Shell Shock NAS3 casings

What is it made of? Some new metal alloy?

>>32601568
If all of those things were true they would be everywhere by now, never even heard of them.

I suspect their either have a major flaw or are far more expensive

>>32601600
just seems to be new

>>32601592
A stainless steel alloy with an aluminium base, if memory serves. Reportedly it springs back into shape even in unsupported chambers, and can handle +P and +P+ ammunition better than brass due to being supposedly 2x as strong.

>>32601600
It's a very new technology, but there are videos online, and they're also available for purchase however the companies that produce it do not actually make ammo. I think they sell the casings to a specific company who DOES load it into ammo, or you can buy it yourself and load it yourself.

>>32601600

yeah because every companies are just going to retool and buy the licensing.

the saving are for the reloader you fucktard

>>32601600
You havent been paying much attention then. But you can be forguven, since They released fairly recently and are only doing straight walled pistol carts for now. NATO rifle carts coming soon, that will be the interesting part.

>>32601639
I was saying that from a reloading perspective, fucktard

>>32601568
On the site, they have casings for the following prices in 9x19 (sadly, only 9x19 so far).

500: $60.00
1,000: $100.00
1,500: $150.00
10,000: $850.00

So the casings are going for between 12 cents a casing at the most expensive to 8.5 cents a casing at the cheapest. As mentioned, these casings can reportedly be reloaded 40 times. How many times can 9mm brass casings be reloaded? 20 times? If that?

>>32601568
>-50% lighter
less material means more prone to breaking, or less load options

>-30% cheaper
lets outsource to the cheapest bidder!

>-Reportedly can be reloaded 40 times (with 9mm at least)
"reportedly"

>-Cool to the touch upon ejection
which means it doesnt act as a heat sink, making the gun hotter and more prone to wear

>-Less friction, making loading mags easier, chambering smoother, and extraction easier
your mom has less friction

>-Base of the casing can be coloured (superior system than painting the bullet?)
ooh, can i have pink ones? i want all the fellas at the range to be jelly of my pink boolits

>>32601568
>30% cheaper

I think you mean 400% more expensive from the numbers on their site.

>>32601635
>Reportedly it springs back into shape even in unsupported chambers, and can handle +P and +P+ ammunition better than brass due to being supposedly 2x as strong.

brass obturates and provides gass sealing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obturation

is this ture of this new type of case too? a certain degree of malleability is necessary for ammo cases.

>>32601674
Nice memes faggot. If your head wasn't up your ass you'd have the answer to every point you made in addition to a video of the casing being fired to it's advertised service life without issue.

sure are a lot of shills in this thread trying to promote their snake oil

>>32601668
Here are the only negative aspects I can think of, and they're theoretical at best. I think we'll have to wait for Military testing before we find out if any of them are true, or even valid if they are.

1. Chambers potentially overheating more quickly.

If brass casings are hot upon ejection, then that means they've absorbed heat and taken it out of the chamber. If these NAS3 casings are cool to the touch upon ejection, then theoretically they have not absorbed any heat, meaning it's all left in the chamber. If this is the case, then if it's adopted, it might become common for soldiers to lock the bolt open or otherwise eject their chambered round to carry the rifle with an empty chamber after having shot a great deal. AR/M4/M16 can be carried with the bolt open at the dust cover closed, as I recall, so this seems like a very simple and acceptable issue that can be fixed with just a bit of simple training. Another issue though; if the casing doesn't absorb heat, then does it allow the heat of the chamber to pass right through to heat up the powder thereby making cook-offs easier, or, does it help to protect the powder from the heat to prevent cook-offs from happening as quickly as with brass? Again; this is all theoretical.

2. Aluminium rims wearing out more quickly?

Since it can be reloaded and fired 40 times (reportedly), it would seem this is a non-issue.

3. Due to being a 2-part casing, what if the rim and the body of the casing separate?

Again, if it can be reloaded and fired 40 times (reportedly), then it would seem this REALLY isn't an issue. However, Military testing will surely see just what it takes to separate the two. As long as it won't break apart upon being stomped on real fucking hard, and similarly as long as the aluminium rim doesn't become disformed by being stomped on real fucking hard, then I imagine this issue will be dropped quickly to focus on the aspect of chamber overheating and ammo cook-off.

>>32601693
See
>>32601668

So you can get brass casings for, what, 2 cents each? If that's the case, why is it that brass casings are the most expensive part of a cartridge?

>>32601732
the idea that reloading is a factor for the military is laughable. the russian churn out bns of cheap steel cased ammo and that's how you want to do it. economy of scale.

No issues with the aluminum? Didn't the army have to put some kind of plastic inside the case when they were testing the 6mm SAW aluminum?

>>32601710
Anything that decreases logistical footprint is an increase in capability. Shitposting about it won't change the fact that brass cased ammo will be obsolete within the near future regardless of whether or not this gets accepted commercially.

>>32601693
>>32601758
On Midway USA for Staline brass...

