Do more experienced sergeants obey younger officers?

>>32725293
He can say fuck you to the young Officer, he will end up behind bars though.

>>32725293
Technically, no, he can't. Thing is, at that point, those higher-ranked sergeants know higher-ranked officers. So, if the lieutenant tells them to do something stupid, they just get the higher-ranked officer to fuck their shit up. Or, they tell them to fuck off if the LT knows of that cloud hanging over their head.

They learn, one way or another.

>>32725314
A SNCO will not go to jail for telling a 2LT to pound sand.

>>32725293
Well, experienced NCOs are there
>to assist with leadership
>to advice

Junior officers tend to have their way, however they tend to IRL listen also.

Academic military officer training programs are quite selective also.

So, if there is one pscycopath LT. who just want to make a sgt life's hell. There is nothing he can do.

No there are other ways of handling it, he can advise him of a better way to do it and that's about as much as you can do, but if it's something stupid, unsafe or he is just being a fuckboy, they can bring it to first Sergeant, Sergeant major, etc. (Whatever level it's at) about how much of a fuckboy this lieutenant is being, then the first Sergeant, Sergeant major talks to the whatever level commander he works for, who is in a position to fuck the lieutenant up.
Seeing lieutenants get shit on by a Sergeant major is the funniest thing on the planet because it goes from "I outrank you" to getting skull fucked in seconds.

Nobody is untouchable but if someone is wrong, it doesn't matter, they are wrong

>>32725293
I think the real question is why battle hardened NCOs are still somewhat limited in advancing upwards? It's an archaic policy from a time before everybody had access to a good standard of education imo.

>>32725435
Experienced NCOs are the most important part of the military. There's always a need for more of them.

Are NCO's often college educated as well?

The best thing is watching butter bars get into literal fist fights.

>>32725390
>it goes from "I outrank you" to getting skull fucked in seconds.
True. Never underestimate years and years of gained experience and insight on how things really are in the business.

>Nobody is untouchable but if someone is wrong, it doesn't matter, they are wrong

Not complaining or anything, but that may also take it's unfair amount of time. Generally though issues get very much solved before that.

>>32725435
No, it's an excellent system. Otherwise you have leaders rising to the limit of their competency and far from the junior leaders. The way we do it allows you to keep a lot of expertise at the tactical and small team level so they can groom more young leaders effectively. Without those SNCOs the LTs would be lost, and small teams would be far less effective.

>>32725450
Yes. It is a requirement to promote now days.

>>32725450
Eventually a lot of them are, yes. It counts towards promotion points.

>>32725383

His entire chain of command needs to be garbage all the way through for this to happen. Usually if a junior O is being a real piece of shit it isn't hard to find a more senior O to crush their career. Being huge douchebags and committing career suicide is how shitty LTs prevent themselves from becoming shitty Captains.

>>32725515
We don't want shitty Captains. Those ones can really get guys killed.

>>32725293
Why would a non commissioned officer want to do that?
If a nco wanted to give a fuck you and think he's receiving bad command he'd just follow orders to the letter. You must not of worked many jobs if you haven't seen people do this sort of thing before. I was doing what the boss told me and something goes wrong, boss gave those orders assuming it doesn't violate anything important but was just a bad move it can look bad on him but real accountability goes to whoever is in charge.

>ITT: people who have no concept of chain of command

A 2nd Lt or even a Lt's billet will not be to give a e7 or above orders. The e7 or above still has to respect him, and salute him, and call him Sir. At best the Lt's would be relaying orders from an 03 or higher, not giving them.

Yes, I've seen e7's tear a 2nd Lt a new asshole, but they do it behind closed doors. I've had a Gunny tell everyone e6 and below to get out of the building just for that purpose, and you could hear the assripping from the smoke pit outside 50 feet away.

>>32725367
this, all the good officers I've dealt with knew to listen to their SNCOs whenever they gave them advice.

Ultimately, they're there to advise and help him make a decision

>>32727061
A silent high five.

>>32726936
PSGs are generally E7 you nitwit.

LT tells PSG to get the platoon ready to move, PSG then goes and does that.

>>32727146
>Army

Take everything related to your shit and drop it down a rank, you lost in the sauce boot.

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>>32725293
I recon that you are either about to become a junior officer or some reserve stuff, so there are a few things to keep in mind.
>don't tell them how to do their job
they know how to do it, your job is telling him what to do and when
>listen to them when they say your order is shit
think a moment about it and if he's right you'll have to admit it otherwise they will start to shit on you. If you were right and he's wrong because he doesn't know the whole case send him back to work
and some other stuff I'm too lazy to type
Remember they will always be better at the technical work, but your training should make you the better leader

>>32725450
Most over E6 are. For E8 it's mandatory.

It's generally not as hard as it sounds either, you get a ton of credits rising through the ranks and becoming an NCO and doing courses and there are degrees set up with the military college system to take advantage of that

>>32725435
>>32725470

There is always a dire need for good SNCO's. The pay system should reflect this better.
That said there are plenty of cases where a junior NCO would make a great officer. Def. make OCS a more accessible option for NCO's with career ambitions.
As for Direct or Battlefield commisions, Battlefield commissioning should be done in times of war, esp. within elite units where training times are long.
For example SF would probably be better served commissioning from within during a major war than waiting for officers to go through the pipeline

>>32727433
There's a reason SF only takes O3s, even team guys that commission have to spend some time in the big army before they'll take them back.

