Operation Downfall

>>32446205
>Would the US have had the stomach for this or not?

That should be self-evident. Of course not, hence all the firebombing and two nukes.

Seeing as how Korea and Vietnam went in the decades that followed, I wouldn't be surprised if Operation Downfall would have been a total failure either way.

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The US decided to massacre civilians instead, so we'll never know.

>>32446205
Perhaps victory by 1947.

At least 250,000 Allied dead. More dead from radiation from tactical atomic weapons on both sides as the allies misunderstood how deadly fallout was. Perhaps the Japanese could sue for armistice, but not likely.

We probably would have eventually accepted something less than unconditional surrender to end it.

>>32446237
The US already had no qualms killing civilians in both Europe and Asia. Eisenhower unapologetically bombed Switzerland then gleefully commented on how many Swiss civilian dead he created. Too bad they lost their balls when it came to the Soviets.

>>32446240
>Perhaps the Japanese could sue for armistice, but not likely.

Japanese wanted better terms.

They got it by holding out, until US became too scared of the USSR boogeyman having too much influence in Post-War Japan. They got their terms, and didn't have the country cut in half like Germany. This would have happened regardless of what direction US would have taken, because by that time US had been getting extremely frustrated at what USSR was doing to Eastern Europe.

>>32446205
My late grandfather was being trained for this, he was going to be sent in the night before to scout targets for artillery and sabotage landing zone defenses.

The atomic bomb saved my life

>>32446237
the edge

>>32446268
>Too bad they lost their balls when it came to the Soviets.

No real way to defeat the Soviets by that point. Maintaining supply lines over the Atlantic was not going to be easy.

It wold be Okinawa scaled up ten times. Worse, in fact. The Jap planes would appear over the mountains and be on tiop of the fleet with very little warning and the damage would be astronomical. A kamikaze hit rate of one in six was estimated, and there were 6000 kamikazes. There were 900,000 Japanese troops on Kyushu alone, backed up by the civilian population. There were several hundred midget submarines and over 2000 suicide boats. It would have made Stalingrad look like a teddy bears' picnic.

>>32446288
>and sabotage landing zone defenses

WW2 equivalent of a suicide vest. Dodged a bullet there.

>>32446307
I mean he was an officer but yeah he was basically guaranteed to die. He was in the Navy and they deployed him for a year before realizing they failed to give him rifle training.

I used to work in a vast, dilapidated office complex which was originally built as a huge hospital to receive casualties from the invasion of Japan.

>>32446296
>Have super weapon that can wipe out small cities
>Vastly superior air force and navy
>Soviet manpower was in tatters

No. The western allies had all the cards. They choked.

The alernative - other than the Bomb - was a Russian invasion of Hokkaido so we would have had to forestall this.

>>32446237
If you had to decide between killing hundreds of thousands of your own men and dealing with the Soviets, or just ending it by killing hundreds of thousands of civilians on the enemy side, any sane commander would choose the latter.

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Pic related is a novel by a veteran which describes how he thinks it would have gone down. On my reading list.

>>32446237

Shame on you, America! Japan dindu nuffin! Baatan death march and Nanking was capitalist pig propaganda!!!

>>32446336
>Have super weapon that can wipe out small cities

Only two of them. Both used. Not enough damage to be effectively used outside of densely packed cities. Since it was a gravity bomb, it had limited use against dense air defenses. Still a decade before more advanced missiles could be reliably used.

>Vastly superior air force and navy

So did the Nazis. Maintaining such a large fleet overseas was going to be difficult. Navy had limited use against USSR.

>Soviet manpower was in tatters

Not really. They had plenty of conscripts that could have been mustered from their captured territory.


US made a gamble that there were more effective ways to deal with the Soviets in the long-run. They were correct, USSR collapsed in under 50 years.

>>32446237
McNamara pls go and stay go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RceLAhPOS9Q

Total naval blockade, every city firebombed, every train track and road bombed, millions dead from bombing, starvation, disease,and military looting before the first American boot touched the mainland several months after the operation began.

Footholds and base camps established under the cover of naval artillery and a slow gradual push through suicide rushes and countless civilian bodies dead from suicide because IJA propaganda convinced them we were going to rape women and children to death if the were lucky and torture them if they weren't.

WW2 was a total war. One out of four Russians died. Japanese causalities would have been worse. Scorched earth tactics and absolute fanaticism would have meant the few survivors would have had to rebuild Japan from literally nothing.

Japan would have a much larger population of foreigners today and race mixing would be common. It would not be an economic powerhouse instead it would likely be mostly making toys and providing unskilled labor.

Any technological centers and manufacturers would be built by Japanese Americans that wanted to rebuild the homeland.
That's my estimate. Probably one out of ten Japanese would survive.

>>32446487
Retarded opinions like this one are how US ended up losing in Vietnam.

Mass over-projection of US capabilities and underestimation of the enemy.

>Japan would have a much larger population of foreigners today and race mixing would be common

You mean like the US? You can't walk down the street of any major city without seeing half the couples be interracial.

>>32446205
The Purple Hearts issued to US servicemen to this very day are from the same set pressed in '45 in preparation for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands. Over seventy years of almost unceasing US conflict and we still have a good 100,000 out of 500,000 yet to be issued.

That's probably the most powerful anecdote I can think of when it comes to Downfall and Coronet. It would have been, by almost all estimations on both sides, the bloodiest battle in human history. The nukes were the merciful option.

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>>32446237
>He fell for the moral war meme

>>32446408

>Only two of them

And the means to build more.

>So did the Nazis.

Wrong. USAAC,RAF and CRAF were three Air Forces that outstripped the Soviets. The German Navy was trash compared to the USN and Royal Navy.

>Not really. They had plenty of conscripts

So did the Germans and Japanese. Non issue. Zerg rushing with conscripts is a meme.

>US made a gamble that there were more effective ways to deal with the Soviets in the long-run. They were correct

After countless proxy wars, saboteurs poising the youth, The Communists pushing the rise of radical Islam (Peace movement) AND nuclear proliferation. The allies lost by a thousand cuts when they could have had everything.

>>32446533

Dude the IJA were literally issuing civilian corps bamboo SPEARS.

And so what? America is literally a nation of immigrants. You're criticizing a soup pot for having many ingredients.

Literally every national and ethnicity was a mix. Every nation and ethnicity came from a combination of nations and ethnicities that existed before it. Everyone's a mutt. Racism is the height of ignorance.

>muc 100% German ancestry! I can trace my lineage back 500 years!!

Big whoop, go back far enough and you'll find out your a mutt made from a fusion of cultures and nations that existed long before Germany.

Nothing wrong with racial pride but don't be dumb about it.

>>32446573
>And the means to build more.

Would have taken years to build enough stockpile. You have to breed plutonium from enriched Uranium, it doesn't occur naturally. That takes time.

Nukes only got scary when ICBMs became a thing. Then you could bypass oceans and go straight for the cities. Before then you still had to secure airfields and control airspace, deploy bombers, etc. Miscalculation of Fallout would have blocked entire land-routes for armies. Soviets would have eventually developed a bomb anyways. They were aware of how to build one, just felt that it wouldn't have been ready in time so they focused on other things during the war. This goes for the Japanese and Germans as well. France and UK were the only ones that didn't have a clue.

>The allies lost by a thousand cuts when they could have had everything.

I don't think you fully appreciate how many lives it would have taken to topple the Soviets. We are looking at another 5-6 years of War at minimum. US risked being left drained and barren. WW2 led to an economic revival, but too much War would have left to a collapse.

>>32446641

>America is literally a nation of immigrants.

Lol

>>32446641
I never said it was bad. The way it was written simply made it seem like a bad thing, when it is actually quite common in US.

US already had a lot of second doubts after Okinawa. Overestimating their strength and underestimating the Japanese.

Operation Downfall could have easily ended in failure, and left US without many troops or credibility to counter the Soviets in case Operation Unthinkable had to commence in Europe.

>>32446655

Well I could count myself as a native but I'd have to go back thousands of years to where one brother migrated one way and another stayed....

But yea. America is literally made up of migrants. Same with the rest of the Americas.

The whole Mexican Reconquista idea is flawed to the core because Spain stole those lands before Mexico revolted and the Mexican royalty were assholes that had it coming. I can sympathize with Mexicans that are mostly of native blood but anyone else can fuck off because they are wanting free land that was never theirs and the Spanish have a much bloodier history with natives than we do.

So that shit can fuck off and end now.

>>32446682

Oh yea, marines were never BTFO so badly before or after. A campaign of subduing the IJA on the mainland would have been bloody as hell and set Japanese population back thousands of years.

>>32446641
>Everyone's a mutt
No, but everyone who claims this is.

