Body Armor Question

I'd go with just taking more shots and aiming for the legs if possible

>>32691460
>how would a "bad guy" defeat it short of explosives
aim for the hips. ffs even niggers know this

File: deadpool.jpg (287KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

287KB, 1920x1080px

Cock shot!

I remember reading accounts of the taliban aiming for the hips/pelvis. A shot to either would incapacitate a combatant, especially with the mass of arteries in those areas.

>>32691460
Option A. aim for a weakpoint, some place the armor does cover like limbs and armpits.

Option B, anything heavier than a .50 BMG

File: Timothy_McVeigh.jpg (19KB, 400x559px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 400x559px

>>32691460
Well I've been there and done that. Just hope you don't gotta wear the flak with side sapis, that thing is a bitch.

To answer you tho, how'd I do it like in America if I was facing Ng or something. Shoot them in the leg. It's the most unguarded area on a soldier or a Marine. If you hit the femoral artery they are fucked and probably going to die unless doc does some magic. Otherwise you atleast took them out of the fight, which should be the goal.

>>32691460
>defeat it short of explosives
AP ammunition.

File: 1469483248165.jpg (298KB, 773x1033px) Image search: [Google]

298KB, 773x1033px

>>32691548
I hate deadpool, sigh, he is right though. There is a lot of blood-vessels in the groin area.

>>32691659
Tim did nothing wrong. He brings up alot of good points too.

File: 145834614416745.jpg (65KB, 480x449px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 480x449px

>>32691460
Shot the parts without plate.

>>32691891
>tfw I'm a 5.6 feet asian manlet
Feels good man

Just wound them and be done with it.
A dead man isn't bothering anybody, a man with a nasty wound bothers his squad to secure the area and get him out, the driver to get him back home, a doctor to put him together, a nurse to watch after him as he heals, physiotherapists, psychiatrists, and the national economy afterwards (disability benefits and taking his family out of work to care for him at home) in a worst case scenario.
... Which explosives accomplish perfectly well, while allowing the perpetrator to be far away as to escape retribution.

>>32693271
Do you think someone getting wounded just stops the shooting?

>>32691807
holy shit that moon flag

File: FW6FGLV.jpg (332KB, 1280x1860px) Image search: [Google]

332KB, 1280x1860px

didnt want to make a whole thread for this question (since it might be stupid). I know if you have the correct level armor the bullet should not get through the plate/ soft armor, but is there any reason you would require medical attention even if the bullet did not get through the armor?

>>32691460
SLAP rounds. HEAT rifle rounds in big-boy calibers coming soon(TM)

>>32691630
50 bmg is fine 338 likely would fuck your shit up plate or no. I am curious what impact a hot 500 grain 45-70 would have but I figure momentary loss of balance is most likely

>>32693348
any sort of hit to soft armor will hurt like hell even if it's a no-pen
might even get internal bleeding from blunt trauma but this is very rare

>>32693384
I assume hard armor would still hurt but not get to the point of potential internal bleeding? also sorry for last post that was the wrong pic

>>32693348
You shouldn't.

>>32691662

It's designed for AP

>>32693368
FMJ .338 will not penetrate level 4

>>32693402

If it doesn't penetrate the plate, you'll be hit with about the same force as the recoil of the gun.

So, not at all.

There's plenty of accounts of soldiers hit with AK/PKM fire and not even knowing it.

>>32693416
It's the same impulse, but the higher acceleration will yield more force on the plate end.

>>32693348
If you get shot, you're getting a trip to the hospital regardless of the situation.

>>32693409
No pen on lapula good to know. I wonder what my ruger #1 with good old 30 cal ap could do with enough powder but I worry it would fuck the barrel faster than the plate

File: 1428375634178.gif (1MB, 400x225px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 400x225px

>>32693345
What's wrong with Moon flags?

THIS IS MURRICA' BOY!

>>32693443
even if you get hit in the plate?
>>32693416

>>32693432

Yeah, about the same.

You won't notice any appreciable difference, and it won't hurt you.

The biggest issue is backface spalling and jacket/bullet frag that can hit you, even without perforation of the plate. That's where liners come into play.

>>32693462
Most likely no. Soft armor can give you a bruise but that's about it.

>>32691494
>>32691548
You do in fact, go for the dick.

Realistically, you use explosives, penetrators, or use volume of fire to either get a shot on an unprotected area or overwhelm the plate.

It's not like RDX is hard to find in the middle east though, all this really does is cut down on fatalities from your average durka spraying patrols with an AK. It doesn't turn soldiers into tanks either, you're not going to take hits and keep going without training that has yet to be implemented.