>>32725293

>"DROP AND GIVE ME 20 SERGEANT!"
"...uh no"

>>32727433

>There is always a dire need for good SNCO's. The pay system should reflect this better.

Except SNCOs don't get out due to pay reasons. If you're at 12+ years and making decent money as a SNCO, you're not quitting for more money.

There's not really a retention issue at that level. The issue is keeping good junior enlisted long enough to get them to that level.

>>32727433

It's generally a bad idea to promote a good NCO out of their post. If you are good at the job you should keep doing that job. The only reason for field promotions is to fill a vital vacancy that cannot stay empty, it's a emergency measure that should not be used routinely.

I'm not, generally, in favor of pulling promising young NCOs and sending them to OCS. They should have the option but need to know that there's nothing wrong with staying an NCO. It's already hard to keep enough people in the pipeline.

On the bright side a large part of officer training involves understanding that NCOs are a vital resource and source of experienced advice, and should be respected.

>>32727286
>should
wont

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>>32727751
don't scare OP with the cruel reality

>>32727146
Depends on your branch. A E-7 as a platoon sergeant would be pretty unusual in the Marines. Usually that's a E-5 or E-6.

>>32727649
>It's generally a bad idea to promote a good NCO out of their post. If you are good at the job you should keep doing that job.

It is an absolutely unspeakable thing to have a guy you fully trust around.

It just doesn't happen that often. Well what I've heard.

>>32725341
This.

>>32725319
But mostly this.

I actually witnessed this go down first hand

>Former enlisted infantryman turned intel butter bar through Green to Gold
>Former Cav scout turned intel SNCO
>SNCO tells 2LT from other shift that he had to do something or other or keep his team longer after shift change for some reason
>2LT tells SNCO that he's an officer, SNCO needs to go to attention if he's going to address him, and to fuck off
>Starts shit flinging back and forth
>Nothing ever comes of it because "battle captain" and lite Col know 2LT was in the right technically, but SNCO was head of one of the teams on the shift that did the most work

>>32725435
SNCOs have an "unofficial" civilian education requirement.

At least when I got out in 2012. Most of the younger NCOs were taking online college classes at least because they weren't making E6 when they were competing with other guys at the board with college credits.

>>32728047
Oh yeah, if I wasn't clear, in the original exchange the SNCO was kind of a dick and condescending to the 2LT. The 2LT wasn't just butt hurt out of nowhere.

>>32728047
So, there is a communist mentality there.

The Us (the poor low ranks) vs Them (the white privileged officers) mentality.

>>32728047
>Nothing ever comes of it because "battle captain" and lite Col know 2LT was in the right technically, but SNCO was head of one of the teams on the shift that did the most work

About 95% and then some of the cases and how they usually end.

However don't take it to a level of pissing contest. That won't end well.

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>>32728111
At the lower echelons like that, team level stuff, kinda.

>>32728105
>>32728111
>don't take it to a level of pissing contest. That won't end well.

But then I guess you guys won't take it no matter what.

>>32728111

Mostly it's because the SNCO in question was acting 1SG for a long time before we deployed so he was used to being the boss.

In that situation he was pretty disrespectful of the 2LT, but in general he was a good SNCO.

It kind of put the 2LT in between a rock and a hard place, he either bitched out and looked like a bitch losing all authority and credibility, or he asserted his rank and authority and looked like a dick.

>>32728140

It ended pretty quickly and didn't come up again after that. The only other time something happened was actually the opposite

>High stress production tempo
>Get new team leaders Capt and 1LT who spent most of deployment in Qatar
>Sgt from other team from our shift ends up as our team Sgt due to some deployment shuffling
>Capt says something to Sgt one day at work that the Sgt took as disrespect
>Sgt tells Capt to go fuck himself because we've been doing the work for almost a year at this point and he's the FNG

>>32725293
Can a team lead tell a VP "fuck you" in the civilian world?

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>>32725293
Would a junior officer seriously order this guy around?

How does stuff work between different branches.

A seaman from the navy seal vs a LT from the regular forces.

The fact one is from an elite force, makes their rank superior in any way or not?

>>32728238
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in that situation I don't think the LT has any say over the seaman, right? Unless he was specifically placed under his command?

In any case, I'd say some common sense and mutual respect should dictate the interaction.

>>32728211

An LT is the equivalent of a fresh-out-of-college project manager who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing, not a VP. A team lead could absolutely tell them to fuck off if they're being retarded.

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So if you're going into the Army or Muhreens as a butterbar, how do you end up not becoming "that one useless faggot"?

Don't order around SNCOs like you're a 4 star general? Listen to people who've been there longer than you?

Being a butterbar sounds horrifying, since you're put in a position of modest authority over people who might have years more experience than you have.

>>32728238
There's a lot of unspoken rules in the military, most of the time people will respect those who have done more while maintaining customs and courtesies.

Its why boots and bootenants always get fucked with, takes them a while to figure this out.

