Pay up or get booted

>>32743854
>>NATO is obsolete and needs to be updated

Yeah you got that one right

Cold war's over, MAD is still D, let the fuckers fend for themselves

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>>32743807
>NATO is obsolete and needs to be updated
>Members must be beholden to the same levels of spending that they had during the one of the most tense periods in recent history

?

>>32743880
The point of NATO is to be ready for armed conflict, to assist each other.
The ones under 2.0% are not ready for any form of armed conflict at all.

>>32743915
I thought it was to use Germany as a meatshield until the USA could mobilize, while also opening up a multi-front war through the Balkans and the Caucuses.

>>32743915
I have a hunch that NATO is about to be challenged. Just like Russia fucked Ukraine in 2014, directly violating the Budapest memorandum, and "the guarantors" (including US' then current administration) did absolutely nothing to uphold the treaty, I think it's about to fuck one of Baltic countries in hope that the rest of the NATO will be too afraid to interfere. And if NATO doesn't interfere - it's dead, and it will fall apart rather sooner than later.

>>32743807
% GDP seems like arbitrary bullshit desu.

Furthermore it creates a perverse incentive towards inefficiency. Why spend that 2% on useful weapons when I can just bump up salary?

>>32747004
>arbitrary bullshit
How? It's asking member states to pay a roughly fair share for their mutual protection

>>32747071
Because it doesn't actually quantify how useful that 2% spending is.

If you wanted a contribution based system to actually work, you'd need NATO to be a unified sort of supranational thing, with dedicated NATO procurement and management instead of tying together various national military forces (where some like the UK will need to act unilaterally, while others like Iceland* or Slovenia can sit on their arses and do nothing.)

*ok, ok, so they get an exception - but that's just as bullshit.

Furthermore it seems remarkably petty to complain some of the smaller non-countries aren't paying their 2% of GDP when the contribution you'd actually receive in force terms would be next to worthless.

Pretty much any measure of spending would include elements of arbitrariness, mind you. There is no "fair share" in fiscal terms. It's more political.

>>32745328
Russia would have a much better opportunity taking advantage of Scandinavian country's lack of readiness in dealing with refugees. Especially with Trump in, Putin might have tried to test NATO with Obama in, but until he sees how Trump reacts and holds himself, he's going to lay the fuck off. The chance of Trump being batshit crazy are too high for Putin to be willing to push it.

>>32747094
Countries'
Phone, please ignore my shitposting mistakes.

>>32747083
GDP is about as fair as you can get, considering how all NATO states are roughly first-world. Once 'forced' to spend 2%, all governments would naturally try to get the most bang for the buck, and so it does have a positive effect.

>>32747152
>all governments would naturally try to get the most bang for the buck
Not really. If I don't care about defence either way, why waste effort looking into the most efficient solution to a problem that I clearly don't believe exists?

If I was Portugal and you forced me at gunpoint to spend 2%, my first port of call would be increasing wages. There's no need to invest swathes of effort on everyone's part into hunting down how to do it most efficiently when what matters isn't the value of my contribution in military terms, but my contribution in fiscal terms.

2% on nice wages and limousines to carry people around bases or 2% on elite paratroopers and F-35s - it's 2% either way. Meanwhile if I've actually got pressing non-NATO commitments like lording over everyone as a superpower, cost is no object and i'll still have to seek efficiency to make sure shit works.

>>32747181
I think you grossly overestimate how much money goes into salaries and how stingy governments are with them.
Most politicians would love to take the credit for getting the military some new toys (at least in uncucked countries).
So even if all that you do is buy a few jets, that's still better than nothing.

Also NATO is very trust-based, if the trust collapses (faking spending figures or just not bothering to spend it in the first place) then the system is unstable at best.

>>32747225
>I think you grossly overestimate how much money goes into salaries and how stingy governments are with them.
I'm not saying salaries are the be all and end all. I'm saying if you want me to buy jets, say "Buy jets!" don't say "2%!", which is the whole problem with obsessing over the 2%, especially given the primary value of most of the smaller/poorer countries is geographical and political instead of direct military contribution.

Furthermore lots of countries do just game the spending figures. The UK was under 2% until they changed the way they accounted for spending to include pensions or something like that (in a way allowed by NATO and used by various NATO nations, but still.)

It simply doesn't matter whether or not someone is spending 2% of GDP. It means nothing on the ground and reflects little of political commitment. France being under 2% is perhaps a good example, given her history of working semi-independently of NATO, while Germany, Canada and Italy have been far more intertwined.

>>32747243
>France being under 2% is perhaps a good example
Whoops, meant to reword that:
France being *nearly* 2% is a good example, while the other countries are much further under

>>32747083

At this point I risk becoming the "Percentage autism guy" but >>32735353

When you just look at those numbers it seems aloof and incomprehensible, same way a lot of bureaucratic statistics do. To try and contextualize how much money is not being paid I did a real quick layperson experiment - check GNP (I Mixed up GDP and GNP acronyms there, my bad), get missing percentage of it. Find an expensive and high-end asset like an aircraft or a tank or whatever to use as a metric. Get the estimated price, divide missing percentage's worth by estimated price.

Obviously in my example Czechs aren't going to spend their 2.8 billion ONLY on 52 JAS 39 Gripen (Right now they only have 12 leased by the Swedes), the Germans won't spend their 29 billion ONLY on 284 Typhoons (only got about 88 right now). But that shows the tangible value of billions or millions which we mere civilian mortals can find incomprehensible. The percentage deficits are a lot more than just some trifling affair. It would allow the US to scale back its own assets in the region and prioritize spending elsewhere, such as Asia-Pacific. Also it would help mitigate the isolationist aspirations growing in the US. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of and be mooched off.

