India v. Pakistan

If India won, Pakistan's nukes could either fall into the hands of ISIS or the Taliban.

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>>32547786
What is yo definition of winning?

India gets a well needed reduction in population and urban bloat.
Pakistan ceases to exist.

Everyone wins.

>>32547837
Strategic victory, probably securing their claim on Kashmir nowadays.

>>32547813
I didn't think about that.
Shit.

>>32547865
Kek.

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>>32547837
genocide

>>32547877
Pakistan. One way of having a strategic victory is by having the support of local populace

Kashmir, being a majority muslim region (and was heavily marginalized by their hindu overlord) would start rioting the moment Pakistan declared war on India

That is why India is pursuing a cold start strategy, whereby they're going to be the one who used nuke the moment shit went downhill. However there's no way China would let shit fly and there's a concern that China would themselves launching their nukes at India's strategic assets, since unlike China (where nothing really worth saving in the western part), most of India's cities are within China's nuclear range

The goal is not to conquer india, rather to break india into several smaller countries, like Yugoslavia

>>32547786
I'm gonna add my own stipulations since op is vague
>Nukes don't exist and aren't a factor in anything
>Victory means one state is no longer a sovereign entitty
>There are no outsiders besides supply supply of equipment and food
>Outsiders do not play favorites
With all that said I'd say the poo in the loo would win. Their militaries are equally incompetent, so India would win through attrition. I doubt either are competent enough to end the war through a series of decisive maneuvers. That said India would probably lose more people

>>32547813
>If India won, Pakistan's nukes could either fall into the hands of ISIS or the Taliban.

Most would be used and many sites would be attacked, likely with US cooperation to finish the Pakiban threat.

India can absorb tactical nuclear warfare and not smell any worse. Nukes expended, pajeets finish off Pakiban and problem solved.

>>32547960
I thought the U.S. was somewhat more buddy-buddy with Pakiban than India?

>>32548067
Nominally yes, but Pakistan being awfully intimate to China made the US to shift towards india instead.

However, they're still playing the status quo with both countries, unlike China who, from the start, favors Pakistan and would supply them with basically everything except probably DM-21 missiles

>>32548091
isn't india really intimate with russia? Doesn't really look like there's much room for a serious partnership with the US for both countries

>>32548091
>>32548110
Yeah, I thought this too.
Then again, it looks like US-Russia relations are going to improve as well, so maybe it would end up US-India-Russia v. Pakiban and China in this scenario.

>>32547936

China isn't gonna do shit against India (at least in a military sense anyways)

India has what 1.2+ billion people at this point? Even if you only got a third of those rallied around a fascist/nationalist Hindu led insurgency that's still nightmare fuel for a foreign and especially a disliked (Indians generally dislike E. Asians) force trying to control shit in India.

If shit really hit the fan, (even accounting for nuclear strikes to major pop centers) India can still field a massive fucking army/insurgency.

>>32548110
I wouldn't say intimate is the best word, they're still close with Commonwealth countries, which will always drag them away from Russia, but Russia can provide investment capital that is sorely needed, and India try to be fairly pragmatic with their foreign policy, they can even get along quite well with Pakistan when the need arises.

>>32548135
Some crazy 60% of the populace still lives rural in India I think, in their traditionalist and nationalistic villages, right?

They have some 1 mil. reserves too, don't they?

>>32548135
You forgot how India is on a losing battle against secessionist rebels in every part of that shithole.

There's the gommies in the east (and south east), the punjabis on the north,and last but not least, the kashmiri themselves who would rather be with Pakistan.

In the event of India and Pakistan go to full blown war, no amount of treaties and ceasefire would stop china to take an opportunistic step break india apart. China has already practically encircle india with host of vassal states Even if they would directly intervene, they would still sends weapon and "advisors" to do the job

>>32548255
/wouldn't

>>32548135
>>32548179
>They have some 1 mil. reserves too, don't they?
>India can still field a massive fucking army/insurgency.
China/Pakistan would never/can't impose occupation on India and man power means nothing if you can't supply them. Even now India faces supply shortages and it's not like anyone is on their side dumping aid on them. If SHTF in India, they'd be screwed.

>>32548255
There are plenty of secessionists, but India is definitely not losing any battles there. Secessionism is down, many of the hardcore guerrilla groups of the past are turning to state politics instead, and the state is accommodating different groups by splitting apart individual states.

>>32548291
Fair point, can't fight if you can't eat.
What do you think about a couple years from now, when Modi has reformed the military, then?

>>32548291
That's what >>32547837 is asking in the first place.