>>32446268
Coincidentally, the Soviets had no qualms about killing civilians, either. They just preferred to kill their own.

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>>32446641
El. Oh. El.

>>32446745
A campaign in Japan mainland could have crippled US and let USSR do whatever the fuck they wanted in Europe.

It could have also ended up in failure with US having their army depleted and destroyed and Japan still standing. Then they would have had to resort to firebombings and nukes anyway.

>98th Infantry division
Goddamn this country used to be glorious.

>>32446814
My father was stationed in Germany in the '80s. Used to tell me a story about how he manned a checkpoint for two solid days as two full British divisions were on maneuvers. Just two solid days of men and vehicles moving down this road, he was awestruck.

Two divisions. It's hard to comprehend just how huge WWII really was.

>>32446755

Then your idea of what constitutes a pure breed is flawed as fuck.

Absolutely flawed doctrine.

We will NEVER have pure breed humans unless we acquire a sample of the first human that existed and genetically engineer ourselves in their image.

That is literally the only way it can happen.

The bible literally says god will spread Hebrew genes to every human, too!

So good luck and have fun arguing with the guy that can control time and space. I'm sure it'll be a good read.

>>32446811

The Soviets lost almost all their factories and all their European farming was disrupted for seasons AND by Germany's surrender one out of every four Russians were dead, most were displaced, and the rest were starving

>>32446408
>So did the Nazis

Unadulterated wehraboo bullshit. The Kriegsmarine never had a chance to finish their planned buildup, since the war started about 5 years earlier than they were ready for. They were looking to have parity with the RN around 1944, which would have made Operation Sealion remotely viable.

The Luftwaffe was never much more than a tactical CAS adjunct to the Heer. They failed at all of the things that a strategic air force is supposed to do- air superiority, strategic bombing, and organic logistics support. If they'd been competent at to first two, Operation Sealion could have been a reality. If they'd been competent at the third, that very well could have covered for the shortcomings of the KM during that timeframe.

It would have been a very different war if Britain had been invaded, even unsuccessfully.

>>32447062
What the fuck are you even talking about?
>Everyone's a mutt
is a stupid and ignorant thing to say and it can only come from people that do not understand anything at all about this topic. The only reason why you bring this up is so that you can at least can say something. It's worthless.

>>32446487
>One out of four Russians died

Source? Numbers I'm coming up with show 20 something million Russians died during the war, from war-related causes. Out of a population of roughly 180 million, that gives us somewhere in the neighborhood of 11% losses.

>>32446408
>They had plenty of conscripts that could have been mustered from their captured territory.
No they didn't, considering many of the countries they captured were either already bled dry by genocide or german conscription or pretty much fighting them to the death (at least 10k fighters just in Romania AFTER the whole thing got decapitated, and that's not including the 50k that were supporting them)

It WAS doable, it was just that they didn't care enough to do it. If they did, they would've been able to leverage tons of support from Romania, Poland, Germany, Hungary.

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>>32446288
>The atomic bomb saved my life

Same here. My maternal grandfather was a fighter pilot in the Marines. He was in a squadron at the end of the war that was training up in the new F7F Tigercat, a twin engine heavy fighter. His squadron was slated to be in the first wave of the invasion, they were expecting 90% losses.

>>32446641
> can trace my lineage back 500 years!!

Which is nothing more than documented inbreeding. I don't know why they're so proud of it.

>>32446205
It would have been America's Somme Japs would have dug like rabbits for weeks and not even direct its from battleships would have touched the bunkers, if they could have even been targeted because the japs would have camouflaged them well. And then they would have come up when the forward elements had passed and shot them in the back.

And that's for the men that got onto the beach. I bet the Japs would have had 3-5 planes per ship to overwhelm the AA guns and cause catastrophic damage. Worst losses of life in US Navy history are what, Arizona and Indianapolis? They would have been dwarfed by the hell off the beaches.

>>32446642
>Would have taken years to build enough stockpile.

Archival sources suggest that the US would have had up to 7 devices available by October of 1945.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/04/25/weekly-document-the-third-shot-and-beyond-1945/

>>32446642
>UK were the only ones that didn't have a clue.

UK had their own nuclear program, which was folded into the Manhattan Project. They were there every strp of the way

>>32447212

I mean our genetic information rarely matches our beliefs about racial purity to the point where male believe criteria become the standard

>>32446205
1. a fucking bloodbath
2. absolutely. the us would have seen it through to the end of every jap.

>>32447387
I think he mixed up some statistics, I think the original statistic was that one in every 4 Russian men born in 1922 was killed or someshit like that.

>>32447582
Me too, my grandfather was a prison guard at Auschwitz

>>32446642
Look up Tube Alloys project.

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>>32446431

>proportionality you guize
>like my very own Rolling Thunder™ which totally didn't fail completely and get countless pilots killed( or tortured for years as POWs) needlessly because of "muh approved target list"

wew lad

>>32447802
Bless your grandpa.

Any stories?

What was the Soviet Navy doing in WW2 anyways?

>>32447779
I believe that is correct, I've heard that number before.
It's why the average Britain and Russian male are so, uh, identifiable today. Britain lost a massive chunk of its best and brightest young men in WW1, and Russia lost a big chunk in WW1 and an enormous amount in WW2. The best and brightest of the past joined the military as that was where you'd be most likely to get an education. But both graduating classes were eradicated.

>>32446290
Not edgy, just the truth. Death toll for Hiroshima and Nagasaki nukes plus Tokyo firebombing adds up to almost half a million civilian deaths. Deal with it instead of spouting memes.

>>32446296
for fuck's sake, we maintained supply across two
oceans against real opposition what did stalin have for a fucking navy, you double negro

>>32447839
Being angry in the Black Sea because the Turks won't let them go into the Med, lamenting the Russo-Japanese War, and nothing of strategic value. The only thing they could have possibly tried would have been a naval invasion of Romania.

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>>32446237

>>32447627
I don't think you realize how small populations have to be for actual inbreeding.
Harsh outbreeding is worse in humans because of how genetically diverse we are

Around a third of our SNCOs had been around for WW2 and Korea, with practically every officer above the rank of Major in the same boat.

I never asked them much, as that wasn't the done thing at the time, but they were universal in their hatred of the Japanese (and, by extension, Koreans). None seemed to mind the Germans, but they detested the East Asian peoples. I didn't pry, but I learned why over the years.

From what I've gathered and read over the years, it would have been horrific on a scale not seen since the Great War - probably worse. They'd have fought for every inch of that land and it would have taken years.

>>32447916
Well that pic is true when it comes to Nanking and Unit 731...

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>>32446237

>>32446236
>Seeing as how Korea and Vietnam went in the decades that followed, I wouldn't be surprised if Operation Downfall would have been a total failure either way.

Japan was isolated. Korea and Viet Nam were sideshows with Europe being the important theater. It is wrong to compare the two.

In total war the enemy civilians are part of the enemy force, and all Japs were trained to resist invasion. In total war the idea of laws outlawing victory is absurd. That's for UN recreational wars. In serious, total war you are willing to kill absolutely every man, woman and child to win because you must win. Refusing to use nukes would have been treason, and rather silly since a nuke is only a very large explosive with a radiation bonus.

US firebombings had already surpassed the firebreak distinction of yielding more destruction than the Hiroshimoot and Nagasaki raids.

There is no reason to spare civilians. They all supported Hirohito. It was his war though Tojo played fall guy and MacArthur played along. Any Jap that lived owed its life to American generosity (and fear of the Soviets of course!).

This is a weeb board of young people. I'm a bit older and grew up around WWII vets when they were throughout the US workforce. Their view of real Japs is pretty different from weeb view of the country and people atomic weapons tamed. The modern Jap is very much a US creation. Fat Man and Little Boy gave you 4chan and the amusingly bent modern Jap society. Be thankful.

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>>32446642
>Would have taken years to build enough stockpile

>from 1952 to 1958 the UK literally produced on average 9 operational fission weapons per year plus their thermonuclear testing needs using only two breeder piles
>the US had 3 Hanford piles by Feb 45

also plutonium is bred from cheap non-fissile U-238 not enriched uranium you retard

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>>32446533

>Anon posts lengthy, detailed answer to OPs question on the military outcome of Downfall
>only answer is "muh degeneracy"

Kindly fuck off back to /pol/ where you belong

>>32446205
It would be horrendously bloody for everyone involved. Disregarding Japan's still sizeable military strength, civilians would stage attacks against American forces, including having schoolgirls charge them with fucking bamboo spears. Eventually, US forces would tire of taking casualties from civilians, and there would be no chances taken with any civilians. They'd have likely been shot on sight. It would have practically been a war of extermination.

