Leopard?!

You see, Franz, to beat the Russian, you must first be the Russian.

>>32719940

Looks like Turks or ISIS blew them at a rallying point of dead armor or they ran into a field of IEDs.

>>32719940

LOL is the front end of that tank missing?

>>32720280

>hull ammo storage is a good idea guys

>>32719940
In retrospect, this makes Abrams the best tank for arabs, since it doesn't carry much hull ammunition to brew up when the idiots expose the side hull.

>>32720280

Front left hull is where most of the ammo is stowed.

You can see a Merkava 2 in Lebanon with the exact same hull damage, just in the rear right where it has its ammo.

It's in a crater, so it appears whatever happened, happened right there. I can't see anything pointing to an airstrike. Perhaps an internal demo charge or it ran over an IED.

>>32720344

I wouldn't even bother rolling around with ammo in the hull of a Leopard 2, especially when you're just shooting at IS and you don't need a heap of stowed armor kills for a Fulda Gap defensive battle.

The amount in the turret is more than enough for shooting buildings.

>>32719940
hilariously ironic that the t-90 variants of all things in syria have survived relatively unscathed; yeah I know a few were penetrated (probably) but we dont even know if any crew died with arguments on both sides

meanwhile abrams and leopards are cooking off left and right (yeah shitty crews and monkey models sometimes) but its still funny

challenger 2 the only serious remaining contender for 'deployed and not btfo' I think

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>>32720280
Is this real life?

>>32720393

We've only seen 2 T-90s hit in video

One cooked off; one had the gunner bail and a picture showing it looked relatively fine except for external gear gone

T-90s also have the same ammo stowage as T-72s; it just has increased frontal armor protection

Abrams that have cooked off are working as intended and the crew will be fine

CH2 is about the same as the Leo 2; a little better than the T-90, but it still has ammo in the hull

>>32720407

Welds can't handle high pressure, anon.

It's never as strong as the steel plates themselves.

>>32720421

There's a bit of a difference between "ammo in the hull" and "ammo literally in the very front of the fucking tank".

Leopard 2 has shown the idiocy of using your ammo as your frontal armor.

>>32720421
source on t-90 cooking off
not that I dont believe you, im just interested

>>32720393
>remaining contender for 'NOT deployed and not btfo'
Fixed. Bongs need to scrap Challenger 2 ASAP to not prevent embarrassing themselves after facing real ATGMs.

>>32720442
keeping it directly nestled behind the strongest armour in the tank seems reasonable design choice to me

>>32720445
deployed lots in iraq, gulf wars
it just depends on if you think ISIS is considerable more of a threat than either

>>32719940
oh goodie, OP has posted these photo's again.
Thanks OP for the delightful share.
forever in your debt.

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>>32720442

Well yeah, but the Leo 2 is better than the T-series simply because it's not the entire center of the tank. It's off to the left, so if you're aiming at the center of the tank (which you do), you probably won't hit it.

>>32720444

There's actually been 2 cooked off; this is one from an AT-5 hit in the side

>inb4 blurry

Black paint and Kontact-5 are only on T-90s

>>32720442
Having your ammo all around the rondell isn't better though. Don't know if that's the case with the T-90 buy as I understood it that was the T-72d main problem, each center of mass hit would also hit ammo, and we all know what happenes then. Better to shove it in some corner of the hull like its done in Leo 2 and merkava.

Also doesn't the Leo 2 have blow out panels for the ammo in the hull?

>>32720470
>if you think ISIS is considerable more of a threat than either
Well they roll with real ATGMs (thanks Putin and Obama).

>>32720445

One was hit with a Milan or AT-5 on the gunsight, which didn't perforate

One was perforated by an RPG-29 in the lower hull - the same hit would have killed a T-90

The problem with the CH2 is the glacis cutout for the driver's hatch. Most things will perforate there.

>>32720470

>keeping it directly nestled behind the strongest armour in the tank seems reasonable design choice to me

Pictures above seem to prove otherwise. It's not "behind the strongest armor", it just means that it's the very first thing hit on almost any penetration, or if you go over any form of IED that detonates at the front of the tank. Again, see likely result of the recent events. If you HAVE to have it in your hull, you want it way back from the front, out of the way of most likely hit locations in the event of a frontal or front below impact.

>>32720488

>All impacts are a laser like straight line and produce no fragmentation, shrapnel or spall inside a tank guys!

This isn't these shitty tank games where shells seem to just hit exactly what they bump into. If something comes through the front or from below it's going to cause a lot more issues than that.

As these pictures show. Apparently it WAS a very fucking major issue.

>>32720512
I believe they have blowout pannels for the rear ammo, but not the front

>>32720520
Its not just the stuff they got from the outside, all the kornets and the older shit they got from SAA bases that defected/they overran is worse. At least in terms of ISIS.