500 brass casings 9mm: $70.99 (10% off; save $8.00)

1000 brass casings 9mm: $134.99 (10% off, save $15.00)

So that's 15% cheaper ($11.00) for the 500 batch, however keep in mind you can reportedly reload it 40 times (it IS made of stainless steel alloy, after all) and 26% cheaper ($35.00) for the 1000 batch. Considering you'd have to buy new brass casings much sooner than you'd have to buy new NAS3 casings, I'd say it's even higher savings than that in the long run. If you crank it up to 10,000 casing batches, then the savings are even greater, definitely reaching and likely exceeding the 30% savings number (without even considering the long-term aspect of casing replacement once you've reloaded it as many times as possible).

I think that one day, brass casings will be left for Cowboy Action Shooting, and hipsters who want to use old-school and more expensive brass cased ammo just to see what it was like for people back when it was the standard. I also think that our children/grandchildren will be interested in shooting brass cased ammo someday just to see if it's really as hot as they say once it ejects, meanwhile the standard NAS3 that's basically used everywhere ejects cool to the touch.

>>32601568
did you forget /k/ violently hates new things?

*unless it's a russian gun we've only seen pictures of and can't possibly have.

>>32601769
Indeed, reloading for the Military is laughable, but not for civilian reloaders. I've got both Military and civilian applications in mind, and I really think this new casing will become the biggest thing for ammo since smokeless powder. In short, the biggest advancement in ammo in 131 years.

>>32601802
It's cheaper, it can handle higher pressures, it improves reliability due to stripping rounds of mags as well as extracting from chambers (especially dirty chambers), and it's much lighter which can decrease loadout weight by potentially 2lb+, or can be replaced by 1-2 mags to let soldiers carry more ammo for the same weight.

>>32601802
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Go peddle your snake oil elsewhere or buy an ad.

>>32601878
>everyone interesting in the advancement of small arms is a shill because I have an irrational dislike of a product I've never tried
moron

>>32601568
>when will this stuff become more common than brass?
once the company branches out into rifle rounds and the manufacturing process is shown to be not complicated at all.

from a reloading or even specialty ammo aspect this is more than efficient, its practically modular, no need to cut and resize expensive boutique brass you get a steel tube to spec, and an appropriate size case head and you can reload whatever you want.
>provided this design can even handle repeated 75k psi ultramag loads

>>32601878
how about you and your dumbass Wrong!(TM) memeing fuck off. there are mature assholes discussing the pros and cons of a new technology. youre probably the same loser fuckstick that continually posts 'Sad!' without any fucking context in any thread related to liberals

>>32601568
Polymer cases?

>>32601878
I don't think brass casings will become obsolete, per se (they can still be used for those who, for some odd reason, might prefer them), but provided the three theoretical negatives turn out to be non-issues, it's easy to see NAS3 casings being adopted worldwide by Nato nations, and if Russia and China can figure it out, potentially they as well. As for the commercial market, I DEFINITELY see it becoming the go-to casings for reloaders due to their ability to be reloaded far more times than brass, especially with +P or +P+, and of course having lighter load-outs is always beneficial when it has little-to-no drawbacks. With pistol ammo, no, the weight savings aren't too great, but once intermediate and rifle casings become available, we're talking about substantial weight savings. The bigger the casing, the greater the weight saving.

.30-06 brass casings: 35 per pound (.029lb each, rounded to make it easier)
.30-06 NAS casings: 70 per pound (.015lb each, rounded to make it easier)
.22lb saved per 16 rounds

M2 .30-06 Ball in M1 Rifle en bloc clips:
2 loaded clips=1lb (roughly, for brass casings)
2 loaded clips=.78lb (roughly, for NAS3 casings)

>20 M1 Rifle en bloc clips (160 rounds M2 Ball .30-06)
Brass casing: 10lb
NAS3 casings: 7.8lb
>5 bakelite AKM mags with steel cased M43 (150 rounds, and lighter than brass cased 7.62x39)
8.25lb

>>32601872
Soldiers load got lighter? Cram another 2 pounds of margunally useful shit in. Just fuck our joints up. Seriously though if heat transfer to the reciever is not a problem this could be a good incremental advancement especially on linked rounds.

>>32602007
>.223 brass casings (can vary based on manufacturer)
73 per pound
.014 per round (rounded up to make it easier)
>.223 NAS3 casings (50% lighter than equivalent brass casings)
146 per pound
.007 per pound (rounded up to make it easier)

>0.21lb saved per 30 rounds.
>Loaded STANAG mag weighs about 1.1lb
>Loaded STANAG mag with NAS3 casings weighs about .9lb

>10 STANAG mags with standard .223 or 5.56 ammo
11lb
>10 STANAG mags with NAS3 .223 or 5.56
9lb
>12 STANAG mags with NAS3 .223 or 5.56
10.8lb

>Unloaded M4A1 assault rifle with 3.5x ACOG, foregrip, and flashlight
About 8lb, I figure
>Load with a mag of NAS3, and then give 11 spare
About 18.8lb with a grand total of 360 rounds

I would call that noteworthy, and nevermind the fact that the ammo would also be cheaper, provide improved feeding/extraction, and would be capable of handling higher pressures thus being less likely to rupture.

