Two-tiered military culture

Women should not be able to be in the military.

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>>32590167
>women are unqualified to do aviation work

There are people like that who work for the military.

They're called "civilians".

>>32590152
In war, there may be a time when these excel "warriors" may be pushed into front-line service (god fucking forbid). There is a reason they get mocked, and there is a reason why they are held to the same fitness standards. Fuck off, pogue. Saged.

>>32590152
Any idiot that can fog a mirror can use excel. It's like the prerequisite for any non-retail/fast food job in USA.

>>32590152
You are describing the air force. While there are nerd jobs in all branches, the air force has by far the most desk jobs per capita. They also get paid more in terms of living standards and shorter/less frequent deployments.

>>32590317
This is also true. Most of the bullshit jobs in the military are for this exact purpose. During times of war, the military needs bodies. This is why we require the same level of physical fitness and other soldier skills from everyone, even people who signed up to play solitaire in an office for 4 years.

It happened in Iraq. There was a whole company of guys who did some bio medical machine shit who thought they were going to stuff pillows in a doctors office. The type of nerdy faggots who think they are smarter than everyone else and laugh at people who go to the field or the range. What did they do? Convoys. Every day. And the infantry guys made them cry daily too. It was hilarious.

>>32590558
Kek

>>32590558
make them cry? what did they do twist their nipples?

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>>32590152
>Thoughts?

ALL MUHREENZ ARE RIFLEMEN FIRST!

>>32590558
>This is also true. Most of the bullshit jobs in the military are for this exact purpose. During times of war, the military needs bodies. This is why we require the same level of physical fitness and other soldier skills from everyone, even people who signed up to play solitaire in an office for 4 years.
>It happened in Iraq. There was a whole company of guys who did some bio medical machine shit who thought they were going to stuff pillows in a doctors office. The type of nerdy faggots who think they are smarter than everyone else and laugh at people who go to the field or the range. What did they do? Convoys. Every day.

That shit is wholely to blame on their command. If they weren't properly trained for their convoy job, it's not necessarily their fault.
You will always need logisticians and command personnel behind a desk somewhere, pouring over excel sheets & maps to keep things running.

The fact so many military jobs were outsourced (at huge cost) to Halliburton & co proves that you could easily two-tier the current military desu.

>>32590590
If you've ever seen a pog actually made to do anything strenuous or military related, other than getting to shoot at a range, you'd understand. They'd attach pogs to us for training exercises and it was always a shit show. I remember one guy wouldn't even pull out his bivvy or sleeping bag, just slept in the dirt. Another guy couldn't lift his ilbe onto his back. He'd lay down, strap it to his back, roll over and do a push-up to be able to stand with a ruck. Some sad shit.

Also, nothing funnier than sitting in the shit as Infantry and hearing a guy go, "why'd I join open contract, I didn't think they'd make me a grunt".

>>32590634
>pic
what the fuck is with the tilt of that holster? So you hit yourself in the face to draw your side arm to show the enemy that you're committed??

>>32590152
Yea, I think you're a fucking pog.

>>32590152
That would be pretty cool. I'm medically disqualified for military service because I have scoliosis but I would still like to serve my country. I could do things like scientific research or Inelegance with no issue if they'd let me.

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>>32590738
>Inelegance

Clearly the only thing you'd be suited for.

Why don't you think people can be smart and strong?

>>32590738
...just work for DoD/DHS as a civilian
TSA is hiring if you want to do something like that

>>32590746
Oh fuck off my phones autocorrect is retarded.

>>32590750
This. We're fucking human beings. We're the dominant species on this planet and essentially top of the food chain. We've out-muscled and have out-smarted everything creature we've come acrossed. We can be strong AND intelligent.

>>32590634
Doing convoys is simple. The infantry guys run the gun trucks and do most of the shooting. You sit there sweating your ass off and prey you don't blow up. Its like that for alot of jobs. Guard duty, KP, garbage detail, haji guard... All no skill pain in the ass jobs that have to get done by somebody. And that somebody is usually someone that signed up for a bullshit office job. That's what I mean when I say the military needs bodies.

And the PMC thing. I'm not going to defend the private people that were there. Yes there were alot of PMC contracts that were total boondoggles. And the Blackwater guys were there to do jobs that the military doesn't to do, like bodyguard other civilians.