>>32719940
Actually after a VBIED the crew abandoned the tank due to some mechanical error then they thought its a better idea to bomb the tanks before terorists figure out how to transport them and somehow reuse it

>>32720525
>One was perforated by an RPG-29 in the lower hull - the same hit would have killed a T-90

this hit was so insane, it bounced off the ground and skipped the armour
and then a huge block of composite was stuck where it 'penetrated' (injured the drivers foot)

I dont think the same penetration would have cooked off a t-90 at all, I think they are safe from rpg-29 in the frontal aspect just like a c2 is

>The problem with the CH2 is the glacis cutout for the driver's hatch. Most things will perforate there.

this is a meme, not actually true

>>32720535

We don't know what killed these Leo 2s

IED or crew sabotage are most likely considering the MRAP with its front blown off

None of the ATGM hits have shown any turret popping events; just one with the rear bustle going up. And that's because there's been no front left hull hits in the ATGM hits we've seen

Spall is usually a cone; if you hit a Leo 2 center of mass from the front or side, you won't hit the ammo; you have to aim for the ammo specifically, which you don't do by training

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1. Genius?
2. Not genius?

>>32720590
in low intensity conflicts they could not load the hull storage
I wonder if the turk roaches did, why would they bother imo

also in a real war the leopard 2 would be hulldown, so that ammo would be safe

>>32720609
>in low intensity conflicts they could not load the hull storage
And be left with 15 rounds?

>>32720656
15 MPAT rounds seems fine for insurgency work
you have machine guns too

>>32720572

I don't think there's been any info other than that the PG-29V made it through the lower hull, which is to be expected. It's only a rather thin plate of RHA protected by ERA in that instance

The ERA obviously worked to some extent by cutting down the penetration, as the after armor effects were fairly mild

>that weak spot is a meme

Not really. Whilst it's a pretty small area, it's still a weak spot around the center of the tank when aiming at it.

The CR2 does a pretty good job of putting a heap of armor on a less than optimum hull design (Chieftain linage), but it still sub-optimal; it's similar to the T-90 here, just with better lower hull armor when they throw the composite blocks on.

The hull shape you want is like the M1 or Leo 2, where the glacis is almost flat and your lower hull is where your armor cavity is.

>>32720656
Just glue more ammo to the outside. Additional protection by doubling as reactive armor, crew having to open the hatch to get it improves situational awareness since the holy Quran seems to forbid infantry support for armored vehicles. Sounds like the ideal solution for Arab tank combat to me.

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>>32720407
so looks like we now know why the smalldicked german bloods are always compensating for the frontal hull plate. thing looks fucking worthless compared to even a t-72 in thickness and

The leopard 2 is good meme is finished forever with this

>>32720695

The turret stowage is more than enough here

And when you spread it out amongst 2-3 tanks, you've got more main gun rounds than you'll use

They use DM-12 HEAT, which is fine against buildings.

>>32720703
Armoured upper glacis is reasonable for a hull-down fighting machine I think
Aesthetically the challenger hull is very ugly though, and the upper glacis is a bit stretched

the abrams and leopards upper glacis are ludicrously thin in comparison to either russian tanks or british tanks

>>32720728

I wouldn't speculate on the armor layout simply because you can't see much of anything other than a hollow wedge on the ground.

The glacis of the Leo 2A4 has never been several steel/plastic plates laminated together. Rather a hollow cavity full of many thin plates.

>>32720830
>we present you new invention in the armored warfare
>armored air

>>32720830
small dicked germanblood pls. it's pretty obvious you jews have been lying to everyone for years now. Leo2's armor scheme is antiquated trash in every respect

>>32720742

You are assuming competent western logistic in order for that to work.

However, these are Arabs, with Arab logistics, and Arab expenditure of munition on "contact".

How often do you think will those 15 rounds be expended, and resupply is not readily available because abu driving a truck was shot at, ditched the truck, and ran away. Or the truck was just blown up by an IED in the first place.

>>32720767
however, they are at 83 degrees from the vertical. That's angled enough that even APFSDS will not grip on to the surface and penetrate.

FWIW I think the best hull design belongs to either Leclerc or K2.

>>32720890

Air is actually pretty good as long as there's thin plates in front of and behind it.

The T-90 and T-72B3 use a similar layout.

>>32720936

Leo 2A4 is said to have similar armor composition to the M1A1, which is heaps of thin plates held together by bolts in an empty cavity.

You can't see anything in the picture to make any conclusion.

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>>32721054
Leclerc has literally Abrams hull.

>>32721054

Leclerc's glacis isn't that good simply because ATGMs can fuse on it. Its angle isn't steep enough.

M1 and Leo 2 will make it bounce into the turret.

You can uparmor the glacis of the Leclerc, of course, but you'll always need more weight of a similar level of protection as you need to armor more of it.

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>explosion in front hull interior
>turrets blown off

Looks like another case of monkey isis fighters not knowing how to use new fancy western tank, so they blow it up with C4 yell Allah Akbar, film it and post it online for vatniks and other /k/unts to argue about tanks

>>32721235

I believe that one was killed by Turkish airstrikes after the attacks failed, in order to deny working equipment to ISIS.

>>32721188

> Air is actually pretty good as long as there's thin plates in front of and behind it.