>Unloaded Russian AK-74 with PSO-1 scope
About 8.3lb
>Load with a bakelite mag of 7N6 with 8 spare
About 19.1lb with a grand total of 270 rounds

Now that's pretty incredible... slightly lighter, yet with almost 100 more rounds, and the AK-74 is quite a light firearm as well, as is bakelite AK-74 mags! It's thanks to the NAS3 casings that such a disparity can be possible.

>>32601600
>product is good, but has some limitations
>new product is announced, in small scale production
>promises to address some of the old products limitations at a lower cost
>hurr, durr, if it were better they'd already be using it
now, I'm skeptical to, but your line of reasoning is beyond stupid

>>32602168
It's about strategic airlift. That being said, I see this as more of a stopgap for nations not wanting to ditch 5.56/7.62 NATO quite yet. LSAT looks to be the way forward for the US, at least in the MG role.

>>32601732
>1. Chambers potentially overheating more quickly.
But isn't the heat transfered into the chamber walls via the casing? The barrel gets hot because of gas and friction but the chamber itself gets hot from the gas heating the casing.

>>32602869
I just figure if the casing isn't hot when ejected, it means that the heat has been left in the chamber. If it turns out that it somehow contains the heat until the shot is fired and somehow cools itself upon ejection without allowing heat (or at least not much) transfer to the chamber, then that would be another benefit, but I don't know. Heat is involved in the study of Chemistry, and I did fucking horribly at Chemistry. Really, I was just trying to rack my brain as best I could to come up with SOME negative aspects, and this is the best I can come up with. It's all theoretical, and we'll have to wait for Military testing to find out if those potential negative aspects are true, and if so, are they bad enough to be a deal breaker. I anticipate not.

>>32602807
Never heard of LSAT; what's that? I didn't know work was being done to replace the FN MAG as the M240 or the FN Minimi as the M249.

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>>32602925
Cased telescoping ammo LMG.

>>32602007
I doubt Russia will ever switch from berdan primed steel cased ammo.

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>being able to pick up cases with magnets

>>32601568
the engineer in me wishes for links

>>32602925
but the point is, how could the heat jump through the case wall to the chamber if the cases aren't heated?

it's not like the cases did get hot, but are then cooling instantly after ejection, right?

>>32603079
Never messed with steel cased ammo does that cool appreciably faster than its brass equivalent. ...... or does the heat go to the other metal in the cartridge as a heat sync leaving the case wall cool

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>>32603043
>post yfw Brass Magnets stop being a prank played on recruits

>>32601568
>Cool to touch when ejected

So does that mean the waste heat that normally is ejected with the case now stays in your chamber and barrel?

>>32603578
That's what we would all like to know. No info on that as of yet.

>>32601732
>If these NAS3 casings are cool to the touch upon ejection, then theoretically they have not absorbed any heat, meaning it's all left in the chamber
no, stupid, it goes down the barrel. the case insulates the chamber walls.

>>32603578
>what's that big-ass fireball coming out the muzzle? maybe FUCKING HEAT?!
how dumb are you shits for brains? if you insulate the chamber against the source of the heat, it doesn't make the heat "stay in the chamber" ffs. now I know you're just applying your lack of logic to what you've read on the detriments of caseless ammo, but newsflash: this isn't caseless ammo.

>>32603728
yeah and it's not like the chamber and the barrel are the same piece of conductive metal, oh wait. they are.

>>32601674
those are some seriously shit arguments.

>>32601568
All I see is about wieght and cost. How is accuracy with these cases compared to brass cases?

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Have to buy their custom sizing dies? I don't fucking think so Tim. I also certainly wouldn't trust reloading the same case 20 times let alone 40.

>>32603920
Probably not Lapua accurate, but how much really does case material and geometry affect accuracy?
Being that its a friction weld, with the case and/or head being spun against each other, it introduces a previously extraneous step that could make for an unaligned case and non-square case head

>>32604039
>could make for an unaligned case
Forgot to add
But its no more likely than a traditional case manufacturing

>>32603930
> Have to buy their custom sizing dies?
I doubt it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that dual sizing Redding dies either work with them or can be modded

>I also certainly wouldn't trust reloading the same case 20 times let alone 40
I've probably gotten 30 out of conventional brass and .45acp. strengthening the base like that, I can see 40, even at 9mm pressure.

>>32601568
>metal +25% critchance
>poison +5-20 poison damage, poisoned 1 (stacks) on crit
>cold -50% attack and movement speed on hit, frozen 1 on crit
>fire +4-12 fire damage, sets on fire on crit
>death -10 base HP to live creatures, check toughness or die on crit

>>32603117
>>32603079
>>32602925
Part of it is that steel and aluminum both have higher specific heats than brass. This means the metals of the NAS3 case can absorb more energy before heating up than a brass case can. Another part may be that the aluminum rim acts as a sink for the steel case wall because aluminum has nearly double the specific heat of most steel alloys.

>>32603794
Well done you. fucking armchair fudds don't even bother going to the fucking LGS to spread their fuddlore anymore.

