.22 for concealing and personal protection discussion

>>32507628
Better than nothing

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>>32507628
bad because of reliability concerns, good because of accuracy at full magdump.

I think that covers it completely?

>>32507652
But worse than just about anything

>>32507628
I'd love it, because I'm Canadian so being allowed to carry anything would be a godsend

>>32507652
Undeniable point, but realistically would a 22 be more than capable of eliminating a threat if it were to maybe wear leather coat or through some barrier?

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Follow up shots, and capacity is literally the only thing to worry about in a CC. That being said .22LR is the best CC cartridge in service.

>>32507656
With my p22 I've never had a fail to fire or miss feed and I've put a few hundred rounds through it.

>>32507671
I own this 22 and I have an MP sheild .40 that I carry most of the time but lately I've been going back to the 22 more often than not

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>>32507657

not everything

>>32507689
Wew lad

>>32507665
.22 LR isn't a fucking bb dude

>>32507672
That's impressive. However my concern isn't necessary for your p22, but the reliability of rimfire cartridges themselves.

If you do 1000 rounds without a single failure I'd suggest carrying it and doing so confidently. As everything I've read or seen has lead me towards accepting that defensive shootings are rapid fire shitfests with disgusting hit/miss ratios if given anything more than 2 feet. So which ever round you can reliably land upper torso hits at "as fast as you can pull the trigger" is the best option available.

I fail for the macho bullshit, and can admit I was wrong. Stuck with a 357. revolvah cuz muh reliability and stoppin' powah.

>>32507628
Literally illegal in my state, and with good fucking reason.

Might as well carry a fucking BB gun.

Why in the actual fuck would you carry .22 willingly?

not a recommended caliber for self defense

>>32507628
I just want a compact PMR30, or maybe that would be a PMR20. Mag dumping a semi soft shooting gun that sounds like a .357 and breathes fire like a dragon. That would let any would be muggers know I don't fuck around.

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>>32507628
If you do, get CCI minimag 40 grain round nose. Don't get the hollow points because your barrel will be too short for the bullet to achieve the necessary velocity for expansion.

>>32507756
Because I can rapid fire 10 rounds into a dinner plate at 15 yards. It's cheap. And because most people don't think, oh it's just a 22 when you pull a gun on them

>>32507671
Please stop, someone might take you seriously.

>>32507681
Then have fun getting killed.

>>32507727
It's close enough that carrying one is fucking retarded.

Shit, you all do what the fuck you want, it's not my funeral, but carrying a .22 will get you fucking killed.

>>32507756
Squirrels and snecks

A shovel also works for those but i get stares when i oc my snake shovel

>>32507779
I don't give a fuck about your groups, even if you could, by some miracle, reproduce them while under life/death stress. Even if you could, you're not going to stop any fucking threat with a .22, period.

If you aren't ready to kill, don't fucking carry a weapon at all.

>>32507799
Strong talk coming from some pussy civilian I'm sure.

I'm here asking questions, don't try throwing your dick around

>>32507779
except people can do that with a 9mm too, it's called practice and having strong arms and hands to grip the gun with

>>32507799
do you have an argument? Any at all? Or are you mad because you're too stupid to articulate a point? Literally shoot yourself in the chest with a .22 and then I'll take you seriously.

>>32507830
Agreed, but I only get a 6 +1 out of my .40

I usually have one in the car and the other in my pocket

>>32507833
You're claiming a 22 is incapable of killing someone. And I'm being called a moron?

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>>32507628
If you're going to carry a .22 for CC, at least make it a double action revolver. That way if a round does fail to fire just pull the trigger to go to the next one after it.

>>32507821
And I gave you an answer.

If you don't need lethal force, you have no business bringing a firearm out at all.

If you need lethal force, you need something that isn't .22.

Don't shit all over the answer because it doesn't confirm your bias. .22 can and will get you dead, and that's something I'd rather prevent.

>>32507833
.22 does not reliably stop human threats. It does not travel deep enough into the human body, it doesn't expand, it's only wounding mechanism is impact and it lacks a LOT of that.

