hours ago!
Other than that, 10/10 troll.

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>manlet goes full autist designing subs

really makes me think

>>32916471
>Eugene the hysteric
wat

>>32916471
>types a bunch more shit with zero sources, zero actual argument and zero new information
Yeah, I think I'm done here. Fuck this autism.

>>32916520
>It is not about the boats, assburger dummy, it is about you discarding the very concept of naval LMFR based solely on the fact that the only serial implementation of the concept so far was flawed.
Really? That's hilarious. Because, just in case you're so retarded that you missed it, it's actually about EVERY SINGLE LMC REACTOR which was actually deployed in a boat being a fucking deathtrap which was also, just by the by, louder than a freight train trying to assfuck a 747. On a goddamn submarine. And about the fact that the people who actually have all the data on naval application of liquid metal cooled reactors declined to build any more of the fucking things.

If you're too shit stupid to follow this basic logic, then may god have mercy on your soul.

>>32914904
good job anon

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The British WW1 R-class anti-sub sub was designed for high underwater speed due to its streamlined hull and large battery capacity. It could hit 14 knots underwater.

We can be thankful that the Germans did not come up with the idea of subs with high underwater speed till too late in WW2 or they would have won the war.

>>32907192
>Surcouf
>good

Three minutes after surfacing before the guns can be readied to fire? Two minutes to get submerge to a depth of 12m? Fuck that.

I can never understand why the russians keep making oversized sails on their subs. Even on the German XXI the sail was 1/3 of the overall drag

>>32915982
Live right down street from that.
>mfw done tours so many time they know me by name

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>tfw nobody I know in real life appreciates or likes subs so I have to come to /k/ to get a good discussion about them

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>>32916723

Absolutely fucking wonderful read. Well done anon. I want to buy you a beer and learn about boomers.

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>>32916723
>Types a bunch more shit with zero sources, zero actual argument and zero new information
Nice projections. Your fecal matter was done the moment you began to argue your retarded point.
>EVERY SINGLE LMC REACTOR which was actually deployed in a boat being a fucking deathtrap
Only that not a single person died to an accident on Alfa. Not a fucking single one. Squeal more about how LMFR is not safe, Eugene the hysteric castrate.
>louder than a freight train trying to assfuck a 747
Delicious half a century old damage control.
>people who actually have all the data on naval application of liquid metal cooled reactors declined to build any more
More like didn't have any money to build more. We'll see if this new Russian sub will have it.
>>32918948
Why are you so mad, unwashed luddite?

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>>32920656
Holy fucking kek, kids. He's still going. What a tool.

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>>32912437
What's the little thing poking up in the middle?

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>>32921063
>Eternal frustration of the unwashed luddite mind

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>>32914868
Is that the one that rammed the back of a ship recently?

>>32921169
It means it's a male submarine.

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>>32921169
Intercept array

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>>32921183
The whole "unwashed luddite" thing was funny the first time, but please expand your vocabulary for future posts.

>>32912465
Loose lips sink ships

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>>32916094
>>32916105
>>32916112
>>32916121
>>32916128
Please stop. I know you ment well when you started debating him, but pic related is what happens when you engage with these people

>>32921765
The whole unwashed luddite thing was funny in the 19th century, but please cease this behaviour in the 21st one.

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Now if only we could get better missiles. I'm looking forward to the Dreadnought class, though, ought to be fun seeing the largest subs ever build in these isles come together

>>32922321
There is something about the front half of Bong subs that just pleases the eye. Dont really know why, but i think its the way they break from the "long smooth dildo"-design school. Same with some of the high-speed soviet subs

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>>32922602
We have a phobia of making things the same shape as everyone else. Our helicopters are all bulbous in odd places, our boats have big fuckoff flat walls everywhere, and our subs have canards all over the place. I do worry about dreadnought, the only mockup we have of it is lacking any sort of protrusions aside from the tower. Most worrying, really.

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>>32922655
British submarines have always been a e s t h e t i c AF desu phampai.

>YO GATO, I'm really happy for you, Imma let you finish, but the T-class was one of the best lookin subs OF ALL TIME

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>>32906225

Why was the American Gato campaign in the Pacific so devastating whereas Germany's U-Boat campaign in the Atlantic didn't do shit?

>>32923185
Jap ASW a shit.