>victory for pakistan is getting kashmir
>victory for india is to march towards islamabad
>victory for china is to break india apart

What's so great about Kashmir anyway? What makes it so valuable 2 countries went into 3 wars for it?

>>32548415
Water

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>>32548415
Back when the Princely States were choosing whether to join India or Pakistan, the Hindu King of Kashmir decided to join India, despite a large Muslim population.
Obviously, this caused some issues, as the populace was legally Indian but wanted to be with Pakistan.

>>32548426
And this.
A bunch of rivers flow from up there.
The Ganges itself comes from nearby Nepal, so there's quite a bit of water up there.

>Speaking of Kashmir

Every prior conflict to the nukes and India won, but Pakistan's turn to jihadist insurgency/auxiliaries has helped mitigate their prior weaknesses. Also it remains to be seen if the India-Pakistani army dynamic back then is the same now.

Also regarding secession, you have to remember that Pakistan fears it as much if not more so than India. Pakistan cannot existentially threaten India. India can and does existentially threaten Pakistan.

Pakistan has to deal with:

>Pashtun separatists. There are 30 million in pakistan, 13 million in Afghanistan.
>Balochis separatists.
>Irritation by the Sindhis towards the predominance of the Punjabis in everything.

In the past I think there was issues of the Muhajirs (Muslim migrants from India during partition) dominating the political landscape but I am not sure if that is the case now.

India has the gommies and Kashmiris, but Pakistan literally has two of its four regions interested in separatism. Sindhis probably wouldn't but if any state in South(east) asia is liable to balkanize it's Pakistan.

Speaking about balkanization, is there any other countries in asia that is susceptible to break apart?

>>32548515
Philippines and probably indonesia

>>32548529
What's up with Indonesia?
I know Timor separated, do more states want that?

>>32548485
In regards to the Pashtuns, losing 16% of your population sure as fuck would hurt.
Ouch.

>>32548637
>aceh (though it's kinda cooled down a little after 2 massive earthquakes and a tsunami fucked up the region)
>sulawesi
>west papua

>>32548669
Sulawesi seems to be the only one that really scratches the population.
Lots of resources?

>>32548698
It was (and still is) a major settlement and one of the early sultanate in Malay archipelago. Obviously there are some sizeable population there

>>32548637
Aceh had a long running insurgency but they've obtained regional autonomy now, and they were hit the hardest by the 2003/04 tsunami (quarter of a million killed all up, shit was ridiculous)

West Papua wants to break away, because ethnically they are completely different, and they were a separate Dutch colony after Indonesian independence, then Indonesia did some dirty tricks and annexed it.

There is also other ongoing conflicts that aren't strictly separatist, like Muslims vs. Christians in those islands that look like droopy flowers, and Muslims vs Hindus in Bali, as well as general lawlessness in Kalimantan (but I think they have some separatists there too).

There's plenty of other ethnic tension too, like between the dominant Javanese and the rest of the population, between everyone and the Chinese, there's piracy in the north through the Malaccan Strait, there's lots of illegal land clearance and theft for plantations (especially for palm oil), and lots of terrorist groups running around, with the police being in a constant state of whack-a-mole.

But personally I don't think they'll break apart. Their economy is doing too well, they'll reach that comfy stage of development where people get lazy before they'll reach civil war.

I'm not too crazy about Indians, but I'll take a turd in the street over a bomb in the market any day.

>>32547813
i wonder tho how many would know how to use one most would probably be sold to the black market

I'm not too crazy about Indians, but I'll take a turd in the street over a bomb in the market any day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3yZWO9n1rI

>these countries have """""""militaries""""""

>>32550053
Two things:
>kek at that huge dick-waving competition
>anon actually thinks that their whole armies are like this
Anon pls.
The Wagah border guard is known to be a special unit, mostly for show.

>>32550495
>thinking pajeet has an effective army when their service rifle is a complete unaesthetic frankengun and their whole navy is rusting

>>32550536
Did you even read the OP?
We're talking about a war between India and Pakistan.
Regardless, those are both being revamped by the new BJP Government under Modi.

I don't know why they're trying to do domestic production, though.
Just buy some AK74's from the Russians.

The issue is that they essentially have no private arms manufacturers like the U.S. does, so the government is trying to do it in their own factories, and as governments never do anything right, the output is fucking trash.
I'd bet you could make a killing setting up a private arms manufacturing business over there.

>>32550664

If India can send satellites into orbit, I'm sure they can eventually manage to develop decent small arms

You don't get experience in something until you actually start doing it, so it's really not that crazy that they are pumping out top tier equipment atm.