Course there's a risk of >>32747181 but ideally there can be mechanisms to stipulate you must spend it on X hardware, Y manpower, Z R&D.

>>32747276
I don't want to diminish the value of the example, but ongoing maintenance makes me think the actual amount of hardware you could afford is probably greatly reduced from the simple purchase cost.

The USA has a relatively free hand as it is. They have up until recently wanted to be in Europe, so my impression is that any increase in NATO nation spending wouldn't be met with a consequential reduction in US spending. Now that the USA is wavering, they could always force Europe's hand if it bothers them that much.

>>32743878
lol. fuck off 5th columnist ruskii

>>32747326

Yeah your point is a good consideration since this stuff isn't buy it and forget it.

And I imagine the freed up spending less as going back into the US Domestic spending on entitlements or whatever and more just a shift of assets, opening up more funding for our own R&D or just being used elsewhere.

>>32747083
>let's make NATO a massively complicated bureaucracy just because

>>32747937
It would be less bureaucratically complicated to have one huge unified NATO army than trying to wrangle 28 different armies. Economies of scale nigga.

Now, politically you've got the problem of a huge stateless army, but it'd be damn good army until it declared itself head of the European Junta.

>>32747941
European Army was good in theory, until the cucky disaster that is the EU came about

>>32743969
>I thought it was to use Germany as a meatshield

Working pretty well right now, fuckers are sucking up arabs like a 10 year old Iraqi in makeup

>>32745328
>Did absolutely nothing to uphold the treat

Which is why all those Russian troops that amassed on the border backed the fuck off and Putins consolation prize is a land locked crap hole

>>32743915
does this faggot even know how percentages work? they're relative. under 2% doesn't mean anything without further information.

>>32743807
http://carnegieeurope.eu/2015/09/02/politics-of-2-percent-nato-and-security-vacuum-in-europe-pub-61139

>>32747225
>I think you grossly overestimate how much money goes into salaries
Stop talking out of your ass and take a look at the actual data:
http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160704_160704-pr2016-116.pdf

>>32747986
>Putins consolation prize is a land locked crap hole
...Crimea?

>>32747276
You really are an autist for making a post filled with lots of numbers and zero informative value. First of all: the only guys that use flyaway cost of airplanes are marketing guys who wanna hide true costs and make their product look more affordable and laymen who don't have a clue at all. What good are new airplanes without the fuel to propel them, without the weapons to make them useful, without the personnel to man them, without the personnel to maintain them, without the personnel and materiel to resupply them, without the personnel to command them, without the infrastructure to house them and their logistics chain, without the other weapon systems and their respective logistics chains they need to have to operate jointly with in order to become at all effective in the first place?

So you made a big post to come to the conclusion that the 2% of GDP measure should be amended by a guideline for hardware expenditures WHICH ALREADY EXISTS YOU COMPLETE FOOL.
>"Allies who currently spend less than 20% of their annual defence spending on major new equipment, including related Research & Development, will aim, within a decade, to increase their annual investments to 20% or more of total defence expenditures."
-- http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_112964.htm

Seriously, if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about just shut the fuck up.

>>32743807
>Norway and Latvia both at 1.5%
>Norway's bar is still bigger than Latvia's

The fuck is this fake poll?

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>>32747004

Which is why there are two targets, 2% of GDP, of which 20% should be spent on equipment. You just don't see the second one mentioned on the news, but it is a discussed topic within NATO.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160704_160704-pr2016-116.pdf

See graph 3 and Table 6a

>>32748084
Considering how zoomed in it is, 1.51 and 1.59 probably create a noticeable difference

>>32747966
Is it in your genes or why do you always get triggered when you see the word german?

>want to get out of NATO
>still spend billions on aid to Israel

kek, Trump is such a kike shill

>>32748387
Considering my genes are mostly german and seeing what they've become

Yes.

>>32747991
This chart has been thrown around by a variety of faggots misinterpreting it for some time now

>>32747986
He got Crimea, Eastern Ukraine was a mistake but it's not really his problem even though it's his fault.

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>>32745328

>I think it's about to fuck one of Baltic countries in hope that the rest of the NATO will be too afraid to interfere. And if NATO doesn't interfere - it's dead, and it will fall apart rather sooner than later.

Thats a heck of a gamble when you look at the 2 possible outcomes:

possibility nr.1:
Russia invades the baltics but NATO doesnt respond. NATO de facto dissolves and russia gets its old sphere of influence back.

possibility nr.2:
Russia invades the baltics but NATO responds with a full blown military campaign. Russia is now at war with the most powerful military alliance in modern times. Russia inevitably looses.

>>32748821
Both wont happen, Russian dont give a fuck to the Baltics, the real deal is Urakine and Georgia.

And in a War with Russia vs NATO there's no winners everyone lose.

>>32748821
The fucks the point of a graphic comparing Russian troop counts to NATO? No chance in hell they'd go to all out war without involvement from China and other allies.

>>32748855
>Ukraine
>Georgia
Despite the fact that russians are subhuman savages, not even they would want the hellholes that is Ukrain or Georgia.
They already have the small parts they need from both of them.
What they do lack is a land bridge to Kaliningrad.

If the U.S. left everyone would not have to pay that much more so long as everyone agreed to pay like, .2% more across the board. And every NATO country could afford it.

The issue is placed like Greece, France, all of Scandinavia, etc getting used to having an easy ride on the backs of the U.S., UK, and Germany.

I mean, c'mon. We all know fucking...Spain of all fucking places could afford to pay a fraction of a percent more.