But most of the private people there were like cooks and cleaners from India and they were a fucking bargain. There is noone in the US that would go to Iraq and do what they did for that little money. Sure Dick Cheney's brother's uncle's nephew that actually owned the company walked away with millions, but forming a two-tier military is never going to stop shit like that from happening.

>>32590209
They really are. Women tend to have deficient spatial reasoning skills compared to men.

>>32590152
you might as well hire civilians with fitness and marksmanship requirements at that point

also
>excel being a certifiable pay-jump
top jej

>>32590590
What do you do for a living? What if your boss came in tomorrow and told you that you were going to Iraq to do convoys? Then you get there and its stressful and depressing as fuck. No more 4chan or mommys tendies. 120 heat every day. Wearing body armor 24/7 and your body is falling apart because you didn't train for this. The high point of your day is fapping in a shit smelling fly covered porta potty while sucking on a loaded M4.

Then, on top of that, some infantry guy is yelling in your face everyday calling you a piece of shit because you aren't a real soldier and he hates the idea of having to trust his life to a faggot nerd like you. Yes I've seen grown ass men break down crying like little fucking girls. Its pretty hilarious.

>>32590152

former pog here, let me shed light on why pogs and grunt dont mix

i had to work 10-14 hours a day in garrison, not even deployed yet, sometimes on the weekends and sometimes on 4-days due to logistics incompetency and being understaffed. Working general logistics was monotonous, shitty, autonomous and repetitive day in and day out and i absolutely fucking hated the shit, there is not a more degrading job than being a paper-pushing soul-less office chimp that has to put up with at least bare minimum 120 people's shit on a daily basis, maybe 700 different faces a month all complaining about their stupid fucking 5988s or paperwork not being updated. I literally could not give a mega ultra-cunt-fuck of a shit less if your paperwork is not updated as long as the fucking piece of equipment works, but no you just got to keep on fucking asking me about the shit despite the fact that maybe i have 7 to 9 other companies worth of shit to deal with ranging from medical equipment, weapons, vehicles, personal equipment and a whole other laundry list of shit just by myself with like 2 other fuckers that had appointments every other day, so fuck getting time off and a full lunch that shit just goes out the window

there was the job stress of me fucking up the numbers, in which i do not report to the 1sgt or the commanding officer if said numbers get fucked. I instead report straight to the battalion or brigade commander regardless of rank, so now i got to listen to soccer moms bitch and whine about how its my fault the army pays retail on all of its shit and that it's physically fucking impossible to get an accurate dollar amount on pieces of metal that are dormant and rusted in connexes and serve no purpose to the military to any capacity

between estrogen filled landwhales with infants that should be murdered in the womb and dumbass kids fucking up vehicles and making my job harder, i just could give a fuck about anything infantry at all

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>>32590977

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>>32590152
>mutual respect between grunts and pogs
Haha. Never going to fuckin happen. Infantry don't really bag on POGs until they pull shit like this. It's the same thing as when airsofters start thinking they can run with real operators because of all their "Tactical Experience", but can't run a sub-15 minute two mile.

Infantry don't mock POGs because of some wounded pride, we mock POGs because we honestly have no respect for you and disdain you utterly and completely for even considering your REMF administrative job of failing to fill out paperwork correctly remotely equal.

My stepsister is an E-9 in the AF doing some secret squirrel shit and had to re-qual on weapons in full battle rattle + CBRN gear and bitched about how difficult it was for literal months, frequently describing it as one of the harshest things she's ever had to do.

Infantry and POGs don't even live in the same world as far as what they do, if anything, the POGs should have more combat preparedness training. Never know when they're going to be the next Hagaru-ri.

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>>32590977
>joins the military
>picks office bitch out of the 100s of jobs available
>"I hate paperwork. Fuck you guys."

My sides. What the fuck were you thinking?

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>>32590558
>It happened in Iraq. There was a whole company of guys who did some bio medical machine shit who thought they were going to stuff pillows in a doctors office. The type of nerdy faggots who think they are smarter than everyone else and laugh at people who go to the field or the range. What did they do? Convoys. Every day. And the infantry guys made them cry daily too. It was hilarious.