>>32604124
>I doubt it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that dual sizing Redding dies either work with them or can be modded
It says on their site you need to use their dies because of the way the resizing die works but who the fuck knows

>I've probably gotten 30 out of conventional brass and .45acp. strengthening the base like that, I can see 40, even at 9mm pressure.

I mainly shoot hot magnum loads (.357, .44, .500, ect) so it is a Christmas miracle for my brass to make 6 reloads before splitting in the sizing die. I guess maybe if I didn't load everything to asshole pressures they might last a big longer.

>>32601568
>steel case
yeah, no thanks. I like my case to expand and act as a gas seal.

>>32601699
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obturation
That's the BULLET not the CASE you fucking mong

>>32604271
>That's the BULLET not the CASE you fucking mong
it is the case too. the case expands and seals the chamber towards the breech. that's why you need to resize and trim brass after it's been fired. lrn to guns before calling other people names.

>>32604271
his link was about the bullet but his argument about the case is still valid. cases do expand, creating a gas seal

>>32604295
>Only brass expands in the chamber
So why would this only be an issue for a partial steel case and not a completely steel case?

>>32604327
not him, but it is an issue for completely steel cases. that's why most steel case ammo is lower than standard pressure.

>>32604327
>So why would this only be an issue for a partial steel case and not a completely steel case?

it is. an AK fed with steel cased ammo has less of an backward gas seal than one fed with brass ammo. it's a know thing and a common point brought up against steel cased ammo. in practise though, the difference is negligible and steel cased ammo not less safe or anything.

>>32604295
>>32604314
All materials undergo deformation, in this case selecting the proper thickness would allow for the same level of deformation.

steel shrinks further away from the chamber walls after the pressure has left the barrel due to it's higher yield strength

I think that you 2 need to learn a little more about engineering before you talk shit. bitches

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>>32604155

>>32604384
>after the pressure has left the barrel
which returns at a higher pressure, steel or brass?

>>32603794
heat soak is an actual thing

Worthless

>>32601674
>Muh lowest bidder
I fucking hate hearing this shit.
The only time this shit holds is when the military actively chooses a cheaper option like when they picked Beretta over Sig (even then it was also political as well)
The lowest bidder to produce an item with the specifications set forth in the contract can not fuck it up or else they lose the contract. It will be the same fucking thing even if they went with someone who was charging more.
It also doesn't hold when the lower costing item is superior. It's not like the best option is always the most expensive fucktard
Kill youself

Can't fucking wait.
>year 2024
>Emporer Trump has allied with Russia
>powered exoskeleton space suits
>shooting armor piercing space boolits in my cold war era battle riFAL
>colonizing Mars and killing Chinese commies

>>32601600
First I saw these was over a year ago. A guy local to me manufactures them along with the RIP bullets. The whole point is for lighter carry, not going full retard.

Your lack of experience is meaningless.

>Cool to the touch upon ejection
so its not a heatsink at all? isnt that literally why caseless ammo is so hard to do, because the brass acts as a heat sink and stops your gun melting so fast?

>>32606423
read the tread you lazy nigger

>>32606462
not him but ive been following this thread all day and there is no definite explanation as to what happens to the heat, whether the case transfers it to the chamber, directs it down the barrel with all the other gas(lol), cools immdiately upon ejection, or just absorbs it through magic properties

>>32606510
See >>32604219

>>32606530
>absorb more energy before getting hot

thats...thats not how it works

>>32606530
see>>32606510
>or just absorbs it through magic properties

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>>32603728
Engineer here, this is correct, thermal conductivity of brass is 109 W/(m K) and steel is only 16W/(m K)

>>32606760
so does this mean that the brass actually acts as more of a heat transfer point than a heat sink?
as in brass casing moves more heat to the chamber than it retains?

>>32601568
>-Cool to the touch upon ejection
Isn't that a bad thing? You're not pulling any heat from the internals like that

>>32602925
>if the casing isn't hot when ejected, it means that the heat has been left in the chamber
or the same quantity of heat transfered but these NAS3 cases have a higher heat capacity

>>32606792
right, as the other poster stated, steel is acting as a better insulator then the brass, less heat energy will be able to make it into the steel casing, and even less will be transferred into the chamber walls.

that said, this is all pretty moot given that the overwhelming majority of barrel erosion and heating is the result of direct gas heating forward of the chamber and friction with the bullet. (this is why moly lubricated bullets don't heat barrels up as quickly as normal jacketed bullets, everything else being equal)

>>32606792
Yep. It's actually one of the major problems in the G11 and with all caseless firearms experiments. The brass casings that carry excess heat out of the receiver weren't there, so it got really hot and started cooking off rounds as soon as they were fed into the chamber.

ITT: heatsink heatsink heatsink

are you fuckers shooting a machine gun?
do any of you regularly overheat your guns?

no civilian shoots fast enough to need to worry about heat transfer or cookoffs

>>32606870
>that said, this is all pretty moot given that the overwhelming majority of barrel erosion and heating is the result of direct gas heating forward of the chamber and friction with the bullet

hadn't thought about the chamber throat, or even considered bullet coatings that does make this entire heat sink argument even more retarded. its not like this is about high rof caseless designs.