It would also help Europe a ton in the long run. If they were more self serving in terms of defense, that would eventually help them out in almost every other facet of economy, life, technology, etc.

>>32748970
>The issue is placed like Greece, France, all of Scandinavia, etc getting used to having an easy ride on the backs of the U.S., UK, and Germany.
Germanfag here, you got it all wrong, Greece and France are actually have quite the military investment, germany is a bit of a slacker in this regard, but they tend to do a lot in not direct military involvement, like logistics, providing straigh money, intelligence or spend the money on stuff like refugees.

>>32749084
Well we're talking about amounts of money here. Not necessarily involvment or logistics.

Greece does not spend as much as Germany. Not even close. They may do more of other stuff, sure. But they have gotten away with actually shelling out less monetarily.

Tl'dr, Greece skates by doing the bare minimum asked of it. France at least tries to match Germany and the UK. But even that comes down to them knowing that they really don't have to try all that hard since nothing will happen if they don't pay as much.

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>>32747094
>The chance of Trump being batshit crazy are too high for Putin to be willing to push it.
Trump is bluster and talk. He folds a lot when he's put to the test, he's also easily goaded into stupid actions.

And of course, he sucks putin's cock.

>>32748935
>China
>ally

kek

Meanwhile actual US allies like Japan, South Korea and so on are ignored.

>>32743878
This, fuck Europe. If Russia wants them, they can have 'em.

>>32749353
Really? Because Trump already did a major executive order on Obama care and signed us out of TPP this morning. Hardly being all talk.

>>32750861
Fuck off. 70 years of the most peaceful and prosperous time in human history and you want to dismantle it to appease our enemy. Why?

>>32748970
Spain most def does more than most considering it has fairly advanced frigates with AEGIS and really robust ASW force of P-3s

>>32750919
People who are upset and frustrated in their own lives have a tendency to lash out childishly at things they don't understand or don't believe are important in their incredibly naive and uninformed world view.

>>32748821
All those tanks and boats and soldiers mattered little in the end, Putin just flooded the Internet with shills into NATO self destructed

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>>32750919
Minus Poland and the Swiss, Europoors are nothing but a bunch of mixracing libshits and I don't give care if another bloodshed happens in that hell hole.

>>32743807
Fucking Canada I always knew you were useless

>>32748943
They do, they keep increasing the border zones with Georgia and Ukraine to fit their needs.

>>32748855
They do give a fuck about the Baltics, they want to bring them back into their sphere of influence....assuming it doesn't go nuclear, NATO wins

>>32750967
Even if you have absolutely 0 empathy for Europe you're still fucking yourself by diminishing your own countries influence and wealth

>>32750967
>I'm a coward and am not willing to stand with allies

>>32750896
He has to keep the people who voted for him happy. Although something like 20 million people will be without health care if it's repealed.

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>>32750967
>Europoors are nothing but a bunch of mixracing libshits and I don't give care if another bloodshed happens in that hell hole.

woah really makes you think

>>32750967
Switzerland literally has the highest percentage of foreign born immigrants in Europe, kek

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>>32750967
>Oh, racially pure Switzerland, I hail thee
The less knowledge, the stronger the opinion...

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>>32751018

>>32743878
1000% this.

American troops for American soil, American money for American citizens.

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>>32750995
>I don't care about you or your people
>YOU'RE A COWARD
I mean, really? I get calling him a flaming homosexual and a fucking dickfaced nigger. Just because he doesn't want to be your friend anymore mean he's a coward. To be fair, you euro's are fucking assholes. Euro's have open resentment and animosity towards the US, but the moment they say "fuck off and defend yourself" we're cowards? Fuck off, defend yourself.

>>32747991
>>32748557
the US has the largest GDP of all of those by a country mile, and it is the largest % figure on the chart as well.

quibble between yourselves all you want about who was 2nd and who was 3rd, but first do the fucking math.

I don't get why the new hot thing is to want Yuropoors to pay their "fair share" when NATO is just an extension of the American Empire. We pay the the politicians and journalists and businessmen to be on our side, the average Yuropoor has pretty much no say in it.

Canada here, sure thing you schmucks still have to protect us anyway NATO or not

>>32752105
>this victim complex

seems you couldn't handle the banter on /k/

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>>32750948
Look whose talking, when you're openly taking advantage of a country and hold open resentment toward the main proponent of your defense, I believe it is YOU who are naive. How naive do you have to be to rely on another country to defend YOUR OWN SOVEREIGNTY. You don't take advantage of someone else economically, socially, diplomatically and expect them to still defend you after you berate them. That is not how alliances work and that's not it should be.

Have fun with the Russians.

>>32752213
>victim complex

Nigga what, I'm calling you an ungrateful faggot that doesn't contribute shit and this makes me have a victim complex? lol wtf

>cant handle the banter

Do you have autism? How is "can't handle the bantz" a reply to someone calling you a stupid faggot.

>>32743807
5% of nothing would still be nothing tb h, most of those cunts are puny and irrelevant

>>32752207
Canada has no external threats and doesn't need a military at all, for anything. Be happy.

>>32752044
Go to bed Trump.

>>32749353
Why is Putin riding that slim, less tanned Trump?

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>>32749353
He's already bowed out of diplomatic talks vis a vis Syria and Germany has all but decided to ignore our leadership in the future.

This is the future I feared. We are on an unavoidable path to an independent and rearmed Europe under strong German leadership. Even after we rid ourselves of Trump, our position in the world will be lessened and we might find ourselves at odds with Europe in the distant future.