Not really sure if on topic but I can't really stress how fucking important an experienced and competent NCO Corps is in a Military, it always been like that throughout history.

I saw this for myself when working with middle eastern militaries, most have shitty NCOs so they barely get anything done.

>>32727535
Hazeing.

>>32728238
>The fact one is from an elite force, makes their rank superior in any way or not?

No.

It's probably rare that they would interact. If by "regular forces" you mean non SOF Army.

>>32728270
Commissions are granted by Congress. Enlisted from any branch are obligated to follow lawful orders from any commissioned officer of any branch.


>>32728292
>Don't order around SNCOs like you're a 4 star general? Listen to people who've been there longer than you?

Nailed it.

>>32728321
>Enlisted from any branch are obligated to follow lawful orders from any commissioned officer of any branch.


Is this something that happens regularly? Seems more like an extreme exception to the usual order of business. Also, I could not find any info about this about my country's armed forces.

>>32728321
>It's probably rare that they would interact. If by "regular forces" you mean non SOF Army.

If the movie Blackhawk Down is accurate the Delta forces guys interacted with the Marines corps.

If by any chance one guy from the Marine forces with a superior rank gave an order to the delta forces guys, is the delta force guy obligated to obey it or no?

>>32728378
>>32728377

>Enlisted from any branch are obligated to follow lawful orders from any commissioned officer of any branch.

Sorry I didn't see you replied to this already.

>>32727459
Lol. I saw lts that were "sf"

Just like the supply sergeant and clerk that were "sf"

Just because you're attached to sf bro, doesn't make you sf.
O2 (p) is where you decide to go sf. I'm not actually sure if you're promoted while in selection or after you've failed/succeeded.

>>32728378
>If the movie Blackhawk Down is accurate the Delta forces guys interacted with the Marines corps.

Certainly. There's a chance you could interact with SOF or SOF support people. I did. But I worked intel.

As intel I also interacted with commissioned officers exponentially more often in a work capacity and more casually than junior enlisted in pretty much any other MOS. I also worked with Navy and Air Force officers.

>>32728377
>Seems more like an extreme exception to the usual order of business.

How is it an extreme exception? The authority of the commissioned officer doesn't come from the specific branch they are in, but the United States Congress. Enlisted are obligated by the Uniform Code of Military Justice to follow lawful orders of commissioned officers.

>>32728439
>Enlisted are obligated by the Uniform Code of Military Justice to follow lawful orders of commissioned officers.

Well sure, but normally they'd nearly always be getting orders from an officer from their own branch, right? Seems sort of strange to organize the armed forces in such a way that people would regularly be getting orders from other branches' officers.

>>32728211
Depends how valuable the team lead is. One of mine does that on a weekly basis almost.

>>32728321
>O2 fag
The lt does not have command authority. So, yes, enlisted is required to follow routine lawful orders.

But I can go over to another plt/company, let alone branch I'm not in, and start telling them what to do.

Scenario, I was in charge of security at this strike cell. Everyone in the strike cell was flag staff, mostly majors up to general grade. In the event of a battle, even as an O1 the general would have to follow my orders as the"incident commander". My soldiers were not authorized to follow orders from Amy of those officers other than me. Command authority comes from position, not rank. The same way a SSG can be acting pl in a platoon.

>>32728431

you promote when you hit 3 years time in service/1.5 time in grade (2/4 in other branches). O-2/3 promotion is based on not getting caught committing a felony/allowing one to happen, and not dying too soon before your promotion date.

source: O-3 (s) USAF flyer. all i've done the past 3.5 years is flight training. i have one OPR, and i'm a month out from Captain.

>>32728477
Not him...

But even guys who are in your own branch can't give you an order. If they aren't in your chain of command they can either inform military police, or contact your chain of command.

Even in a line company a squad leader from another platoon is very limited in what they can do. They have to inform your squad leader, youre not there's to command.

>>32728477
>Well sure, but normally they'd nearly always be getting orders from an officer from their own branch, right?

Yes.


>Seems sort of strange to organize the armed forces in such a way that people would regularly be getting orders from other branches' officers.

They aren't "organized" in such a manner that a Navy O3 would be routinely commanding an Army company. However if one were to work with another branch it wouldn't be crazy for an enlisted soldier/sailor etc. to follow the lawful orders of a commissioned officer from another branch.

>>32728488
>The lt does not have command authority.

I never said they did.

One can have authority without rank.

> So, yes, enlisted is required to follow routine lawful orders.

Which is exactly what I stated.

>Command authority comes from position, not rank.

Please point out where I've said the opposite of this. Someone asked, I stated that the authority to commission an officer comes not from their specific branch, but from Congress. And as part of UCMJ one is obligated to follow the lawful orders of commissioned officers regardless of branch.

You don't get to tell an O4 to fuck off just because he's a Muuhhrrreeeen and you're in the Air Force.

>>32728517
>squad leader

I'm talking specifically commissioned officers, not TL, SL, PSG or what have you.

>>32728431
What are you on about? Detachment commanders need to be captains, group supply is airborne and not tabbed. Former team guys that are qualified can come back to group and work support until they pick up O3, but that's the exception.