Would the US have stomached the casualties? Probably not forever. Still, such casualties would be stomached for a while, at least. Chemical weapons would probably be used before giving in. Japan would likely be completely covered in chemical weapons. With that, the Allies would win the conflict. Japan itself would likely become a desolate wasteland following the conclusion of this conflict.

So to put it mildly, it would have been the most horrific conflict the world has ever seen, probably by a wide margin.

>>32448143
isn't that the facial abuse whore?

Think there would have been a chance of pressing pow Germans into US service?

>>32448156
i wonder if she'll manage to hide the fact that she got face fucked on camera from whoever decides to marry her.

>>32448178

Seeing as her real name pulls up the faciabuse scene her boyfriends either knows or is a luddite in for a rude awakening one day.

>>32447880
You only want to bitch about the US. Completely forgetting the British bombing of cities or the Japanese. Go take another dick faggot

>>32446278
Anon, your post is so ass backwords i dont know where to begin.

The americans were the one who held the japs to the soviet fire, not the other way around.

The americans did not capitulate to Japanese terms, it was the other way around.

The only reason tojo (and others) were not hung was because the Japanese population was more pacified with them alive. They will still removed from power.

>>32446533
>Retarded opinions like this one are how US ended up losing in Vietnam.

Retards like you should study war instead of teenangst and ignorance.

Viet Nam was a SECONDARY theater and a distraction from Europe. Europe is the center of modern civilization. Nam is a backwater.
Viet Nam had nil strategic value. It still doesn't.
Viet Nam is next to China so we could not interdict aid from the north.
Viet Nam is next to Cambodia and Laos, where we could not interdict logistics effectively over time.
Viet Nam was influenced by unwillingness to bomb the paddy dikes and starve the North. We could, and should, have done that.

Japan was and is isolated by sea. We'd destroyed most of their shipping and nearly all their surface navy. That was the equivalent of taking out Vietnamese agriculture.
The American people were fine with finishing off Japan. Any measures would have been acceptable, and with a trapped enemy the logical step after securing a bridgehead would be extermination of everything that moved. We basically did that in North Korea and the FEAF ran out of targets. North Korea is next to friendly China. Japan is next to water and was friendless.

The US could have contained what was left of the Jap forces local to invasion sites, let the rest rot on the vine as done with Pacific islands we didn't need, then commence to killing so many Japs their last aircraft would have to rise to the bait. Defending German cities bled out the Luftwaffe similarly. They had to engage.

The US in WWII was, due to total war, led by real men like Curtis LeMay. Only Stalinist ruthlessness is suitable to total war. We had it, we used it and we won.

>>32447934

>out breeding

Never heard of it. Educate me pls

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>>32448197
kek

i wonder if she's proud of that or if there's another reason why she didn't change her name.

>>32446573
>After countless proxy wars, saboteurs poising the youth, The Communists pushing the rise of radical Islam (Peace movement) AND nuclear proliferation. The allies lost by a thousand cuts when they could have had everything.

Those are trifles compared to real wars, just ordinary cost of competition. Occupying an enormous, and capable, and experienced Russia would have been a fool's errand of Napoleonic proportions.

All the casualties of the Cold War, blowback and 9/11 are a fucking joke compared to the battles between the Wehrmacht and Soviets. Americans on the end of a very long LAND logisitics line into Russia would be very different then seaborne transport with naval dominance.

>>32446573
>The allies lost by a thousand cuts when they could have had everything.

The allies didn't lose, because the USSR does not exist anymore.

>>32448232

Seeing as she did it to spite her parents (her dad is a rich GS banker in NYC and had a tiger mom), she probably doesn't care much. Seems like shes doing art and art history so I doubt her past would hurt her unless she wants to collaborate with more conservative art history institutes that might get embarrassed to have her name on something.

>invading the mainland instead of Korea first

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When I clicked I had hopes of this being a good thread. Then some nuke fag derailed and since post two, the entire thing is shit.

Thanks guys. Fuck you.

>>32446963
BAOR in the 1980s was impressive. I was at Sembach AB working Broncos then. Good Cold War times but read some Sir John Hackett for an idea of what war would have looked like. He did an excellent job.

https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-John-Winthrop-Hackett/dp/0025471600

>>32447934
> don't think you realize how small populations have to be for actual inbreeding.

It was on a voluntary basis. Genesis of the term "bluebloods", etc., etc.

This well-documented inbreeding wasn't because of a lack of potential mates, but for social and political reasons.

When the peasantry did it, you wound up with another village idiot. When the peerage did it, France got a new king. Added bonus, his sister with the lazy eye got married off to her club footed cousin who sat on the Spanish throne. Their daughter would be engaged to her half-uncle over on the Hohenzollern side of the family. And so on.

Common folks outbreeding don't cause anywhere near the problems that pure lineages do.

>>32448204
Tojo was executed, but not many other Japs because we needed them.

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This is a very good book on the subject.

- covers the reason why bombing was switched to firebombing

- Intel gathering

- planned combat operations for both Allied and Japanese forces

- The fight over to invade or lay siege

- Issues for both Japanese military and civilian aspects of government.

I would highly recommend.

>>32446240
>allies misunderstood how deadly fallout was
Not accurate.

>>32447387

20 million is the conservative estimate, 40 million is the critical estimate.

40 million is 1/4th their 1939 population.

Including things like deserters being shot, people being shot for crimes because the war forced them to steal food, Gulag deaths, purges, political assassinations, etc can all be considered war deaths because war causes a lot more turmoil than people think.

Basically almost any Russian that didn't die from natural causes between 1939 and 1945 can be called a war casualty, and a ton of natural deaths like mother's dying during child birth, people dying from disease, etc can be considered war deaths because of wartime shortages. People that froze to death because their home was on the front line were war deaths.

One out of every four Russians dead is basically the legit high end estimate of deeply critical minds. 20 million Russians dead is pure propaganda to make Russia look like it was stronger than it was/didn't desperately need foreign help as much as it did.

For fucks sake their army couldn't beat Finland without ridiculously unacceptable losses and the Nazi push through western Russia disrupted almost all their decent farmland and livestock.

Think about how many deaths happened to unskilled laborers trying to do a job way beyond their skill level, like setting up a mobile factory and being crushed, accidentally breaking a power hammer and getting shot, cutting off your foot because you stood in the wrong place and you got the lame horse treatment, etc

WW2 was absolutely downright inhumanely BRUTAL and the Russians got it worse than anyone because of the political climate.

After just finishing playing Shogun 2 as the Date clan, I can tell you that they will have one hell of a fight ahead of them unless they take Kyoto quickly.

>>32446642
>Nukes only got scary when ICBMs became a thing.
Are you kidding?

>>32448150
Not against the Japs. Iirc, that was going to be a US show with a couple of divisions of UK troops grudgingly promised by Churchill.

>>32448437
Thank you. I was going to react, but figured it was pointless against stupidity.

>>32448231
Opposite of inbreeding. Picking mates with no or very remote relation to each other. Mutts, in other words.

>>32448506
Mutts tend to quickly become the most optimized dogs for a local area. You dont ever see stray pure breeds.

>>32446240
What both sides? The Japanese didn't have anything that could remotely resemble an atomic weapons program.

>>32448506

Whats wrong with that?

Sometimes it works wonders.

Look at Markiplier. Half German half Korean, and very fucking handsome. It worked out damn fine for him.

Honesty I don't care if people wanna inbreed or outbreed so long as its within acceptable biblical guidance there are no moral issues.

My only issue with selectively breeding humans is I do not want a genetically enforced caste system.

I believe humanity can conquer and control its genetic code and make it all an obsolete shitfest anyways. True self control.

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>>32446240
>atomic weapons on both sides

?

how are they going to manage that?

I don't think you realise how raped Japan got by total submarine warfare

they took much much worse losses than the brits and unlike the Britain(the former "workshop of the world") Japan couldn't build enough new shipping and destroyer tonnage to replace losses

not to mention they couldn't just buy war supplies from the US like Britain could

>>32446336
>>Soviet manpower was in tatters
At 45 the Soviets had a fucking immense surplus, eager combatants and a raging boner for more war. The only thing that kept them from rolling over the rest of Europe with the rape train was the Allies.

>>32447839
Nothing of value, just like the rest of their history. Aside from nuclear subs, the Russians have never really managed to be relevant in any sort of naval warfare.

>>32448397
>20 million is the conservative estimate, 40 million is the critical estimate.

We can quibble over that 40 million number. My understanding is that there were 26 million acknowledged war deaths, from all causes. Then there were almost 12 million deaths due to natural causes, among people born before the war. And an additional 4+million childhood deaths among children born during the war.

