Why aren't APS' used more?

>>32894770
How does the APS detect something like the RPG-29's rocket when it's unguided? Does it have a radar system?

>>32894784
yeah

>>32894784
>How does the APS detect something like the RPG-29's rocket when it's unguided? Does it have a radar system?

Probably by using an active system instead of a passive one.

>>32894784
Not OP, but Trophy (the APS in OP's pic) doesn't detect things based on guidance or or not. It simply detects large projectiles approaching at certain speeds within a minimal distance and activates.

So it can work even against basic RPG's.

The reliance on active radar to detect incoming projectiles is probably the reason it's not used. Scanning for incoming projectiles lights you up with a big "here I am" to anyone watching for RF emissions.

>>32894804
Cool.
>>32894806
>It simply detects large projectiles approaching at certain speeds within a minimal distance and activates.
Right, as you can see my question was how it did this.

because its new concept, and the US hasn't really used their tanks since the gulf war

>>32894770
They're more for counter insurgency purposes senpai

Oohga Boogas rely on RPG and shitty AT weapons, whereas a convential force will have vehicles for that purpose, in addition to recoiless rifles and the sort.

Israel only fights their neighbors, which is why they're able to rely on, and effectively use APS

>>32894868
The fuck are you talking about?

We haven't had Tank warfare since then, and that was shitty soviet steel clinking off of Abrams.

We don't use it for the simple reason of haj not being our only problem

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With the end of the Cold War, defense budgets were slashed. Active protection systems, though in development or deployed in limited numbers (Drozd), were never given the funding they needed to come around in appreciable time or have the maturity to be worth deploying. It was the end of history, the wall fell, and everyone sang kumbaya.

The Israelis were one of the few countries with both a sizeable military and R&D budget that continued extensive military operations. Hence, the need for something like Trophy.
Other countries developed other APS systems, which may have been better or worse, but their own militaries were sitting in parade grounds, and defense procurement worldwide was down.

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>>32894842
>as you can see my question was how it did this.

>>32894901
>whereas a convential force will have vehicles for that purpose
Yeah, vehicles, like AH-64 with Hellfires and A-10 with Mavericks.

>>32894770
>Why aren't APS' used more?
Because FCS boondoggle and Iraq war buried US chances to modernize land forces. Europoors are poor.

>>32894770
Has there ever been any information about the minimum velocity that APSes like Trophy can stop? I remember reading about the Russian Drozd and Arena and the minimum velocity threshold is 70 M/s, right above the velocity of some WWII era shaped charge based anti tank weapons like some versions of the Panzerfaust.

Dutch Army is getting the Iron Fist APS on its CV90 IFVs. I think the US Army is also looking into procuring an APS for their Bradleys and Strykers

>>32895412
Israeli's keep trophy heavily under wrapped and aren't letting it be exported, but they do export a lesser version called Iron Fist. Apparently the minimum velocity for it is 215 feet per second

>>32895512
>and aren't letting it be exported
Trophy is undergoing trials in the US now, along with several other APS as part of MAPS. It's absolutely being sold.
>they do export a lesser version called Iron Fist
Iron Fist isn't a "lesser" version of Trophy. it's an entirely different APS from IMI.

>>32894770
Because it's a meme that seldom works.

>>32894770
>what gives?
It's positively lethal to dismounts.

It can cause extensive collateral damage in urban areas.

It's generally not effective enough against modern, first/second-world AT weapons to be worth the risks of the above. It does fucking wonderfully in a COIN setting where the tanks are operating without an infantry screen, which is why the Israeli's use it so heavily (it's literally all they do), but would be extremely situational for the rest of the first world.

>>32894806
>throw rocks at tank
>shoot rpg afterward

>>32896024
>goatfuckers throwing rocks at 70m/s
hey we should really be recruiting MLB pitchers from Syria, apparently they can throw >156mph fastballs with regularity

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>>32896024
A thrown Rock doesn't move at the velocity to set it off.