>>32728540
Same thing applies with officers if not in your chain of command. They'll never order you to do anything other than usually correct you if you're fucking up, such as correct your uniform or something. Then it's in your interest to listen because if they contact your command an officer's complaint carries more weight and looking at more discipline.

>>32728544
I think he's railing against SF support people who say they "were SF". IIRC that's why the groups dropped Green Berets for support guys in the 90's. Too many support people were walking around post and town in uniform claiming to be SF.

Also ODA XOs used to be 1LT.

>>32728583
Article 91—Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, NCO, or PO

“Any warrant officer or enlisted member who—

(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;

(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or

(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation

“Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

>>32728221

realistically? no. as a 2nd Lt i pretended Chiefs didn't exist.

but could they? yeah.

>>32728292

yeah. listen to the SNCO, but remember that you're still the boss. there's the thin line between being there for your guys and being their buddy. at the end of the day you're an officer, they're not. you shouldn't spend the entire weekend doing kegstands with them, but you should have an idea of their family, etc. set standards, use your NCOs/SNCOs to enforce standards, and don't give yourself a pass if you don't meet the standard (e.g. "everybody has to be 15 minutes early to formation" and you roll in twenty minutes late routinely).

>>32728583

this. i was at NAS Pensacola as a butterbar. it was about fifty-fifty if i got saluted as a 2Lt by the Navy/Marine junior enlisted. to be honest i could give less than two fucks if a E-2 Marine Private fails to give some random AF O-1 the proper greeting of the day/salute. hell i'd go out of my way to not walk by the enlisted so i didn't spend my time returning salutes. but mainly because i don't want to have to run the risk of some random Marine or Navy NCO "helping" me enforce customs and courtesies, i'd just politely say "i'm an officer". usually that was it and i'd be done.

and if you're wondering why i was walking around there... it was usually that i needed shampoo or soap or something from the NEX and i just got off work.

>>32728629
OK. You can quote regulations. Not sure why you asked then. I thought you were interested in what happens in the real world.

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Something that might be interesting about the Netherlands armed forces upper command structure;

4 branches, each with a flag officer in charge of the entire branch
>Navy
>Army
>Airforce
>Gendarmerie


The navy, army and airforce flag officers are all directly under the command of the supreme commander of the armed forces, who in turn answers to the minister of Defence. The commander of the gendarmerie answers directly to the minister of Defence, since they are responsible for all policing tasks regarding the rest of the armed forces. This way there is always a democratically elected person who can exert control over the entirety of the Dutch armed forces by means of the gendarmerie.

>>32728654
>I thought you were interested in what happens in the real world.
I know what happens in the real world shit dick.

>>32728192
>>32728047

are me.

To the general question of

>Are uniformed enlisted personnel obligated to follow the lawful orders of a commissioned officer regardless of branch?

The answer according to UCMJ is

>Yes.

>>32728682
I don't think you do tho.

>>32728637
>2LT
>NAS Pensacola
I loved you fucks down there, there is a cool 2LT that is the front desk over at MATSG-23 building.

>>32728690
>I don't think you do tho.
And I don't think you were ever in. And if you were you never interacted with officers from other branches.

I was in, and I interacted with officers from other branches.

I can also read the UCMJ.

And nowhere have I stated that a Navy O2 is going to strut into an Army company area and start throwing out orders. I stated that enlisted personnel are obligated by UCMJ to follow the lawful orders of commissioned officers, regardless of branch.

I also posted the specific articles of the UCMJ covering this topic.

So unless you can post a UCMJ article or any branch regulation saying enlisted can tell the commissioned of other branches to shove their lawful orders up their ass, you can kindly fuck off.

>>32728703

see i was down there for AF flight school. my interaction with everyone else was:
-O-club flip cup vs the Navy
-"dude that girl's kinda hot... oh shit she's a Navy E-3" downtown at Syphilis Quarter/Crabs on PB
-doing power cleans at the ghetto gym with angry Marines who washed out of SOI
-"goddamnit the Blues are flying today, we gotta wrap this flight up and go home or divert to Eglin"
-dodging salutes trying to make it to the NEX

i forget what that giant building was but we had to enter once and hear the senior enlisted advisor. some dude in a sailor suit at that front desk saluted me inside and i was level 1000 WTF-ing.

>>32728729
I was, and I did.

>Regulations again, let's beat this dead horse

Unless you're attached to them, either their unit or part of training. You are still expected to salute other branches officers and shit. Other than that no random officer is going to order you to do shit.

If they do you say "My (insert officer rank/billet) already has me doing this, sorry, Sir". I don't think you were in, just have a PDF of the UCMJ you study.

>>32725293
Most junior officers have the good sense to defer to the judgement of senior NCOs, thought they technically outrank them.

>>32728665
>Gendarmerie
implies to a civilian forces.
>This way there is always a democratically elected person who can exert control over the entirety of the Dutch armed forces by means of the gendarmerie.

Damn. Are you happy with this?

>>32728799
>Other than that no random officer is going to order you to do shit.

So is it that you choose not to read or that you can't understand the posts you're replying to?

>I don't think you were in

You can think what you want homie. Apparently you can't even fuckin read so I don't know how you managed to do well enough on the ASVAB to even get in.

