Is it a bad idea to clone the M16a4 as my first AR15? I hear

>>32585097
>but if the MUHREENS were clearing rooms in Fallujah with it, then it must be decent enough, right?


i really hate this fucking retarded line of thinking

they did it with those because they were ordered to, not because thats what was best

>>32585097
Are you wearing a pc? Are you jumping in and out of cars for hd? If not, 20 is fine. I'd rather have the muzzle as far from my face as possible if I had to light off some rifle rounds indoors.

>>32585097
An M16a4 are around the same length as HD shotguns which have been hailed as the king of HD for a very long time
>accuracy
Lol with the 20in barrel youre getting the most velocity out of 5.56 than modern AR15 carbines

>>32585097
>Also, am I losing out in terms of accuracy because the handguard is not free-floated like modern build AR15s?
if you have to ask you were never going to use the extra potential accuracy from free floating

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>>32585097
it's your gun OP, do what you want

>>32585097
>Is it a bad idea to clone the M16a4 as my first AR15?

Do what you want. It's a fine build for certain applications, and if you are a Big guy the stock fit may not be an issue.

>I hear that the 20" barrel and full sized stock are unwieldy indoors

Extremely. Pieing a hallway corner is kind of a bitch when the rifle is longer than the width of the hallway.

>but if the MUHREENS were clearing rooms in Fallujah with it, then it must be decent enough, right?

A lot of military shit is "acceptable" without being the best, or is sometimes good at certain things while being bad at others. The M16A4 was something of a misguided holdout to the traditional rifleman-centeric thinking of older USMC commanders? Do I have to pull up the idiot General's anti-carbine rant for you?

>Also, am I losing out in terms of accuracy because the handguard is not free-floated like modern build AR15s?

Yes, but not significantly. AR15s can be subMOA, an M16A4 clone will probably be 1-2MOA depending on build and ammo. If this is your first AR15, assure that the gun is likely capable of more accuracy than you will achieve.

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>>32585097
>then it must be decent enough, right?
The SOVYETS used 91/30S to clear rooms in Stalingrad, but that doesn't mean 29" barrels are good for cqb.

I wouldn't want an M16 as my first AR. The fixed buttstock is a bigger turnoff for me, but you do you anon.

>>32585140
>HD shotguns which have been hailed as the king of HD for a very long time
By bubbas. Carbines are just better.

>>32585121
>20 is fine. I'd rather have the muzzle as far from my face as possible if I had to light off some rifle rounds indoors.

Seriously, have none of you actually trying moving around indoors with a full sized AR? It sucks.

If OP wants an M16A4 clone because he likes it, and because he wants to shoot it at distance, go for it. But I won't say it's the best AR configuration for indoors, nah.

>>32585154
>Do I have to pull up the idiot General's anti-carbine rant for you?

Not OP but I've never read it. Mind sharing the link?

The problem with a non freefloated barrel isn't so much accuracy as it is POI drift when you are shooting it in different positions (standing, supported, slung, etc).

>>32585154
The Marines just got issued a shiny new 20" last year made by FN.

>>32585154
>Do I have to pull up the idiot General's anti-carbine rant for you?
Do you mind doing it for me? I always assumed some retard ex-DI SgtMaj wanted to keep it to drill with.

>>32585183
>'Marines like that M4 carbine because it looks cool. And I've had some Marines complain to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying 'you know, the officers are getting these things, but we're still having to carry this rifle.' Well, the Marine Corps will always be a rifle Marine Corps. The carbine is an extension of the pistol, not a reduction of a rifle. And in the Afghanistan scenario where you're shooting long distances you gotta be able to reach out and touch 'em. And a carbine is just not designed to do that.'

He said this while Marines were having to constantly short stock their rifles because A2 stocks and body armor were never meant to mix. And 14.5 inch barrels were suitable out to 500 meters, which even in Afghanistan was well within normal engagement ranges. Not that that is applicable to OP, just saying that the USMC leadership had it's head kind of up it's ass despite word from the ground about M16A4s, so never trust the "If it's good enough for Marines, it's good enough for me" mentality when spending your own cash.

>>32585207
Yes, we all know about the IAR. It's not a full replacement service rifle, it's a SAW replacement/substitute. Nothing about it being adopted by the Marines contradicts the fact that using a 20 inch barrel indoors is clunky. At least the IAR has a collapsing stock.