Granted, the researchers stipulate that some unknown percentage of these deaths were attributable to wartime conditions.

I haven't checked yet, to see how these mortality figures compare to similar populations in non-war zones.

>>32447934
>being taught genetics by /pol/

>>32448708
>muh /pol/
lost on your way to reddit?

>>32446205
It would have been a massacre for the gooks. They were woefully underequipped and they would be facing an army that was experienced and at the top of its game, unlike the Germans in France.

>>32446240
>the allies misunderstood how deadly fallout was.
I don't think you have any idea how deadly fallout was. There's fewer than 2000 deaths attributable to atom bombs fallout and that's based on increase in cancer rate over like 60 years. You are an imbecile.

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>>32448574
>>32448619

He means from radiation exposure in advancing troops after US tactical nuclear deployment, IE Desert Rock tests. Not that I think very many would have really died from it, long term effects sure.

>>32448032
Just out of genuine curiosity.

What was the veterans views and their opinions about jaoan compaired to today's young people's views and opinions on japan?

>>32448923
>Japan

Goddamn phone

>>32448533
I didn't say or imply that mutts are a bad thing. It's natural selection, picking the optimal traits to survive local environmental conditions. Mating for social or political reasons is demonstrably retarded.

Racial purity enthusiasts are clinically retarded. There's a reason why they're overwhelmingly underemployed and undereducated. They peaked in 9th grade, bred by 11th grade, dropped out and in the system by age 18.

>>32448580
Nothing is wrong with it. It beats the hell out of what was going on amongst the ruling class in Europe for a few centuries.

>>32448752
So why was the fight for Pacific islands like Tarawa, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal so bloody if it was going to be so easy?

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>>32447880

And that's just Japan.

>>32449177
Because the Japs were well dug into very defensive terrain.

>>32450457
And they wouldn't have found or made that in the home islands? Look at how the fight for Manila went.

>>32446296
>Maintaining supply lines over the Atlantic was not going to be easy.

Lol against what fucking navy?

>>32450827
You'd definitely have seen some similar fighting in parts of the Home Islands, but given the size of the Home Islands, it wouldn't have been across the entire area. Further, from my understanding, they hadn't prepared enough fighting positions of the caliber that were faced on Iwo Jima, for example, once you got far enough inland, at least.
Manila was somewhat hampered because of stronger buildings and an unwillingness to use heavy artillery and bombing out of a desire to preserve the city. That restriction didn't last, of course.

>>32446296
The Soviets could barely maintain their own supply lines by the end of the war

>>32448619
I like that vid. I thought they'd be using rivet guns at that time. Wonder how deaf those guys got from the noise ..

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>>32449523
Dresden 2 electric boogaloo when

>>32450984
It must be said that at the end of any large offensive your supply lines tend to be stretched as fuck. No shit they were having major supply line problems at the end there.

>>32447834
>somebody fell off a tower and died :^)

>>32448437
I appreciate you chiming in but you usually bother to type a more informative post and the board could use more of those.

I enjoy this conversation but I wish people could stop babbling about bamboo spears as if it has any effect on a modern army. Charge a military unit with bamboo spears. Go ahead.

>>32447582
I have no idea what my grandpa was doing during the war but if he weren't already conscripted already he'd be forced to. And no panchinko dad means no me

>>32451597
Casualties would occur, but would be statistically irrelevant. However, you're completely missing the point when people say that. It is mentioned because of four basic reasons. It goes to show that the Japanese would use whatever they had to fight the invaders. It shows that the Japanese civilians were willing to fight, and that every one of them could be reasonably expected to be an enemy combatant. It illustrates that EXTREMELY heavy casualties would be inflicted upon the Japanese civilian populace. Although it must be stated, at that point pretty much everyone had been inducted into various organizations, so there technically were no civilians. Everyone was legally a combatant. Finally, it illustrates just how fucked the situation was that this was planned on a vast scale and the utter devastation that would result from its natural outcome.

>>32447880
>taking moral high ground with america killing japanese civilians
One, You go total war mode expect everything to be bombed.
Two, Don't you dare try to take the high ground when it comes to shit japan did. Those fuckers deserved much much worse for the shit they did. Rape of Nanking, multiple huge massacres across the pacific, dropping bioweapons on the chinese, and much much more

>>32447983
>Nanking a Chinese lie
The Americans who were in that city and documented everything want to speak with you

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>>32451574
I was asking if he was kidding before I spent the time to answer.

>>32446268
>The US already had no qualms killing civilians in both Europe and Asia

true.

>unapologetically bombed Switzerland then gleefully commented on how many Swiss civilian dead he created

Source. That sounds very un-eisenhowerish. I smell a /pol/tard

>>32446237
>>32447880
>>32449523

The Japanese were responsible for almost 20 million civilian deaths in China, which is equivalent to the entire modern day population of Romania.

And we all know what Germany was responsible for, unless you want to go down the holocaust denier route, in which case, >>>/pol/

Every power involved in WW2 targeted civilians. The US did it to a much lesser extent than any other major power, and it was arguably necessary to save allied lives.

>>32446236
This fucker has a very low IQ.

>>32447582
>His squadron was slated to be in the first wave of the invasion, they were expecting 90% losses.

Sorry, no they weren't. That 90% losses number may have applied to ground troops, but Japanese air resistance was virtually nonexistent by that point.

>>32446487
>It would not be an economic powerhouse instead it would likely be mostly making toys and providing unskilled labor.

for around 20 years after wwii japan did exactly that.

>>32451913
>Those fuckers deserved much much worse for the shit they did

Collective guilt is a stupid concept. The A-bombs weren't dropped on the people who perpetrated the Rape of Nanking or Unit 731. That's just something you say to help you feel better about melting the skin off babies and little kids.

>>32450984
Still a hell of a lot easier and faster to ship your men and equipment via rail and road than by sea.

>>32451843
>so there technically were no civilians.

When you say something this dumb it should be obvious even to you. Do you really envision a 2-year old chucking spears?

>>32452710

>what Germany was responsible for

I'm not even mad, but you need a little education.

The Soviets had a tendency to use German weapons to execute people before burying them in mass graves.

This has been found to be the case.

It has allegedly been found to be the case that very few mass graves of Jews have been found that Nazis did.

It is very very true that as a racial war the Holocaust can not be denied but the death toll certainly can. Its been proven to be propaganda.

And what's worse is as an American I want the six million to be true... That would mean Americans were heroes and liberators. That would mean I'm descended from bona fide Hollywood movie good guys.

But its not.

A few bad apples in Nazi Germany spoiled the bunch and killed far less humans than regular armies. They certainly didn't kill 6 million people with delousing agents in tin and brick shacks.

That kind of cruelty can not be carried out quickly or sustain hearts that believed in nationalist socialism. Reeducation and deportation would have been priority along with compensation for damages guilty Jews owed Germany for.

>>32453109

Are you incapable of imagining 2 year olds being used as human shields?

What about 2 year olds tied to rubble that's booby trapped?

People can be devilishly ingenious and crueler than anything ignorant optimists can imagine.

This post isn't anti Japanese, anti war, or anti human... Its just a post that says when an impossible mission takes priority above all else, nobody is prepared for the consequences.

>>32446336

Yeah, too bad the western powers were democracies whose people were just tired of war and wanted their men to come home. There's a reason Churchill got smacked by Attlee in the elections, you fucking downie.

>>32453057

Who hasn't? Arkansas here. I worked at a toy store this Christmas and actually had customers trying to find old school pioneer/frontier toys, like wooden tops and wood carved ducks in a row tied together with feet that went "clack clack" as you pulled them along.

But being reduced to such primitive abilities as you can only make that is a disgrace no nation should endure.

I guess Japan was different. They deliberately waited to modernize. They happily lived life like they had a thousand years then one emperor got a wild hair up his ass and they got it all and went a little too crazy.

The imperial Japanese were still people. I think simply discipline, morals, and military virtues were trodden over by sheer numbers of uncontrollable soldiers like it was an epidemic.

Imagine America got science fiction level tech suddenly.

We would likely try the impossible and attempt world domination by conquest. What democracy wouldn't?

>>32446237
bait.

>>32453891

Is it the same reason Patton was assassinated?

Wanting to invade Russia when its weakest??

There's always another dumbass mission. Always.

And government jobs don't pay shit.

>>32446237
It's pretty funny that people think like this.

As far as i know the Japanese would have had no qualms about using civilians as soldiers or infact as suicide bombers or something alike.

