USS Constitution vs HMS Victory

>>32780892
What are you wind and sea conditions? What's the approach from each ship relative to the wind direction? What time of day is it?

>>32780900
We'll say similar conditions as the Guerriere engagement. Cloudy and windy early afternoon at about 600 kilometers southeast of Nova Scotia with the Constitution closing in broadside from the starboard.

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>>32780892
Aren't these two ships still seaworthy?

I mean... There's really only one way to know for sure.

>>32780935

HMS Victory is no way sea worthy, let alone battle worthy. For starts she's got a massive hole in her magazine for people to walk through.

>>32780942
So much for the dream of seeing one last battle of the Age of Sail.

>>32780892
The HMS Victory is a ship of the line, a 1st rate to be precise. The USS Constitution would classify as a heavy 5th rate. Assuming both ships were made sea worthy and appropriately captained/crewed, the USS Constitution would only have a chance if she managed to immobilize the HMS Victory by demasting her before she could get off a broadside.The USS Constitution is more heavily built than a typical 5th rate, but one broadside from the HMS Victory would wreck any frigate. It was actually considered a breach of conduct for a ship of the line to fire upon a frigate unprovoked while there were enemy ships of the line present.

>>32780935
The USS Constitution is fully seaworthy and still on the register.

>>32780892
mount GAU-8´s on it broadside

>we drifting the ship now

>>32780982
Yeah I know but good luck getting the Brits to put money into HMS Victory.

We're lucky they haven't scrapped it for firewood to heat muslim refugee homes.

>>32780985
In fairness, 1st rates are much more expensive to keep up. During their heyday, many were laid-up most of the time and only made ready during a mobilization. They also sail like drunken cattle.

>>32780892
Victory most likely

>>32780975
>one broadside from the HMS Victory would wreck any frigate

The Victory never encountered a three-layer hull frigate that was basically impenetrable in its own time, let alone when the Victory was in its prime.

>>32780935
Lets make this happen
I bet the budget of the next pirates of the carebean would be enough to rebuilt the ships

>>32781004
God I wish, I'd even volunteer to be a crew member, even though that would likely mean horrific death by wood splinters the size of daggers.

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>>32780975
>One broadside from this, and it's all over.

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USS Constitution. We will rekt whoever. It's called the 'American can-do'.

Old Iron sides will persevere. Our unity will persevere.

Can't stop, won't stop.

>>32781003
>impenetrable in its own time
Impenetrable to ships smaller and weaker than itself.
Its just a heavy 5th rate, stop sperging out about it.

Constitution never encountered anything comparable to victory as far as I recall

>>32781057
Not even remotely comparable.

>>32780985
The USA has taken more refugees in the past 20 years than the UK has, by percentage of population and by raw figure.

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America. Fuck yeah.

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I can think of worse ways to make a living.

>>32781035
if they all fired at the same time would the ship tip over?

>>32781082
While I'm sure that's true this isn't the place for that discussion.

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shit. i gotta get to work. later, taters.

>>32781120
In calm waters on a straight course, no.

Rough seas and leaned over in a turn? Possible but unlikely.

>>32781133
Thanks for the image dump anon.

>>32781120
Most of the recoil's energy was dissipated because the canons were on wheels, so no.

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How about USS Constitution vs. HMS Java

She was so devastated by the action she was unworthy of being a prize, was set ablaze and then exploded and sank two days after the action. Constitution lost her helm in the action, and before Java was confined to the briny deep Bainbridge took her helm to replace the one lost on Old Ironsides.

>>32781120

It would be extremely painful

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fuck it. i'll be late for work.

>>32780892
Good question, USS Constitution was largely involved in unbalanced fights against older frigates so it can be hard to judge her true limits but she certainly has the advantage in manoeuvrability. I suspect she could win if she had the wind and kept out of broadside but a straight up fight is harder to predict

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USDA, U.S. Forest Service keeps a forest of white oak just for her.

>>32781181
Also does any anon know if cannon technology differs significantly? Effectiveness at range could change things also.

>>32781164
Youre a big warship

>>32781193
For you

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-3ws7b4sZg

vs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NXFCDgyanA

also, we need a kantai style constitution

>>32781190

Brits had the best cannons in the world. At best the US cannons are comparative and anything else places them lower.