India is an emerging world player and will only get more important as time goes on.

>>32550744
>india
>emerging

Yeah no, considering their military is a logistics nightmare I don´t think so

>>32550744
Their new tank looks pretty good, at least for the places it'd most likely be fighting in.

New question:
If you could advise India to model their new gear after or take ideas from any country, which would you choose?

>>32550793
I think emerging implies that such issues aren't settled yet, but are beginning to be settled.

>>32547786

India would win easily, that means that Pakistan would use nukes. A lot of street shitters would die as result of that. Mankind as whole would win.

>>32550793

You guys are so racist it makes you delusional lol

India is the fastest growing economy in the world, second largest population 1.2bil, is modernizing rapidly, and has through diplomatic channels skillfully "made nice" with nearly all the current world powers.

You're fucking kidding yourself if you don't think India is on it's way to becoming a world player.

>>32550802

Right now they are picking and choosing shit from everyone while developing domestic arms production, seems like a good strategy. They aren't really beholden to one side or the other, because of globalized their economy is and how so many countries rely on them.

>>32548110
The US can threaten to stop importing Java programmers from India, and they'll smarten up.

>>32550975
Talking about how many countries are reliant on them,
What do you think ASEAN and SEA would do in this scenario?
Doesn't India influence them quite a lot?

>>32550976
kek

>>32548067

On paper? Yeah. Personally? US and Pakistan loathe each others' cultures, and are looking for excuses to disown each other which an Indi-Pakistan war would allow.

>>32551074

Probably not a whole lot, with the exception of China in the north, India's other Asian neighbors are weak as fuck in comparison. Burma? Nepal? Bangladesh? Bhutan? No contest.

>>32550893
You're the one who deluded yourself if you think india is going to be a """"world player"""". Those 1.2 bil people worth shit when
>almost half of them are illiterate
>more than 2/3 are below poverty line
>the government couldn't provide for its people

How big the economy really is? How many forbes top 500 companies came from india? How aggressive they are in promoting their foreign policy that other country would seriously shudder at provoking them?

The best india could do is to intervene its neighbors' politic, which made them to harbor resentment towards india and began to align with the chink which offers total, unrestricted (amoral even) economic and military cooperation without obvious political clout behind it. That's why they were armed with chink made weapons even tho genetically and historically they are closer to india.

What's india gonna do about it? Butthurt, as usual, like how the bangladeshi is acquiring 2 modernized chink subs

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/purchase-of-chinese-subs-by-bangladesh-an-act-of-provocation-toward-india

India has fewer friends than Pakistan. They would lose through attrition.

Pakistan would see a successful naval blockade, because the Chink port in Gwadar is not yet finished, but the Chinks would supply them overland if only because the Pakis are doing what the Chinks themselves would want to do.

Pakistan itself is a narrow corridor that from the port goes straight uphill.

>>32550893
1.2 billion illiterate, starving people doesn't really mean much. In fact, I think they should consider culling the population like china did with 1 child policy

India is also becoming a dumping ground for cheap chink junks, with trade relation between india and china skewed heavily towards china. Indian manufacturing base aren't advancing fast enough nor catering most (if not all) of the average needs of yo average shitheads. That's why they're importing cheap goods from china

This is what I always said previously, and I wil say it again; China doesn't see india as an enemy/rival (unlike their sworn enemy, Japan). China needs india's large population to expand their own economy. This is why China is looking for FTA deal with India. Hell they would even sell weapon to india if india wanted to

>>32550053
that was amazing

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My fantasy boner war is for India to invade Pakistan and for a giant insurgency to happen in the Afghan/Paki region, like what went on in OEF just on like 40x the scale.

Huge artillery battles, insurgents allu akbaring, large armies banging it out in remote regions with AKM's, G3's, and Poo rifles. Both countries throwing huge cash out for foreign mercenaries and advisors as the population starves and riots. Giant rolling gun battles in the sprawling metropolises, house to hovel with grenades and AKM's. Insurgents in both countries seizing the opportunity to rise up and antagonize their foes even more, everything from gommies to radical and bizarre cults from the hinterland taking up arms and waging a guerilla war.

It could be /k/ as fuck.

>>32547946
>Nukes don't exist and aren't a factor

The entire discussion just lost all connection to the real world. This is exactly the reason why countries build up a nuclear deterrent. There will never be a war between India and Pakistan since the only winning move is not to play.