File: hqdefault (2).jpg (37KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 480x360px

MFW the time is 308

>>32693462

No, you'll be fine as long as there's no perforation and any frag is caught by the liners.

>>32693469
sorry another dumb question but when a plate says it can take say a 45 round, does that include HP rounds?

>>32693348
As long as the anti-spall layer isn't fucked, look at how HESH rounds work if you would like to know more.

>>32691460
A shot to the unprotected area of the shooter's cut renders that arm useless.

A shot to the gut makes someone useless soon™. Shots to the face have obvious effect.

Shots to the arm will eventually result in hypotension, or disable it.


Armor is good at saving your heart, lungs, and spine, and that's about it. That's a lot, mind you, and is great to have, but also kind of relies on having friendlies around to drag your ass to cover and call for medevac.

Also, the most commonly hit body part tends to be hands holding weapons.


That said, you should still never aim for anything but center of mass.

>>32693485
Yes, hollow points are even less likely to penetrate.

>>32693510
because they hit more area and therefore have less energy since its spread so thin? sorry if I'm potato

>>32693416
>As the recoil of the gun

LOL ABSOLUTELY NOT

A projectile went from mach jesus to 0 in almost literally no time. That's a shit ton of deceleration directly into your ribs. Cracked, broken ribs are a thing that happens sometimes, contusions common.

Nothing you couldn't fight through, though ideally you don't get hit in the first place.

>>32693522
The mushroom effect makes it harder for it to slip through the fibers.

>>32693535
Someone should do the math for a 7.62x39 hitting a Level IV medium size plate.

>>32693536
There's also metals and ceramics.

Stick a needle through a piece of paper.

Now try stabbing that paper with a sharpened potato.

>>32693348
You might get bruising on soft armor if it's taking shotguns but that's about it

>>32693314
it stops him from effectively shooting

>>32693549
>There's also metals and ceramics.
I was talking specifically about soft armor.

>>32693471

Not really. Velocity, bullet material (harder = better) and sectional density, are where it's at.

Sub-caliber [steel] darts are the future of armor penetration.

Real fast at impact .223 will do better than .308, for example. Firing .22 cal projos from a .308 is even better.

>>32693575
>steel
Haha, steel.

>>32693535

The force of the projectile will be absorbed over a greater area than the stock on your shoulder.

You will feel no difference if you're hit in the plate than if you shot the gun from your shoulder.

Mythbusters did it if you want something to watch.

>ctrl f
>pelvic girdle
>0 results
I am disappoint.
Getting shot in the pelvis will break it. A broken pelvis is immediate and foolproof immobilization. Not to mention hitting arteries or lumbar vertebrae.

>>32693594
Shooting someone in the pelvis is a dick move

>>32693587

Steel with a brinel hardness higher than the armor is what you need.

Tungsten will cost too much for small arms.

>>32693594
and not to mention getting hit in your penor

>>32693575
Could definitely see 308 saboted down to the 17 to 22 range

>>32693471
> tfw time is 22 past
> tfw ausfag

>>32693604
Unless your target is one of them new fangled female marines

>>32693603
what if you had a cast lead projectile, drilled out the middle, and pressed a piece of tungsten/other very hard metal into the bullet?

>>32693614
christ, I never thought about that, I guess women are the superior warriors

>>32693608

It'll work against level 3+ with saboted .17/.22s; figure that a 4000 FPS .22 AP will be a little better than a typical 2700 FPS .30 AP.

When you get to 4 and higher, you really need saboted steel darts, especially you want armor perforation further than 100 yards away

>>32693611
hows the gun situation down there, i knew they were being more tolerant but not completely "fun city"

>>32693603
cheap or not, it's probably the next step anyway. armor is getting better much faster than boolits are getting more energetic

>>32693545
Did it. Comes out to pertnear 2,000 newtons, which is 1,000 short of the 25% threshold for cracked rib chance, using a 124gr projectile.

>>32693570
Gets eaten alive by rifle cartridges.

>>32693589
Their methods leave a hell of a lot to be desired. Reports of injuries with armor aren't refutable, but intermediate rounds won't do it to an L4.

>>32693626

The main problem is that you're giving up velocity from the excess mass of the lead.

You're pretty much just describing typical AP projectiles with a steel core.

Whereas if you just shoot the steel core, you'll get increased velocity so that you'll have a much higher range of perforation.

>>32693643
the trouble with darts is they need to be long...

>>32693654

You just need harder steel than the armor plate, and also a longer dart than the thickness of the armor.

We'll see a return to APDS in small arms pretty soon, as it'll be a lot harder and more expensive to use chemical reactions inside .22/.30 cal projectile to pierce armor plate outside of their velocity/length envelope.