NATO won't dissolve, it just won't have us at the heart and center. It was an extension of our military policy, but now it will cater to the whims of a revitalized EU. Worse still, an EU where we can't rely on the UK to moderate and soften their anti-American positions.

>>32752295
I'm not the other guy you were replying too.

There's no resentment against Americans in Europe. Leave your basement, travel a bit and you'll see. Thinking Europe collectively hates your guts while its literally not true IS having a victim complex.

>>32752220
Forgot the part were the US invoked Article 5 after 9/11 and Europeans gave their life for the US there mister

>>32752381
Is Trump a cuck?

>>32743807
lol k then. boot them all. but don't forget to withdraw your cunting murrican shitstains from these countries, too, then.

>>32752220
I live in the United States and benefit economically from a stable Europe. Also, "How naive do you have to be to rely on another country to defend YOUR OWN SOVEREIGNTY" is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. For example, how would the Baltic states counter Russian aggression without forming any kind of defensive pact? Not every country is the United States.

Dismantling something that allows the US military to operate over an entire continent because you feel slighted that countries don't want to spend the same amount of money that they did during a time when a legitimate threat really existed, is naive.

>>32752381
There is nothing to war over, so good for Europe if it rejects a degenerate US. Our military policy after the Wall fell has been utterly counterproductive.

We've done literally everything wrong.

Europe is better off without US leadership, and the US should become isolationist. We should have stayed out of WWI and WWII. All the US does is bleed for interventionism which does nothing for Americans.

The American public gains nothing defending Europe for the Jew, or Asia for the Jew. We die for Wall Street who outsource our jobs and crash our economy. Fuck the world. Americans would be better off if we never intervened between the Japs and Chinks to provoke WWII in the East. We do not rely on trade for survival, and more to the point we can trade with anyone!

>>32752389
>leave your basement
Have you? I can assure you that there are a lot of open resentment of having our bases in their countries, I've experienced first hand. Now they complain about potentially removing said bases. Unbelievable.
>>32752418
>dumbest thing I've ever read
When you rely 100% on the global hegemon to defend you and you think it's going to be the same for the next 1000 years, you sir are a fool.

>>32752389
And they contributed what? The only countries that contributed anything were the Brits. You sure gave a lot of lives for us! As a matter of fact, your minor involvement, which can be summed up to 'minor skirmishes' was so impactful, it makes up for WW1, WW2 and the cold war!

>>32752444
>Americans would be better off if we never intervened between the Japs and Chinks to provoke WWII in the East.

Then either the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany would control the entirety of Europe, which would seriously hurt us economically because both of those countries desired autarky. We'd be completely boned on trade to the point that the depression, which we wouldn't have gotten out of without the war for many more years, would be exacerbated and our economy would have never become any close to what we have today.

>>32752444
I can't tell if you're a paid troll or a legitimate retard.

That worries me.

>>32752460
>When you rely 100% on the global hegemon to defend you and you think it's going to be the same for the next 1000 years

Because the US is the only member of NATO.

>>32752418
There is nothing wrong with us renegotiating so it is in favor of the US. We should be, by default, getting deals that are more in our favor because of our contribution to Europe's defense.

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Pay up or get booted

On notice:
West VA
VA
Kentucky
North Carolina
South Carolina
Mississippi
Georgia
Alabama
Tennessee
Georgia
Oklahoma
Kansas
Indiana
Missouri
Iowa
Wyoming
Idaho
Montana
N. Dakota
S. Dakota
Utah
Arizona
New Mexico
Louisiana
Vermont
Maine
Maryland
Florida

>>32752539
Evidently seeing as scaling down our involvement is causing everyone to be so fucking butthurt globally. Frances ex-PM called it a declaration of war at the mere notion of revising it. Since you're confident in your ability to defend yourself, there should be no problem with our withdrawal or change of NATO?

>>32752574

It is in favor of the US, we have access to all member nations and greatly expands upon our ability deploy anywhere near Europe. Also it is a MUTUAL defensive pact, which is why NATO countries contributed to our operations in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent Iraq. Also you have a poor grasp on the fundamentals of international relations.

>>32752600
I don't see how this is relevant to anything.

>>32752626
Worthless leach states not contributing to the American military alliance (aka the Feds)
Are you a worthless taker or something?

>>32750919
Because fuck Europe, that's why. They have been riding a gravy train ever since we rebuilt them after WW2, all the while looking down on us for not being progressive retards. Fuck. Europe. Any US citizens that want the US to be more like Europe - SJW's, Democrats, et al, can go join Europe.

And then I hope to God Russia just fucking purges the entire continent.

>>32752309
Yeah you really shut his point down.

Moron.

>>32752614
US withdrawal from NATO would most likely result in the formation of one or more alternative defensive alliances to tackle more or less the same concerns from the previous pact. The US would have much tougher time deploying to the Mediterranean and Middle East while also losing strategically valuable bases.

>>32752600
God I wish

>>32752668
Oh, so you're just an idiot then. Alright.

>>32752460
Which bases? Which countries?

>>32752506
It isn't a dickmeasuring contest to see who suffered the most. The US suffered about 2400 casualties in that war, the rest of the NATO members about half of that. That's not insignificant, I would say.

>WW1/WW2
I'm not going there because this has nothing to do with NATO and all to do with US becoming a superpower.

>>32752621
I agree on the part to deploy in Europe, but is there any real need to? The entire point is, why do we need to defend Europe form a non existent threat? Alliances are great and all, but THIS alliance is outdated, there is no one rushing across the Fulda Gap to take over Europe. I hold my position on there is no reason to put ourselves in a position where we pointlessly spend on defending Europe form Russia.