Of course it'd suck to get shot by .22, but it's not going to kill me, at least certainly not long before I've already killed you. Bullets kill by blood loss, and .22lr does very little to create much blood loss. You can shoot ten .22lr into a one inch group at a human target and still be less effective than a single 9mm, because the 9mm actually had the energy to punch through ribs.

>>32507865
I think you replied to the wrong guy. .22 is capable of killing, but not very well. Equally, a carrot is capable of killing, but that doesn't make it the best choice or tool for the job.

>>32507830
Literally no one can more accurately and rapidly shoot a 9mm than they can a .22

What's next, someone is going to train to shoot a 30-06 faster than they can shoot an AR-15?

I suppose you could train yourself to reload a revolver faster than an auto. However it would be by handicapping yourself.

>>32507877

"Wrong"

>>32507628
Not really that good.

>>32507665
Maybe magdump and then run like shit, but it's a really risky move.

>>32507689
Honestly, I would actually rather carry a single-shot 9mm than I would a .22LR pistol.

>>32507628
what kind, lr or magnum

>>32507893
Now you're the one presenting no argument.


There are people actively trying to help you from making a mistake that could actually cost your life, and instead of even asking basic questions, you're shitting all over us because we aren't confirming your fuddlore prejudice.

>>32507911
Lr

>>32507727
While true, it's been frequently observed that .22LR (particularly from pistol length barrels) have been stopped by heavy clothing like thick denim and leather jackets.

Which isn't to say that people aren't frequently killed with these bullets, but still.

>>32507778
Honestly, even from a rifle barrel (from which .22LR isn't actually shabby), I wouldn't bother with hollowpoints, not for defense, the amount of expansion you'd get doesn't really seem like it'd make a difference, I'd rather focus on getting as much penetration I could.

>>32507628
I guess ill add to this. Many moons ago i use to carry a hi standard sentinel 3 inch 22 mag. Its what i had. Never had a problem with it, was it the best choice? No but it was better then being unarmed in wilmington.

>>32507799
Why are you so upset about someone using .22? You realize that .22 has the highest rate of fatality in America right?

>>32507833
That's not really a good argument at all, I wouldn't shoot myself with a BB gun but that doesn't mean I'd advocate for it being a good defensive weapon.

>>32507937
Gotta love Wilmo

I got the 22 as my first pistol and was in your situation for a while it was all I had I've since moved up to the .40

>>32507939
but the issue at hand is immediate stopping power..cc'ing a .22 is no good if it doesn't stop the threat right then and there, not days/weeks later.

>>32507960
I hunk all we've proved is situation dependency, I'd rather have the 22 over nothing, and best bet, hopefully the threat is someone with a knife or otherwise non-fire armed

>>32507939
Most people who are killed with .22s aren't killed immediately, it's things like bleeding out, or septic shock, depending on what kind of injury it causes.

It's like a really bad stabwound from an icepick, it won't kill you immediately, but it's really fucking bad for you.

>>32507891
at some point you reach diminishing marginal returns. Once you're shooting splits in the teens range, some people just can't make their trigger fingers move any faster, even after training.

plus a 22 is poking tiny fucking holes. when you look at the anatomical structures you want to disable to stop an assailant, I have little confidence in such a small diameter and low energy round. Will it work? yes if you poke enough holes. but at some point I would rather poke 6 larger holes over 10 small holes.

>>32507972
>I'd rather have the 22 over nothing
That's fair enough, and while more often than not, just flashing a gun is enough to deter any two legged predator, I highly advise to save up money for a more dependable weapon for carry as soon as possible.

>>32507689

The R51 re-release is good, though.

>>32507955
Ya i carry a lcr .38 now or my kahr 45 if i need something seirous. Ya wilmington is a garbage pit full of dindus. Thats why i moved south to good part of the state.

>>32507865
Re-read what I just said motherlicker.

>>32507877
>.22 does not reliably stop human threats. It does not travel deep enough into the human body, it doesn't expand, it's only wounding mechanism is impact and it lacks a LOT of that.
"Wrong"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVY4gT5P20

>>32507952
It wasn't supposed to be, it was making a mockery of your logic.

>>32507972
I agree, i'd rather have a underpowered gun than no gun at all..but in OP's case...22 is a range/plinking/small game hunting gun...would i carry one? absolutely, as an ankle gun to arm someone else or if my primary 9mm went down..but as a go to? no.