>>32728540
I was clarifying what you said for the other anon. You weren't wrong but the way it read really needed further explanation of command authority.

>>32728823
Dutch gendarmerie has both police duties for civillians and exclusive police duties for the armed forces.

>Damn. Are you happy with this?

Well, desu, its more of a formal gesture. The whole nation operates under a sense of conformity to common sense. The minister couldn't do that much if the whole army wanted to play the coup game, gendarmerie would be tremendously outnumbered.

>>32728787
>goddamnit the blues are flying today, we gotta wrap this flight up and go home or divert to eglin
lel
>angry Marines who washed out of SOI
As a marine, seeing alot of angry marines because they didn't get their job is always the greatest shit, unless they're in your CoC kek
>Syphillis Quarter/Crabs
Every god damn day, we had ORM briefs telling us not to go to Bravo Barracks because it was the most STD infested barracks in the entire base.
>saluted me inside
I think I've seen this once, in front of a Naval Chief, many keks were had.
Down there, when it came to saluting, it was always stupid
>USAF enlisted saluting me because I have PFC chevrons on my collars
>idiots in PT clothes saluting during colors
>Marines saluting Navy enlisted (I didn't) because they had shiny shit on their collars
>Marines/Navy not saluting USAF officers because their insignias were on collars
I had one motherfucker ask me if they should salute Warrant Officers

Now I'm stuck in NAS Oceana, where I haven't seen an officer for 2 months, then this friday I've seen 15 captains running out of the CNATTU building, and every fucking enlisted marine doing about-face and getting the fuck out of there

>>32728836
I'd resort to ad hominem if I were you also, the only argument you have.

>>32728903
>I'd resort to ad hominem if I were you also

So what exactly do you disagree with then?

1. Enlisted are obligated by UCMJ to follow the lawful orders of a commissioned officer regardless of branch.

2. An officer from one branch isn't going to walk into a unit from another branch and start throwing out orders like they run the place.

I've written both of these things multiple times in this thread in response to the question of someone who is not from the US asking if an enlisted member of one branch is obligated to follow the lawful orders of a commissioned officer even if they aren't from the same branch.

Either you're willfully ignoring what I'm actually typing or you can't read. Which is it?

>>32728887

someone explained it to me later. he was standing watch or something. they treated the building like a ship and he had his cover on so it was legit, but being AF i just chalked it up under my "the Navy is fucking weird" counter. which, if you have to ask, rolled over like an old odometer.

i had a Navy warrant officer salute me once as i was walking out to my car in the morning. i had literally no idea what rank he was.

>Marines/Navy not saluting USAF officers because their insignias were on collars
yup. happened a lot. and yeah... the worst part about that for you guys is that the dudes fresh out of OTS had pin-on rank on their ABUs and you can't see that ever. that and how the Marine flyers had rank on the other side of their cover from the AF and didn't have shoulder rank, just a teeny tiny little "LT COL USMC" on the second row of their nametag so that your 2nd Lt soul knows you done fucked up by not saluting some old fucker who's spent more time killing dudes in jets than you've been alive.

>>32727161
>adjusting my knowledge on rank/position structure for a significantly smaller and less useful branch

Fuck off narcissist

>>32728975
Oh shit, I forgot about Post/Firewatch.
Marines and Navy, haven't seen Air Force do it, but Post is like a security guard.
As soon as they recognize an officer, it's pop to attention and say (idk if you remenber it)
"Good morning sir, [rank][name] reports [ building] all secure, all special and general orders are in effect, nothing new or unusual to report, good morning sir!"
This also applies to the NCOIC or any NCOs afaik, since some were pissed even though they went inside to talk to the NCOIC

I've seen a USN Chief walk in the first day I was on post, saw an anchor on the collar and said "what the fuck", luckily he said to drop the salute and walked away. Since then I've learned the ranks of USN/AF, which is quite fun as nobody ever greets the USAF.
>me: good morning master sergeant! (USAF)
>every marine/sailor in the building looking around
>MSgt: hey whats up
>every marine/sailor confused
>giving me looks for being a smartass

past that, Navy treats it like a ship, Marines treat it like the mess hall.

>WO saluting
Considering they're not officers, but enlisted who gained officer from sheer experience, probably.
It could probably be a junior WO who just got promoted or some shit.

Oh yes, another thing about USAF insignias on the colours, are they usually black? I've only ever seen a USAF Captain, and he had black insignias on his collars. In the USMC black insignias = field, which means don't salute (sniper bait)

>LT COL USMC
Can't speak on this since I've yet to see a LT COL, but alot of insignias are pretty fucked
For every Marine, if they have "shiny shit" on their collars, pop a salute, simple. Sometimes they don't reflect, then you got Marines doing some lightning fast salutes screaming out "OH SHIT" mentally
Also, when you see marines in groups, there is always one guy that, from a kilometer away says "hey guys, officer in front, get ready", don't know if you ever noticed

>>32729047
>I've had a Gunny tell everyone e6 and below to get out of the building just for that purpose
That was in my original post

>Adjusting rank

Does Army have Gunnery Sergeants? I didn't adjust anything. You're just a dumbass who couldn't reading comprehension.

That famous superior Army intellect.