NATO's contribution to Afghanistan is something you would scoff at, Iraq to a much greater extent.

>>32752600
Except CA has a shit-ton of looming expenses - pensions, benefits, healthcare, etc - that they aren't going to be able to pay for. They've promised the sky and they won't be able to deliver. It's a miracle they aren't like Detroit tbqh.

>>32752695
>why do we occupy our vassals
>vassals we conquered in the bloodiest war ever
Gee, I don't know.

>>32752668
You're mad because they're doing well and you are so insecure in how they view us that you're willing to jeopardize US standing in the international community and our ability to deploy our forces over seas?

>>32752666
This has nothing to do with the discussion, what does the contribution to its own military of smaller states belonging to a sovereign nation have ANYTHING to do with an expansive military alliance.

Don't bring up some, completely random issue that as absolutely no association with the topic.

>>32751009
Man if only you know they had a way to get some. Oh that's right they could you know pay for it.

>>32752707
Based on what? Their ever-growing economy? The fact that everyone wants to live there so badly that they could charge for entry?

They're a little pie in the sky for me too, but let's not pretend that the largest agricultural base, largest port, and largest economy in the entire country are suddenly going to go belly up. They're a diversified economy that can withstand quite a lot of blows.

The only weakness they have right now is water, and it's only a matter of time before cheap desalinization becomes a reality.

>>32752692
It isn't about dickmeasuring, I agree, it's about equal contribution (or relative contribution, I understand there's no fucking way to field the same forces we do) to an alliance, that is in defense of THEM in the first place.

>>32752691
Yeah you're not giving any concrete reasons why the US should give a fuck about Europe. Trade with them if they're there, trade with Russia if they annex, who cares?

Not my continent, not my problem.

I'd rather spend the money at home.

Besides, Europe is so great, they can take care of themselves. After all the EU guarantees they will be successful on their own. Europe Stronk! Right?

>>32752695
Threats come and go with the times, and its better to maintain the ability to respond quickly and effectively in important regions, especially one as economically valuable as Europe. Also the US is the only force really equipped to move a large number of forces to another continent.

>>32752751
We're being fucking flooded now, fuck this gay earth, if its not one extreme its another. I have to fucking sandbag everything

>>32752783
Climate change is a bitch.

>>32752713
Mad because they're doing well? No. I just don't give a shit about the "international community" that you seem to have a hard on for. Trade with everyone, alliances with none, deal with our own problems at home.

Again. Let's be honest. Is anyone in this thread wanting to go fight and die for our "European Allies"? I sure as hell won't. I don't care what international crises occur. Not my problem.

Y'know. The same attitude the Swedes and the Swiss take.

>>32752780
I agree, threats do come and go, but they're also rapidly changing, especially in how we fight them. Our alliance is out dated and needs to be revise, what changes need to be made? I can only offer you ill advised and uneducated opinions and I'll leave that for those that studied in that area. What we're doing right now, is obviously no longer working and is completely counter productive to what we want.

>>32752820
>Not my problem.
It is your problem. We have ordered the world to cater to our every whim and a disruption to that order causes pain here in America.

Whether you can or even want to recognize that is irrelevant.

>>32752820
Their is no real "community", but we benefit massively by a stable international system, especially one where our most important economic partners don't have to worry about armed conflict. An international crisis like a large continent spanning war has wide spread economic and political consequences, it will hit you in the pocket book like nothing else.

>>32752105
Well, I'm not European, so swing and a miss on the first bit. Well, in the USA (where I'm from) saying you're going to do something then bitching out of a fight at the last second makes you a coward.
Secondly the whole "Europeans hate Americans" is a leftover from the whole "french are surrender monkeys" when Europe grew half a brain and didn't invade Iraq with us. It's Fox News stupidity, most people are for the most part (like everywhere else in the world) generally good people who just want to get on with their lives. Do we have disagreements, of course, but playing that "they're ungrateful" card is a total cop out and you know it. Go to the various cemeteries in Europe and then come back and say they're not grateful.

>>32752460
The base resentment happens when it's politically convenient to do so. They're mainly leftist and green groups that protest (who were supported by the KGB in the Cold War).

>>32752444
Isolationist policies have literally never worked for any country that implemented them. They're (other nations) will just find someone else to fill the vacuum and we'll be left behind. Also, the Jews have nothing to do with this. Fuck off, man.

>>32752724
since you appear to be thick as a brick i will enlighten you
the analogy is that just because not everyone is contributing the same proportional amount doesn't mean that they aren't worthwhile to keep in the coalition

under the analogy of "pay up or get out" for NATO you'd kick out people who weren't paying their share thereby depriving them of the collective benefits of being in the coalition

similarly under the same mode of thinking you'd take the states that receive more federal money than contribute and kick them out because they're not "pulling their weight"

either way it's retarded to boil it down into R U PAYIN ENUF?!?

>>32752910
I understand your analogy, I'm saying you're fucking moron for bring up an completely different issue. It's so fucking different that it's completely in a different category, with a completely different dynamic and is incredibly fucking alien to what we're talking about.

IE, I'm saying you're dumb and you should stop posting.

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just another reason to hate luxembourg

>>32752986
Luxembougians are the most powerful race in the world

>>32752986
Fuck you Luxembourg

>>32752892
Not any of the other posters you replied to. I'm Asian-American (i hate using this shit but feel like it might dispel some assumption of me being another white boi American), I've never been outside of America except I've been to Mexico several times, being they are bordered right next to San Diego when I lived there. I only see messages posted on forums, reddit, 4chan and anything that has an international group of people. I have to say I've seen over a slightly more negative connotation with being an American, but I guess I can assume most people online are more liberal thought leaning and have much more animosity towards American politics. I know there's been many topics that gets asked on reddit AMA about "what do euro likes about us" that to me is a pretty much accepted assumption by the general consensus that there is some underlying dislike of Americans, especially if we have a US base in your town and I don't blame them we ship off our young degenerates and they do degenerate things.