Ideally you want a sandwich material with high thermal expansion coefficient, so the armor can work as NERA instead of just spaced baffles.

The T-72B's glacis was still the "economical" version; made of only steel and air gaps. The Soviets gave the fanciest glacis composition to the T-80U.

>>32720438
Weld ARE stronger than the plates they get welded too.

>>32721762
Absolutely not the case for modern high tensile steel/armor steel.

Whats up with all the jews posing as vatniks

>>32721054
>however, they are at 83 degrees from the vertical. That's angled enough that even APFSDS will not grip on to the surface and penetrate.

do you have a source for this, ive seen APFSDS penetrating right on the top edge of t-62 turrets, if you can visualize the angle I mean

as in right practically through roof

also it gives the abrams terrible roof protection

>>32721916

Got an image for me to look at? My mental picture of the T-62 turret is that it's not all that sloped until the very tippy top.

Also the hardened steel used on the Abrams glacis is not the same animal as the softer cast steel on Soviet tank turrets.

>>32721916

Ricochet angle depends on rod length, construction and velocity; what the target is made out of will affect it too, but you usually assume RHA

80-85 degrees is around where most bounce, though

>>32721916
http://www.j-mst.org/On_line/admin/files/09-04151_2076-2089_.pdf

>>32720039
Underrated post

>>32719940
Modern ATGMs vs obsolete 80s era Nato armor and winning? OH man who woulda thought that the ATGM warheads designed to defeat 80s era nato tanks are, actually defeating 80s era nato tanks.

>>32722083

There hasn't even actually been an ATGM hit on the front hull or turret yet.

The 2A4 can probably keep out Metis-M/TOW-2A if it's around M1A1HA+ level, and most tank trials tend to put the 2A4 a little better armored.

It's surprising seeing people think that they should be keeping out Cold War and later ATGMs from the sides and rear; they were never made for that

>>32722052
very interesting, thank you

>>32722083
>ATGMs made 20 years ago
>"Modern"

>>32722118
That's not what I said, I said that ATGM, RPGS and other shaped warheads, many of which were designed to defeat 80s era Nato tanks are doing just that. It's no surprise since the crews of these tanks are inferior to Nato crewmen, and can't even use these tanks to their full potential.

Autist.

>>32722118
>The 2A4 can probably keep out Metis-M/TOW-2A
With its frontal armor module revealed we can pretty sure conclude that Leopard 2A4 can't hold a shit.

>>32722118

Nah, Vanillia Leopard 2A4 is generally considered not as protected across the front as M1A1 HA. It's better than M1A1, but those 3 tons of depleted uranium serious buffed up the front turret of the HA.

>>32722134
Maybe you should do the math, no wait lemme do it for you buddy

>20 year old ATGMs
>20 years ago was the mid-late 90s
>Against mid-late 80s era nato tanks
>Crewed by kebab

While there are designs out there newer, the ATGMs used in Syria right now are relatively modern warheads.

>>32721206
Nope, not sloped enough. It actually has a cr2 style glacis design.

>>32722166
This is not the song that krauts singed for 20 years.
>muh impenetruble chobhum curamec armour!

>>32722216
Who cares what the krauts think, they hardly fight in wars, big surprise their tank, a tank that has seen nothing but hype since it was released, finally seeing combat and showing it's armors true potential, now as I said, the warheads being used are newer, so obviously it's not fair to use these example as what would happen if the cold war went hot, but it is showing that the Leo2s aren't this mythical steel beast anymore, and it's just a regular ol' tank like the Abrams or T-72.

Still, I don't like using kebab crewed tanks as examples of anything, I'm surprised they didn't try to load shells into the gun like a muzzle loader.

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>>32722216

>muh impenetruble chobhum curamec armour!

That's one of the best ruses of 20th century military.

In 2014, the DOD essentially declassified what Chobam was, and you can find it in one of the FOIA documents.

Most of the armor on the Abrams is NERA, rubber/plastic sandwiched between steel plates, then put under tension by bolts. When hit, the released tension and expanding filler causes the plate to violently buckle, disrupting a HEAT jet/snapping a sabot.

The ceramic portion consists of a moderately thin block behind all the NERA.

>>32722153

You can't see anything with the frontal hull.

>>32722326

That's actually pretty advanced armor.

You have spaced effect of metal being thrown in the path of the jet/rod and the reactive element that provides hard lateral motion of the plates across the rod/jet.

Ceramic armor is quite simple in comparison; metal and quartz compounds are quite easy to make and fill cavities with.

>>32722155

2A4 went through a few armor upgrades as did the M1A1.

The Swedes put the Leopard 2A4 as a little better than the M1A1 (comparable era for their tests), and the Aussies put them about the same (newest 2A4 against M1A1SA, which is M1A1HA++ or so).

I had a Leopard 2A4 crew member tell me that the AT-14 is the only thing that will punch them from the front, and the 2A6 offers protection from it. Yeah, secondhand and all that, but considering the M1A1M can keep out all but the AT-14, it might be pretty close to the truth.