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>>32507891
>Literally no one can more accurately and rapidly shoot a 9mm than they can a .22
Wahey!

>>32507990
Wrong.

>>32508039

Wrong.

>>32507628

OP you are a faggot.

That said, if you can find ammo that will go through heavy clothing + 12-18 inches of gel OUT OF A HANDGUN, that also goes bang each and every time, sure. Go for it. The target isn't going to be able to tell that the hole is .22 instead of .36-.46 of an inch wide.

That said, I'd rather have at least a .22 magnum.

>>32507939
Because I'm trying to keep you alive, asshole. That's why I'm fucking mad.


>>32507972
While technically true, the same could be said of a piece of rebar.

>>32508019
Those are astoundingly small wounds, that's 5-10% gel, and in now way does gel, especially light gel, give any indication of how things react to actual human targets, especially after hitting bone. For a more accurate test, grab a rack of pork ribs and stick it about one inch into 20% gel.

>>32508058
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MUJWIOnURQ

>>32507982
you can only reliably disable a person from hitting their spine or brain. Anything else is not immediate. Sure you could hit them in the heart and they'll stop doing whatever they're doing in like 7 seconds. However, caliber will only be a negatively impacting factor in the situation of landing one of these shots.

My base argument is simply, shot placement is much more important than bullet mass and the majority of defensive shooting is done at rapid shooting rates. So which ever caliber you can barely aiming accurately shoot into a dinner plate as fast as you could pull the trigger is the ideal round for you.

>>32507689
How the fuck did Remington fuck up such a simple concept so badly?

>>32508113
While correct, that only matters if your chosen bullet can punch through the skin and muscle, which is surprisingly bullet resistant, then bone, then more soft, water-like tissue, and then have enough energy left over to damage said CNS structures.

.22 has trouble penetrating foreheads. Shit, even .40 JHPs I've seen stop 1cm short of the heart, which still isn't quite deep enough to fuck the spine up enough for a drop. Seeing that is why I stopped carrying 9mm JHPs and started carrying heavy FMJs.

>>32508083
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7kgpIaGeI

I'll do you one better. here's a pig being taken down by less than .22 pistol velocity .22

>>32508160
If you really think this is at all comparable to a two legged threat that's dead set on fucking ending you, you are 120% wrong.

Please, anon, just save up and get a better gun when you can.

>>32507628
It's a dumb fucking idea because 22lr isn't reliable as it is and the P22 is one of the shittiest guns ever made and that's ignoring all the other reasons it's a dumb fucking idea. Buy a little 380 if you want something small and light on recoil

>>32508152

>FMJ

Enjoy your overpenetration and wrongful death lawsuit.

>>32508214
Anon, 9mm FMJ is going to struggle fucking hard to punch through a human target center mass, and extremeties JHPs will also rip through.

If you're talking about walls, literally anything that can kill a person can punch through most interior spaces.

>>32508239

You are a retard for not carrying hollowpoints

>>32508187
you're a fucking retard and I've stated my case above. If you're too stupid to formulate an argument show yourself the door.

it's the reigning king of ending people in the U.S for firearms. So I don't think you should really comment until you get a real gun. Go quote bullet damage on /v/

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>>32508239

gr8b8m8 i r8 8of8

>>32508152
Nothing wrong with wanting to shoot jamal and his buddies behind him.

However, I'm interested in where and under what circumstances you've seen .40 JHP stop in such a short space of human flesh?

>>32508246
I thought that at first, too, until I saw actual ER records of JHPs that completely stopped dead-in-tracks before or just before actually touching vitals.

>>32508263
I've given you arguments, none of which you've actually countered.

I don't know why you're so fucking angry about this when I'm trying to actually help you.

Once again, here are the facts:

.22 does not have enough energy to reliably pen bones.

.22 does not have enough energy to cause rapid blood loss even with rapid follow ups.

.22 does not have the ability to punch through to the spine or the brain, generally speaking, from the front.

.22 puts yourself in more danger than it saves you from for the aforementioned reasons.

.22 will absolutely not punch through barriers and have enough energy left to hurt someone.

The only time it is appropriate to bring out a gun is when lethal force is called for, end of story.