File: .308 .22sabot.jpg (84KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 640x480px

>>32693608

>>32693638
They weren't protecting women by keeping them out of combat, they were protecting us

>>32693674

Not really

A 2mm dart the length of a 77 grain 5.56mm and moving close to 5000 FPS will punch through armor that will stop a .50 CAL API

>>32691460
Don't aim tight on the cardiac box, shoot lower into the belly or just offside against their forward or main shoulder. Get rounds on target as even impacts on the plate(s) will pull their focus off killing you and yours. Find cover, cover not concealment.

If you have the advantage in chosing when to engage then you can try to aim outside the coverage of the plate.

If you have support, and I sure hope you didn't go it alone, use enfillading fire to further suppress the target and take advantage of the directionality of the armor.

Above all, do not let the target assault into your position, maneuver if necessary, definitely maneuver if you have uninterrupted cover. Force the target to react to your maneuver, never let them use their armor to gain the ibertia.

>>32693466
spall is only appreciable when you get inch thick plates resisting any bmg round but slap/slap-t (which defeat up to 1.6x" of armor steel). Nobody wears one inch plates.

When they say spalling in the context of infantry hard armor, they mean strike face splatter coming from the round breakup up on and in the plate, which is why you see the great debate over steel since it promotes greater splatter and threatens the extremities of the wearer if the carrier or a cover pad laid over the strike face catches the splatter

>>32693496
That's because you can't reliably hit anything else if the target is moving in or about cover. CM shots also retain the highest likelyhood of a CNS hit between it and the lower thorax and abdomen, but as you don't hold a weapon with your legs it's more likely concealed or in cover.

>>32693659
>Gets eaten alive by rifle cartridges.
We weren't talking about rifle cartridges, dude.

>>32693594
Always wear the groin plate.

>>32693614
Clit shot

File: 1462905375154.jpg (76KB, 400x306px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 400x306px

>>32693722

Those plates are designed to keep a guy from taking lead to his center of mass. You know, where some important life support systems are. Like heart, lungs, spine...

They don't make soldiers bulletproof. They are just second chances.

Since responders are taught and trained to fire at COM they will be shooting at the body armor first. They will see zero effect but by the time they adjust fire it might be too late.

If you remember the Robo Robbers from about 1995 who made their own bulletproof suits and shot it out with the cops, one guy became an an hero but the other guy was shot in the feet / legs. Then he bled to death while medics took care of the cops first.

PS: His mom later sued over his lack of first aid.

>>32693982
Yes. So damn hard to hit anything IRL anyway you have no choice but to always aim COM. At least 99.999999% of time.

>>32694207
This, the way you train is the exact way you will fight. I think the most memetastic exploit of that reflexive tunnel vision is, I've heard it said, sidestepping out of their tunnel and effectively disappearing like a bad anime fight scene.

>>32694238
Dick is about the only viable non-com target

>>32694238
question, how bad is 4" group out of a Ruger American Pistol (4.5"? bbl, metal chassis polyframe striker-fired 9mm) at about... 30 feet, iirc? It was kind of strange, i fired off the whole seventeen after jogging into a kneel, swinging the weapon up, and literally just swinging it over the target and let it out without resighting or letting myself think about my form and how bad my reflexive teacup is.

Should I be ashamed or something like proud?

>>32694311
I don't know.

If anyone wants a case study in how body armor can upgrade a shooter's survivability, read about the North Hollywood shootout (which I above referred to as the 'Robo Robbers' but then googled)

The two well-armored men had fired approximately 1,100 rounds, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police.[6] Following their training, the responding patrol officers directed their fire at the "center of mass," or torsos, of Mătăsăreanu and Phillips. However, aramid body armor worn by Phillips and Mătăsăreanu covered all of their vitals (except their heads) while providing more bullet resistance than standard-issue police Kevlar vests, enabling them to absorb pistol bullets and shotgun pellets, while Mătăsăreanu's chest armor, thanks to a metal trauma plate, even successfully withstood a hit from a SWAT officer's AR-15. The service pistols carried by the first responding officers had insufficient range and relatively poor accuracy, and additionally they were pinned down by the robbers' high rate of fire, making it difficult to attempt a headshot. Each robber was shot and penetrated by at least ten bullets, yet both were able to continue shooting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout#Preparation

>>32694338
wunderbas, I've been wanting to ask /k/, but kinna terrified at the flak you guys dish out on a whim; figured I'd just toss it out at the first trip that looked like they'd know something

>>32694348
Come to think of it, we haven't seen a criminal use hard body armor in a shootout yet. Was it an extra felony count before the North Hollywood incident?