>>32585148
its your money, use it when you need it

>>32585097
>but if the MUHREENS were clearing rooms in Fallujah with it, then it must be decent enough, right?

They also had frag grenades, armor support, and a fireteam or two right behind them.

You don't.

>>32585097
It's a great gun that works well. Just because the military uses it doesn't mean it's the best; it's a compromise between what's good and cost effective.

>>32585121
I don't intend to buy or wear plate carriers, and even if I did, I would probably have a "modern" AR15 build before.

>>32585140
>>32585154
I use a G19 for HD. I live in an apartment though. I'm 5'10", 160 lbs.

>>32585280
The m27 IAR has a 16.5 inch barrel and is made by HK. I think that poster is implying that FN is still producing A4's for the Marines, which is wrong

Do you feel like you are in need of the best home defense set up or want a rifle configured the way you fancy? Do you have a couple hundred bucks letting around you could put towards a cheap PSA 16 or 14.5 inch complete your you can leave slapped on Incase you need to defend yourself? There is a running theme on /k/ that you need to always have a "my guns must always be set up to kill and any other mindset is fudd or dumb" which gets out of hand.

Tl;Dr if you feel significantly threatened that you need a home defense rifle right now and cannot wait any longer than you have to than get a carbine. If not get the a4

>>32585097
>If the Marines used it is must be good enough right
The very existence of the A2 and A4 with their fucklong LOP stocks, retarded profile barrels and ungodly shitty burst cam is evidence that MUHREENS are fucking retarded. That aside, they used those because that is what they had to use. Clearing a house with a 20" barrel is markedly more unwieldy and awkward than with a 14.5" or 16" barrel. And despite what you will hear so many times here, the velocity difference really isn't that fucking great either. A 55gr. .223 round will be only about 100 fps slower out of a 16" barrel at 150y than if it was out of a 20" barrel.

>>32585097
If the overall length is a serious issue just use a collapsible stock.

>>32585589
>Fuck your LOP to make your rifle shorter
Or just use a carbine barrel...

>>32585561
There is more to barrel length than velocity.

>>32585592
For anybody under 6ft, the A2 LOP tends to be too long anyway. Especially since it was conceived with old marksman stances in mind rather than squared up stances.

>>32585598
Not really in any practical sense.

>>32585598
That's literally all it has going for it.

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So, not trying to hijack the thread, but...

With tax time about to hit, I'm thinking of using my refund money to fund an AR, since they're nearing record low prices and I don't have one yet.

Thinking about buying a cheap-ish pre-built rifle that the LGS has in stock, and adding MOE furniture, similar to pic related, but overall cheaper. Probably stick with a fixed front sight and a Magpul rear sight for a while, but will probably throw on a budget red dot optic (like the Vortex Sparc) later.

Is there any real reason why I shouldn't?

>>32585611
>>32585646
Not him but there could be something to say about rifle length gas system and being less finicky than say a midlength and much softer shooting than a carbine

>>32585592
Or I can use a collapsible stock, have a comfortable LOP and still have the benefits of a longer barrel..

>>32585668
Get the material specs of everything in it and bring it to /ARG/ so you don't get had, by some dick gun shop

>>32585611
>>32585646
How to identify someone who has never held an AR.

>>32585668
read /arg/ regularly for two months and if by the end of that time period you still want anything to do with ARs, you'll know how to build one and what manufacturers to avoid.

>>32585689
Cool argument

>>32585672
Can't much of that be mitigated by using an adjustable gas block and tuning it properly?

>>32585689
I own two, one 20" and another 14.5". Try again.
>>32585672
Both are fine for reliability, and they're fucking 5.56. Recoil doesn't even enter the equation.

>>32585181
>implying the 4 inches saved on a 16" barrel makes a difference

if you don't have the nfa stamp to go 8" barrel there is no point to sacrificing the 4 inches of muzzle velocity

>>32585713
Sort of. Adjustable gas block can only control the amount of gas going into the bcg but it doesn't replace the dwell time.

>>32585720
>the 4 inches of muzzle velocity
All 90fps of it?