>>32590152
Not in the military, but what would you blokes think of this girl I know?

>25 year old mexican female
>overweight, not morbidly so
>joined military for GI bill and easy home loan for her entire family to live in
>was a secretary for high ranking officers on FOBs and base her entire career
>now shows up at all sorts of veterans events in our area
Personally if I was infantry or someone of actual relevance I would have trouble not kicking their shit in. Should pogs and reservists even be allowed to call themselves veterans? I think if I joined and never saw action I wouldn't even bring up military service to anyone unless if I wanted a discount on something.

>>32591236

my first job choice was 19k, second 19d, and then 11b as my last pick

i just wanted to ride in a tank and shoot machineguns, i honestly didnt give a shit about fuck else in the army at all. i shammed so much on the admin job that i could probably be called a shitbag welfare queen cause most of the time i was drunk at work and popping oxycontin just to cope with the reality that i was stuck in an endless nightmare of soccer mom politics

the only thing i got out of this experience is that on my resume it says i saved the federal government 2.1 million dollars over the course of 3 & 1/2 years written with some other 'good on paper' liberal malarkey, which pretty much guarantees me a job in any shitty establishment of my choosing

one thing i hated about being a pog though, definitely not as many guys to count on in a pinch. no unit cohesion, people are fucked up, some dudes i am convinced would legitimately leave me to bleed out and die if we did get into some shit out in the desert, which is not a good feeling.

>>32590152
>The excel guy could get paid more (because his skills are worth more),
>his skills are worth more
> worth more

What about no and fuck off?

>>32590941
>The high point of your day is fapping in a shit smelling fly covered porta potty while sucking on a loaded M4.

TOP KEK

>>32591798
Well it's true. High skilled individuals are worth more money, and the entire military has a huge retention problem with these individuals because they can just go make more money on the outside.

Not that I necessarily agree with paying them more.

>>32591315
Mind your business

>>32591315
>>32592114
To add on, why gives a fuck?

Like if that really bothers you I don't know what to say.

How many people in the mil every see action? Like isn't it fucking 5% or something?

So I'll say again, who the fuck do you even care?

>>32590839
You don't need spacial reasoning for anything but piloting. Pilots are <1% of aviation personnel.

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>>32591315
A lot of that veteran hooplah is like high school reunions.

You gonna be "That Fuckin Guy" who tries to show off at a HS reunion? No? Then are you gonna be "That Fuckin Guy" who talks about how you earned your CAB when your convoy took fire in the same place as another convoy that actually had to medevac a guy the week prior? TOTALLY A KNOWN HOSTILE DANGER ZONE, I WAS SO SCARED BUT I REMEMBERED MY TRAINING AND KEPT DRIVING! EIGHTY-EIGHT MIKES DRIVING ALL THE WAY HOOAH!

Fuck no. You find the local foreign legion bar that's lead by the chill-as-fuck vietnam-era SF legit badass dude and talk about civilian life over the cheap drinks. Get drunk on a budget every once and a while and you peace out of there before 8pm when the ugly-ass cougars show up and start hitting on anything with a pulse and the aforementioned "That Guys" from Vietnam and Gulf91 show up.

>>32591315
>Personally if I was infantry or someone of actual relevance I would have trouble not kicking their shit in.
>was a secretary for high ranking officers on FOBs and base her entire career

Yes it sucks. But good luck talking shit to the colonel's personal secretary/fuck toy. Females, especially ones with connections, are completely coddled and sheltered. Its just the way it is.

And who the fuck goes to veterans events? Hanging out with old buddies is one thing. But hanging around with people I don't even know just because they are vets too sounds like the last thing I'd waste my free time doing.

>>32592099
>the entire military has a huge retention problem with these individuals because they can just go make more money on the outside

Well that's complete bullshit. Vet skills are pretty much worthless in the outside world. The only people that can get out and make more money are military contractors. And they do the exact same job they did when they were in working for Dynacorps or Raytheon ect.

Solving this would be as easy as revoking these contracts. They are only in place so that the owners can rape the government for easy money. Its a complete good ol' boy system designed to give people with connections more money.

The main reason "skilled" people get out of the military is because the military sucks. Being capable or smart gets you nowhere.

>>32592125
>How many people in the mil every see action? Like isn't it fucking 5% or something?