I dunno what this is supposed to achieve, just bringing in my 2 cents I guess.

>>32752756
I agree, and most European nations ARE increasing defense spending, but don't expect to see everyone bump it by 100% overnight. We're still at peace and Russia really doesn't pose a threat to most European countries. Hell, a lot of them even want to see the sanctions lifted. On top of that, lobbying for a stronger military has been going downhill since the Cold War and it's hard to get that rolling again, especially after the recession which took Europe a lot longer to recover from than the US.

>>32752733
what if they can't afford to? Do you not help out other Americans?

>>32752771
Because it'll be much harder on us to trade with e revitalized Russia if they seize the baltics.

>>32753027
I don't want to increase spending, I want to revise NATO, its obsolete. We're not fighting the threats that NATO was designed for in the first place. I'm not saying we should overhaul it and optimize it for a specific threat, but with the advent of AGTM's, JDAM's, and Nukes; Russian tanks are NOT going to be crossing the Fulda Gap. Thing's are changing and we need to change and not waste our money on irrelevant shit.

>>32753055
They could get rid of their Iphones.
Or go without. Shit I don't care what they do. I have health insurance because I work for a living.

>>32753070
But all the same, Russia has shown that it will invade countries, then deflect criticisms of the invasion by calling everybody who disagrees a CIA Nazi gay loving plant. It has been making many nations very nervous, including a few allies. Russian will always decry the build up of forces in Europe as provocative, but will refuse to accept it's solely because of their actions. The Baltic Air Policing mission was scheduled to be cancelled before they went romping around Ukraine.

>>32753020
No, people on an AMA are not a general consensus, what would cause you to think that? Go, go out and travel throughout Europe. The older people are ecstatic they don't have to deal with the Russians anymore. Most American bashing is the hip thing for young anarchists to do because it makes them feel edgy.

>>32753076
Spoken like someone whose never lived in poverty. IDK where you get these ideas, but most people are on welfare because without it, they would be in deep shit. All the stuff about blacks not working and living off welfare is super overblown. Does it happen, yes, is it kinda infuriating, yes, but most people need it to survive. The poverty they are in is bad enough where you need to plan out your meals at the beginning of each week and PRAY nothing unexpected happens to you, your family or your job. Not to mention PRAY that the rates on the bus don't go up, because you'll be super fucked. God forbid you need to go to the hospital, because then you'll pay 5 years just repaying for a simple surgery, even with assistance from the hospital.

>>32753076
Any they don't work? What if you're town is so shitty and poor that they only place you could get a job is some fast food place, what then? What happens if you work 16 hour days BARELY scraping by, then you get injured on the job and need to go to the hospital or doctors office? Well shit, all that money you just saved up and needed is now gone. Not only gone, but you're waaaay in the red. What then? Might you just tell them, work harder?

>>32753171
>implying I didn't grow up poor as fuck
>implying I didn't go hungry because my mother had schizophrenia and was bipolar
>implying I didn't join the navy to escape that life
Now I have a job and a skill. Just because you make shit decisions doesn't mean I should be required to pay for them.
You speak as if your problems are mine and you shouldn't have to work to fix them.

>>32753121
>Russia has shown that it will invade countries
It has, but not in the traditional sense. I agree we need to address that issue and have a defense against that. However, going back to cold war mentality is fucking dangerous and stupid.

>>32753171
As someone who worked his way out of abject, generational poverty working overnights at a gas station in the ghetto, I can say with absolute certainty that most poor people and most people receiving either WIC or SNAP choose not to work and waste what money they do have on luxuries like tobacco, electronics, and living entirely off restaurant food.

The next motherfucker I see with a brand new Escalade with rimz and a $10,000 ghettoblasting sound/audio system trying to buy his 40s of Old E and blunt wraps with a SNAP card I'm gonna slash his tires. It's literally an hourly occurrence here.

>>32753201
Yeah living in a shitty town is an excuse because the military doesn't exist. Living in a shitty town is an excuse because to move it would be difficult. Wahhh why should my life be hard when some people don't have a hard life? Wahhh.
Grow the fuck up. You have options you chose to not take them because it would be difficult. This is not my fault. Many people have a shit life. You can get out if you are willing to work. In your situation the person had already fucked up. They should have worked harder in school. They should have try to learn a skill. They chose to not do such things they chose to stay in the town.

I lived in bum fuck Kentucky growing up. I could have been the person you are talking about instead I chose to want a better life for myself and my kids.

Sorry your life sucks. Fix it.

>>32753209
That makes it even more baffling, BOTH of us know how soul crushingly terrible it is to be poor as shit. It's awful. Do you not want to save other Americans from that fate, where your life is dictated as a failed one before you're even out of grade school? Yes, many join the service but what about people who can't join because of medical reason or commitments at home?

>>32753209
>>32753247
Those problems that afflict your neighborhoods are nation wide. Many people don't see the point in hard work because no one is (or has historically) met them half way. That's where government assistance comes in, to alleviate some of the shitty conditions to afford them some wiggle room to make things better for themselves. A few years ago, the NYC school system changed it approach to inner city schooling and started seeing a huge rise in attendance and significant drop in gang related activity, both in the school and surrounding areas. Many people don't care and live the "here and now" life because they're convinced nobody gives a shit about them, and the whole "I have mine" attitude doesn't help.