>>32585716
>Both are fine for reliability, and they're fucking 5.56. Recoil doesn't even enter the equation.

And yet the are hundreds on threads of people asking for what different buffer weight they need to fix over gassing or a rifle chocking on cheap steel case.
And every single review I've ever seen or read takes a moment to relay how absolutely soft shooting rifle length ARs shoot

>>32585738
>midlength
>overgassing
Stop, you're getting it confused with 16" carbine gas, and even then it's hardly anything to start fretting about buffer weights over.

And between my ARs, both run fine, brass or steel case, and are comparable in felt recoil.

To be honest, there's not nearly as much difference as the Internet pretends there is. The worst part about the A2/A4 is the stock, and that's not as big of a deal without body armor.
I say that having owned/been issued 14.5", 16", 20", 10.3" and 8.5" ARs.

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>>32585097
All signs point to "no"

>>32585765
8.5" is a toy

10.3 is the shortest you should go if you're ever going to use it for more than punching holes in paper.

>>32585720
>Implying 4 inches doesn't make a difference

Would you rather get raped by a 1 inch dick or a 5 inch dick?

Even small lengths differences can make a big difference. You'd know that if you'd ever tried to move around indoors with a fucking fullsized rifle.

>>32585770
>2017
>Putting BUIS on a rifle

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>32585781
I can maneuver inside with a 20" 590 just fine, an A4 clone is slightly shorter than that

Bonus round, fully extended with my handgun has the muzzle at almost the same distance from my eyes as the shotgun

>>32585781
Seriously, I don't know why we're seeing so many people screaming to the heavens about how amazing 20" ARs are lately...guess it's backlash over how popular carbines are now.

>>32585763
>and are comparable in felt recoil.

I doubt this greatly given my 20" with a birdcage has less felt recoil than my 14" with a comp.

>>32585779
Wat is .300 blackout.

>>32585813
I told you, a toy

>>32585097
You will never clear a building with it and if it's your first AR there is no possible way you will notice the tiny difference in accuracy vs free float even shooting from a rest so get it if you like the looks.

>>32585813
A rifle round giving pistol caliber results

>>32585810
Okay, and I'll say my 14.5" middy doesn't feel any less harsh than my 20". Considering we're discussing fucking 5.56 here, we're arguing over which frag grenade would make us deader if we swallowed them after pulling the pin.

>>32585807
What I see is a lot of people screaming that there are no advantages to a longer barrel.

>>32585834
If all you do is blast paper at short distances then yeah there is no meaningful difference to the felt recoil.

>>32585834
>14.5" middy doesn't feel any less harsh than my 20"
because it's borderline undergassed

>>32585806
I would absolutely love to watch you round a corner in a household hallway with a full length longarm.

>>32585835
When it comes to ARs, there really are few real advantages to an extra 4" of barrel, unless you really really need an extra 90fps on average and a smidge less felt recoil. There's no denying rifle length advantages, there's blatant overstating.

>>32585792
Gr8 b8 m8

>>32585854
come invade me bb :)

>>32585738
Rifle length "shoots softer" because the gun is heavier, retard.

>>32585851
It's funny because it has not once given me a single issue over thousands of rounds and the people who cut it down widened the port very very slightly.

>>32585843
You are acting like anything shorter than a full length rifle is some kind of uncontrollable cannon.

People qualify on 300 or 500 meter ranges with 14.5 inch barrels all the damn time.

>>32585884
as opposed to the people in this thread claiming a 20" barrel is utterly uncontrollable inside a structure

>>32585843
You must be a frightfully inept shooter if a 14.5" midlength AR is an uncontrollable beast...

>>32585898
It is markedly more unwieldy and clunky than a carbine though...I know because I've done it multiple times with both.

>>32585668
What you describe is literally my exact setup and it runs just fine for me. Former muhreen infantry here and my PSA budget carbine doesn't leave me feeling like I have any less gun than a higher end manufacturer. Sure I'd love a noveske but I don't think there's anything wrong with budget ar15s.

>>32585097
You did not make a mistake, 20 inch AR's are awesome. While perfectly suitable for HD, it is inferior to a carbine. The rifle is more accurate than you, learn how to shoot it properly and consider buying a new upper to suit your style more properly if you exceed your current rifle's capabilities.