It's alot more than 5%. Well I guess that depends on your definition of 'seeing action' is.

>>32590152
So I kinda get why we still have officers and enlisted.

The enlisted do, the NCOs make it happen and the officers make sure the NCOs have what they need and also verify standards are enforced.

So there's that, now a lot of enlisted and NCOs aren't really that smart in a book sense and it doesn't always make sense to delay a person from being an officer just so they get the enlisted experience.

In short, I'm getting out because I want to be a person and I'm tired of working 16 hour days.

>>32590209
>>32590167
So I've worked with women who are, but they are the exception not the rule.

My personal belief is women should be pregnant and barefoot. But that's only because I love women.

>>32590977
>there is not a more degrading job than being a paper-pushing soul-less office chimp that has to put up with at least bare minimum 120 people's shit on a daily basis
dude I love you, but that ain't shit.

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>>32590817
Don't let that secret out lol.
My friend's dad was Army SF and he's the epitome of intellegent and in awesome physical shape. It'd be ridiculous to expect every infantryman to be like that, though.

>>32590152
The question is, why?

Why not just hire an excel guy that can also do the work of a soldirer? Its not like the fitness standards are beyond the abilities of the average highschool boy, anything ability they lack is quickly gained in boot camp

>>32591315
>Personally if I was infantry
>if I was infantry
>if
Opinion discarded.

>>32592404
>And who the fuck goes to veterans events?
>hanging around with people I don't even know just because
Yeah! fuck trying to meet people, make new friends, and socialize. It's not like having anything in common ever helped start a friendly conversation.

>>32590839
>womenparking.webm

>>32592576
—and yet, they wonder why the infantry makes fun of them.

>>32590690
>drawing your sidearm
literally why?
sidearms are a purely aesthetic piece of equipment.
officers carry them for the same reason they used to carry swords.
MPs carry them cause they need guns to police soldiers and assault rifles are overkill 99% of the time.
anybody else and it's a "why the fuck" type situation.

>>32592494
>The main reason "skilled" people get out of the military is because the military sucks. Being capable or smart gets you nowhere.
This is exactly what prompted the two tiered suggestion.
A highly rigid seniority system is important in a unit that will face combat. Office warriors do much better in a meritocracy.
A two tiered system would just institutionalize reality. Bridge the de facto system with the official one.

>>32590428
I highly doubt a bookkeeper and an engineer use Excel in the same way.
Not that I'd know what a bookkeeper does with Excel anyways.

>>32593988
>I have no idea what handguns are for

Lots of post require you be armed at all times.

Sidarms are amazing. It's a magical token that means you are armed without having to carry a rifle all over the fucking place.

>>32590152
Non-combat, stateside personnel should wear service uniforms (sans jacket depending on the weather) instead of utilities.

>>32590817

Love your optimism but we're strong and smart collectively, often because strong and smart people climb to the top of the hierarchy and tell all the below-average what to do and where to stand.

Individually there are plenty of morons and there's no fixing it.

>>32594045
You still have plenty of those skilled people in the cozy positions, its just that its hard for people to move up without politicking so they leave when their time is up

>>32594045
It goes back to my original statement. In times of war, the military needs bodies. People that have to go do shit they don't want to do. You can't take the 70% of the military that's non-combat related, and formed a new branch that treated them like civilians. If you hire a civilian for an easy desk job in the states and tried to send them to Iraq doing a shit job, they would quit. There will be noone left to do all the shit jobs that have to get done.

>>32594572
That's why you make a 2 tiered culture. They'd still be military, but held in different regard than combat arms. They would be certifiably different than combat arms, but still equal, and still military.
The state has the ability to compel any of its (male) citizens into military service. It doesn't matter what your job is. It doesn't matter whether you work for the military. They can send you to do the shit job.

>>32592927
>>32592404
>>32592341
>>32592114
>>32592125
By veteran's events I mean she's constantly showing me newspaper articles she's interviewed in and is the cultural liason for the hispanic community in her town or some bullshit. The interviews will always be worded to hide the fact that she was a secretary and often put her alongside WW2 pilots and Vietnam vets who actually saw combat. I guess it's because I knew a Navy guy who was an aircraft mechanic on a carrier in Desert Storm and whenever someone would thank him for his service, he would always downplay it and defer to the actual pilots and fighting men.