>>32606972
You would be really fucking surprised.

Let's talk 7.62. You'll put about 45 grains of powder in that thing. Each grain will release 240 J of energy on combustion. That's about 11 KJ per shot. About 3.5 KJ goes into the muzzle energy, leaving 7.5 KJ in other forms. Quite a bit of that goes down the barrel in the form of gas and heat, but if even 1 KJ (a bit under 10% of the initial energy release) remains in the receiver and you're firing at the fud mandated one shot every two seconds, that's 500 watts of heat right next to your hand. Ever touched a 60 W incandescent light-bulb?

>>32601674

>I buy 100 dollar t-shirts

>>32606972
>are you fuckers shooting a machine gun?
yes
>do any of you regularly overheat your guns?
yes

guess what. the kind of gun owner who can afford and wants a special snowflake case, probably puts a little bit of money into their hobby

>>32607130
>can afford a special snowflake case
except they're cheaper than brass
if you're that worried about it and actually have an MG, then buy brass

for your average shooter, the amount of heat lost from a heatsink isn't significant

>>32607144
i would, except, overheating. cant waste my money if my gun stops working

>>32601568
aluminum mag, steel mag, polymer mag

You're just saying 7.62 NATO mag in general

>>32602869
brass casings conduct a ton of heat and draw a lot from the chamber
brass cases will leave a cooler chamber than steel cases will

>>32601842
>buying new brass

it appears you don't reload, sonny

>>32601568
special snowflake ammo

>>32603930
That's my major hang up too. 100$ for the die kit is a no go.

Just because the case cab handle 75k doesn't mean I can load 9mm major +p+++ in my glock prolemsolva, right?
Unless the barrel and springs can take it, what else could fail?

Does the case have more capacity? I like the less depth for crimping needed, that alone is capacity...

>>32601674
>>which means it doesnt act as a heat sink, making the gun hotter and more prone to wear
no, "heat sink" is misnomer from caseless ammo discussion. The case is preventing heat from ever reaching the barrel, it's not pulling heat away from the barrel. The brass is heated immediately on firing and then transfers heat to the barrel. A more conductive case would INCREASE heat transfer to the barrel. Caseless ammo heats the chamber more because there is nothing between the powder and the chamber.

Don't believe me? Fire a bolt action and a semi auto of the same caliber. The brass from the bolt action will be cooler on ejection, the brass from the semi will be hotter, because the bolt action brass sat in the chamber long and transferred more heat to the barrel

>>32603073
You can find all kinds of stuff about NAS3 casings by Googling, and there's also lots of vids on Youtube.

>>32603079
I honestly don't know the science behind heat well, I just remember it being a part of the study of Chemistry in school. The whole 'overheating the chamber more quickly' is just a theoretical possibility. I really did just try to come up with whatever I can in terms of negatives but it's REALLY hard to figure anything out. There seems to be no DEFINITE negatives yet, perhaps because the technology is just too new. I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on. My gut is telling me that this'll become standard though except for perhaps .22lr, Cowboy Action Shooting, and perhaps stuff like magnum/anti-material cartridges because I don't know if these casings can handle those types of pressures. It claims to be 2x as tough though, so it probably is strong enough to handle it. .50 BMG will be FAR lighter with those casings in that case. Right now, as-is, .50 BMG is about 4 rounds per pound. Perhaps with those casings, it'll be 5 rounds per pound, or 6. Not a HUGE difference, but it'll allow troops to have lighter loadouts, or carry more ammo.

>>32603578
Like >>32603678 said; we don't know yet. Maybe these casings will overheat the chamber, or maybe they'll help contain the heat in the casing to potentially PREVENT overheating the chamber. We have to wait for Military testing to know, I think. Right now it's only in 9x19 though, and I don't know if you even CAN get a chamber hot enough to cook rounds off with 9x19.

>>32603794
You do realize that overheating chambers is a thing, right? If it wasn't, then all LMGs would be closed-bolt. The reason why most, if not all GPMG firearms are closed-bolt is so that you don't have around chambered unless it's immediately getting fired. Having closed-bolt would help with accuracy.

>>32603794
You're a most unpleasant individual... cartridge cook-offs is a thing.

>>32601568
bump for interest

>>32610753
this

overheating of the chamber is a consideration, but the perpetual K debate about caseless rifles has exagurated it's importance

like this anon says, overheating is hardly going to be an issue in 9x19 unless you have an UZI

>>32609874
I'm curious about that; if you've got a 9mm pistol (or perhaps revolver) that can handle high pressures, then with these casings that can handle 2x the pressure of brass, could you make some of that funky Russian-style 9x19 that's so over-pressure that it's nearing .357 ballistics? I imagine so. God, I'd love to get that one revolver that can take 9x19, .38 Special, .357, probably .380, maybe 9x18, and so on and so forth. Very cool, but if memory serves you can't use 9x18 in 9x19 firearms so that one is probably a no-go. What a nifty firearm though. So many common cartridges available, it'd be an amazing SHTF side-arm. Find a pistol or revolver cartridge with 9mm bullets? You can probably shoot it.