>>32585879
Yea nothing to do with the gun powder beginning to show combustion towards the end of the barrel or the slower cyclic rate or the rifle length buffer tube. Just pure weight

>>32585097
Ok. First question is are you going to be shooting indoors and clearing houses with it?
I built an A2 and it's a lot of fun. The rifle buffer and gas system make it a really smooth shooting rifle.

I get really frustrated on this board because a dozen times a day, someone will make a thread asking if X is a good starter gun, then list a random con like being too long to clear houses with, yet never define their intended purpose for the gun.
Is it a home defense gun? If thats your intended purpose, then your con makes sense. If you want a target gun or hunting gun, then it's nonsensical to include that as a con. You seem to have just gotten the notion of wanting an A4 and whimsically made a thread without doing any research on your own.

>>32585781
>Would you rather get raped by a 1 inch dick or a 5 inch dick?

Found the homo.

>>32585824
>>32585819
You know you can use supersonic loads, too, don't you?
Regardless, that's a way to get a functional AR below 10 inches.

Buy want you want, /k/ will hate you whatever you do

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>>32585280

>The carbine is an extension of the pistol, not a reduction of a rifle

The fuck?

Related: I'm building a 20" AR from a PSA upper, but I'm not going for that A4 look. My interest is varmint hunting and range fun.

So, dumb question: is a fixed stock my only option for a rifle-length buffer tube? Are there any stocks anon would recommend besides the MOE rifle stock, or an A4 knock-off?

I'm currently building an A4 clone, it's hardly my first though. Chances are you're not going to be doing any HSLD opratin' so there's no harm in going in that direction. If you end up not liking it you can always swap the stock and upper later.

>>32585097
>Also, am I losing out in terms of accuracy because the handguard is not free-floated like modern build AR15s?

Yes. Thats why US Army lost Vietnam because the M16 didnt had a free-float-barrel so they didnt hit anything.

>>32587064
I think Magpul makes a rifle stock.

>>32585097
Fuck the full size stock, get a magpul FCS with the Vltor A5 buffer system. Otherwise, it's fine. The difference between a 20" and 16" barrel is negligible indoors as long as you don't have that fucking obsolete ass stock that they're only now replacing 20 years after the Army did. Seriously, the A2 stock is something that should have gone away 20 years ago.

Otherwise, an M16Aforgery is fine.

>>32585477
That quote is two years old. The commandant has since eaten crow.

>>32585097
How much indoor shooting or house clearing do you do?

Buy what you want. You can always change it later.

>>32587318
>Vltor A5 buffer system

Two hundred and fifteen dollarydoos? Gosh, anon, I don't know if it's worth that to me :/

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>>32585280
This is why I think the M16A4 PIP is the future of 20 inchers. 20 inches for that 300yd fragmentation threshold, but still works with body armor.

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>>32585097
Nothing wrong with an a4 clone if that's what you want to do. It's never been easier with Colt and FN offering base guns and the rails being so cheap on eBay.

As for practicality the stock is the worst part. It's too long for most purposes (assuming you're 6'4" or shorter) and non adjustable. 20" barrel is best for using irons and is needed for military ball from a terminal ballistics stand point. With optics and modern SD ammo (or Mk318) it's not a big deal. You are losing out on practical accuracy without FF hand guards.

Best reason for an a4 clone is to mount pic related.

>>32587513

Oh wait, that's with their proprietary stock... apparently it's $110 for just the tube + spring.

According to random poster on m4carbine dot net:

"As for stocks on the A5... there are two A5 tubes: The RE-A5 (original A5 system) and the RE-10/A5SR "short rail" tube.

The original tube (RE-A5) was designed to use the Vltor EMOD stock and works well with similar longerish stocks like the Magpul ACS.

The A5SR "short rail" tube has the lock pin holes located to work better with a GI M4 style stock and works better with traditionally sized stocks like the Vltor IMOD and Magpul MOE/CTR/STR stocks."

>>32585561
>Muh 4 inches dont matter

YES IT DOES

while a 20 inch barrel is unwieldy indoors, especially with that dumbass a2 stock, that extra velocity vastly increases the distance that .556 will reliably fragment in soft tissue.

That 300fps carries that fragmentation range out a few hundred and even longer depending on the specific ammunition.