Shoot the rock out of a cannon, and maybe you're onto something.

Pic related is a Russian countermeasure to APS', it shoots the bottom decoy munition first to set it off before the main warhead impacts. However the newer version of Trophy (windbreaker-2, hat's the actual name lol) is also taking more size and speed into account as a countermeasure to this countermeasure.

>>32894770

Simple. Israeli APS is unreliable. In 2015. Israeli army engineer killed when accompanying Merkava which automatically fired its hard-kill APS system.

>>32896100
The incident was during combat, and it was because the tank intercepted an incoming RPG.

>>32894770
They require an active radar output, if the enemy have any form of radar guided atgm you have just lit yourself up with a big sign screaming shoot me and made any decoy useless.

If accompanied by dismounted infantry you may have caused friendly fire large than the missile blast

If in COIN against low end RPGS you changed a harmless detonation on the hull flexing your power as you continue nonchalantly into oh shithe your tank just randomly murders people in the street and blows up shopfronts.

The only situation I see a use is to confuse SEAD with low value targets or as a last second response if you know you are positively IDed by strike aircraft

>>32895648
>>32896100
>>32896229
Do you know what else is lethal to dismounts? A fucking Rocket hitting the tank that they're standing beside. The friendly fie argument against APSes is a non issue.

>>32896292
APS is lethal to everything unarmored within its line of fire out to nearly 50m as it's actively projecting high velocity shrapnel AWAY from the tank.

The side and rear blast radius of even a very large AT missile is like 3.5-5m, and kinetic penetrators have basically no spall/blast projecting out from the tank.
>b-but what if they're literally standing within touching distance of the tank?!?!
Don't be a slavic conscript dumb enough to stand that fucking close to a tank maybe?

>>32896906
>APS is lethal to everything unarmored within its line of fire out to nearly 50m
Uh, no. There are a variety of methods used and at least one APS a projectile above the incoming rocket that then directs its shrapnel downward at the incoming rocket.

>>32896959
The only 2 that are operational atm both fire fragmenting munitions straight out from the tank, with the goal to intercept the incoming warhead no closer than 15m from the tank.

>>32896100
Source?

>>32894784
Millimetric radar, like those things on your car that warn you when you're too close to a wall when parking

>>32896053
Tbf, no-one trows rocks like arab kids. Each time we left the gate some 12-year old future VBIED-driver would hit one or two of our gunners on the head with a few rocks from 15-20 meters. ROE kept us from throwing flash back at them

>>32894784
The things marked with the red squares in op's pic are the front radars.

>>32894770
>what gives?
the Soviet use APS is the 80s

as for the Trophy, the IDF have to rethink their doctrine because and APS use fragment to intercept HEAT warhead

>>32894838
desu a 60+ ton heavy MBT with large dildo sticking from its turret, heavily smoking and leaving dust trail behind itself while emmiting huge clouds of hot air that shines in IR spectrum is much, much more of a problem than a couple kW micrometer AESA radars... tanks are not really sneaky. Besides how many AT missiles are radar guided anyways?

>>32895476
Us army already has an APS it can put on everything from Humvee up

>>32894838
>Muh M22/M35/Eutotanker/J21 stealth tank maymay

>>32894838
Infrared stealth matters in tank design. Think about target detection method and guidance of most anti tank missile.

>>32899067
Tanks rely heavily on not being seen. Don't be retarded.

>>32896024
APS detects and distinguish target by its speed and trajectory. Counter-battery radar works the same.

So any object with speed and trajectory different from input-data in radar software can't be detected.

>>32896906
>APS IS BAD BECAUSE IT MIGHT KILL A GRUNT

Tank and tankers are worth more. Deal with it.

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Because it is not useful. Pic related is called Arena APS, it did not help the Syrians against Russian Kornet ATGMs. It uses a Doppler radar to find a target and it moves the missile away from the target. it helps if you include smoke grenades so others cannot see the missile hitting the tank.