>>32694311
if you were shooting to kill it's very very good

>>32693575
>Not looking at the time of the post
Was off by a minute but close

>>32693408
It's designed to stop ancient AP at best. 5.56 or 7.62 AP is going to punch right through it.

>>32694461
Isn't that the primary application? Mind you, I don't even expect to ever find myself in a self-defense situation and I'd rather avoid killing, but if the pistol comes out then I'm already justifying a lethal end to the judgement of the court if it occurs. If I were to count shots or assess a target that hasn't dropped, dead or surrendered, then it most likely remains a threat that needs to stopped and doing any less is shooting to maim.

Im curious as to what handgun calibers could defeat plate armor

Ive heard a few times that a hot 9x25 dillon would

>>32694967
Most is rated to stop .30 cal AP ammo booking it at 2500+ fps. You'RE looking for something applying similar pressure at impact with, I assume, a similar momentum.

>>32693408
AP is designed for armor penetration. It's in the name.

>>32695484
Old armor standards tho, even then, it still takes a lot to stop something like 30-06ap; though it appears a few hundred units of hardness increase will resist, it seems, one or two of these rounds, a simple doubling in thickness, if even, provides a resilient barrier against multiple hits. Granted, if we're talking lolsteel, that means the infantryman will have to suffer a good portion of his ruckweight, also a good fraction of the weight whiche ye olde knights had to suffer at the height of their tin can parades, strapped firmly, I assume with both a backer and cover or a bulky soft armor carrier, to his core and the intolerable insulation it provides.

Amusingly and fortunately, ceramics continue to advance and I hear we're finally about to see a manufacturer use a multi-tile arrangement to privide heavy multihit defense against those heavy calibers

>>32694967
I don't think there's a practical use pistol out there that can scratch AR500 chest plates. You can shoot at them with 7.62 x 54 with steel core bullets from point blanc and you only make a divot.

>>32693314
Yep. Stops him shooting and the dude who evacs him.

File: 1287346926358.jpg (26KB, 184x177px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 184x177px

>>32693659
>>32693535

Christ, this stupid fucking redneck shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.

Look up Newton's Third Law. The force is the same as the recoil.

I'm actually fucking mad. Fuck.

I bet this stupid sister fucking nigger thinks that shotgun blasts throw people though windows as well.

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

>>32693348
Bruising, fractures especially with kevlar even with trauma plates can be a problem

>>32696859
Okay, listen, since you obviously missed basic fucking fucking Jr. High physics.

When you fire, the bullet accelerates. Peak velocity depends on ammunition and weapon, but it accelerates all the same. You've also got moving parts that help mitigate impulse.

Striking a plate is damned near instant deceleration. If you really think an AK recoils with a force of 2000N, you're god damned retarded.

>All of these insults to intelligence, despite being stupid as fuck, not understanding basic fucking physics

You should probably kill yourself, if only to avoid further embarrassment. Seriously, the world will be better off, just fucking kill yourself.

>>32696859
A bullet hitting a metal plate is going to decelerate faster than the bullet accelerating down the barrel. Also, the mass of the gun is accelerated as well, so the impulse of the bullet being fired is spread out over much more time. Because of this, the shooter will experience less force but over a longer time, whereas the person being shot will receive a higher instantaneous force over a shorter time.

Retard.

>>32696866
Obligatory

File: terjecasesx210.jpg (15KB, 210x349px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 210x349px

>>32694566
its designed to stop 30-06 AP and theres videos of it stopping multiple .338 lm hits, show me a video of any 5.56 or .308 penetrating a level IV plate with one hit

File: 1481317313224.jpg (38KB, 657x527px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 657x527px

how thick does some aluminum have to be to stop nigger bullets like 40. s&w, 380 or 9mm

>>32691460
Center mass -> Pelvic Girdle -> Head is standard procedure for shooting people
>>32698513
What kind of aluminum ? Many cheaper IV ceramics use a thin plate of them to help

File: 1480463570653.png (64KB, 658x901px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 658x901px

>>32698540
literally melted street signs in a hole in the ground

>>32698560
You mean melted beer cans, right?
1/4" for pistol rounds probably safe but you will get backface deformation and spall city
M113A is 3/4" of good aluminum and stops most rifle rounds.

If I wuz you I would do 3/8" with rhino liner coating. But kevlar or some of the uhmwpe IIIA plates will be lighter and thinner

>>32693931
>Nobody wears one inch plates.
My Hesco 4600 level IV plates are just over an inch thick. UHMWPE/ceramic composite.

>>32699203
Sorry, one inch steel plates

>>32698505
I can't because M993 and M995 are not widely available, but both are going to be far superior to .30-06 AP considering its soft penetrator.