>>32587532
>the stock is the worst part. It's too long for most purposes (assuming you're 6'4" or shorter)
>>32585604
>For anybody under 6ft, the A2 LOP tends to be too long anyway
>>32585561
>A2 and A4 with their fucklong LOP stocks
Whut? 5' 10" king manlet here, I always found the A2 to fit just right. Then again this was before people shot with body armor

>>32585696
>Read /arg/ regularly for two months
I'd rather kill myself

>>32585097
OP.

It would be fine. It's great to learn the fundamentals of marksmanship on. But, just know you're going to want something different in a year or two. You'll tire of the unwieldy musket feeling.

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>A4 bread?

>>32585325
this

so get a real rifle in cal .308

>>32587612
>TFW every country fielding .308 rifles as standard issue are getting fucked up in combat

>>32587579
It should feel just right at the range. That's what it was designed for. Buts it's horrible for all other uses.

>>32587525
The Canadians got it right long time ago with the C7A2.

>>32587633
>countries using rifles that have been outdated for more than 50 years aren't good in combat
You don't say.

>>32587633
see
>>32585325

Did you read the part about support weapons, training, and logistics? That's what wins wars, anon.

>>32585097
Go for it! They're super fun, the 20" barrel really gets the most out of 55 and 62 grain bullets and they look killer with a bayonet. If you want a go-to I've gotta be discreet and get out of my town on foot they're not the best rifle but for home dense, plinking, and target shooting they're fine to great.

You won't regret it anon.

>>32587666
STANDARD ISSUE 308! Jesus christ anon we are on the same side.

>>32587655
Oh ya kek, forgot this was /k/

>>32587653
I really wish Colt would import Colt Canada guns and parts. They have some really cool stuff.

>>32585668
>Getting a tax refund
Comrade pls...

>>32587562
Holy shit you are exaggerating things. The gain in fps from a 20 inch barrel is on average just under 100, and the fragmentation envelope is bolstered by like 25 yards. Maybe 50 with some ammunition meant to capitalize on that. Fuck off with your lore.

>>32588416
>I only shoot 55 grain ball

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>>32585097
If you're using a handgun for HD, and your rifle is your fun/"shit is going down in the worst way possible" gun, I dont see why not.

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>>32588450
Guess what shortround, that applies to everything up to 77gr. as well.

>>32588607
I posted this the other day :D
Did you get it from a /k/ thread, or from elsewhere?

>>32588623
The only AR15 site that manages to be worse than barfcom.

>>32588643
I didnt realize there was one.
Pretty sure I got it from Arfcom

>>32585170

>you see cletus
>when yer acog stops working just turn the gun over and use the carry handle to aim

>>32586996

Not him but I think the quote is alluding the fact that some M4s in the usmc were replacements for the M9s for some officers.

If thats not what was meant it was literally meant as a carbine is the extension of a pistol then holy shit wat

>>32588673
Give m4carbine.net a spin, see how long it takes before you want to start drinking. Buckle up.

>>32588607
>Graph shows nearly 200 more fps at most ranges with a 20" over 16"
>im gonna cherry pick the few that agree with me :^)

>>32589077
>nearly 200fps at most ranges
Are you just fishing for (you)s?

>>32587532
>(assuming you're 6'4" or shorter)
>this is what manlets actually believe

>>32585097
>Is it a bad idea to clone the M16a4 as my first AR15?
i think its always prudent to seek out what others may be doing for the sake of innovation, but if you think you will get any kind of consensus on /k/ about the AR platform then you'll be sadly disappointed.
go for it if ya wanna.

>>32585114
Wasn't in Fallujah but was muhreen and cleared lots of rooms with a m16A4.

Fpbp. Just because it's doable doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job. Full size m16's are good, but a broom in the room for urban warfare.

>>32586996
IDK why he think that as that general has to be older than the M1 Garand/ M1 Carbine days.

>>32589077
>somehow the bullet velocity increases some 80-90fps after exititing the barrel
Wew

>>32587064
I think Vltor also has one. You can also go with the magpul PRS

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>>32587779
inorite? Hehehe

>>32589193
> if I keep calling people manlets no one will remember that armor and chest rigs exist and what clearing building interiors is like