M27 IAR

>>32664565
It's a roundabout way to get a new infantry rifle and DMR.

>>32664565
it's lighter weight, more accurate and can use magazines more reliably than the SAW.

They also aren't completely getting rid of the SAW

>>32664565
My thoughts was that they were trying to replace the saw with something that takes m4/m16 mags when needed and saves ammo by making more precise shots. This is speculation and recollection, not hard fact.

>inb4 saw can take stanag mags in an emergency

>>32664703
Thats what I remember from the article, but it seems like they're muddling the role of the LMG when comparing accuracy vs volume of fire.

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>>32664565
M27 will supplement SAWs. Automatic rifles suppress with accurate bursts like DMRs not by volume like MGs, they're somewhere in-between a DMR and MG in function. Optimally you would want both , with 2 to 1 ratio, as MGs can suppress a larger area but automatic rifles can suppress specific targets.
That being said, 30 round magazines doesn't cut it at all, a real automatic rifle should be like pic related.

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>>32667023
Oops

>>32666987
If I'm recalling correctly, it also has something to do with how the Marines are wanting to put a suppressor on every weapon system at their disposal. As it allows officers to better control a unit during battle, apparently it's proven to better a Marine's shot placement due to reduced noise/enemy not taking as much cover, and conserve ammo.

>>32667023
Given that the USMC is going to start using pmags expect them to also use Magpul's 60 round drum.

03 yut yut here

The M249 aka the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) is now designated as a LMG and used by Machine Gunners. The M27 obviously took that role within the squad. Now chances are you'll have a machine gun team attached to your squad or platoon anyway. Which they will likely have a 240.

Obviously this is situation dictates based on what your unit actually has, but for example in my unit, we didnt have too many 249s. So maybe every squad got one, but usually like two per platoon. Which is not ideal. What is ideal is having one PER fireteam. Which is what the M27 allows. So when we finally got our M27s we had like 2-3 per squad.

A M27 Gunner just gets issued more mags.

>>32667101
also i had the m27 for a while so you guys can ama

>>32667109
what makes it different from a regular M4?

>>32667306
A ton of things, for starters its piston operated,
slightly more effective on a point target. Most M4's in the grunt platoons are semi/burst, rather than semi/full(M4a1). For example the only people that had the m4a1's (Full/semi) were our snipers, everyone else had the (semi/burst). However the m27 is semi/full.

Its heavier than an m4, and comes with a Trij SDO w/ RMR and bipod.

>>32667306
It is a rebranded HK416.

>>32664565
>>32667101
Another grunt here.

Also, the M27 has a huge advantage in that at a distance it looks like a regular M4. There's an old saying, "a machine gunner's life expectancy is 30 seconds after his first burst." This weapon system is less obvious and so the MG gunner can't be targeted first in an ambush as easily. Notice how after Iraq kicked off they were giving SAWs shorter barrels and collapsing stocks, trying to make it less obvious.
Also the M27 changes the way suppression works. Keep in mind you can be suppressing an enemy out 500 yards away. The SAW was all about throwing as much led as possible at them. The M27 is all about sending less, but far more accurate fire at them. I haven't used it at that kind of distance but I'm told it is far better.

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>>32664565
>>>32664565
>it's lighter weight, more accurate and can use magazines more reliably than the SAW.
>
>They also aren't completely getting rid of the SAW

Very true.
If it gets battle proven, I hope the Army adopts it.

>>32667831
Army will probably skip straight to LSAT LMG, it's pretty close to being a finished product now.

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Imagine a 5.56 FG-42 as an IAR type weapon. Would be pretty neat.
You could stick a longass mag in it without having any trouble when going prone, although you'd fuck the balance in the process.

>>32667841
I honestly don't know much about the LSAT.

>>32667472
why don't RCOs come with RMRs?

>>32667090
That's a pretty big jump. That's like saying expect them to use surefire's 60rd mags. The military/government is autistic about that stuff. They approved a specific 30rd pmag, not the entire line of products.

Surely they will use more than 30 round mags with it, because above that would make it much more effective, correct?

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>>32664565

How come nobody fields an M4/M16 type weapon that has
>heavy barrel
>gas piston system
>50-100 round drum
>fires semi from the closed bolt and full automatic from the open bolt
>that weighs 12-15 pounds

Basically, how come a mdernized colt automatic rifle isn't fielded as a light machine gun to replace M4s and M16s and supplement the m249/m240?

>>32667083
Probably also how it reduces the recoil to basically nil with that extra weight on the end of the barrel.

>>32664565
SAW is often overkill at the squad level and for things like building clearing it's a liability.
Like >>32667767 says it also stands out less.
The M27 is better at being an M4 than the SAW, which is still available as needed.

I assume it's also a move back to the automatic rifleman idea. Any grunts know if/how they're changing training in that regard?

>>32667960
I'm an older, salty Easd former m249 gunner. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me, maybe one of these newer Marines can tell me.

I had to carry 600 rounds on me, and my A gunner carried another 200. That's 20 fucking mags worth I carried, and another 6-7 for A gunner. What is what a normal guy with a m16 carries.