>>32508282
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

This guy talks a lot about the wounding mechanics of handgun rounds, a little bit on rifles, and at the end the treatment objectives of gunshot wound victims. Good watch.

>>32508272
>I have nothing to counter/I lack a basic understanding of physics and/or the ability of drywall to stop bullets

>>32508263
Weak-ass gel doesn't reflect human targets, and taking down hogs from a distance sure as fuck doesn't reflect a determined attacker whatsoever.

>>32508308

Well, I call you a retard, but I carry flat-nosed FMJ's in my 380 for auto glass, so I can't judge too much. I'd love to see those ER records.

>>32508333
Check out the video link in >>32508308

He also mentions that auto glass has a tendency to fuck with bullet trajectories, but he never specified just how much.

Why are there no double stack .22s?

>>32508346
Because the rim and the crimping.
Even on the .22WMR you'll see the crimping start getting fucked up in the KelTec PMR30 when loaded in it's magazine.

>>32508308
>22 does not have enough energy to reliably pen bones.
neither does most pistol calibers, at least .22 isn't just going to get stuck in it.

>.22 does not have enough energy to cause rapid blood loss even with rapid follow ups.
but it does?

>.22 does not have the ability to punch through to the spine or the brain, generally speaking, from the front.
neither does most pistol calibers. except maybe .44 mag or .50 AE?

>.22 puts yourself in more danger than it saves you from for the aforementioned reasons.
puts yourself at an advantage for the aforementioned reasons.

>.22 will absolutely not punch through barriers and have enough energy left to hurt someone.
I suppose you should run if you have objects between you both?

>>32507877
>Of course it'd suck to get shot by .22, but it's not going to kill me

Listen to this faggot here
>lead object moving 1000ft per second wont penetrate my super tough skin.
>being this tough, left little room for brains

>>32508383
>Neither do most pistol calibers

Yes, yes they do. How the fuck else do you think people get shot in the lungs/heart?

>but id does?
No, again, it does not. The displacement of 10 .22s still isn't equal to one 9mm expanded JHP.

>Neither do most pistol calibers
They do, depending on load and projectile used.

>See above

>Run with objects
Then you'll get shot.


>>32508391
Of course it would; it takes a shitload more than penetrating skin to cause death. That's what multiple people in this thread have tried pointing out.

What it won't do is pen someone's skin, pen bone, and then proceed to fuck enough shit up past all that to quickly bring down a threat of blood loss.

Fucking watch this shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>32508428
I literally got back from plinking .22's today. Now I was using a rifle. And for obvious reasons it has a higher velocity.
But I still think an object moving 1000ft per second leaving a pencil sized hole in you would create some damage.
And to be totally honest. I can rapid fire about 8 rounds in 8 seconds or less. With little recoil.
Is it a great cc caliber. No
Will it kill someone. Yes.

>>32508428
Do-able: Heart, lungs, brain (eyesocket)

Not feasible: Skull, sternum, spine, any skeletal area. Thigh area. Likely not penetrate through leg muscle to hit artery.
So about a 50/50 chance of killing stationery
50%-25% moving
So yeah, 25% of killing with .22lr

>>32508485
Not quickly, not from the front. This is what I'm trying to tell you, this is why I'm suggesting you watch the video. The man explains it much more eloquently than I do, but there are only 2 methods by which bullets kill; blood loss, and CNS damage.

Skin acts similarly to a non-Newtonian fluid. It's good at stopping fast moving things.

Muscle is incredibly dense, fibrous, and flexible, which is also good at stopping speedy things.

Bones are fucking scary strong, generally tougher to punch through than steel.

And then there's effectively water behind that, which is also great at stopping bullets.

It's not a question of whether or not it'll damage a human target, but how much and how quickly.

And if you're taking 1 second per shot on a .22, you need to practice defensive shooting more. There's a reason you're taught to magdump with actual defense calibers.

>>32508428
Looks like a great video I'll get around to it later.

However, I think the point you're making is a 9mm bullet wound is more deadly in the same spot as a .22 bullet wound. Which you're absolutely correct and I haven't denied that once.

however, a .22 wound is still plenty lethal as the FBI has clearly documented such the case.