She's a bit of a selfish attention whore like most latinas I know so that factors in.

>>32594872
Dude stop worrying
Johnny Q Public sees a woman claiming military veterancy and he's already stopped listening

>>32594848
Why when you can just have one cohesive military?

>>32590152
I'd go with something more like a graduated scale. Some pog jobs are more useful in combat situations than others, like Security Forces, MPs etc.

>>32595135
Read OP

>>32590152

No. The military is not a corporation. The military is, at the base, I fighting man's game.

Take away the alive that a man can get paid equally to shoot guns compared to a guy in the same pay grade who had to go through associates-degree-esque training is what gives us a fighting force. The POGs get theirs in the end, they end up with both a GI bill and viable work experience.

>>32595215
Let me rephrase, how would this massive restructuring of the military actually improve its performance?

Would it be worth the cost when the system that's in place works?

>>32595362
>Would it be worth the cost when the system that's in place works?
Considering that the DOD is incapable of implementing a system in a cost conscious way that actually ever accomplishes the task it was intended; no, it would not be worth it. 99% of what the dod does is not worth it.

just because the dod , due to rampant waste and ineptitude , is incapable of pulling it off doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

>>32595135
Yeah sure, go look up the history of the Canadian armed forces, unifying all of their branches into one worked BRILLIANTLY for them.

>>32595453
Why is it a good idea, what benefit does it have to real world performance?

>>32595482
read OP you fucking retard

>>32590977
>he's never had to sweep a dirt floor
>he's never had to wipe a grown man's ass before he got medevac'd

>>32595512
The op only describes how the military will lose physically fit personnel that could fill in where and when needed

How does reducing the requirements and restricting large portions of the military to desk duty make it better?

>>32590152
>I'm an entitled pog
>Pt is hard
>my feet hurt

>>32590152
>describes the British military without even realizing it

>>32590152
You know I rarely meet smart enlisted non combat arms. They exist just like the fit non combat arms. But I do meet a lot of exceptionally smart combat arms guys.

>>32590941
I'm a software engineer. I make 6 figures. I'm an IDPA shooter. I work out 4-5 days a week. POGs have no fucking excuse to be out of shape manlet weaklings who cant lift a ruck and fail at battle drills. If anyone wants to give a POG shit for legitimate reasons, let that shit fucking fly.

>>32590941
Where the fuck do I sign?

>>32590977
6332.
You work 12-14 hour days as normal, then if we are working up for deployment we do "12 on 12 off" which means 18 hour days. Then at the end of the day you wait a fucking hour so some fucking CWO or MSgt can fucking talk for 45min about how good a job you did, but we need to work more. AND on top of that you have to maintain PT ON YOUR ON TIME, cause we don't have time to PT. THEN, cause the AV8B is a MASSIVE PIECE OF SHIT, they had to cram shit BEHIND THE ENGINE, and hot exhaust is great for computers. Fucking grunts think their the shit, but when some raghead shoots in their direction it's "Holy Shit we need Air Support NOW!"

>>32590209
They are

Hell compare any male finance soldier to any female finance soldier

>>32590152

why should people with marketable skills be treated the same way as dumbshits who will live in a VA hospital and die from an OD in 10 years

>>32596002
Its really more of a mental thing none of the shit we use is that heavy but when you have to wear for 24 or have to walk with it for miles it just fucking gets annoying but if you have been training with it your just used to it plus the infantry has a special way of making you bond with your guys and find humor and entertainment in just about anything

>>32597188
I can hear the estrogen in your voice, airfag.
Your women keep us company.

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There's only a few MOSes besides Infantry that suck as much as being Infantry.

That proposed plan would just make e everyone take POGs less seriously anyways.

It's all a racial and gender thing
non-whites given endless second chances, women allowed to skip all physical chances

Trump will end the pushing of cultural marxist agendas in the military, so most of this will disappear

>>32597330
No. I'm just jealous as fuck. I LOVED doing grunt shit, but this technical work killed my soul.

>>32597546

>loved doing grunt shit

Son, when have you ever done grunt shit?

>>32597807
MCT. Convoys. Read about VMA-211 as well.