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>>32553879
>mfw

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>>32548135
India is barely capable of feeding its own population. A war would totally disrupt food distribution and would cause massive food riots - people don't care about nationalism when they have nothing to eat. Pakistan must be in about the same condition.

That said, India is pretty much impossible to invade. There's shit covering the floor absolutely everywhere. Where people don't shit on the floor, airplanes simply dump the content of their toilets at random. Pakistani soldiers would have to be careful not to walk in shit, they would hesitate to go prone and to crawl, fearful of getting a mouthful of slimy and stinky shit. Tanks would slip on shit covered roads and fall into ravines. Only the air force could fight decently, but India seems to have the better one.

Pic: Indian soldiers preparing a roadblock

>>32554402

The image of tanks sliding on shit and falling into ravines is fucking hilarious. I presume the ravines are, of course, filled with shit?

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>>32554418
Probably must look like pic related.

India bough 3050 Tavors for US$ 17.7 millions. Thailand bought 106203 Tavors for US$ 27.77 millions.

How can I start trading with India? Those people have no idea about negotiation.

>>32548793
>Their economy is doing too well,
4-5% growth and a GDP per capita of $1,000

>>32554700
Thailand actually bought 13,868 rifles for US$27.77 million, and it was several years after, whereas India bought them when they were first released.

Also, they bought them several years and one housing crisis later, so there's a difference in the comparative currency rate. Compared to 2002, Thai Baht was worth about 10% more in 2009, Indian Rupee was worth about 20% more (2020 here we come! :^)

So yes they did pay more, but it's a modest amount more, not a difference of over 2000%.

>>32553461
Fucking this
They still poop on the sides of the street. Thier main river is just so crappy.
Beautiful culture tho :^)

>>32554812
You're way off with those numbers...

>>32554812
India is at 1,820 per capita for nominal GDP
It's the 8th quickest growing economy and is fucking huge

>>32547786
>>>32550893
>1.2 billion illiterate, starving people doesn't really mean much. In fact, I think they should consider culling the population like china did with 1 child policy

Not the guy you are responding to but China didn't "cull" their pop w/ the 1 child policy policy, that was never the goal, 1 child was about stabilizing rural vs urban growth disparities but that's not relevant anyway...

And 1.2 billion illiterate ppl actually means quite a bit, if history has taught us anything, even top tier militaries (Nazi Germany) can eventually be chewed the fuck up by shit tier armies who are willing to throw infinite numbers of starving, poorly equipped, nationalistic young men (Soviets) into the meat grinder of war

>>32553510
>>32553461
>>32553461
You do realize the literacy rate is about 75%.
Still shit for a modern country, but not bad considering 60% of the population lives in little fucking villages.
Food PRODUCTION also isn't an issue, just the TRANSPORTATION. The food supply lines are fukt.
https://www.indiafoodbanking.org/hunger
This is due to the old National Congress party having ruled for almost the entire time between independence til now.
Ghandi family were corrupt little shites yo.
But now the people are sick of it, and there's been a nationalistic movement in government with Modi's BJP and other nationalist groups airing support.
It's likely that these things will finally be fixed, and thus, will make India capable of becoming a world-player.
Note that >>32550893 said it's "on its way," not that it currently is.
And frankly, you are delusional if you think it's not. Everything has been improving, and rapidly.
In 2011, less than 22% of the populace was living under the global poverty (do keep in mind that things are much, much cheaper in India) line, compared to just two years prior where it was 30%.
They top the World Bank's list at 7.6% Economic Growth, and HDI and GDP per capita, particularly in purchasing power, has increased steadily for a decade.
Socio-economic reforms are in the works as we speak under the new government, as are military and development.
Provided the BJP stays in power as long as the Ghandis, the country WILL become a world player, whether you like it or not.
All the current, official prodictions from the World Bank and other economic institutions say so, and the stats back it up.

All they need to do now is lower trade regulations to make small business available to the public and big business expand, and they're set.

>inb4 /pol/acks

>>32547786
One letter would arm it would take
>Poo in the Loo
Potential world war three?

>>32557357
All*

I was hoping this thread would die at night, because now there will be no actual discussion, since day/k/are is here.

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>>32547786
How does Pakistan even have a chance of winning?

India has total nuclear supremacy, while I doubt most Paki missiles would even successfully launch.

India has much more to lose in a nuclear exchange; consider the comparative number of major population centers in both countries.

>>32558102
What kinds of nukes does Pakiban have, though?

>>32558147
All tactical. Maybe enough for a small city at best.

Or more likely an advancing enemy column. But they would also be hitting their own.