>>32722632
>That's actually pretty advanced armor.
Yes this is called reactive armor. Remember how every burger and kraut bashed on reactive armor?

>>32722687
>Crews know protection level of their tanks
Kek

>>32722734
They probably do roughly, but taking the word of a bunch of tankers on their specs is something to be skeptical about because most of them are likely lying and exaggerating.

>>32719940
Oh for fucks sake

Fuck off newfag

>>32720421
The CR2 has ammo in the turret.

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>>32724920
The thread was minutes away from dying before you bumped it.

>>32720039
kek

>>32720488
>Black paint and Kontact-5 are only on T-90s
how can you ever see what is this?
Also source is pro assad so it can't be t90

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I like how virtually all of the kills were made in open terrain rather than urban environment typically unsuited for tanks.

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>>32719940

oh look, western tanks finally face same up to date RPGs

not even remotely surprised they got BTFO

slavshit armor best armor, cause you know they actually fight in conflicts

>>32722711

the best part was when after pretending for a couple decades that ERA is bullshit and russians are stupid, everyone started slapping on ERA blocks

>>32719940
Since we already had a lot of those threads and the obvious vatniks will always leave out vital stuff in order to create a wrong vibe around stuff or just directly lie:
-Leopard with blown off turret or broken hull were hit by turkish airstrike after the tanks where abandoned
-other Leopards were hit in the side by ATGM, which means any other tank, would have not performed better in the same situation (actually worse since most tanks dont have a seperated ammo rack in the turret)
-there has been no confirmed kill of a Leopard from the front
-the tanks were send in without infantry support and hit in the side like in a traditional middle east fashion
-turkey internals revealed that a good chunk of the tank crews survived either by fleeing after getting hit, running away from an suprise attack or approaching VBIED when they were camping outside of the tank or driving of with the damaged tank
-there has been no video or picture of a Leopard who got directly hit by a ATGM in the ammo rack of the hull

Now prepare for the manditory vatnik butthurt of calling me Turk/Fatnik/... and or deamanding proofs, while at the same time the thread is full of their lies without any proof whatsoever.

>>32720535
>If you HAVE to have it in your hull, you want it way back from the front, out of the way of most likely hit locations in the event of a frontal or front below impact
The Israelis figured this out in the 19 fucking 70s, and designed accordingly. The whole world memed about it and are now figuring out that maybe for once the Jews were right.

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and this is why gentlemen, this shit was born

so ERA is not a meme right?

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>>32725228
Needs more grenade launchers

>>32720442
Hull ammo storage isn't for combat, it's for marching. Reduces the amount of logistics vehicles (or the load of the logistics vehicles) you need for a tank company.
Problem is, Middle Easterners tend to just load up as much ammunition as possible, and then some.

There's an interesting story about this. During the Iran - Iraq war, footage of Iranian Chieftains cooking off quickly caused quite a bit of worry in the British Army.
But when they conducted their investigation, they found that the Iranian tankers would store extra ammunition & charge bags around the fighting compartment.

>>32721762
U wot m8
t. Mech eng.

>>32725228
More like an abortion since only Kazakhs got suckered into buying it, not even the Russians want it

>>32722326
>The ceramic portion
There isn't one. Look at the full PDF, the block with circles is a mounting bracket to put the array at the correct distance from the steel backplate. The turret has a 3 layer backplate, which is probably HHS sandwiched between normal steel.
The spacing bracket is also the probable reason why despite getting heavier, newer Abrams models haven't gotten much larger- there was a lot of space to use already.

I guess the Roach don't even know what an urban warfare is

i mean it was looked like they are too depended on MBT rather than infantry.

>>32720438
Welds done properly are as strong or stronger than parent metal, but when your ammo cooks off that doesn't matter much.

A hull loss is a hull loss. Hull can be mostly intact and still be a hull loss. Once tank is wasted the degree of destruction past kill is irrelevant. Sandnigs won't be rebuilding them.

The real solution is APS. Failure to field APS on every AFV is asking for death. Maneuverfags ignore you can't outrun a missile and that terrain can and will canalize armor. Infantryfags forget that while you can kill ATGW crews they can still kill your tank first.

The only country concerned with tank defense is Israel. Even the US are too cheap to field APS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VrAUTP6rTg

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>>32722169

Nope

>>32725315
There are several things to keep in mind; Erdogan removed a lot of military officers through the coup attempt (if it was even a real one) and replaced them with loyal people, which will not actually have boosted the competence, also turkey doesnt want to send to many soldiers into syria, since they fear high loses in personal or many captured soldiers, so they send in the big stuff rather unprotected.

>>32725339
>strong
While they may have the same tensile strength, the stress is higher because you can't get proper depth, and for most welds the weld geometry dictates that the effective stress is significantly lower than what the contact area wound signify. For thick plates, such as armor, you really can't get the plate to fail before the weld.