>>32923185
Because the japanese REALLY sucked hard at ASW and general convoy stuff.

>>32923163
>DEM CURVES

Like a fucking Ferrari Testarossa, my dick is diamonds right now.

>>32921236
f-fake news

>>32921713
And that does what?
>inb4 Intercepts

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>>32923163

That looks nice.

>>32923185
Japs never took submarines as a serious threat and thus didn't invest much into ASW. They also did not rebuild merchant ships that were lost to US subs, so eventually their capacity to import goods dwindled. Britain and the US, on the other hand, pumped out merchants at lightning speed, some ships taking as little as two weeks to build.

This next point is debatable, but I would say that US fleet boats were better for their job than the U-boats were for theirs. US subs had longer range, better speed, more torpedoes, and a few luxuries that allowed the crews to better deal with the harsh Pacific climate. Once the torpedo problems were resolved a Gato could do more damage to a convoy than a Type VII, and it could generally outmaneuver one more easily.

>>32924830
>Once the torpedo problems were resolved
Having read a few books about US submarine action during the war, it becomes somewhat entertaining to read about the frustration felt from sub skippers over the torps failing, and the complete clusterfuck that was the torpedo manufacturing and testing.

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>>32915647
>>32915718
I just blew my entire lunch looking at those sources, especially that Bellona report. Jesus Christ, that's some horrifying shit. I'm no commie treehugger but it really does make a strong argument for at least minimal EPA/AEC regulation in some industries and regarding some materials. Bookmarked for the next one of my friends who makes a "dismantle the EPA or AEC completely" argument.

I mean, it's not like that constant NIMBY assholes challenging them in court. They could have put a waste storage facility anywhere in Siberia and no one would have given two fucks. Lazy assholes.

>>32913675
>>32913686
>>32914211
>>32914545
>>32914904
>>32914985
>>32915054
>>32915324
>>32916094
>>32916105
>>32916112
>>32916121
>>32916128
>>32916134
>>32916723
This shit gave me a boner. Who knew /k/ had people who actually knew what the fuck they were talking about and contributed to the discussion with actual sourced information on shit I never could have found? If we had just one of these fuckers for every 30 shitposters around here, things might actually get better again, back to pre-2009 /k/.

You win the interwebs today, anon/anons. Usually I end up disappointed blowing my lunch hour on /k/. Today was the glorious exception.

>>32924916
You should try living next to Murmansk then. Its all good and jolly until the Russians decide to "loose" a sub or something that then drifts down your coast.
I consider myself pro-nuclear and generally regard Bellona and their followers as out-of-touch hippies, but then you remember that the russian subs just rust at the piers until they sink.

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>>32924988
>I consider myself pro-nuclear and generally regard Bellona and their followers as out-of-touch hippies, but then you remember that the russian subs just rust at the piers until they sink.
Oh, I'm pro nuclear all the way, and certainly do not buy the entire Bellona platform. But, shit, if they're doing good research and making public the results, I'll look at the data and make my own mind up.

I don't think anyone can argue how shitty the Russian record with nuclear reactor safety is, in the navy or civilian facilities. Nuclear only really works if people give a shit about safety, redundancy and extensive contingency planning. I cannot understand the Russian mindset in this area, it just makes no fucking sense.

>hey, Yuri, let's power our shit with this technology
is very dangerous if mishandled, Ivan
>but capitalist pigs have it and we can't be behind
fine, but we must be safe or we will salt our own land for thousands of years
>fuck safety, we must prove we are best!

>>32906446
Made with pride in America, boys!

>>32912465
Are you going to be having sex with lots of /cuteboys/ while you're stuck on that sub with them?

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>>32912465
>mfw you might be near me if you're in the Pacific Fleet
Greetings from the Kitsap Peninsula.

>>32906748
The Nautilus or something like it is basically my dream yacht. I really don't give a fuck about torpedoes or running silent or even the bow screw, I just want to have a big pimp submarine to tour the world's pelagic zones and seaside vacation spots. Imagine the views you'd get at midday near a major reef.

>>32920656
You need to tap out, princess. Right now you're only value is providing online entertainment.

Unless you want to troll about sub communications systems next. I'd love to see the wealth of detail unearthed as they bury your arguments about that.

>>32924916
>Implies LFMR is not safe
>Posts a wall of irrelevan links about gook subs
>knew what the fuck they were talking about
Bitch, please.