>>32781181

Not a good question. HMS Victory was a 1st class Ship of the Line. USS constitution is a frigate with less than half the guns of Victory. It wasn't winning shit because the scale of firepower and level of crew training on dedicated warships in Britain tends to mean Constitution is getting fucked before it can try anything. Especially since Victory had 65lb guns that would totally destroy the sails and masts of Constitution from outside it's response range and force it into a broadside contest that it couldn't remotely compete in.

This is why ships were graded on number of guns and size over anything else. Because they were the primary winner in naval conflicts until dreadnaughts became a thing.

>>32780892
You can test it here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDSgM1Bqk4c

>>32781054
But muh meme

>>32780952
I was present at the re-enactment of Trafalgar for the bi-centenial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJwatpd_yA

was pretty good. Obviously not like the real deal but pretty good.

>>32781120
>>32781135
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose

Contemporary accounts:
According to the unnamed Fleming, the ship had fired all of its guns of one side and was turning to present the guns on the other side to the enemy ship, when she was caught in a strong gust of wind, heeled and took in water through the open gunports.[71] In a letter to William Paget dated 23 July, former Lord High Admiral John Russel claimed that the ship had been lost because of "rechenes and great negligence".[72] Three years after the sinking, the Hall's Chronicle gave the reason for the sinking as being caused by "to[o] much foly ... for she was laden with much ordinaunce, and the portes left open, which were low, & the great ordinaunce unbreached, so that when the ship should turne, the water entered, and sodainly she sanke."[73]

Modern theories

The most common explanation for the sinking among modern historians is that the ship was unstable for a number of reasons. When a strong gust of wind hit the sails at a critical moment, the open gunports proved fatal, the ship flooded and quickly foundered.[76] Coates offered a variant of this hypothesis, which explains why a ship which served for several decades without sinking, and which even fought in actions in the rough seas off Brittany, unexpectedly foundered: the ship had accumulated additional weight over the years in service and finally become unseaworthy.[77] That the ship was turning after firing all the cannons on one side has been questioned by Marsden after examination of guns recovered in both the 19th and 20th centuries; guns from both sides were found still loaded. This has been interpreted to mean that something else could have gone wrong since it is assumed that an experienced crew would not have failed to secure the gunports before making a potentially risky turn.[78]

it can happen

>>32781150
>How about USS Constitution vs. HMS Java

HMS Java was a 5th rate: 46 guns, about 1,050 ton displacement.

HMS Victory was a 1st rate: 106 guns, 3,500 tons displacement.

There's absolutely no arguing that Constitution was an exceptional ship for her class - and was much heavier armoured than most - 2,000 tons, and 50 guns.

but trying to compare her to Victory is pretty much akin to comparing the Graf Spee to an Iowa. The only way constitution would have the advantage is in running away.

>>32781067
>>32781070
copper planking to delay the growth of barnacles and naval shipworms had been around for centuries and was also applied to the Victory

>>32781185
...really?

>>32781120
No, that's why the cannons were on wheel mounts after all, to minimize the recoil. Also the largest and heaviest cannons were located in the lowest battery deck, and those wooden ships performed like tumblers (provided there was no strong winds or huge amounts of water leaking through open gunports, they would easily recover from a 45 degree tilt.

>>32780935
Dat paradox of theseus tho

>>32781003
go back to the history channel, kid

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>>32781082
As if Trump's not going to fix that soon.

>>32781181
OK
USS Constitution
vs
HMS Indefatigable
winrar?

>>32784324
>HMS Indefatigable
I am going to assume you are not talking about the battle cruiser or aircraft carrier, in which case I give it to the Indie since Pellew and Hornblower would be aboard and therefor have plot armor.

>>32784324

Compare the broadside weight of the two ships. Whichever ship has more firepower is the likely winner of any engagement. It might sound like an over-simplification, but it really isn't.

>>32780935
The Constitution is not only seaworthy, they take that shit out for spins sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVRWqhvHaMo

Those rope systems look like an autist's wet dream

Constitution never fought a creditable enegagement. She only fought frigates considerably smaller and less powerful than herself and ran from anything of equal or greater force. Even so the much less powerful HMS Java almost had her.

>>32781210
Was getting sunk part of your plan?

>>32780892
As a Frenchman I fully support the USS Constitution.
Actually I would support a Papuan canoe if necessary.

>>32780935
They are both still in Active service, but only the USS Constitution is still afloat and able to sail.

Whats the major difference between them?

aint Constitution newer with iron plating and all?