>>32446237
>American invasion of Japan results in millions dead and the complete destruction of Japanese society as well as a split communist/capitalist Japan.
>This is a far more moral thing than ending the war with the atomic bomb.

this is low power bait desu

>>32446205
Why not just continue dropping nukes until they surrendered? The soviets would come from the north aswell anyway and crush the Hokkaido area because all of the jap troops were south. They would probably steamroll trough Manchuria aswell. The jap troop numbers were heavily overestimated aswell, most of them were kids and farmers with old equipment.

>>32446240
>fallout
The majority of a nuclear weapon's energy is released as light, heat, and shockwave. The actual fallout is a nuisance relatively speaking, but ultimately not as deadly compared to the energies released immediately after detonation.

>>32447880
But the alternative would have surely been worse. What with complete and utter fanaticism and all.

>>32448350
This. Just finished it today actually. Pretty sad reading to be honest, and the last 2 chapters kinda leaves you sitting with a "holy shit"-impression

>>32454283
Wait wasn't nuking the alternative for this very operation? Or was this for if the Japanese decided not to surrender even with the nukes?

>>32453875
>Are you incapable of imagining 2 year olds being used as human shields?
>What about 2 year olds tied to rubble that's booby trapped?


Of course I can, but that's irrelevant to your earlier statement that there were technically no civilians. Neither of those has them acting as combatants, and neither really makes that statement any less ridiculous. You should stop saying it.

>>32447582
My grandfather got to skip the war, thanks to Canadian Recruitment / Conscription Law, as the first born son of a farmer stays on the farm to produce food.

His brothers though we're shipped to Italy to fight there, then moved to the low countries during the Canadian Army race along the coast to Denmark.

>>32454332

I was just amazed that the Japanese had plans and material for a mass suicide op against bases in the Philippines.

>>32447880
Which is far fewer than the Japs massacred in China.

>>32448923
The Pacific combat vets utterly despised Jap troops and all Jap leadership. They had zero regrets about nuking Japan. For example because Jap's often played possum it was considered necessary to kill wounded rather than attempt to capture them unless ordered were given to obtain prisoners. Jap mutilation of US wounded before killing them was standard with very few exceptions. Japanese holdouts sometimes cannibalized living wounded captives and a few downed aircrew. Now Jap sadism is commodified into children's cartoons. It was different IRL as the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, etc, etc found out first hand. Nazis were sometimes sadists but their violence usually had some military objective even if it was killing US PWs for convenience at Malmedy.

The WWII Jap was considered to be an extreme sadist based on combat experience. There was plenty of propaganda, but propaganda posters survive the war so modernfag opinion sees propaganda while ignoring the experience. Young people today or even when I was growing up in the 1970s don't study history in detail. I did from a very young age and always listened to any vets who would talk to me.

Modern children in the US are very sheltered and the foreign is considered exotic. When people consider something exotic that destroys their critical thinking. Weebs in particular crave the exotic because they are bored, lack self-esteem, and retreat from life challenges and personal growth into fantasy. That's also why Japanese fantasy is what it is. I wouldn't want to be a doomed, bored Jap salaryman living like a caged squirrel either. Ameriweebs escape their self-imposed shite reality using Jap tools. Fun is fun but confusing cartoon fiction with anything else is intellectually dishonest. If you want to learn about fact, fiction should be avoided.

The further people get from an event the more they care about using that event to affirm their own UNCONNECTED bullshit.

>>32450855
>Lol against what fucking navy?

Against nature and the real limitations of the existing cargo fleet PLUS getting enough of those supplies to the fronts WHILE sustaining extremely long logistics from the Channel ports.

Logistics isn't magic. Study it more. Warriors do.

>>32451923
>The Americans who were in that city and documented everything want to speak with you

The Nazi who sheltered Chinese, and whose report to Germany was ignored covered Nanking from the Axis side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe

>>32453047
>That 90% losses number may have applied to ground troops, but Japanese air resistance was virtually nonexistent by that point.

Your after-the-fact expectation of low casualties is not THEIR prior expectation of high casualties. Reserve Jap aircraft quantities and AAA were unknown. Ground attack birds were certainly vulnerable to flak.

>>32446205
>How does /k/ think the invasion of Japan in 1945-46 would have gone?

It would have been beautiful. Millions of dead civilians.

>>32453047
>Sorry, no they weren't. That 90% losses number may have applied to ground troops, but Japanese air resistance was virtually nonexistent by that point.

At higher altitudes. Low level fighter operations to support ground troops were something Japanese air defense could reach much easier. 90% are still absurdly too high, but there still would have been quite heavy allied casualties in air.

>>32453109
Literally every Jap was legally put into something along the lines of a paramilitary force. By that measure alone, they technically weren't civilians. That's what it means, you dumb cunt.

>>32453069
>Collective guilt is a stupid concept.

You were taught to believe that, but collective support for the Emperor and for conquest IS collective guilt. Collective support for any war effort is collective guilt because the choice to act is made by the collective.

Anti-collective guilt interpretations of events have particular political utility because they allowed "good Japs/Germans" to be embraced and used against Communists. Ritual punishment of a very few "war criminals" (despite many of their actions not violating existing laws) allowed moving forward.

It's useful to pretend collective guilt isn't real despite collective guilty action. It's terribly naive to believe that yourself. MacArthur's philia for Jap culture produced an informed and enlightened Occupation but he knew well what he was doing.

Militarily the US should have withdrawn from Pacific affairs in the 1930s and let Japan destroy China, but there was tremendous US missionary idealization of the Chinese as potential Christians.

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>>32446237
im surprised this hasnt been posted yet

>>32446205
This would have been so cool! Peleliu on a continent scale, during months and months, rivers of blood and prairies of corpses, the end of all reason. An epic page in our history books.

But no, these pussies chose the atomic meme, bim bam and that's it. No glory, no bravery, stupid burgers.

>>32446205
Didn't the Japanese had jet aircraft that used licenses from the Germans Me. 262 to be used against the invasion fleet?

>>32455265
You're thinking of the Kikka. It's similar in appearance to the Me-262, but is notably much smaller than the Me-262, and did not use swept wings.
Worse engines too.

>>32454951
>You were taught to believe that,

wrong.

>but collective support for the Emperor and for conquest IS collective guilt.
thanks for repeating yourself.

>Collective support for any war effort is collective guilt because the choice to act is made by the collective.

Wrong. A collective isn't a being - it's an average. Most Japanese supported the war, but to say they all did it "collectively" is either outright false or utterly meaningless - nursing babies did not support the war in any way, and any method you use to assign guilt to them is bullshit and you should see that plainly.

I'm responsible for my actions, you're responsible for yours, neither of us are responsible for our neighbors actions and our kids aren't responsible for ours. If you believe otherwise it's because you've been brainwashed.

>>32446205
>How does /k/ think the invasion of Japan in 1945-46 would have gone?
link related
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

>>32454882
Japan barely had any fuel for planes by that point, and no trained pilots. The whole reason they started fighting was the need for foreign oil.

>tfw you have a really spicy meme to trigger weebs with but you're phoneposting

>>32446237
>massacreing civillians
I'm tired of this meme. Hiroshima and nagasaki were major industrial centers. It just so happened that major industrial centers are densely populated.

>>32453792
wow

>don't have to kill all of the japansese civillians
>radiation from the bombs infests the drinking water and causes thousands of artists to make trap doujinsnfor my amusement
I see literally nothing wrong with the atomic bombs.

>>32455316
>implying it has anything to do with collective guilt
>implying the atomic bomns weren't just dropped to bring the war to a quicker end and avoid millions of further allied and japanese casualties

>>32456383
Not to mention headquarters for a whole regional army with 20 000 troops and major shipping docks

>>32456504
This
We didn't bomb places because we were aiming for civillians, we bombed places because they were strategically valuable to the enemy.

>>32446373
More like killing hundreds of thousands of civillians or killing tens of millions of civillians and hundreds of thousands of your own men.

>>32451923
And I don't want to listen to anything those liars have to say.

>>32456544
Of course I have to go to the game to play the game and I have to my money back at the time and I can't play it anymore so I can't even play the same game every night and it doesn't even matter what I do and I don't like it when you do that and I can't stop playing the games I play it to the game I but I can't wait for it too much fun to

>>32456728
>nanking never happened
And hiroshima did?

>>32456750
Yeah.

>>32456383
>>32456504
>>32456524

Also Japanese civilians did work inside of their homes or neighborhoods as well as a form of cottage industry.

>>32454951

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion about collective support with regards to a country that has had no sense of democratic rule at any point in its admittedly very long history.

>>32451054
do it again Bomber Harris

>>32446768
>spinning the words of a great leader to support contemporary nativist double-think

Kek. If you think the immigrants to the US aren't assimilating, you obviously haven't seen enclaves in other parts of the world, such as in Europe.
Honoring your heritage and being a red blooded patriot aren't mutually exclusive, and assimilation doesn't mean total uniformity.