Furthermore, a .22 wound is certainly easier to put into a person and finally, more easily to repeatedly put into a person. With shot placement being so very important, why would you willingly play with the handicap of shooting a more unwieldy round than one you can reasonably expect to put several mortally wounding rounds into a human at upwards of 30-40 feet in 2-5 seconds?

>>32508543
You're still missing the main point.

It's not about yes or no, it's about how long it takes to do it.

>>32508391
How about you respond to his whole sentence instead of cherry picking to change what he said.

>>32507628
I wouldnt chance it
Yeah your usual thug or cock sure kid looking for a quick buck is going to back down at the sight of a gun, let alone the pain of a gsw, but this is modern America bro. Your chances of the agressor being on some form of drug or drink is astronomical, and the chances of him shrugging a .22 and deciding not to back down, whether out of desperation, bravado, or drug induced invincibility are damn high. I'd say go for it if you're a damn good shot and dont frequent inner city areas often
Otherwise get something thats going to cause some damage
Or better yet have multiple carries
.25 in the front pocket for muggers and assholes, 9mm in the back pocket for anyhing else, .45lc in the car for fucking mutants and pcp fueled niggers

>>32508554
you believe cns hit's are expectable? I'd like some information on that.

>>32508019
>"Wrong"
>tiny wound cavity that will not stop someone from killing you

>>32508577
I did sir. This board lists all responses as anonymous. Its one of many complaints I have. Op should be forced to have the name OP in the name field. All others should be listed as Anon 1, Anon 2, and so forth. As it pertains to first anon who posted.

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>>32507628

get your cowboy on and OC a ruger single nine

>>32508628
Also, this would eliminate same fagging.
As im doing right now.

>>32508543
>Furthermore, a .22 wound is certainly easier to put into a person and finally, more easily to repeatedly put into a person.

Anyone with minor practice will put .380/9mm/45acp etc. into a person as fast as they can pull the trigger. All of which will have drastically more effect on your attacker than any .22lr load that exists.

>>32508628
If you did then why did you strawman the first half of that sentence and ignore the second half.

>>32508485
The issue isn't whether a .22lr 'can' kill someone, it is its lack of reliably killing them before they can inflict harm on you.

>>32508675
>strawman tactics
OP clearly contridicted himself.
Technically changed his opinion to suit the argument in reference to .22's & their lethality.
You accused me of cherry picking details.
However apon reading that post I reaponded to, one can easily see the contridictions. OP expressed that a difference in an immediate death, and a prolonged one would be the difference in survival for the shooter. However, there is little evidence to prove that a non lethal shot to the attacker would result in the death to the shooter. A response greater than the attack being placed would suggest a greater chance of survival.
Example: A mugger with a knife attacks you. In response you shoot him with a .22 in the chest.
Ops argument is that the attacker high on drugs would continue attacking. Perhaps later bleeding to death.
This is insane.
Presumably a non gun weilding attacker would withdraw after shots are fired at him. It's a fight or flight response.

>>32507990
>The R51 re-release
Re-re-release

>>32507799
You are aware that more people are killed by .22lr than any other caliber, right? Still, if I wanted a tiny carry piece, I'd get a .32.

>>32508897
Well after the fact though
The .22 doesnt exit usually, so it can actually ricochet and bounce around your internals like a pissed off tasmanian devil, especially in the head
However internal bleeding, hemmorhaging and the various problems that come from this dont kick in for several minutes. Your baddie is going to still kick your ass and then pass out and die an hour later in the hospital

>>32507628
We chronographed some handloads yesterday. My kiddo wanted in on the action, so we let him send a magazine of .22lr from his Mossberg Plinkster through. Averaged 1250 fps through the rifle barrel. That's about 140 ftlbs/sec. Not exactly a powerhouse. Beats nothing, but not as good as any centerfire.

>>32508991
That's why I said I'd rather have a .32. They're surprisingly effective for such a small platform. And fun to shoot, too.

>>32508149
By being absolute jews and refusing to pay for anything besides the bare minimum in manufacturing.

>>32508991
This is total fuddlore and isn't true.

.22 travels for about 1/4" after hitting a bone and stopping.

>>32509213
Fuddlore from med professionals
Hear this literally all the time from inner city EMT's and Nurses

>>32507877
>a carrot is capable of killing

I now have plans to build a tacticool carrot. Thank you for the idea, anon.