If remember right the Victory out gunned all other ship in Europa of its time, cant say anything about its mobility

>>32785979
HMS Victory had 104 guns, a crew compliment of 850 and could hit the Constitution before the Constitution could get her guns in range.

>>32780892
key part in your post is 'unless sailing a ship of the line' HMS Victory is a first rate ship of the line, the Constitution would have had great difficulty successfully engaging a 3rd rate 74, let alone a 100+ gun first rate like Victory.

at trafalgar the victory was engaged at point blank range by several french ships of the line and survived, so there is little question that she could weather anything the constitution could throw at her

>>32785979
>If remember right the Victory out gunned all other ship in Europa of its time
It didn't, the majority of battleships at the time where ~74 gun third rates, but France and Spain had more powerful first rates as well.
Such as the 124+ gun Ocean class.

>>32781003
>The Victory never encountered a three-layer hull frigate that was basically impenetrable in its own time

the constitution was capable of withstanding the lighter guns of a frigate at medium to close range, point blank fire from the heavier guns of a ship of the line is a entirely different proposition.

>>32781190
not really the guns were pretty much standard designs.

some details would differ, one nation might be slightly better at QC so have guns slightly less liable to burst when overcharged but thats about it, effective ranges and throw weights tended to be pretty much identical.

the only really different pieces were the carronades which at short ranges were pure murder but laced range

>>32784820
Or perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man, before making him walk the plank.

>>32785979
>If remember right the Victory out gunned all other ship in Europa of its time
it didnt, although the better training of its crew gave it greater effective firepower, but ships like the Santísima Trinidad had 136 guns at the battle of trafalgar

>cant say anything about its mobility
considered tgo be a handy shi and a fast sailer for her rate, still more cumbersome than a frigate

>>32781228

To be more precise, it's the caliber and range of the guns that makes one ship vulnerable to the other, and in this case, the Victory not only has more cannons than the Constitution, but she has heavier cannons which outrange her own, making it exceedingly difficult for the latter to even touch her without major risk of suffering damage.

No matter how you cut the mustard, Constitution would be out of her league.

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>>32784696
you'll note that they dont set sails when there's any wind and there's tugboats very close by

find me a picture of her in color in full sail. you cant because it doesn't exist.

in 2012 the last time she set sail they set topsails only instead of mainsails and if you look at the pics, there's literally no wind.

>>32786723
>they take precautions to prevent the possible damage or loss of an important historic artifact
Why are you being autistic about this?

>>32784604
Yes, all those times the French beat the British in single ship actions.

>>32780892
There are stories of cannonballs impacting the side of the constitution and then tumbling harmlessly into the ocean. It's a very tough ship due to the live oak they used to build it.

>>32787035
>they take that shit out for spins some times
And they clearly don't.

>>32785979
>iron plating and all?
Merican education

>>32780892
>USS Constitution
My many times great granpappy helped design that ship

Doesnt matter how many guns the Victory has, the Constitution was twice as fast and could engage/withdraw combat at will and take superior firing postions

>>32789960
This. Speed > everything.

Always.

>>32780985
>ebin

>>32789960

bigger guns == greater range == naval battle akin to kicking a midget to death at stand-off range

>>32790702
>kicking a midget to death at stand-off range
except that ships dont fight standing still

ships of the line are called ships of the line because they fight in groups in line formation and pass by each other trading broadsides. These tactics only work when ships move at the same very slow speed.
once high speed frigates were invented line battles became obsolete

>>32789960
>the Constitution was twice as fast
>13 knots vs 11 knots
>twice as fast

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What could have been.

>>32789960
No it wasn't
No it isn't
It could flee slightly easier when it was being blasted outside range where it could even hope to hit victory
I love the USS Constitution but you mother fuckers are either delusional or historically illiterate retards

>>32789896
depends on the occasion. they had her sail unassisted once

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#/media/File:USS_Constitution_Sail200d.jpg

The USS Constitution, American ships where made of denser wood and could take more abuse than British ships

>>32791656
The Victory is a 1st rate with over 100 cannons
The Constitution isn't in the same god damn league, never mind the same park

>retards on here actually think a 5th rate could take a ship of the line
Constitution would run and probably escape. It wasn't designed for those fights. Also, fuck yeah Constitution thread
https://sites.google.com/site/midtermussconstitution/home/the-great-chase