>>32457722
He's right, just because other countries have it worse doesn't mean that immigrants nowadays are doing a good job of assimilating.

>>32448752
Look at the battle for Okinawa and scale that up by a factor of ten. The US commanders and troops were shaken to the core by it.

>>32448437
Hey OPpenheimer good to see you

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>>32446205

>>32448779
There's also the small matter that airbursts produce negligible amounts of fallout. It has too much time and space to spread out/decay to a non-lethal concentration before falling to the ground.

The nuke has to go off at or near the ground (or water) to produce dangerous fallout. Too high (or too low, i.e., buried/deep underwater), and the fallout doesn't come into contact with people in any meaningful concentration.

The radiation deaths from Hiroshima and Nagasaki were all from prompt radiation, and that was only an issue because the bombs were so inefficient. Within a few months or years (so, possibly too late for Downfall), improvements in bomb design made the lethal range of the thermal pulse larger than lethal range of the gamma radiation, which made radiation sickness a moot point except in odd cases (e.g., CROSSROADS BAKER, where sailors inside a gun turret would have survived the pulse and blast wave, only for the radiation to have gotten them).

>>32452626
Wow, I've never seen that--source?

Is that a purely counter-force plan, or does it contain counter-value targets as well?

>>32453047
Doesn't necessarily mean 90% on the first day, like some of the paratrooper estimates. It means 90% don't make it through their entire tour, which is statistically a lot more realistic; see: Memphis Belle.

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>>32446237

>>32456750
All those retards crying about Nanking should consider what would happen if Chinese Army managed to occupy some Jap City

>>32452626
Not nuking Africa just because?

Clearly whitey is just pure evil!

>>32446642
>5-6 years of war at minimum

Sure the soviets, that had lost entire generations of men. An army sustained by US food, trucks and every goddamn train in the soviet union. Would have put up a reasonable fight againt the allied nations who's industrial power was just turning up to proper war footing in 1945

>>32453069
>feeling bad about curb stomping your enemies

LOL you have to be a liberal

>>32446431
>>32447832
I'm convinced McNamara was a soviet plant.

>>32446237
>>32446205
I wish we had dropped a third nuke just to get that magic number.

SUPER HELLCATS

SUPER HELLCATS COVERING JAPAN

SUPER HELLCATS DOING SICK JUMPS OVER THE PILED BODIES OF 8 YEAR OLD JAPANESE SUICIDE BOMBERS AND OLD LADIES WHO TRIED TO USE BAMBOO STICKS TO DEFEAT SUPER HELLCATS

>>32460175
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/

>China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper

China's announcement last weekend of an Air Defense Identification Zone, which includes disputed areas of the East China Sea, has ratcheted up tensions between China and her neighbors, leading some to believe war is imminent.

The new air defense area includes the airspace above the hotly disputed cluster of tiny islands known as the Diaoyu to China and the Senkaku to the Japanese. International reaction to the ADIZ, particularly from Japan and its ally the U.S., has been uniformly defiant. In addition to official statements from Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, Reuters reported Tuesday that two U.S. military aircraft have flown around the disputed islands in direct defiance of China’s ADIZ.

“We have conducted operations in the area of the Senkakus,” spokesman Col. Steve Warren said, using the Japanese name for the islands. In addition to declaring the zone’s wide boundaries, Chinese military forces announced that all air travel in the designated ADIZ must be reported to avoid “emergency defensive measures in response.” The U.S. did the flyover without addressing the demands made by China. “We have continued to follow our normal procedures, which include not filing flight plans, not radioing ahead and not registering our frequencies,” Warren continued.

http://www.ibtimes.com/china-engage-six-inevitable-wars-involving-us-japan-india-more-according-pro-government-chinese

v.s. Philippines,Vietnam,Indonesia etc
v.s. Taiwan
v.s. ASEAN
v.s. India
v.s. Japan
v.s. Mongolia/Russia
v.s. U.S.

>>32447997
>man claims Americans committed war crimes
>somehow this is denying Japanese war crimes
all of my wat

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>>32462537
>All for the revenge
China is not yet a unified great power. This is a humiliation to the Chinese people, a shame to the children of the Yellow Emperor. For the sake of national unification and dignity, China has to fight six wars in the coming fifty years. Some are regional wars; the others may be total wars. No matter what is the nature, each one of them is inevitable for Chinese unification.

>The 1st War: Unification of Taiwan (Year 2020 to 2025)

Though we are enjoying peace on the two sides of the Taiwan Strait, we should not daydream a resolution of peaceful unification from Taiwan administration (no matter it is Chinese Nationalist Party or Democratic Progressive Party). Peaceful unification does not fit their interests while running for elections. Their stance is therefore to keep to status quo (which is favourable to the both parties, each of them can get more bargaining chips) For Taiwan, “independence” is just a mouth talk than a formal declaration, while “unification” is just an issue for negotiation than for real action. The current situation of Taiwan is the source of anxiety to China, since everyone can take the chance to bargain more from China.

China must work out a strategy to unify Taiwan within the next ten years, that is, by 2020. By then, China will have to send an ultimatum to Taiwan, demanding the Taiwanese to choose the resolution of peaceful unification (the most preferred epilogue for the Chinese) or war (an option forced to be so) by 2025. For the purpose of unification, China has to make preparation three to five years earlier. So when the time comes, the Chinese government must act on either option, to give a final answer to the problem.

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>>32462575
From the analysis of the current situation, Taiwan is expected to be defiant towards unification, so military action will be the only solution. This war of unification will be the first war under the sense of modern warfare since the establishment of the “New China”. This war will be a test to the development of the People’s Liberation Army in modern warfare. China may win this war easily, or it may turn out to be a difficult one. All depend on the level of intervention of the U.S. and Japan. If the U.S. and Japan play active roles in aiding Taiwan, or even make offensives into Chinese mainland, the war must become a difficult and prolonged total war. On the other hand, if the U.S. and Japan just watch and see, the Chinese army can easily defeat the Taiwanese. In this case, Taiwan can be under control within three months. Even if the U.S. and Japan step in in this stage, the war can be finished within six months.

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>>32462585
>The 2nd War: “Reconquest” of Spratly Islands (Year 2025 to 2030)

After unification of Taiwan, China will take a rest for two years. During the period of recovery, China will send the ultimatum to countries surrounding the Islands with the deadline of 2028. The countries having disputes on the sovereignty of Islands can negotiate with China on preserving their shares of investments in these Islands by giving up their territorial claims. If not, once China declares war on them, their investments and economic benefits will be taken over by China.

At this moment, the South East Asian countries are already shivering with Chinese military unification of Taiwan. On one hand, they will be sitting by the negotiation table, yet they are reluctant to give up their interests in the Islands. Therefore, they will be taking the wait-and-see attitude and keep delaying to make final decision. They will not decide whether to make peace or go into war until China takes any firm actions. The map below shows the situation of territorial claims over the Spratly Islands. (Map omitted)

Besides, the U.S. will not just sit and watch China “reconquesting” the Islands. In the 1st war mentioned above, the U.S. may be too late to join the war, or simply unable to stop China from reunifying Taiwan. This should be enough to teach the U.S. a lesson not to confront too openly with China. Still, the U.S. will aid those South East Asian countries, such as Vietnam and the Philippines, under the table. Among the countries surrounding the South China Sea, only Vietnam and the Philippines dare to challenge China’s domination. Still, they will think twice before going into war with China, unless they fail on the negotiation table, and are sure they can gain military support from the U.S.

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>>32462598
The best option for China is to attack Vietnam, since Vietnam is the most powerful country in the region. Beating Vietnam can intimidate the rest. While the war with Vietnam goes on, other countries will not move. If Vietnam loses, others will hand their islands back to China. If the opposite, they will declare war on China.

Of course, China will beat Vietnam and take over all the islands. When Vietnam loses the war and its islands, others countries, intimidated by Chinese military power, yet still with greediness to keep their interests, will negotiate with China, returning the islands and declaring allegiance to China. So China can build the ports and place troops on these islands, extending its influence into the Pacific Ocean.

Up till now, China has made a thorough breakthrough of the First Island Chain and infiltrated the Second one, Chinese aircraft carrier can have free access into the Pacific Ocean, safeguarding its own interests.

>>32446205
Us would not invade Japan because they had anime girls.

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>>32446205
Completely unnecessary along with the nukes/firebombing

Stop trusting jewish victor history

>>32462585
>Even if the U.S. and Japan step in in this stage, the war can be finished within six months.

Doubtful, due to US standoff range.