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>>32725346
He's correct in that both the chally and Leclerc have speciap armor on the upper glacis where the Abrams only has extremely sloped steel. The Chally had no special armor on the lower glacis until 1GW where they were fitted with ROMOR C to protect that area, and later (after the RPG 29 incident showed ERA was insufficient) a block of special armor was fitted. The Leclerc always had the armor there.
>pic: Chally upper armor cavities

>>32725301
Because the Russians were already developing the T-15, which is part of the Armata platform. So they had no reason to buy it.

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>>32725382
Pic 2: ROMOR C, showing spacing brackets for ERA.

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>>32725391
Pic 3: Chally with armor block fitted.

>>32725347
If you removed US officers, the lower ranking tankers would still understand proper tank employment.

Suddenly purging officers doesn't erase proper training for everyone else. Turkish failures indicate typical sandnig military incompetence. No surprise since Turkey was never able to decisively defeat and end the Kurdish resistance despite decades to do it.

Sending unprotected tanks is incompetent. Fortunately nothing of value is lost and we get some amusement out of it.

>>32725347
they should know whne in offensive, especially in urban warfare, fast move and infantry is more needed than heavy armors

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There is nothing more dangerous to armored vehicles then arab crewing it.

>>32725433
I cant tell if that AA Tank is put into service after has been standing around for years, it had been hit and put into service again or been in service for so long it looks like this. Probaly everything at once.

>>32725402
>>32725409
What i ment to say was, they werent good to begin with, now with people in charge gone and replaced, it hardly would have become better.

>>32725409
They should also have effective close air support but Turkey apparently does not. It's silly to attack a town without destroying it thoroughly first. Bombard, occupy, repeat.

Despite decades of training with the US and having excellent equipment, Turks gonna Turk. The opponent has no air force and Turkish F-16s and Phantoms can haul plenty of ordnance.

Apparently only Russia (who learned the hard way in Grozny Part 1) understands urban fighting. Destroy the city, plant your flag in the dust, repeat as necessary.

>>32725216

Except the Israelis fucked up just as much by putting the engine in the front.

The Abrams is the one that got it right. Engine at back, ALL ammo in the bustle.

>>32724929

It doesn't store any combustable elements in the turret. It's all inert rods or insensitive materials there.

>>32725270

So now you're trying to spin this as "True Leopard 2 crewmen only carry 15 rounds into battle."

How about no.

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>>32725391

But ROMOR-C are composite add-on armor panels, comrades.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3886.html

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>>32725028
>Open terrain is unsuited for tanks.
>t. 21st century strategists

>>32722326
Look how good armor that was obsolete and replaced 30 years ago was.

>>32725593
"Composite" it is code word for NERA what is another type of reactive armor (weaker type).

>>32725593

Sides were believed to be composite.

The lower glacis was definitely ERA. The Osprey book by Dunst confirms it.

>>32725645
Composite is any armour made from two or more materials in unison. So NERA qualifies, steel and ceramics together qualify, etc. Ie any armour made from a composite material instead of a single material.

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>>32725593
The lower front hull part of that upgrade kit (even if it specifically wasn't ROMOR C, it's hard to get details on the upgrade), was most definitely ERA.

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>>32725645

A composite armor consist of layers of different material, the bulging plates armor is made of different material.

>>32725658

So, what was the name of the side-mounted add-on armor featured on the up-armored Challenger 1 & 2 ?
What about the VARMA series ?

>>32725402
You misunderstand how kebab armies operate. Officers do *all* the thinking. Taking the initiative is unheard of.

Information is power in kebab circles and the kebabs jealously hoard their information because it makes them valuable.

>>32725402
You're right, it doesnt, but it does invalidate the advantage of said training.

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>>32720488
The russians have shipped several K5 armoured T-72s to Syria.

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>>32725837

>>32725623
Someone needs to work on their reading comprehension

>>32725885
That is just some butthurt vatnik who projects and strawmans hard. Basically every second stupid anime picture on /k/ is posted by him and all his post are basically this retarded.

>>32725885
>don't getting sarcasm

>>32725270
I think this would be news to any and all Leo 2 users. At least for the guys i worked with for 5 years

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>>32725391
wtf? WTF? what the flying fuck?
>Britbong technology

>>32725402
>>32725744
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

tl;dr:
>In Arab culture everything is taught by a teacher because this gives the teacher prestige. Manuals and books disrupt this dynamic and are not allowed
>Arab teaching methods rely heavily on rote memorization, crippling independent thought and problem solving
>Officers are upper class and treat enlisted men poorly; there is no NCO corps to bridge the gap
>Most enlisted men are draftees anyway and poorly motivated
>The chain of command is very rigid and orders are passed verbetim from the very top to the bottom. Junior officers do not make their own decisions and nobody questions or alters orders from high command. There is no concept of decisions being made at the company or battalion level.
>Arabs are proud and will not accept responsibility for any fuckups, instead finding some way to blame foreigners or circumstances outside their control, which inhibits learning from mistakes
>Tools and technicians are hoarded at the highest level leading to lack of basic maintenance
>Arabs don't trust anyone outside their own families
>Nobody really gives a shit about safety

>>32725928
>m-uh sarcasm
Yep, it is that idiot. Did the same thing it the last Leo thread already. If no one gets your "sarcasm" on the internet, then you are the problem, not the others.