>>32609737
I don't know if it's special snowflake ammo if it's cheaper than what you can already buy. I think in 5-10 years time, brass casings will be the special snowflake ammo that pretty much only Cowboy Action Shooters, .22lr plinkers, and hipsters use. HAH! Imagine; 100+ years from now, people digging up land for construction purposes or excavating for whatever reason. Come across brass casings scattered about. "Well, it was obviously from before 2020 because they have Military markings on the back, from those that are legible, so this must have either been an old shooting range for training, or potentially an ancient battlefield. These casings haven't been produced Militarily since the late 2010s, and by the early 2020s it had pretty much been completely replaced by the modern NAS3 that we all use today in the year of our Lord 2117. All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!"

>>32610789
When thinking about overheating chambers, I'm mostly thinking of Military applications where people are more likely to shoot a lot of ammo in a relatively short amount of time if things go sideways. It can be fixed though; once the action is over, soldiers can be instructed to lock the bolt open and put on the dust cover, or remove the mag, unchamber the cartridge, let the bolt drop on an empty chamber, and put the mag back in. I figure the more likely option is to leave the bolt open with the dust cover closed, because then to strip a round off, all you need to do is hit the bolt release to get back into action quickly should you have to.

In fact, I think this ammo is potentially good enough to where the next generation of assault rifles will have that FG-42 style of bolt where you can use it in semi-auto with closed bolt, or full-auto with open bolt. Even if overheating the chamber is an issue (though we don't yet know), I think there's enough benefits to where adopting firearms like that in the future is an acceptable option. Lighter ammo, cheaper ammo, tougher, more reliable due to less friction, and the only cost is that the chamber MIGHT overheat a BIT more quickly? Worth it; bring on the FG-42 style select fire mechanism. Interesting long-term effects, no?

Does the company that makes the casings own a patent on it?

If so, don't expect to see much of it on a shelf for a long, long time.

>>32601568
>cool to the touch upon ejection
I guess the barrel is fucked then

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>>32610813
interesting indeed

I don't think anyone fires 9mm at enough RPM for heat to be an issue, even automatics in that caliber arn't designed for sustained fire or prolonged engagement

I wonder if it will be sold as reloading kit, or if they will try to spruic it as some wonder ammo to sell it pre-loaded and make more money

perhaps the weight/cost saving won't be significant enough for it to break ground commercially,
but the army might adopt it so they could save brass in a real war; or just because it's half a cent cheaper

I've worked with a bit of metal and I wonder if the hardness of a nickle alloy could cause issues

but 10c a case?

>>32602807
I wonder how compressing air into the chamber around their fancy caseless ammo would work for mitigating the chamber overheating?

>>32601799
burn through is an issue with the thing walls of aluminum cases but not with the base, this ammo is only aluminum on the base

>>32610986
*thin walls

>>32601872
Stop shilling so hard. If it's as good as you say it'll take the market, otherwise no. There's no point getting all excited.

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>>32610892
depends how much time it has. An open bolt gun I can imagine it cooling enough, but a closed bolt wouldn't have enough flow time between shots to a significant amount of cooling. Unless there was an airflow input near the chamber that closed while firing but that's getting even less practical

>>32610889
I think it's stainless steel alloy, not nickle, and they mention 'springing back to shape' after firing, even in unsupported chambers, so it seems to still fire-form, but is more reliable in returning to its original shape rather than permanently fire forming like brass. Not sure if you'd have to re-neck the casing after every shot, maybe, but something tells me it won't be as necessary as normal brass. That's just speculation though of course. But yeah, for the chamber issue that's mostly thinking about when they make it available for 5.56 or 7.62 Nato. But man, the weight savings is incredible when talking about cartridges with big casings. With pistol ammo, the bullet is generally going to be the heaviest component, but with larger ammo, the casing becomes the heaviest component. There-fore, to cut that weight in half, you're saving a substantial amount of weight.

>>32611005
Believe me, if I were one of the dudes that came up with this stuff, I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to shill it on fucking /k/. I'd be sitting back and letting it do its thing, because the way I see it, it's inevitable that people will be taking notice. If I wanted to shill, I'd send some of the ammo to people like Hickok45, the Military Arms Channel, and what not. IraqVeteran8888 for SURE because he seems to enjoy doing meltdown vids, and so would probably be more than happy to take a thousand rounds of ammo to burn through.

I see this NAS3 stuff as the most fascinating development in ammo since Spitzer bullets which came out around the late 1800s as I recall, first used Militarily with the M1886 Lebel aruond probably the 1890s. Fairly certain they started out with FMJ round-nosed bullets. So yeah, I see reason to get excited and talk about it with like-minded fellows who are also very much into firearms and ammo. If I was going to shill anything, it'd be one of my novels.