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>experienced Master Sergeant
Unless they are SOF, there is no such thing. The only enlisted who stick around in conventional military long enough to end up in the senior enlisted ranks were screwballs with no chance of going anywhere else.

They become senior enlisted because its skate as fuck

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>>32725319
>those higher-ranked sergeants know higher-ranked officers
So you have to rely on another male to project anything resembling power? Whereas a male officer can simply project it on his own?

That's fucking embarassing.

That's as pathetic as a wife pretending she holds her husbands rank or influence. What you said literally makes SNCOs on par with female dependents.

>>32729089

black = silver on shinies, brownish = gold.

yeah nobody stood watch or anything for the BOQ. we just had the base fire department show up when some idiot burned his food because he was boiling hot dogs (wtf) and fell asleep (wtf). everybody hated him because he played loud, terrible EDM at midnight when we had flights/tests the next day.

we had CQ at OTS, but after that we were on the "you're an adult" thing. there's duty cell phones when you're a commander or something. i don't think there's a single enlisted in my current squadron's org chart who actually belongs to us vs is in the base Operational Support Squadron and just works with us.

What if one guy got the "Medal of Honor". Does it make his hank better than other guys of the same rank as him.

>>32725293
This
>>32725319

However if the young officer isn't a retarded cunt, keeps himself polite and gives reasonable order (how they should be anyway) then the sergeant is most likely going to do what he's ordered and answer in kind

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>>32729180
No, just makes his income tax lower. He doesn't have any higher level of command.

What gives you command is a special class of orders that designate an officer as "being in command" of a given organization. And that, my friend, does make you better than your peers if they have no been placed in command of an organization higher than your own.

>>32729198
So the enlisted has to rely on someone else to have any influence? Isn't that like a chick getting her boyfriend to deal with some other chick?

>>32729156
Thanks for that

>idiot burned his hot dogs and fell asleep
oh lel
Reminds me, during rack checks Marines get bored as fuck, so naturally we do stupid shit.
>marine bought a barrel of pickles
>during rack checks, went to every fucking room offering pickles "i leave tomorrow, help me eat them all"
>next week
>ORM brief and why giving away pickles was considered hazing

some idiot failed room inspections in front of my face, he went inside the last minute, farted then walked out, MSgt walked in 15 seconds after, said it smelled like shit, said he failed lmao

Another marine failed room inspections because that morning, he told his roommate not to use the bathroom, so the new fucker decided to piss in the toilet, became the barracks meme for a few weeks

also this bullshit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuaLlcyta4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHb9VdlIKxs
Those were also considered hazing, what the shit.

>>32729223
No, it's like calling the police when someone is being drunk, since you can't really stop them.
The officer who is issueing retarded orders in question will probably get his ass chewed out by someone of high rank.

>>32729211
>No, just makes his income tax lower. He doesn't have any higher level of command.

So, medals are just fucking useless aren't they?

>>32729223
that's how it is everywhere
in a company if you insult some random secretary and it turns out she's good friends/same batch/sucks the cock of a department chief then said chief is gonna fuck you up
even if said secretary has no such relations if she's known to be competent and is somewhat well liked in the office while you are a new employee then you are still gonna get chewed

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>>32729246
Yes.

Good for manipulating the lower ranks (literally a gold sticker) but besides that irrelevant. This is why the enlisted get the most medals. What's most important is what you commanded in your past and the success of those organizations.

Command > all else

In military life and every other form of lifestyle. Doesn't matter if you are a terrorist, a gang member, a police officer, a militia leader, a cartel member, etc. Command is what you are judged on.

>>32729262
>for some reason the last part wasn't posted so cont

still gonna get chewed even if you are being hired as an engineer/any job that needs a high amount of capacitation and thus in papers you are more valuable than the secretary, though in practice the secretary may be more important to the company for whatever reasons including experience and know how, and thus back to the part of being competent vs being new and acting badly

>>32725293
Telling an officer no matter how green "FUCK YOU" is exceptionally rude and unbecoming of an experienced NCO. They are young and do not know any better.

Our job is to assist these young officers to not fuck up and get everybody killed and if they happen to phrase something that's retarded in the form of an order, It's your duty to explain to them the why and give him a better option, and if he's stubborn about it you rip him limb from limb.

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>>32729223
DADDY DADDY
Is it true that enlisted personnel immediately consider their commanders to be paternal figures?

Is it true that many enlisted males have actually cried in front of a commander to gain their favor?

>>32729246
>I accomplished [x]
It's pretty much proof saying you did X Y Z, but nothing past that besides getting honourable mentions

>yea bro, totally saved three marines who were getting fucked with and i was a crazy motherfucker too
>you're lying you fuck
>heres my medal to prove it, and heres my video from 2012 with the president of the US putting it around my neck
literally it

Also, on the topic of Officer vs Enlisted
Enlisted are the workforce, Officers are supervisors or paper pushers, they give or pass on the order of the generals and make sure everyone is working.
That's why they can order around Enlisted, even if higher rank, but because the SNCOs know how shit works, they would give advise.

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Why the fuck would anyone end up senior enlisted on purpose?

The SOF guys make sense since they actually do something of substance when they are E-9s, but that's completely unlike the rest of the military. The rest are just existing for the sake of existing.