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>>32462610
>The 3rd War: “Reconquest” of Southern Tibet (Year 2035 to 2040) ,defeating enemy India and possibility of Nuclear War

China and India share a long border, but the only sparking point of conflicts between the two countries is only the part of Southern Tibet. China has long been the imaginary enemy of India. The military objective of India is to surpass China. India aims to achieve this by self-development and importing advanced military technologies and weapons from the U.S, Russia and Europe, chasing closely to China in its economic and military development.

In India, the official and media attitude is more friendly towards the U.S, Russia and Europe, and is repellent or even hostile against China. This leads to unresolvable conflicts with China. On the other hand, India values itself highly with the aids from the U.S, Russia and Europe, thinking it can beat China in wars. This is also the reason of long lasting land disputes.

Twenty years later, although India will lag behind more compared to China in military power, yet it is still one of the few world powers. If China uses military force to conquer Southern Tibet, it has to bear some losses. In my opinion, the best strategy for China is to incite the disintegration of India. By dividing into several countries, India will have no power to cope with China.

Of course, such plan may fail. But China should at least try its best to incite Assam province and once conquered Sikkim to gain independence, in order to weaken the power of India. This is the best strategy.

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>>32462636
>Pakistan-China alliance will defeat India
The second best plan is to export advanced weapons to Pakistan, helping Pakistan to conquer Southern Kashmir region in 2035 and to achieve its unification. While India and Pakistan are busy fighting against each other, China should take a Blitz to conquer Southern Tibet, at the time occupied by India.

India will not be able to fight a two front war, and is deemed to lose both. China can retake Southern Tibet easily, while Pakistan can control the whole Kashmir. If this plan cannot be adopted, the worst case is direct military action to take back Southern Tibet.

After the first two wars, China has rested for around ten years, and has become a world power both in terms of military and economy. There will only be the U.S. and Europe (on the condition that it becomes a united country. If not, this will be replaced by Russia. But from my point of view, European integration is quite probable) able to cope with China in the top three list in world power.

After taking back Taiwan and Spratly Islands, China has great leap forward in its military power in army, navy, air force and space warfare. China will be on the leading role in its military power, may be only second to the U.S. Therefore, India will lose this war.

>>32446373
>implying those were the only choices

Japan's only obstacle to surrender was it's internal conflict. No amount of external pressure could make them surrender unless they decided to internally.

They wanted to preserve the emperor and the japanese people as their only 2 surrender conditions while internally they had to defeat their own generals to allow the surrender.

Nukes, firebombing and invasion were all unnecessary and irrelevent to surrender

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>>32462653
>The 4th War: “Reconquest” of Diaoyu Island and Ryukyu Islands (Year 2040 to 2045) to shut Cheaky Japan(and U.S. indirectly) up

In the mid-21st century, China emerges as the real world power, accompanied with the decline of Japan and Russia, stagnant U.S. and India and the rise of Central Europe. That will be the best time for China to take back Diaoyu Island and Ryukyu Islands. The map below is the contrast between ancient and recent Diaoyu Island and Ryukyu Islands (map omitted).

Many people may know that Diaoyu Island is the land of China since the ancient times, but have no idea that the Japanese annexed Ryukyu Island (currently named as Okinawa, with U.S. military base). The society and the government of China is misled by the Japanese while they are discussing on the issues of the East China Sea, such as the “middle-line” set by the Japanese or “Okinawa issue” (Ryukyu Islands in Chinese), by coming to think that Ryukyu Islands are the ancient lands of Japan.

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>>32462678
>U.S.-Japan and Taiwan is shameless and rude

What a shame for such ignorance! From the historical records of Chinese, Ryukyu and other countries (including Japan), Ryukyu has long been the vassal states of China since ancient times, which means the islands are the lands of China. In this case, is the “middle line” set by Japan in the East China Sea justified? Does Japan have anything to do with the East China Sea? (Those who have no idea in these details may refer to “Ryukyu: An indispensable part of China since the ancient times” written by me)

The Japanese has robbed our wealth and resources in the East China Sea and unlawfully occupied Diaoyu Island and Ryukyu Islands for many years, the time will come that they have to pay back. At that time, we can expect that the U.S. will be willing to intervene but has weakened; Europe will keep silent; Russia will sit and watch the fight. The war can end within half of a year with overwhelming victory of China. Japan will have no choice but to return Diaoyu Island and Ryukyu Islands to China. East China Sea becomes the inner lake of China. Who dare to put a finger on it?

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>>32462694
>Russia is China's ally but hidden strong enemy for China

>The 5th War: Unification of Outer Mongolia (Year 2045 to 2050)

Though there are advocates for reunification of Outer Mongolia at the moment, is this idea realistic? Those unrealistic guys in China are just fooling themselves and making a mistake in strategic thinking. This is just no good to the great work of unification of Outer Mongolia.

After taking Taiwan, we should base our territorial claims on the constitution and domain of the Republic of China (some people may raise a question here: why should we base our claims on the constitution and domain of the Republic of China? In such case, isn’t the People’s Republic of China being annexed by the Republic of China? This is a total bullshit. I will say: the People’s Republic of China is China; the Republic of China is China too. As a Chinese, I only believe that unification means power. The way which can protect the Chinese best from foreign aggression is the best way to the Chinese people.

We also need to know that the People’s Republic of China recognizes the independence of Outer Mongolia. Using the constitution and domain of the People’s Republic of China to unify Outer Mongolia is naked aggression. We can only have legitimate cause to military action using the constitution and domain of the Republic of China. What’s more, it is the case after Taiwan being taken over by China. So isn’t it meaningless to argue which entity being unified?). China should raise the issue of unification with Outer Mongolia, and to take propaganda campaigns inside Outer Mongolia. China should also pick the groups advocating the unification, aiding them to take over key posts in their government, and to proclaim Outer Mongolia as the core interests of China upon the settlement of Southern Tibet issue by 2040.

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>>32462706
If Outer Mongolia can return to China peacefully, it is the best result of course; but if China meets foreign intervention or resistance, China should be prepared to take military action. Taiwan model can be useful in this case: giving an ultimatum with deadline in the Year 2045. Let Outer Mongolia to consider the case for few years. If they refuse the offer, then military action takes off.

In this moment, the previous four wars have been settles. China has the political, military and diplomatic power to unify Outer Mongolia. The weakened U.S. and Russia dare not to get involved except diplomatic protests; Europe will take a vague role; while India, Africa and Central Asian countries will remain silent. China can dominate Outer Mongolia within three years’ time. After the unification, China will place heavy troops on frontier to monitor Russia. China will take ten years to build up elemental and military infrastructure to prepare for the claim of territorial loss from Russia.

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>>32462730
>The 6th War: Taking back of lands lost to Russia (Year 2055 to 2060)

The current Sino-Russian relationship seems to be a good one, which is actually a result of no better choice facing the U.S. In reality, the two countries are meticulously monitoring the each other. Russia fears the rise of China threaten its power; while China never forgets the lands lost to Russia. When the chance comes, China will take back the lands lost.

After the victories of the previous five wars by 2050, China will make territorial claims based on the domain of Qing Dynasty (similar way by making use of the domain of the Republic of China to unify Outer Mongolia) and to make propaganda campaigns favoring such claims. Efforts should also be made to disintegrate Russia again.

In the days of “Old China”, Russia has occupied around one hundred and sixty million square kilometre of lands, equivalent to one-sixth of the landmass of current domain of China. Russia is therefore the bitter enemy of China. After the victories of previous five wars, it is the time to make Russians pay their price.

There must be a war with Russia. Though at that time, China has become an advanced power in navy, army, air and space forces, it is nevertheless the first war against a nuclear power. Therefore, China should be well prepared in nuclear weapons, such as the nuclear power to strike Russia from the front stage to the end. When the Chinese army deprives the Russians’ ability to counter strike, they will come to realize that they can no longer match China in the battlefield. They can do nothing but to hand over their occupied lands and to pay a heavy price to their invasions in the past time.

>>32462678
China taking Taiwan is a huge stretch.

China taking Okinawa is a complete pipe dream.

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>>32462754
>The 7th War: War for Hegemony? (after 2060)

>>32446768
I would have loved to help Roosevelt purge Papists from our shores.

>>32448143
>Nukes ended the age of hapas before it could even begin.

t. never been to Hawaii

>>32446237
Here's your (you)

>>32462489
Thanks!

Wow, that was full-out Assured Destruction.

Had it happened probably neither of my parents would be around.
Paternal grandfather was a combat engineer in the Marines and was in most battles except for Iwo Jima (sick). Was on Tinian, and they all had to go to a far away section of the island due to the bomb taking off (not that they knew).
Maternal was in army and would have been part of initial invasion. Instead he never had to see action and was part of occupation force.