>>32507628

This man works for Boston EMS and can't carry a firearm.

This man carries a North American Arms .22 Magnum in black powder.

I'll n ever win a gunfight, but I'll be fucking damned if you cut my neck for some drugs and leave that scene without a divet or 4 in your fucking ass.

>>32509274
>Thinking meds are exempt from spreading fuddlore

It's the truth, anon. If .22 doesn't have the energy to go through 12" of 20% gel, how in the actual fuck do you think it'll retain it's momentum amidst a mostly fluid system with much denser material?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpQEKhpuMco

>>32508654
wrong.

>>32509322
You realize the majority of your vital cavities are air right? Your brain is mostly just fluffy fat, your chest cavity is compressed air, and your abdominal cavity is mostly air and water
Contrary to what fudds with ballistic gel want you to believe the human body is not one pure solid slab of meat, hell even the majority of your organs are thin muscle sacks half full of fluid

>>32509322
Instead if thinking of the chest cavity as one big solid block of fat, think of a giant balloon, surrounded by ribs, filled with two air filled balloons and one thicker baloon half filled with water

>>32507672
I'very had my P22 target for 10 plus years. It has been awesome and I've only had a few stove pipes and a few failed to feeds when using cheap crap ammo. I use eley edge mostly now and have yet to have one fail.

>>32508193
You obviously don't own a p22. It's an amazing little gun.

i feel like it very well could be used as a cc or hd weapon effectively. There are claims that 22 can't even pierce thick coats but then according to some alaskans it can take down a adult polar bear. I think claims are exaggerated on both sides.

>>32507628
Are you being attacked by rats or squirrels?

>>32508831
You are still avoiding responding to the whole sentence because your argument falls apart if you do.

>>32508897
>more people have been killed in accidents by an extremely common round in its 100+ year existence

Which is irrelevant, see >>32508722

>>32510072
That happens annually, and lots of those deaths aren't accidental. I also recommended a bigger round.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-09-04/intruder-alert/57580692/1

>people don't know placement.

"Jones fixed his aim on the center of the man's chest and fired a single shot."

It really is true that in a situation where the gun is not pressed to somebody's temple (i.e. a self defense situation), a .22 will bounce around inside the skull, helping to ensure that your mugger or attacker is killed, and not maimed or made braindead. If you don't kill them, you are very likely to be sued. And you don't want that. So I think that .22 is actually a great round for self defense. Just aim for the head, and it will do its job. Plus, even if you hit the body, it's all about shot placement. Seriously. A .22 to the heart is going to kill you just as much as a 45mm to the heart will. And .22 is very cheap. Also, .22 has minimal recoil, so it helps you keep on target. Finally, .22 comes in some really precise guns like the ruger mk. 4, which even stock is used by tournament shooters. so blow it out your butt, OP. .22 is NOT a bad round.

http://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/03/16/Fifth-grader-kills-two-burglars/5644574491600/

Old but relevant.

"But despite praise from police, William Todd Knight wept when he found out he had killed the two intruders with the .22-caliber rifle his father gave him for Christmas."

>>32507934
>While true, it's been frequently observed that .22LR (particularly from pistol length barrels) have been stopped by heavy clothing like thick denim and leather jackets.

Please stop repeating this retarded fuddlore. It's almost as bad as the ".22lr will bounce around in you and shred up organs" bullshit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V7Efn-kgDs

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/12/cci-stinger-22-long-rifle-clothing-and.html

>>32510324

Nice. Here in Finland they would arrest the whole family and put them in a mental hospital.

>>32508068
Pmr30 for self defense

>>32509274

But not surgeons....

>>32507727
Back in the Korean War, the .30 Carbine round had occasional issues penetrating winter coats of the Norks. Keep in mind, this was at a greater range than most defense scenarios, but also with a larger bullet with more muzzle energy. A .22 in a pistol is a retarded choice for defense since it's going to rely so heavily on placement to stop the threat, even at breathing distance. And considering the special variety of fuckers that you will need to perforate to break contact at breathing distance, I would not risk my life to a .22 sailing through their opiate- or meth-induced haze unnoticed.