Who would put themselves in this situation?

>>32729317
>SNCOs know how shit works
in theory. Many MOSs have SNCOs that haven't done their relevant jobs in over a decade. The guy who had Job #5768798 but spent 99% of his time as an Honor Guard will end up a SNCO that knows fuck all.

And there are much more of those SNCOs than competent ones.

>>32729325
For doctors and stuff it usually results in a pretty stress free and easy life in a military run hospital as a colonel or major or something.

>>32729131
>missing the point

It'll go like this.
>2LT pulls rank on 1SG
>1SG tells him to fuck off
>2LT tries to reprimand (in writing) or go to higher (usually CO which is a CPT)
>CO says fuck off and to never talk to 1SG like that again
>gets lowest rating in counseling
>goes nowhere

Man to man theyll tell you to your face to fuck off if you're being retarded. If you try to pull the pussy "paperwork in silence" deal then more than likely some senior officer will have their back and itll blow up in your face.

>>32729364
never mind, I'm retarded.

Some of the SNCO's just have fun, other times it's just a form of welfare with a pecking order. Really just depends on how many are affirmative action.

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>>32729384
Even better that the 1sg is a 40 year old man
while the 2LT is a 20 year old man

And that 40 year old man has to jump through hoops and gain the favor of another 30 year old man (a Lieutenant Colonel)

Kind of sad for that 40 year old man

>>32729393
>just have fun
Only SOF which is like .00000001% of the military
>form of welfare
That's the rest

>>32729325
>Be doing the job for your entire adult life
>Have a pretty good standard of living
>Small pension for the rest of your life after 20 years service, you've already been in 12 or more
>Getting out would require you to uproot yourself and drastically change your lifestyle

Gee I wonder why

I love this scene. High-ranking NCO dominates a young Lt for severe lack of trigger discipline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu51rszgotI

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>>32729460
>>Getting out would require you to uproot yourself and drastically change your lifestyle
Most enlisted do that. What's your point?

>>32729475
>Old guy having yell at a kid
Not really inspiring. If that old guy was a Colonel, he wouldn't even have to raise his voice. He'd just give the kid a look.

>>32729475
Sad that you have to live via a TV show, but in the modern military if a SNCO did that he'd be destroyed.

>>32729516

The show is based on actual events.

Why are new officers always considered dickheads who think they are above people ranked lower but have more experience? Is it a joke or is it reality?

>>32729568
Go check out the 2LT Land Nav memes, it's like a private who has officer status giving the orders to someone higher rank

>>32729516

If you'd spent any time in the military you'd know that LTs getting shit on is fairly common.

The best is when a young captain sinkholes an LT's career even though they didn't really deserve it. Even though O-3s are at the rater level for their O-1/O-2 subordinates, since they're only a few years apart in TIS the more senior officer sometimes sees the juniors as future competition.

Watching officers eat their young is a hilarious popcorn moment for enlisted. I'd rather watch backstabby officers than Game of Thrones any day.

>>32729568
Why do people on a Mongolian anal hair braiding website make generalizations?

Some do, plenty don't.

>>32725293
In general, no.
In practice yes.

If the officer isn't in the Sergeant's chain of command he can respectfully ignore the officer and follow his chain of command. Especially if it is a SGM.

>>32725293
I've seen 1st sergeants order LT's around all the time. Usually goes something like

>Go get that shit done....sir

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>>32729568
Hey man, you put yourself under them. You chose to be enlisted, no need to be upset about your own choices.

>>32725383
The LT can do that in the short term. Long term the LT will be hammed from above. That is unless the LT is within his limits and the SGT is wrong.

>>32729640
>1SG
Shame the !SG has to wait until his late 30s to get to that position where he can tell a 22 year old 2LT to do something.

Kind of an embarrassing use of his time.

>>32729591
>Watching officers eat their young is a hilarious popcorn moment for enlisted

Is this across all branches? Commissioned in May, and was stashed at the college/NROTC unit I commissioned from for 7 months. The LTs and marine Capt were nothing but helpful, gave me plenty of advice, told me what to do/not to do, etc.

I could never imagine them throwing an O-1 under the bus, they just weren't that kind of people.

How common is backstabbing bullshit in the aviation community?

>>32729676
As MSgt told me, if you're want to get treated fairly, don't do stupid shit, and if you do, do stupid shit, then make sure you can get away with it.

If you're being a retard, expect to get fucked up, else things go great.

>>32729425
>30yo O5s
kys

>>32729676
Golden rule etc.

>>32729695

It's really community dependant. But fighter dudes tend to treat bros who are bros well. If you're an ass and you stuck in the jet, you'll get eaten alive though.

>>32729867
Define "bro".

>>32729948
Any male with self confidence is called a "bro" by millennial. What an effeminate generation.

>>32729948
It's an overall attitude. It'll get beaten into you. Know your place as a thinking wingman, don't dime out lead, strive to answer every question with "yes" or "no", and if you can't, "IAW lead's brief/3-1", and every radio call with "2". Keep the bar clean, make good corn, sing songs, steal stuff but leave a ransom note... The LPA and junior captains are the heart of a fighter squadron.