>>32611023
If chamber heat is an issue, I can see future assault rifles having FG-42 style controls, though perhaps instead of closed bolt for semi auto and open bolt for full auto, it might have a switch for open/closed bolt, just like for semi/full auto or semi/burst. Sort of like the magazine disconnect back in the late 1800s and early 1900s; engage it to load one round at a time, or disengage it to access the mag. In this case, engage the bolt-opener (I have no fucking idea what it'll be called) to fire in open-bolt, perhaps after X-amount of mags, and then disengage it once the firearm has cooled down sufficiently. Carry the firearm loaded with the bolt closed, shoot shoot shoot, engage the 'bolt-opener' or whatever, and then use it in open-bolt. Seems reasonable to me. In the meantime, carry with a round chambered, and once the shooting is over either leave the rifle with the bolt locked open or carry it without a round chambered.

This is all based on chamber overheating being an issue. It may very well turn out that this casing, somehow, actually helps PREVENT chamber overheating, or at least doesn't lead to it as quickly as brass. Like I said, we'll have to wait until Military testing, but I think there's enough benefits to this type of casing to where it's acceptable to make small changes to training, and make considerations for future firearms that, before NAS3, would have seemed odd.

Do we know how much more pressure it handles? Could allow for lighter bolts in straight blowback guns, and other improvements to delayed blowbacks.

>>32611189
Apparently it can handle 2x the pressure of brass casings. The thing I'm most looking forward to is the lowering of ammo cost. Brass is the most expensive component of ammo as I recall, so making it cheaper will make ammo in general cheaper.

>>32609627
Only rifle rounds, admittedly.

>>32611207
Jesus, twice the strength? Wouldn't that mean you could essentially have half the bolt weight in a straight blowback gun?

>>32611063
I get it. But you really do seem to be getting overexcited about stuff that was originally developed for aircraft autocannons in the sixties and seventies (if I can find the DTIC link for the PDF I'm thinking of I'll post it). Frankly I think CT is a larger step forward as it offers greater advantages.
But we shall wait and see.

>>32611243
Nope. Bolt weight is there to keep the case in the chamber so it's supported. Without the mass the case will fly out of the chamber and burst from overpressure- the case can't handle the pressure without the chamber supporting it.

>>32611243
I don't think so. Lightening a bolt in a blowback firearm would promote a higher rate of fire, not to mention the firearm also beating itself up from the inside. Not ideal. Higher pressure ammo would mean, if anything, a heavier bolt and heavier springs. At least, that's my understanding.

>>32611251
Woahhhhhh there buddy. You're throwing around terms that are flying RIGHT over my head. So this type of casing (or I guess in this case, hull or shell), was used in aircraft autocannons in the 60s/70s? As for DTIC and CT, you've lost me. All I know is this seems like the biggest advancement in small arms ammunition in about 130 years or so. Sure there was .223/5.56 in the 50s, which showed the world the value of small-calibre/high-velocity ammo that is incredibly light, with very mild recoil, yet very impressive accuracy, but that's not new technology. Still brass casings, still primers, still smokeless powder, and still Spitzer FMJ bullets. For lack of a less insulting term; same shit, different pile, but of course modern brass-cased ammunition and .223/5.56 is FAR from shit. It's just the term is fitting if you look past the insulting nature of it.

>>32611254
Yeah there's a lot to do with making sure the round is still chambered until the pressures have dropped, but if you make the bolt too lighter it may very well cause damage to the firearm. Why do you think the slide on the Hi Point is so big? They need the weight in order to handle the recoil of the 9mm/.40/.45 ammo in a blow-back design. If the firearm is sturdy enough to withstand the abuse of the bolt BASHING back against the receiver over and over due to the lighter slide, then theoretically, yeah, I guess it could work provided the casing doesn't kerplode or deform from leaving the chamber while still under high pressure. I'm dubious though, and doubt these casings are that sturdy. Best not lighten bolts on blowback firearms too much, I don't think. Dangerous stuff.

>>32611308
>Dangerous stuff
That's why we have these people called engineers. They have successfully prevented every popular gun design in existence from blowing up in normal use.

If they made the dies like $40 or made an adapter you could put on already purchased dies, I'd buy this shit in a heartbeat to reload. Even just getting 15 out of the proclaimed 40 reloads would make the casing cost essentially negligible conpared to the bullet head or primers.

$100 is way too expensive for dies, you're not going to sell people on buying these cool new cases if they are gonna have to rebuy all the dies they already own.

>>32611357
Having a light bolt in a blowback design for ammo as potent as 9mm/.40/.45 isn't normal use. Lighten the bolt, you'll increase the recoil, and the casing might begin leaving the chamber before pressures have sufficiently dropped. Relying on this new casing, even if it's twice as tough as brass, doesn't sound like a particularly safe decision. If you want a light bolt, you need a locked-breech design, or whatever it would be called. Roller-delayed blowback at least, or some other type of delayed blowback, but straight-blowback? Sketchy stuff when talking about the 'big three' of pistol cartridges.

Anyways, we'll see. Maybe you're right, and by the time the bolt starts moving back, even though there's still pressure in the firearm, it'll be low enough to where this new casing can handle it. I don't think you'll save too much weight though, but the rate of fire will be increased quite a bit.