>>32899227
That's Shtora and it's a soft kill APS.Arena is hardkill.

ATGM are not a serious thread in the kind of operations our ABCT are designed for, and if they ever do become so we can buy APS whenever we want

Interesting read
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2017/01/hardkill-aps-overview.html

If APS is going to degrade KE penetrators by more than 50%
Then the next caliber of gun must be MUCH larger to compensate, or swap over to KE missiles as the primary anti-tank weapon

>>32899408
then aps will just move to a larger effector duuh
what we really need is ECM on tanks to jam APS

Armored missiles when?

Stealth missiles when?

Armored stealth missiles when?

>>32899186
He's simply stating how it can easily injure nearby troops you faggot. He never said it was bad.

Read.

>>32899417
Then isn't much "armor" you can do on a solid chunk of DU or Titanium m8

>>32899429
Hey, lets not let physics, material science and reality get in the way of a good fantasy now...

>>32896292
Friendly fie is argument when you start accounting APS reactions against false threat with APS shooting at friendless mistaking them with rockets..

>>32899892
>mistaking friendlies for rockets

Howabout train you soldiers to not sprint at 150 miles an hour when they're near tanks?

Hey, guys, what if the radars are off and you have an IR/UV DAS similar to the F-35's that detects missile motors igniting and then flicks on the radar facing the threat only. Now you don't have to worry about EMCON in your tank.

>>32899186
You're missing what was actually said.

Collateral damage in COIN is unacceptable to any western government, defending a tank from a projectile that is incredibly unlikely to score more than a mobility kill is not worth the PR cost at home and abroad of spraying a street corner with shrapnel that has every chance of killing or injuring civilians, giving the insurgents a PR win which hold more value than the tank that they shot at.

>>32899990
very directed shrapnel
lets take the deployed israeli system for example
has a calculated very very low chance to hit a soldier even standing adjacent to the vehicle

>>32899929
>Howabout train you soldiers to not sprint at 150 miles an hour when they're near tanks?
We are talking about stupid machine programmed by pajits.
https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/
American Vulcan CIWS is also know for shooting at stuff like other ships, islands, birds etc. Low rate or false alarms is very needed quality for APS.

>>32899227
Kornet is beam-riding and wire guided though, that's not supposed to be "jamable"

>>32894838
Expense and recent development is why its not used. Militaries are often slow to fix problems.

For example the US finally built MRAPs after sending soft skinned junk HMMWVs into Iraq combat despite the lessons of Viet Nam, Chechnya and Somalia. Unarmored vehicles are bad. They were always bad. Some people don't get the message.

>>32895648
>It's positively lethal to dismounts.
No more so than a high caliber ATGM going off. Which it would if it hit the tank.
>It can cause extensive collateral damage in urban areas.
The damage caused by APS is negligible compared to that done by the missile.
>It's generally not effective enough against modern, first/second-world AT weapons to be worth the risks of the above.
I guess Kornets and RPG-29 don't count as modern AT weapons to you.
>It does fucking wonderfully in a COIN setting where the tanks are operating without an infantry screen, which is why the Israeli's use it so heavily (it's literally all they do),
Citation fucking needed. Tanks operating w/o infantry is NOT what Israel, or any half competent military does. They are accompanied by infantry, that doesn't mean the infantry are clustered suicidally close to the vehicle.
>but would be extremely situational for the rest of the first world.
It's more that Israel were the only ones to both have a real need for them and could afford to develop them-no one else with the capability of developing a high end APS was facing missile threats that would justify such an expenditure. When initially offered to the US, NIH syndrome combined with Raytheon promising a better system killed the sale. Increased interest has arisen, so it's possible the Marines will be buying trophy as an interim.

>>32899069
Citation needed. You posted that elsewhere and never named the system. Name the system with citation or shut the fuck up on the subject.

The Army doesn't have the hardware ready to install, though Raytheon has been working on APS for a while and the Army would rather wait on that.