>>32925499
>Eugene the hysteric castrate tries to snarl
>He's out of arguments against LFMR safety, keeps squealing anyway
Bitch, please. Squeal, piggy, squeal.

>>32925526
>>32925564
Yey, he's baaaaack :p Did your mum allow you more pc-time, or did you find one at your highschools library?

>>32925583
His commissar promised a bonus potato for his vatnik bucket.

>>32925583
Sorry, I don't speak unwashed luddite squeals, next time try human language.

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>>32923286
Part of the passive sonar apparatus.

>>32921236
It's how they show dominance.

>>32925631
>I loved LMR so much, I had all the propaganda and pictures
>I pray to LMR every night before bed, thanking it for the life I’ve been given
>"LMR is love" I say; “LMR is life”
>My commissar hears me and calls me a faggot
>I know he was just jealous of my devotion for LMR
>I called him a luddite
>He slaps me and sends me to go to sleep
>I’m crying now, and my face hurts
>I lay in bed and it’s really cold
>Suddenly, a warmth is moving towards me
>I am so happy
>He whispers into my ear “My circulation is perfectly safe.”
>He grabs me with his powerful lead filled valves and puts me down onto my hands and knees
>I’m ready
>I spread my ass-cheeks for LMR
>He penetrates my butt-hole
>It hurts so much but I do it for LMR
>I can feel my butt tearing as my eyes start to water
>I push against his force
>I want to please LMR
>He roars in a mighty roar as he fills my butt with his liquid metal coolant
>My commissar walks in
>LMR looks him straight in the eyes and says “It’s the future now.”
>LMR leaves through my window
>LMR is love. LMR is life.

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Is sonar like the Type 23's 2087 actually a threat to quiet subs, or is it just a meme? Total faggot here.

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>>32906225
Why dont we militarize smaller submarines for stealth purposes?

>>32927426
The Astute's complete sonar package and processing is, depending on reports, equal to, a little less efficient or a little more efficient than a Block I or II Virginia. You can figure it's pretty damn good, and certainly better than anything on any boat which isn't SSN 21-23 or SSN 774+.

Remember that of all the services and allies, the RN and USN bubblehead communities are probably the closest and communicate most in training, procurement and development. In many areas, they take chances in one direction and we take chances in the other direction. Whichever one works out best gets worked into the next generation of boats on both sides of the pond.

>>32927426
>>32927640
Shit, sorry, I read your post as if you were responding to >>32921713 and >>32926074.

As for SUW based ASW and sensor packages, the 2087 is by all accounts excellent. While situational in use, a towed array is just about the only way a surface ASW asset is going to sniff a quiet boat travelling at less than 10 knots on passive, or a quiet boat travelling faster at long range or under the thermocline.

Outside of rotary wing dipping sonar and sonobuoys, towed arrays are by far the most useful tool in the box for an ASW frigate/destroyer.

>>32927640
>>32927750
Thanks, both posts were semi-related nonetheless. I don't think I'll ever get a good grasp of underwater warfare, there just seems to be so much to it, at least to me.

>>32927877
Brother, just think of it like this:
flashlight tag in the woods at night
>the ground is covered with semi-dry leaves and twigs, making movement noisy, especially when moving fast
>the trees are close-packed and you can travel through the canopy, but they also make noise and rattle as you move
>it's hard to hear from ground to canopy or visa versa, but sound travels a long, long way along the ground or in the canopy - but it's quiet so you have to be moving slowly with your ears pricked to hear it.
>you have a flashlight, but if you turn it on EVERYONE in the game will instantly see you and know where you are
>to tag the enemy out you have to either lasso them with a rope or you can set a rope trap, but team kills are possible so you better be sure before you lasso (simulating torpedoes and captor mines - this part of the analogy is a little weak)

Now, that's basic ASW operations between SSNs or with SSN vs SSBN/SSGN hunting. A whole lot of listening, moving slowly, occasional sprints to a new spot to slow down and listen and uncertainty about who is where and who is who. It takes time and patience, good stalking tactics, and good ears, to figure out the whole picture before you act.

Now, when we add in surface ASW assets, it's like each side has several cranes that can drop off microphones along the forest floor and canopy to listen for people passing by, then tell their team who's doing what where. Then can also drop rope nets on them.

It's kind of a weak analogy, but it's the best I got.