>>32667939
Me neither. Surprised me too when I didn't get into law school

>>32667831

>caseless ammo
>in a machine gun

Are there any overheating issues with the lsat from the caseless ammo?

>>32667767
>Notice how after Iraq kicked off they were giving SAWs shorter barrels and collapsing stocks,

To make them handier weapons for close-quarters battles like Fallujah, perhaps?

>>32667983
Because it sucked dick

So all I'm getting out of this thread is that the M27 is like the BAR of modern times and that it would be greatly improved if it had 60+ round mags for more sustained fire. Yea?

>>32668070
They decided to use polymer cased telescoped ammo, hence the program is now known as CTSAS.
From what I understand the polymer cases trap a fair amount of heat inside themselves without really absorbing much, or something like that.

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>>32668152
The idea of how it would be used is similar to how the BAR was used near the end of its service life.
As for 60 round mags that would depend on the mag and how effectively they can be carried. The P-60 is like 3x as wide as a standard Stanag magazine. So you're only carrying 60 rounds in the space it did take to carry 90.

>>32668212
But isn't constant reloading somewhat against the idea of a squad automatic weapon, much like what the BAR had to deal with? Aren't there straightish 60 round mags?

>>32668243
A 60 rounder is either long as fuck or of dubious reliability.

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>>32668212
>>32668243
>>32668261
we quad stacc nao

>>32668212
>>32668152
>drum mags
[jamming intensifies]

>>32668264
And they've proven very unreliable.

>>32668261 is right. They either don't work or are cumbersome. The Surefire for instance is too long to use while prone. Magpul made theirs a wide drum to alleviate that issue, which made it very wide.

I wonder if a better idea isn't issue say two P-60s to the automatic rifleman and maybe one to someone else to fill the old ammo bearer role. Fill the rest of the load with 30 rounders and maybe a bandoleer of stripper clips.

>>32667023
I don't know why they don't buy SureFire 60s for them.

>>32667983
>gas piston system
Stop this.

>>32668329
OR you could feed from the side, as previously suggested.

Or the top.

>>32667983
the brits and germany did try to "lmg-ifed" their enfield and g36, but ultimately went back to the m249 or similar weapon.

>>32667886
Or ya know, just rotate the rifle

>>32668264
>dubious reliability

>>32668415
>>gangster style

>>32664565

It doesn't do anything better than a normal AR.

>>32664625

SAW's are suppressive fire weapons, they aren't meant to be super accurate.

>>32664703

Once again, accuracy not required. M249's also take AR pattern mags, but the bolt does shear the feed lips.

>>32668152
All you should be getting out of this thread is that the Marines want new toys and they like to feel special, like their 1911 and M9A1s.

A lot of people feel like this is just a new way to slowly get new service rifles, hence why it went from "new SAW" to "supplementing the saw"

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>>32667090
>Magpul's 60 round drum.
RPK-16 and Ultimax fit 100 rounds drums. Why magwell was a mistake?

>>32668353
Gas piston has much colder bot and chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvccUuJ0i-4

>>32668463
You're missing the point automatic rifles suppress like DMRs.
>inb4 DMRs can't suppress

>>32668463
>SAW's are suppressive fire weapons, they aren't meant to be super accurate.
Funny thing that during qualification SAW gunners actually required to hit their targets, isn't it?

>>32664607
the IAR is open bolt right? that's a terrible idea for a rifle/DMR

>>32668731
>the IAR is open bolt right?
Closed bolt only.

>>32668285
D60's are very reliable.

>>32668538
>physically larger drum holds more

fascinating

Does it take belts?

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>>32668731
HK's design isn't. It's just a dolled-up 416.

FN's HAMR starts off in closed and switches to open as it heats up somehow. LWRC's and I think Colt's submissions were closed in semi and open in full.

Seems like anything besides the HK would've been better if they were actually going for a suppression weapon.

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>>32668829
It is same height as 30 rounder. AR-15 drums of the same height hold only 60 rounds due to "tail" going into magwell.

They will give them to "automatic riflemen" which are different from riflemen and machine gunners and grenadiers and squad leaders.

>>32668884
>and switches to open as it heats up somehow.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011smallarms/WednesdayWeapons12299Gavage.pdf

>>32668212

I'm thinking a reliable casket mag would be the answer here

>>32668899
So you acknowledge it is a larger drum, but still feel like arguing for the sake of it.

Why not use normal m4/16 a1s?

>>32668955
>So you acknowledge it is a larger drum
It has same height so no difference for the prone firing position.

>>32667090
>>32668899

I do expect that the Muhreens will specify a loadout as having a primary mag be a D60, with all subsequent mags in the loadout being 30s since they fit more appropriately in any carry pouches.

I'm just glad there's finally a Stanag compliant drum that doesn't suck cocks.

>>32669007
>, with all subsequent mags in the loadout being 30s since they fit more appropriately in any carry pouches.
Do carry systems exist that allow (semi)comfortable storage of D60?