>>32725382
>Leclerc have speciap armor on the upper glacis
Doubt that. I think french just have RHA ricochet plate on glacis and more of wishful thinking about ricochet. (like proposing BM-15 as main threat in the requirements...)

>>32725959
simply put, they are below animals intellectually and culturally. take this anecdote from an europoor:
>Arabs are proud
>be euro
>suffer refugees
>have to use tram to get to work ever day
>arabs don't give a shit
>they will cross the rails any where at any time
>feels like the think tram operator owes it to them to stop for them
>emergency braking goes up 100000%

>>32725959
Now try to explain why arabs win wars. You know every destroyed tank in this war is a little win. ISIS demonstrated quite level of expertise considering circumstances. NATO troops in their shoes with no air support and been on receiving end of entire world air forces would surrendered years ago crying "mommy save me!!!"

>>32725959
turds are not ayyrabs tho, this was down to the fact that most of turkey's high command (along with half of their teachers and judges) is currently in prison

>>32726049
>NATO troops in their shoes
Obvious vatnik detected, it is like they cant stop thinking and trying to drag NATO in every discussion.

>>32726049
>Arabs fighting Arabs
>huh, wonder why arabs won

>>32726049
>Now try to explain why arabs win wars.
They dont and never have historically unless they outnumbered by extreme margins (ottomans lost plenty of fights where they did outnumber significantly e.g. malta,)

Occasionally killing a tank is not a victory unless you have already conceded that actually winning is out of your grasp and you are just trying to do some damage. The reason it occasionally happens is because if you try enough eventually circumstances will line up favorably. Those dead tanks are essentially them rolling consecutive 20s a few times in a row.

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>>32726049
>Now try to explain why arabs win wars.

>IS has suicide attackers
>IS has had a schizophrenic relationship with the west, at times receiving arms, at times receiving bombings; also, they are everywhere, intangile masking as moderate beheader rebels etc. - you can't fight an enemy that can hide in open sight amoung groups you deem "civilians". they know that and use it openly to their advantage. pic related

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>>32726093

>>32726114
>all rebels in syria are ISIS meme

>>32726114
>>IS has suicide attackers
West had x20 times more JDAMs in this conflict.

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>>32726140
>moderate rebels meme

>>32726071
They are socially Arabs due to being Muslims. Pan-Arabic superstitionists are functionally interchangeable.

Apologists blame on prison what is clearly a result of culture. There was no hope for Ataturk's vision of Turkey, but that's a good thing because it is less likely to become an effective military threat to NATO or Russia when it goes full Islamo-Nationalist.

>>32726140
>all rebels in syria are ISIS meme
the conversion rates are staggering; Al Nusra has been just another battalion of IS from the beginning. I wished I had saved those vids 4 years ago of AN and IS generals calling each other brothers in arms. NA crimes are basically the same as those of IS, maybe less creative...

>>32726153
Nice obvious strawman you got there, totaly new and all. You are one good little parrot. Now go and claim i said rebels aint beheaders or anything, like the good little cuck you are, because i never said anything like that.

>>32726145
well I don't know what to tell you. Looks like all that tech is of little use. either that or somebody in the west is deliberatly sabotaging the war effort against IS.

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>>32725982
>Doubt that. I think french just have RHA ricochet plate on glacis

Noppe, pic-related

>(like proposing BM-15 as main threat in the requirements...)

According to Frenchfag, the Emirians tested their tropicalized Leclerc against OFL 120 F1 / DM43 120 mm tungsten APFSDS and these rounds were unable to penetrate the frontal arc of the tank at combat range.

>>32726173
No, this aint the case and it is an obvious meme people keep repeating, they will fight the same enemy, call themself brothers all day and lynch each other the next month.

>>32726205
>and lynch each other the next month.
which they do in IS too. in group treachery and infighting is rampant in any group of arabs. at this point, every single "rebel" faction is manned by moderate beheaders and as such should be gassed with tabun gas 24/7 like IS themselves.

>>32726238
That doesnt make them IS, you dumb fool. Stop parroting that shit, it makes you look like a retard.

>>32720477
stay mad roach

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>>32725347

Turks had some quite epic displays of incompetence even before coup attempt. Like setting up battery of 155mm L/52 self propelled howitzers in location where ISIS can reach 'em with fucking ATGM's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A_JUIJOmCU

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>>32726954
Times you get called Roach,Fatnik,Muslim,Jew,... on /k/: When you say something that vatniks or poltards dont like.

btw not that poster

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>>32725950
You ain't seen nothin yet

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>>32727100
yesssssssss

>>32727132
>>32727100
for what purpose

>>32727143
To fuck with the guys at maintenance. Could you imagine fixing this thing?

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>>32727185
>rod breaks
>pistons kamikaze into each other

>>32727143
>no valvetrain to maintain
>2-stroke for high output
>avoids 2-stroke oil consumption/ premixing
>high compression to expansion ratio (potentially)
>avoids catastrophic failure due to over pressurization as a result of 2 moving pistons (slightly out of sync) creating a combustion chamber rather than a piston and a cylinder head

>>32727143
Absurdly high power to weight and power to volume ratios.
They're still used on minesweepers for that reason.