>>32730001
I don't know half of that lingo man, I'm just a civvie looking for clarification. But I think I get the jist of it.

>>32728292
>Listen to people who've been there longer than you?

Precisely this.

>Being a butterbar sounds horrifying, since you're put in a position of modest authority over people who might have years more experience than you have.

It is, but if you're not a complete shithead the platoon will do everything in their power to help you out. A modest butterbar willing to learn and genuinely concerned about grunt welfare is a treasured commodity.

Read, One Bullet Away, by Nate Fick. It basically covers everything you're interested in and then some. Dude was blessed with a series of godly SNCOs then cursed with some completely retarded COs

>>32728238
You treat an officer from another branch as you would an officer from your own. Same with NCO's.

>>32725293
Best military stories come from my dad, he out ranked everyone and didn't know a damn thing about soldiering and his subordinate were terrified to tell him anything he was doing wrong.

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>>32728047
>Infantry
>Cav scout

who could have known they'd want to bicker with each other

how could anyone have foreseen this

As a warrant officer in the Australian regular army, E7, lieutenants knock on my door with trepidation.
In the field, I say things like "perhaps that is not the optimal solution…" and "may I suggest?" I am usually listened to. Being army for longer than they have been alive helps.

There is a knack to being respectfully instructive, instructing junior officers without undermining thier authority and confidence.

>>32731194
>Sarn't...I think I should be giving orders in front of the troops
>...
>Yes Sir

>>32725293
our senior told a JO to fuck off once. Best day ever.

>>32731633
>40 year old who wasted his life tells a 23 year old to shut up
>best day ever

Sounds like your career was uneventful as fuck. How did that happen?

>>32725478
I always though that if you had college and joined the military, that's how you started off as an officer? If you get a degree, or two while you're an NCO, why can't you become a officer? Especially if you have many years of experience.

>>32732460

sometimes you're too old to commission at that point. sometimes you don't want to commission (i know a SSgt with her master's in accounting and no desire to get her commission). sometimes you go to OCS/OTS and get your commission.

OCS with the Army or Muhreens?

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>>32732544
>woman has no desire to perform
Its a woman, its not supposed to be motivated. What's your point? If people willingly trip themselves that's on them.

>>32725293
I like to sarcastically prove them wrong which winds up being more humiliating in the long run so its a win win.

>>32732577

from reports, she's a good air traffic controller (and she's also pretty hot). if she wants to stay ATC instead of becoming an officer, there's no reason to push her that direction. but the Captain and i just wanted her to be informed about her decision.

>be me (E-3)
>doing something
>hear voice from behind me say it can't be done
>I get it done
>in excitement raise middle finger and make some explanation of fuck you non believers
>it was a major standing behind me

Fuck I love being in the guard

>>32728823
You're implying their military isn't just for show.

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>>32728221
Well I would have the qualifications of not being a beta faggot just by listening to his experience related to the task before the planning of an operation, but he is not in my retinue.

>>32729656
It's called experience. You wouldn't understand.

>>32731680
>In the military still at 40
If you don't get out and continue with your life by 38 then you are an idiot.

Most SNCO's are about 30.

No one gives a shit what you think or what you have to say until you are an E6/O3+ and that is just a fact.

>>32732661
>>hear voice from behind me say it can't be done
>>I get it done
what were you doing, anon?

>>32735069
Pulling a train on the battalion mascot, a pig.

>>32729279
>This is why the enlisted get the most medals.

Have you not deployed?

Because when I went to Iraq the SNCOs and Os were bending over backwards to suck each others dicks with some Bronze Stars while NCOs and junior enlisted got a cookie.

>>32729325
>The rest are just existing for the sake of existing.

Well except for the 1SGs and Command Sergeants Major that are the top shirt for their units.

>>32725435
NCOs especially SNCOs are the literal backbone of Western Militaries, they train and guide the junior enlisted and provide junior officers with advice and guidance based on years of practical real-world experience.

>>32729091
The Army rank equivalent of Gunnery Sergeant is Sergeant First Class (SFC) they are both E-7s

>>32737305
>especially SNCOs
Not really

Watch Generation Kill, observe the difference between How Brad and LT. Fick interact vs. how Captai America and SGT. Kocher interact. Return with your findings.

>>32725367
From an Air Force perspective, there's 2 sides from which you're taught about respecting your SNCO:

On one side (the normal / majority side) you're taught to trust your SNCO, don't go making big changes at your first posting, don't overstep your boundary, seek advice from your SNCO, work with them, etc.

On the other side, you're also told not to let your SNCO take advantage of you, not let them boss you around, not let them get away with doing nothing / not doing their job, etc.

When you get to a new unit, you can get a little bit paranoid figuring out which side you're going to have to draw on. Sometimes there's SNCOs who don't want to be in any more, but are still on contract. I've never had to deal with one, but I've seen them and by all accounts they're not easy to deal with.

>>32725435
Because NCOs are dumb as fuck and have no brain at all. That's why they are so limited.

>>32737342
That doesn't really apply to the initial conversation, but OK. The point was in the Marines e7's are no longer platoon Sgts. or take orders from 2nd lts. Their the company gunny, or cruise controlling an S-shop.