>>32667886
I think a few of the competitors to the M27 used the open bolt in automatic mode like the FG42.

>>32668564
>Gas piston has much colder bot and chamber.
No, it won't. The majority of the energy that will raise the temperature of the bolt face and the chamber is, surprise, going to come from the chamber. Not the significantly cooler gases entering the cylinder of the AR-15's gas system.
>but I have a video
Yes, of two entirely different firearms which have numerous differences in design/construction. They're incomparable in this matter.

>>32668948
>reliable casket mag
What?

>>32669215

I know the ones in current production are garbage, but it's the only one I can think of that would be actually somewhat practical to carry

>>32669071
However, nobody submitted a side-feeder.
I think being able to use simple extended magazines from the bipod without them getting in the way of the ground, combined with 30 rounders when handling is a priority makes a lot of sense.

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>>32668899
>What is diameter

We live in three dimensions anon

>>32669326
I agree. An offset optic would probably do a good enough job of mitigating the balance issue.

>>32664565

Prolly b/c HQMC listened to fuckers who wanted a new 5.56 rifle that wasn't a M16 and realized the SAWs the Crotch currently has are fucking old as shit.

Make no fucking mistake the M27 does the job as a rifle and the fun switch and bipod means you can walk three rounds bursts into paper at 300 or so yards.... it is not a no shit belt machinegun a la the M249.

What should have happened was new SAWs- prolly the Mk 46s for everybody plus the M27 and officers/SNCOs and Ricky Recon types get the M4A1. And support all that shit. That actually means spending money and the USMC is cheap.

>>32667101

If they reorged rifle squads into maneuver and fire elements- then sure put two SAWs in a fire team along w/ one of the M32 40mm six guns. And the other two fire teams could be M16s and M27s and shit but since current doctrine for rifle squads being able to both fire and maneuver it seems the SAW is being held at platoon for bootenant and staff sausage to do as he sees fit (mainly police calling the parking lot and mowing the lawns around the company orifices).

>>32668765
>Closed bolt only.
No. Closed bolt on the first shot on full retard, then open after.
Closed bolt only on semi-retard.

>>32669458
They ditched that requirement. The M27 is closed-bolt.

>>32668884

HQMC prolly went with the 416 design b/c there weren't any real mechanical changes, ergo guns could get out the door faster and/or cheaper or both.

Going w/ a hybrid open bolt/closed bolth designs would offer serious advantages but that would have mean major changes in the receivers, bolts, bolt carriers, and barrels over the base design. And it would have to be proven in terms of reliability, durability, and maintainability.

Of if the powers that be had such a hard on for a magazine fed weapon that had the magical capabilities of a belt fed they could suck Singapore's collective cock and buy the Ultimax or a variant of.

>>32668353
>>32667983
It needs to be piston, otherwise it's unsafe. DI is accurate and reliable, but will fuck you with cook-offs under sustained fire

>>32669549
This wouldn't be a problem had they stuck with the open bolt full auto.

>>32669549
Good thing the AR is not DI.

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>>32668948
But none exists and all designs so far have been too long.

>>32669052
Magpul came out with their own pouch. We may see others once they get more popular.

>>32669326
Nobody submitted a side feeder likely because the point was to keep the same manual of arms and a difficulty in designing one that could feed from either side.

>>32669386
The SAWs mostly need replace due to age and use. I'd wager we'll see a belt fed SAW replacement. I wonder if there isn't still a holdout hoping we change to a larger intermediate caliber. If so a modular belt fed may be a solid future option. MGA does it with their Mk48.

>>32668955
>>32668983
I think the real point is that you can fit a larger drum under an AK-style rifle without impacting ground clearance.

AR drums also mean giving up a bunch of capacity to dummy cartridges because you need something to push the last rounds up the magwell. That's not an issue/as much of an issue with an RPK or similar.

>>32667948
Becuase they are garbage anyway, it was meant for like quick bursts of fire at close range but its so high up you cant get a cheek weld and basically breeds bad shooting.

>>32668001
Ya thats one of the problems, however they do use 30rnd mags. They get issued 22 mags If i remember correctly. A combat load is usually 6 atleast for us it was (for non gunner type).

>>32669447
The idea is Machien gunners could attach to your squad and be that fire element for you.

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>>32670609
Are you retarded. Your form must be all fucked up for you to not get cheak weld. Or youre a giraffe.

>>32670832
Cheek weld on the SDO is fine, but im talking about the RMR above the SDO, and if your sitting here telling me that, youve never had that issue or heard of that issue, and your issued a m27, then idk what to tell you man.

>>32670984
Oh the gay red dot thing ya fuck those. Waste of money.

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>>32667939

Here's the .pdf from one of the field tests they did in 2011.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2014armaments/Wed16533_Shipley.pdf

By using both the lsat LMG and the appropriate ammo, they shaved off 21 pounds compared to the SAW with 1000 rds of ammo. That's a big difference. Word down the pipeline is that the army is screwing up the program by switching to a larger caliber, but whatever.