>>32727132
Thanks doc

>>32725959
>http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars


>>32726049
>Now try to explain why arabs win wars. You know every destroyed tank in this war is a little win. ISIS demonstrated quite level of expertise considering circumstances. NATO troops in their shoes with no air support and been on receiving end of entire world air forces would surrendered years ago crying "mommy save me!!!"

Here is couple other articles by same author. About why Arabs do reasonably well as insurgents.

http://www.rubincenter.org/2013/03/western-influence-on-arab-militaries-pounding-square-pegs-into-round-holes/
http://www.rubincenter.org/2016/02/muhammad-taught-us-how-to-fight-the-islamic-state-and-early-islamic-warfare-tradition/

TL;DR
>they share usually share common tribal and ideological backgrounds with commanders and other fighters, so fighters trust commanders and commanders trust their fighters.

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>>32725950
Hnnnnnngggggg

>>32727100
>>32727132

Napier Deltics make me hard

>>32726184
>I'm DEFINITELY not mad: the post

>>32725274
I am also a mech engineer.
Weld ARE usually stronger than the plates they get welded too, in fact it's usually a requirement when testing.
That said, I can't make a guess on armor steel which may have undergone special treatments.

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>>32727027
i don't even

>>32725645
>weaker type
I remember an article that stated that modern NERA was actually more effective, since it acted faster than ERA. That's why the spiked nose of the Leo2A5 is made of it.

>>32728007
http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/symp_19/TB611523.pdf

>>32727753
>get rekted
>erm...ehhhh...you are butthurt
its uncanny how often this happens

>>32728128
this is really interesting
how do you find these?

>>32727485
The most hilarious thing is that Turks aren't even fucking Arabs. Half of this thread is shit talking Arabs for sucking at Western style warfare when they're the ones who blew up these Turkish Leopards in the first place.

This is a far better example of why Americans fail at modern warfare - you have to understand the culture and people you're trying to work with. Obviously, this is too much for the average American grunt.

>>32720039

Awesome

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>>32728289
>The most hilarious thing is that Turks aren't even fucking Arabs. Half of this thread is shit talking Arabs for sucking at Western style warfare when they're the ones who blew up these Turkish Leopards in the first place.

Arabs are also involved on both sides when it comes to Turkish Leopards blowing up. Turkey has been reluctant to send in their own infantry in large numbers, so infantry Turkish Leopards are supporting is mostly Syrian moderate beheaders. Even stranger when it comes to Turkish army in Syria is that they use Special Forces and Commandoes as mechanized infantry there. Erdogan don't have enough guts to send major infantry units into Syria.

When it comes to Turks not being Arabs, culturally they are somewhere between Arabs and West, due to pic related. His idea was to turn Turkey into a nation state and modernize culture of Turkey by forced secularism. Erdogan is trying to undo that.

>This is a far better example of why Americans fail at modern warfare - you have to understand the culture and people you're trying to work with. Obviously, this is too much for the average American grunt.

The reason why Iraq and Vietnam Wars turned out as they did is complete lack of understanding enemy goals. When US defeated Saddam, there wasn't any real plan how run Iraq after it, for fucks sake there wasn't any coherent and unified COIN plan.

>>32720344
Arabs seem to love to jam as much ammo into stuff as they physically can. I don't know why as they usually just abandon stuff once things get dicey rather then fight it out.

>>32720580
Just curious, why don't you specifically aim for the ammo? It seems like a good idea...

>>32728985
The ammo is only on one side of the tank, if you dont face that you cant do it, further if you hit the ammo in the turret, the ammo will blow off, but the crew will survive if the ammo blast door is closed as it should.

>>32728985
Because tanks are not large relative to the statisticsl spread of AT munitions, so you aim center of mass to ensure a hit. Particularly at long distance, where a tank might only be a small blob a few pixels wide on your sight.

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>>32722326

Ceramic myth BTFO.

>>32720890
t. retard

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>>32725339

Some good points but you're also forgetting that Sand Nigger armies don't operate like armies, and almost never use artillery or reconnaissance. If you follow the Syrian war, like me, you realize they don't even have a concept of light recon or armored recon.

In a real war of annihilation, heavy artillery bombardment would precede any major push and saturate any exposed position with hyper-sonic shrapnel. ATGM operators would be totally vulnerable.

But APS is indeed the new generation of suitability.

Any tank without APS can henceforth be considered obsolete.

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>>32727100
>>32727132


D E L T I C
E
L
T
I
C

>>32725339

Modern [and Cold War] tanks use high hardness steel in construction, which is stronger than the welds. The T-64s that lost their welds was because of this.

Mild and RHA can be held to equal levels of strength.

>>32725837

They don't have black paint jobs, and the area where the one burning was shown to be where 1-2 T-90s were operating.