As of August 30, 2016:

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/R44598.pdf
>According to the U.S. Army Tank-Automotive Research, Development, and Engineering Center (TARDEC), “Active Protection Systems have been in the design and development stages since the early 1950s, but none have successfully made the transition from development to integration on a platform.” The Army’s and Marines’ current APS efforts are described as technology demonstrations and have not progressed to formal Programs of Record.

what is the fucking agenda behind these people hand-wringing and crying about how dangerous aps are when they don't even understand simple operating facts about them

its so fucking weird
is it the atgm lobby ?? wtf

Hey /k/, did you ever ask yourself what your WW2-vet relatives would think about all that high-tech tank shit?

My grandpa was a Sherman tanker in WW2 and when I told him about modern armor, sensors and shit, he was fucking blasted

>>32900062
>>My grandpa was a Sherman tanker in WW2 and when I told him about modern armor, sensors and shit, he was fucking blasted

is that true?
what was his actual reaction please tell me more

>>32900015
Wire guided missiles are relatively easily jammed. They are guided by the launcher tracking a flare in the rear of the missile, and directing the missile to move back to LOS. If you have a jammer, you fool the tracking system, so it feeds garbage to the missile which then misses. A beam rider is different, and far more difficult to jam, but suffers from poorer accuracy at range.

>>32900072
wire guided missiles are not easily jammed at all, modern beacon systems use randomized frequencies, and cameras are really really good at filtering out specific frequencies out of noise

so your only option is white noise jamming or frequency ramping and only jamming for split seconds at a time

>>32900082
Sorry I meant *older* wire guided.
The sort you see in Syria.
You are correct about the more modern beacons.

>>32894770
A) Money- this shit ain't cheap at all, and fitting a sufficient amount of vehicles with it is to expensive for most militaries. The fact that it's tailored for the Israeli Merkava will only further raise the price as some redesigning will be needed to fit different tanks.
B) It's a new tech- sure, it proved itself, but it's still new and they busy ironing out stuff based on feedback from the Gaza op. Most militaries like proven and already ironed out stuff. And yes, it's me- unfirlded prototype Russky from the 70's doesn't count.
C) "Ego"- the US, fit an instance, wants to have a go at developing their own version.
D) Competition and testing- the Israelis themselves offer at least 2 competing versions (that also offer slightly different advantages). All needs to be tested+bureaucracy crap, which all can easily take years.

>>32900072
Ah so the Kornet is not beam riding, Wikipedia lied to me

>>32900010
You mean Phalanx, right? It has to engage a much wider variety of threats than an APS does.

>>32899227
>TOW

>>32900071
Well I've been in the USMC and after I got home from tank school grandpa asked me some basic stuff like speed etc - he didn't care about tanks after the war because - I guess - he wanted to forget so he hadn't seen all the TV shows about tanks.


Anywayswe got deeper into the theme. Told him about chobham and dorchester, uranium, ceramics and all that stuff.

Told him the difference between RHA thickness and sandwich thickness, told him that the M1A1s turret front roughly equals a yard of steel armor (against HEAT) - which blasted him away and kept him giggling "that would've been to much for those dang eightyeights son"

Proceeded to tell him the difference about KE-Thickness and HEAT thickness and told him that modern sabots even penetrante most latest types of armor - which again dropped his jaw


So I told him a little about thermal view, laser ranging and stuff.


To be short, he was shaking his head a lot. But I think he also got that a modern atgm to the side of an Abrams does the same damage as a Panzerfaust to his old Sherman.

>>32899227
This is BMP-3M with Shtora demonstration in UAE against Konkurs missile. Arena is other thing.
>>32900015
Kornet is beam-rider only. Probably it can be countered by Shtora's smoke screen if IR detectors will pick up laser emission.

>>32902589
there are specific laser illum sensors I think

I wonder if they have done anything to mitigate the new (uv??) tows