>>32753247
>>32753171

I've been raised with food stamps back when they were paper monopoly check books and other subsidies, my parents moved us away from the ghetto community and us children became assimilated to Western ideology and culture. We all got good jobs, most of us got college degrees and the youngest is going to college still.

I agree there are bad assholes taking advantage of the system, but I would say the ones who need it the most are using it to their benefit of their ability. I just wish we could lock down the system and kick out the degenerates who abuse the system.

>>32753338
Well, now it's not a shit life, I live in Northern California. It's fairly nice.
Yes, there are many who make shitty decisions regarding finances, schooling and such, but what about people who honestly try their hardest to get out of that life? Would it not have helped had you been able to get some sort of assistance (be it financial, medical, etc)? I'm sure it would have, but you were also working which meant you could build up your finances, get on your feet and have moments dedicated to your and your families future and not just about survival.

>>32753076
>I have health insurance because I work for a living.
Good for you.

We don't plan for success, we plan for failure. You anecdotal experiences and emotions aside, it's a waste of resources to ignore such a glaring problem.

I don't know why everyone feels the need to share their personal experiences about being poor. This isn't about you; we have hard data to back this up. Remove yourself from the problem and approach it logically.

>>32753360
Well unfortunately we BOTH know that can't happen, there will always be shitheads who game the system (the same is true in literally every community that provides services for the common good).
I'm going to assume you're black based on the fact you said ghetto would I be correct?

>>32747094
Trump's talk suggests he's more likely to pull out of Europe than to actually honor USA's commitment to her allies.

>>32753449
This right here, nobody think bad things will happen to them, it's human nature.

>>32753338
Question my dude: What if you raised you kids, they turned out to be great members of society who work just like all the others, then something terrible happens (financial, medical, whatever) to them and they're put in a bad way where they are, in effect just barely treading water with a bleaker outlook with every passing second. Would you like to tsee them get some sort of assistance to help them get back on track? Imagine if some person not privy to anything that's going on and said "They just need to work harder". If they were my kids, I'd want to clock that dude.

>>32743807
There is no mechanism for removing NATO member states against their will.
A country may only leave the alliance of its own volition starting from April 1 1970, per article 13.

>>32753452
Nah, I'm Asian.
It is unfortunate the system will be game and I know there is no real solution to it.

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This thread could not be more full of fudd anti-trump retards. I didn't vote for trump but I'm glad he won to piss you retards off.

>>32753348
Anon. I get what your trying to say. I understand why you say it. My issue is that I know plenty of people from where I grew up that just don't care. They don't try to leave the lower class they are content with being mediocre, satisfied being poor. Nothing to drive them up and out. I don't think that all forms of welfare should be abolished and removed. I think it needs reform though and it should be more strict. Their should be more assistance for those very clearly attempting to get out of poverty, which declines if you aren't improving.
>>32753397
The post wasn't meant to be directed at you as a person just "you" as a hypothetical poor person.
I'm not particularly convinced that those that do try their hardest still fail that said see above where I clarify that I don't want to completely remove welfare of all kinds.
>>32753449
>we plan for failure
Don't. Plan for success and execute the plan.
>waste of resources
Yeah we could you know reduce welfare then it's not such a waste now. Bang problem solved.
>This isn't about you
This isn't about you. Society doesn't care your poor that's your problem. You not making your phone payments doesn't affect me.

>>32753495
Funny you should mention that my oldest (22) is fighting lymphoma, he's still under my insurance luckily. I have spent a good bit preventing him from financially going under, that said I wouldn't want to REQUIRE other people to pay for it. Would it be nice? Sure but it's a luxury a luxury I wouldn't expect you to pay for. No one is required to pay for his bills but him.
It sucks though. That's life. Even without insurance he wouldn't have been refused care. Would you prefer to pay off a a large medical bills or die? People seem to treat debt like it's the end of the world. It's not.
I think medical insurance is important, if you do too you should pay for it.

>>32753711
>Don't. Plan for success and execute the plan.
Ah, a cunning stratagem if ever there was one.

When will binland and Sweden join NATO? That could be the spark

>>32753725
Yeah it was a shitpost to respond to a shitpost.
Honestly though people get focused in on how shitty things are and miss opportunities to succeed because they are distracted.

>>32752600
>Minus spending
Hmmmmm

>>32753711
I'm for the most part all the people you've been replying to.
1. They don't care because for the most part, they have been given scraps to fight over. They're content because they know nobody will either help or think about helping until it's time for another election, then promises galore.

2.You say you don't want to remove the welfare net, but that's exactly whats going to happen to millions of Americans. They'll lose their coverage and spend the rest of their lives just trying to break even in terms of money. Lots of people try their hardest to get out, some make it, some don't but by removing the assistance given by the government, were essentially casting them off into the void. If I knew, no one was going to help out no matter how hard I try, I'd be hard pressed to not fuck off with the money I DO receive.

3. An when he's off your insurgence at 26, then what? His illness means he can't work like most others, which means he'll work longer the fewer days he's available to. We pay for everything else, why is it so bad when it pertains to healthcare? Literally every other nation does and they pay proportionally LOWER than we do per person simply BECAUSE of the safety net. What if you can't afford a policy? What if it's between health insurgence or gas money which is providing the food on your table?

>>32748821
Russia could probably rush to the English channel with some basic preparation and the absence of escalation to a nuclear war. Not one country outside of the UK is prepared for any conflict in the region. Those numbers are inflated by the US, which has bases in the region but not enough to do more than slow down the Ruskies. They have zero chance of winning in the long run without outside intervention (which is inevitable but unpredictable) but the cost would be massive for all involved you'd be inviting a power play by the chinks and others.