Kontackt-5 T-72s aren't really that less armored than early T-90s anyway.

>>32725018

It's black
It has Kontack-5 on the turret

Pretty easy

There's one more T-90 that's burnt out after a TOW-2A hit, and the quality is better.

>>32730823

So, from T-90s we've seen hit in video:

1 was damaged to some extent, though repairable
2 were lost/seriously damaged (smoke coming out of hatches)

No better than the Leopard 2A4s, even though they're newer tanks.

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>>32720488

The 2nd T-90 lost

>>32728289
Americans fail at modern warfare because they've hamstrung themselves turning war into a politically driven shitshow.
If the us military was put in theatre and given the go ahead to kill, there wouldn't be anyone left to do insurgent shit

>>32728289

Who said the Turks are failing?

Losing 10 tanks is nothing if you end up killing 100s of fighters in the process.

>>32732675

>fail

Not really

Battles of Sadr City and Fallujah were outright massacres with overwhelming force, and fighting the same militants that are there now.

US and the West only goes backwards when it tries to be peaceful with light infantry.

But, if a battle needs to be won, it'll win it.

>>32732675
>Americans fail at modern warfare because they've hamstrung themselves turning war into a politically driven shitshow.
>If the us military was put in theatre and given the go ahead to kill, there wouldn't be anyone left to do insurgent shit

1. Win almost all battles.
2. Have no actual objectives.
3. Lack political will for necessary long term commitment.
4. ??????
5. Profit.

US participation in modern conflicts in nutshell.

>>32732715
I dunno, I mean tanks are expensive, sandniggers are not. Also lost tanks also means losing trained crew members.

On that topic, do we even now how many infantry casualties Turkey has got so far?

>>32722711
Not the same kind of ERA in any regard anon.

>>32720488
>>32732280
getting pretty desperate, are we. not a single t-90 has been lost in syria. you can grasp at straws and shitty low res pics all you want but there hasn't been a single confirmed kill so far. meanwhile we're up to 20 with m1 and 10 a4's

>>32732280
If it was really destroyed ISIS would just spam by high res pics

>>32727027
This is hilarious. I remember last year when some Turks claimed they would kick Russias ass in an open conflict, but now they are getting rekt kick by a bunch of goat fuckers with ATGM's.

>>32720039

fpbp

>>32735590
Assad doesn't use his good stuff against ISIS. This one was knocked out by the opposition.

>>32725972
nope, i am that other guy and this proves you are just a turbo-autist. Btw this is not sarcasm

>>32735590
>implying Assad has been doing much against ISIS
kek

>>32725530
The bagged charges are stored in bins around the loader.

>>32725734
Source on that pic?

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>>32736911

=> http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.be/2016/03/chobham-armor-facts-and-fiction-1.html

>>32738238
Out of curiosity, how well would this perform against the heavy late WWII cannons? I'd imagine a heavy full caliber shell to pretty much ignore some elements of the pictured armor

>>32720590
>Can't fire more than 11 rounds before having to leave combat to reload
baka

>>32720407
Holy fuck, did the entire front section of the Leo2 get torn off in the explosion? Are shells stored right next to the driver or something?

>>32738435
Did you know this all already and just ask to shitpost? It sounds pretty much like this.

>>32738301
It would do very well considering it is meant to protect against modern guns/ammunition with multiple times the penetration of the best WW2 had to offer.

>>32735544
>those pictures don't count, Russia has not officially acknowledged any losses

>>32738301

WWII era ammo with APCR (nearly full caliber penetrator) or full caliber AP shots would have relatively better performance than modern sabot rounds, but their theoretical performance not even close to achieving penetration. AP shell against modern glacis angles might outright bounce.

To fuck up modern tank with WWII era weaponry I'd go for heavy 150mm-ish SPG's. On that kind of caliber just HE shell would fuck up any modern tank with ease, if not outright kill with catastrophic damage it would be certain operational kill.

>>32738466
It was a guess, sorry for being right about it you fucking walnut

>>32738301
It might not be overly impressed with some of the outer parts, but those are just there to destabilise HEAT and APFSDS before they hit the normal armour, and an WW2 shell will be a fly on a windshield there.

The highly sloped parts could also deflect the old shell, or make it tumble, and the plates in it might set off an APHE shell prematurely.

>>32738942
As if it aint to obvious pretend to make a discussion about stuff since you want to high light it again.

>>32720407
A truly proud heir to T-64 traditions of olympic glacis throwing.

>>32725623
>reading comprehension
>what is it?

>>32736847
>implying it means anything
Congratilations, you managed to act like another idiot before you, dont act smug just because you arent that idiot, you are one non the less.

>>32738700
>>32738301
I remember seeing photos of a blown up T-64 after a direct hit from a heavy artillery shell, those have changed very little since WWII.
That said if by cannons you mean tank guns, well it won't scratch it.

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>>32740562

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>>32740597

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>>32740608

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>>32740618
In this example the tank was also hit by ATGM as we can see coppar splash mark on the turret which is typical when getting hit by ATGM or RPG's.

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>>32740637