It's so easy to train grunts that we barely have any around compared to some other militarys. It's much more important to have a sizeable Air Force and Navy because it takes much, much, much longer in general to train than an Army.

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>>32590152
Since when do they accept russians?

>>32590690
Perhaps she is using it as body armour?

When I went through Infantry train I in the muhreens, my platoon's chief instructor was adamant that only infantrymen should have crossed rifles on their rank insignia. Not a bad idea IMO.

>>32597845

You're a funny guy.

>>32591315

They call themselves veterans all they want, but when they call themselves combat veterans is when it pisses me off. The DOD's technical definition of a combat veteran is some on whohas earned a campaign medal. IMO it should be changed to people who have actually COMBAT medals (CAR/CIB minimum), because Everton knows that at least 50% of the people deployed to Iraq/Afghan sat a big cushy base with air conditioned living areas and a green beans coffee, and another 25% didn't even sniff a direct engagement with the enemy.

>>32598003
Camp Bastion wasn't fun.

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>>32590152
>There could actually be mutual respect between grunts and pogs

Well not all of us are complete and utter desl jockeys and pogs friend

>>32590977

I was a 92M. You need to do some remains prep to appreciate how good you got it you miserable fuck. Guys like you go in face down when we pack a box.

>>32598264
Camp Bastion was comfy as fuck with good chow.

>>32598365
>get raided.
>lose CO.
>get peppered with RPG shrapnel.
OK.

>>32598392
I was there at the same time. I still standby what I said. Just one attack.

>>32591315
What if I fixed airplanes in 40 degree heat?

>>32598312
some grunts are breddy cool

if they act chill and keep their shit together i'll help muhreens with DTS shit anywhere.

ive helped a guy who was gonna get ass fucked by his command for 4 grand because they were all semi-retarded. changed his shit within legal bounds following the JFTR and got him 1200 back with nothing out of pocket. hooked me up with range quotas PFT, CFT dates and all sorts of other shit. made a good fren

>>32590152

dumb question OP

thing is every soldier that posted in this thread will eventually be replaced with a generation of automated synthetic androids equipped to kill and destroy mercilessly without moral objectivity in their programming

the useless troglodytes that are cogs in the machines posting in this thread will eventually diminish into maggots and meat chunks and the established neo-utopia of augmented human beings will rise over the street goons of Detroit 9000

>>32598450
metal

>>32598409
>I was there at that battle!
Holy fucking shit, you out pog'd a pog.

>>32590152
So, if we're willing to accept a POG branch that will never fight, why not just fire them all and have their jobs done by civilians?

>>32590558
Air Force here

Nonners can go fuck em selves

While the base is closed down and everyone is home sleeping in I'm fucking working 24 hour ops because of "weather"

Yes I'm mad

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How about a system that doesn't have a block between enlisted and officer? Where the best troops have a straight line up the ladder instead of being stuck at E9?

>>32595985
> But I do meet a lot of exceptionally smart combat arms guys

No you don't. They are a lot less common than dumb combat arms guys. 80% of combat arms guys would be NEET's in the outside world. Most of them become NEET's when they ETS. That's why the smart ones reclass or get out. Sorry but it's extremely rare to find an intelligent enlisted man that stayed combat arms for his entire career.

t. Smart combat arms guy who became super POG and then finally just got out and makes lots of money.

>>32596002
>this faggot seriously thinks he's some sort of badass because he works at a computer and shoots a barbie gun

>>32601437
An E-9 going to O-1 for most practical purposes is like a demotion, you'd be going from battalion or higher level responsibilities to platoon level or bitch work at the bottom of the totem pole. It most likely would be a step down in pay too, not a ton, but enough. Real life doesn't work like video game rank systems.

>>32597807
>>32597546
>>32590826

Infantry never did convoys before OIF with the exception of mech units. Mounted patrols were taught to the infantry by MP's because they had no clue how to properly conduct them. Ask anyone who was in OIF1 and they will tell you how horrendous the infantry was at convoys and mounted patrols. People talk shit about MP's, but in real life mounted patrols are their bread and butter.

>>32590152
>What is Esprit-de-corps?
At that level, I think it's time to get off the computer and do something productive with your life instead.

>>32591156
Bet ya you're a pog.