>>32753854
>>32753711
It seems to me that for all the talk of a work requirement for welfare, an education/training requirement would be more effective.
>"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and you don't have to give him any more of your hard earned fish"
and all that
Extend it to trade apprentice ships and vocational training and limit it to training programs and fields that provide a reasonable rate of return. No getting an associates in psychology on government assistance, for example. If we incentivize training, retraining, and education we can fill the numerous understaffed trades, nudge people towards self sufficiency, and reduce the cost of such programs in the long run. Invest in America's workforce rather than paying people to be poor.

Thoughts?

I'm aware this is already done through financial aid, but it could be restricted to degrees with a good return and expanded to training other than education.

>>32753171
I grew up with divorced parents, of which I lived with my mother and stepdad half the time. The fact that they (and by extension, me and my siblings) were denied welfare because "They didn't qualify" is bullshit. Additionally, seeing niggers roll around in a escalade and buy 40 packs blacks and milds with an EBT card infuriated me to no end.

Anyone who abuses the Welfare system, and/or refuses to work all while buying vast amounts of shit they dont need should be barred from receiving their monthly gibsmedats

>>32753854
1. We currently have welfare and people aren't moving up in class. You seem to speak like we don't have any and the system is dying so we need to double down. Do you think the European system is better where you pay 50% of your income so everyone can live a mediocre life?

2. I'm not the government. I don't make the laws. I can only vote for those who I believe best represent my views and who I believe will speak for me. Or I can run for a public office. Few people truly try to get out in my opinion (we seem to have opposing views here). Most make a piss poor attempt and fail. You can't blame society for getting your girlfriend pregnant while you work a minimum wage job and now you can't make rent.
When I was growing up and found out no one will help me I realized I had to do it myself or I would die after living a poor life.

3. We have the best Healthcare in the world. Not the best Healthcare system but the best heathcare. He doesn't have to schedule an appointment 2-3 months out. He can be seen tomorrow for whatever he needs. Not many other nations can say that. I'm retired navy and still work for the .mil. Not exactly something I'm worried about. At 26 he will need his own insurance.

>>32753964
I agree with this education is the best way out of poverty. In my area the high schools all have vocational schools and a technology school. There are tons of jobs out there and no one to fill them because they lack the skills.
I'm all for improving our educational system through technical training. Honestly I think after middle school you should have the option of high school or technical school. But you have to choose at least one.

>>32753860
top kek

First of all you generally need like 3/4x the troop size in an offensive war, something Russia does not have.
Secondly, they're not doing so well in eastern Ukraine (the poorest country in Europe).
Thirdly, Europe's GDP is literally 20 times the size of Russia's, the gap isn't even funny. Russia depends on Europe for half their imports AND exports. It's already dirt poor, you can imagine how it would go if they lose half their GDP.

Russia has nukes and enough troops to act as a solid meat shield against an invasion, that's all. They would thoroughly get BTFO if they try something funny, both on the battlefield and economically.

>prepared for conflict
Buzzwords, but any European military is better trained and better equipped than the average Russian soldier

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>>32753854
To add to >>32754095 I'm probably done arguing/discussing this. Hopefully if you don't agree you at least understand my side of the argument a little better. I did enjoy discussing/arguing though. I understand where you are coming from and you want the best for everyone. I do too. As I've aged I've learned that it's harder to make it a reality and that not everyone thinks the same way. So while if you are/were in a bad spot you might just need a little help to escape others see that help as something they should always get.
Back to the guns and a little less /pol/ for me.
Enjoy my newest acquisition.

>>32753171
Are you serious? The things you are describing are NORMAL LIFE. Having to deal with that kind of stuff isn't some kind of tragic circumstance that we all have a dury to fight.

Dealing with those things is why people work. By the time you run into the kinds of trouble you can't afford you have others who will help you for free, it's called friends and family. If you can't manage to get either of those, what makes you think you deserve help to begin with?

Grow up.

>>32753348
Around here you have 2 kinds of poor people: those that have NEVER held a job and have never attempted to hold a job, and those that are only poor according to the IRS because they either deal drugs or work under the table.

Neither wants anybody to "meet them half way" they are extremely vocal about wanting the government to provide 100% of their needs and wants (specifically at the expense of others) while turning a blind eye to any criminal goings-on.

>>32753397
Gas station anon here.

My family received zero government assistance. Despite a combined annual household income of under $20,000 between my parents, we didn't qualify because we were white and WIC didn't exist yet in my state.

Both my parents had jobs too. My dad worked at a farm equipment factory 33.5 hours a week (so they didnt have to pay him full time or give any benefits) and my mom taught kindergarten on the local Navy base for $5 an hour because she didn't have whichever state mandatory certification was necessary and we couldn't afford the thousand dollars for her to go get it.

>>32753495
If they're great members of society who work just like all the others they will have created enough of a safety net for themselves through savings and insurance it would be literally impossible for them to get to where they're "just trading water".

>>32749122
>>32748970
Greece is a much smaller and poorer country than Germany that spends more as a % GDP. The last thing Germany wants is them blowing even more money on the military instead of engaging pointless austerity.

I believe it also has more combat jets than Germany, albeit mostly F-16s versus Typhoons.

>>32752381
This is the future I'd prayed for.

t. Briton, with an anti-American United Europe but not of it.
Bet you wish you'd let us keep the Empire now.

>>32751009
At least I won't be paying triple normal price for my health care for much longer.

>>32752044
A little over 15 years ago we were shown that our enemies won't wait for us to come to them.