>>32601668
>how many times can 9mm brass casings be reloaded? 20 times? If that?
I have a batch of match brass (it's really just plain old Rem UMC that I keep segregated) that have over 150 reloads on them. Can hardly read the headstamp any more, but case integrity is fine.

I have .45acp brass that belonged to my grandfather, I'd hate to guess how many hundreds of reloads they've gone through. I've personally put probably 400 on them and you couldn't read the headstamp when I got them.

As long as you keep the pressures within listed norms (IE, no +P+ loads) straight-wall pistol brass lasts basically forever.

>>32611207
>Brass is the most expensive component of ammo as I recall
In pistol rounds it's usually the bullet, even assuming you're using factory-new brass every single time. 9-20 cents per bullet vs 3.5-8 cents for new Starline brass.

Hell any more primers cost as much as new Starline 9mm brass.

>>32611908
>>32611940
I guess it's starting to blatantly show that the only thing I reload is rifle ammo. Specifically .303 for my Lee Enfields and .30-06 for my M1 Rifle. Well, I used to anyways.

>>32611308
I'll explain one bit at a time.
The dual-material case was developed for use in aircraft autocannon in the 60s/70s (still haven't found the PDF), But was ultimately discarded in favor of all-aluminum cases.
DTIC= defense technical information center, a massive online library of defense-related PDFs, most of them scans of ex-classified documents. There is at least one there which is relevant to the subject at hand, if I can find it.
CT is case telescoped, with a case made entirely of polymer. This has been in development since the 60s as well, but is now at the stage where it might be adopted soon by the US army. It offers even lighter cases than the stuff at hand.
You seem to be really excited about this, when it isn't all that new- for 9mm there are also all-aluminum cases.
The slide on the Hi point is big because it's a direct-blowback, and you need mass to keep the bolt closed until pressures have dropped. In most pistols, you have Browning short recoil, so the chamber remains closed for a long time and the slide can be made very light.
There is no damage in a competently designed firearm from the slide bottoming out in the reciever. And making it lighter would not result in greater damage to the reciever from bottoming out, much the opposite. As I have said, the reason for bolt weight in a blowback gun is to keep the case in the chamber while pressures are still high, as the case cannot take the pressure unsupported.
I strongly suggest you do some research on the subject matter.

>>32612018
All good, brass life in rifles can vary a lot too.

For example, you get a super tight chambered match rifle, brass stretches very little because it has nowhere to go, and thus lasts a long time. But in something like a modern semiauto, chambers are looser (close to or at maximum SAAMI spec) to promote reliability across a wide range of factory ammo that may or may not have great QC, and brass stretches a lot and doesn't last very long.

My .22 PPC with what's basically a fully custom ultra-tight-necked chamber basically doesn't change brass dimensions at all. I neck size in a Wilson hand tool which requires very little effort. I'm still using my original batch of brass from the 80's, which was fireformed .220 Russian brass from Lapua, and most of them have 30+ loads on them. Meanwhile I get at most 7-8 loads out of my 5.56 because of SAAMI-spec chambers in my AR's, and if I don't anneal every other loading I won't even get that.

I will say I'm VERY interested in these new cases for things like 5.56 and .308, as long as they don't screw with the accuracy potential.

>>32612128
They mentioned something like only .9 MOA deviation or some such thing, I dunno, I'm probably getting the stats wrong, but they did mention that accuracy deviation is supposedly minimal. I'm having a few drinks.

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>>32612310
If it really is 0.9 MOA deviation, that's...pretty bad. At least for a tech demonstrator with lots and lots of QC and small batch development.

This is handloads in my AR.

>>32604271
> "More importantly, "obturation" refers to the action of a soft metallic cartridge case being pressed outwards against the chamber walls by the high pressure of the internal gases."

L2READ.

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>>32612330
I dunno, maybe it's .09 deviation. I seen it in one pic and it was a couple days ago, I didn't put it to memory.

AHA! Found the pic; .9 ft/s deviation. That sounds better.

>>32601568

these shits should be used in M249 SAWs

maybe then they wont fucking blow up

>>32612836
Why do M249s blow up?

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>100 USD

Still expensive, but not 100 bucks expensive

>>32612888
Once it's available in larger cartridges, like intermediate and rifle, it'll be worth $100 in the long run, or in this case, $85. Between the casings being cheaper and being able to be reloaded more times, unless you're like 70 years old and don't get to shoot much, you'll ultimately be saving money.

>>32613519
>like 70 years old and don't get to shoot much
eh, old people are the only ones with time and money to shoot as much as they like

>>32615150
>old people
>with time
I've got some news for you anon...

>>32615185
well if you didnt live someplace that sucked youd see them out and about. they are all over the coast and southwest

they have the coolest toys, best stories and a few know some good tips

>>32615304
well youre right about one thing, im in cascadia
the coolest shit Ive seen them with is one old guy that can barely walk gas up his GT-R, and a not as old looking guy do grocery runs with an Acura NSX

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ummm I'll just keep picking up brass off the ground for free... thanks though...