>>32462610
The last time China fought a war with Vietnam, it didn't go well for China.

The only thing I can say that would have happened should the Japanese home islands have been invaded by the US is with the number of casualties (American military, Japanese military and Japanese civilian) that Japan would never have been an independent country again. Most likely would have become at least a US territory if not eventually a state.

>>32466056
>Most likely would have become at least a US territory if not eventually a state.
Just like Germany, right? Oh wait

>>32466116
Germany didn't fight to the level of needing to be recolonized. I think Japan might have.

And effectively East Germany was all but in name a colony of the USSR along with almost all of Eastern Europe.

>>32466116
I partially agree with that anon. The war would do horrendous thing's to Japan's population, to the extent that foreign populaces might be needed to repopulate it and take over a lot of the positions vacated by dead Japs. Americans would be the natural choice. Thus, with American citizens and their children now making up a significant portion of Japan's population, we might see Japan become close enough to the US culturally that it would be even more of a puppet state, or eventually even join the Union, like Texas.

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>>32446205

Invading Japan would have been stupid. It would have made much more sense to just have a naval blockade.

>>32451054
do it again bomber harris

>>32447628
They had already run out of pilots before the Hiroshima, the only way they could've caused any real damage would have been through kamikaze runs.

>>32452682
Retard. It's common knowledge in Switzerland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_of_Switzerland_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars#Allied_Bombings_and_Violations

>While American politicians and diplomats tried to minimize the political damage caused by these incidents, others took a more hostile view. Some senior commanders argued that, as Switzerland was "full of German sympathizers", it deserved to be bombed.General Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, even suggested that it was the Germans themselves who were flying captured Allied planes over Switzerland in an attempt to gain a propaganda victory.

>>32469802
where's the part where Eisenhower was gleeful about killing Swiss civilians

>>32462706
>>32462730
>>32462754

You Chicoms are fucking Hilarious.

>>32446642
>Soviets would have eventually developed a bomb anyways.
Fuck off. They only got the bomb in '49 because they jewed us. If they had to work on their own it would've taken much longer. And would defeating the already crippled Soviet really take longer then four years?

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>>32470376
>crippled

Japan would have been able to sue for peace in conditions other than "unconditional surrender".

That said, they'd be thoroughly fucking devastated and the actual timeline where they totally surrendered is a much better outcome for them. A devastated Japan which hasn't been totally subjugated by USA would receive no help of any kind to rebuild or defend against communism.

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Do I have to quote the wikipedia entry talking about how the Allies expected to be evicted from the continent and Britain being bombarded with mass rocket attacks? It's the Red fucking Army, they are not going to be stopped by blockade or bombing.

>>32470622
One army is not the same as another. Towards the end of the war, the Soviets were running out of usable manpower.

>>32470622
>>32470722
Isn't there a difference to the manpower, sizes, and composition of the armies as well?

>>32446278
>and didn't have the country cut in half like Germany.
It wasn't cut in half because no Russian troops landed there.

>>32470774
That's why I said "One army is not the same as the other"

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>>32470784
>[Settings] [Home]
The British and Canadian Armies were certainly having manpower problems of their own, not so sure about the Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944 (Canada)

>>32448276
>>32448232
I never see it get mentioned, but she has an older sister with pretty serious daddy issues as well.
While I never spoke to her personally very often (the older sister) she was a friend of a friend so I found out about Kelly's abuse porn thing as soon as it happened. While I don't know anything first-hand, I'm pretty confident there was some sort of sexual abuse going on in that family. Big sis was borderline crazy, and her latest psychosis or ridiculous drama was always a topic of converation in my friend group. Despite being very wealthy she bought probably the cheapest breast augementation I've ever seen, and the only reason I know this is because she sent me a picture on facebook asking me what i thought of them even though we barely knew each other.
Haven't talked to her in a very long time, but whenever I see an Amelia Wang / Kelly pic pop up on 4chan it reminds me of what a small world this is

>>32446573
>And the means to build more.

And no means to actually deliver them where it actually hurts the Soviets.

>Wrong. USAAC,RAF and CRAF were three Air Forces that outstripped the Soviets.

RAF and CRAF were tuckered out and not worth mentioning just like the rest of the commonwealth by 1945. The Brits had to disband entire divisions to be able to afford running the others even at a low tempo by then. Britan was fucking broke.

The Soviets meanwhile had a bigger and better airforce than the one the USAAF, RAF and CRAF AND VVS just had taken several years to finally grind down.

>So did the Germans and Japanese. Non issue. Zerg rushing with conscripts is a meme.

Yeah, it's a non-issue because allied ground forces in Europe are already utterly outmatched without the Soviets having to draft any more people. Starting shit with the Red Army in 45-46 means the Allies get kicked back over the Channel within weeks, while France has a full-on revolution and both Congress in the US and Parliament in Britain are demanding for heads to roll over the whole debacle.

>>32446755
This is absolutely true

>>32470887
The Americans had manpower to spare, they just had problems getting them trained to the standards they wanted quickly enough. This led to a shortage of combat trained troops, which caused some poor boys who had trained to be clerks to wind up having a rifle tossed in their hands and sent to the frontlines. You ever see Fury? The main character's story was pretty common.

>>32457722

spotted the fucking faggot

>>32470722
They weren't even remotely close to running out of useable manpower, despite having several times as much in the field than the Allies and being just utterly superior to them at carrying out large-scale combat operations by that point.

The western front was a fight between corps. The eastern front was a fight between army groups. Coming to a fight between corps when the other guy is coming for one between army groups means you get stomped flat.

I wonder what the middle east would have looked like in the event the western allies and USSR went to war.. could the Soviets push through to the Suez, and cut off British oil production in the region?

>>32448391
The official plan was that they were going to wait 48 hours before moving into areas that had been nuked because the dangers of radiation weren't well-understood but known to exist. So we'd probably still see a lot of people dying due to radiation exposure, though maybe only in the long run.

>>32470999
>The Soviets meanwhile had a bigger and better airforce than the one the USAAF, RAF and CRAF AND VVS

Delusional slavaboo detected.

>>32471165
>They weren't even remotely close to running out of useable manpower,
If you go through and look, they very much were. There's a reason why Stalin had the men who ran the census killed- the Soviet Union was below the population it wanted/needed even before the war. At the end, they were just about to run out.

>and being just utterly superior to them at carrying out large-scale combat operations by that point.
Disagree with this statement completely. It is true that much of the Soviet planning was predicated on Armies and Army Groups, however you have to understand that while the units have the same name as units on the Western Front, they were drastically different, as were the situations they fought in. Fighting in the Western front was indeed mostly planning on a Corps and Army scale. However, this was in large part due to terrain constraints, not manpower or equipment. The Western Front was a lot of men jammed into a very small area with mountains on one side and large bodies of water on the other. Maneuvering by army groups wasn't even feasible. You're making the claim that the Soviets would be better at that sort of fighting without even the slightest proof behind it.

But let's look at troops, okay? At the end of fighting in Germany, there were about 6.5 million Soviet "Bloc" (for lack of a better word) forces. That .5 million comes from the "Bloc" members. The Western Allies had about 5.5 million soldiers there. France was in the process of mobilizing, and was a relatively fresh manpower source. So in terms of available forces, they're fairly even, with the Soviets having a slight advantage.

However, The Western Allies additionally had millions more men in the Pacific. Even assuming a million men were transferred from Europe to the Pacific by the war's end, there's still 2 million more Americans alone.

So in the end, we have two forces squaring off against each other in constrained terrain that better fits the Western Allies' experience.

>>32471285
I highly doubt that. The Western Allies are better placed to transfer a whole lot more men into the Middle East, which has very defensible terrain along the Russian border. If anything, you might see an Allied attack into the "Soft Russian underbelly". While that attack MIGHT occur overland, personally I think it would be in the form of an amphibious assault in the Black Sea, using forces from the Pacific, who by that point were well experienced in such endeavors. If you ask me, there are three real areas for such an invasion. The first, Romania. I don't like this option. Second, somewhere in the Caucasus, probably in concert with an invasion across said mountain range. Probably just north of Sochi. I'm fairly ambivalent about this one. The third, and more likely, is an amphibious assault into the Crimean Peninsula. Doing this would put Allied forces in a very defensible position, where a smaller force could secure while more forces could be ferried in. I do not believe that would be the only invasion, only the initial one.

Further, and probably more importantly, B-29s based out of the Middle East could hit the factories in the Urals.

>>32446237
>waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
One of these fuckers again.

>>32446268
>Eisenhower unapologetically bombed Switzerland then gleefully commented on how many Swiss civilian dead he created.
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>32471721
Efrikordinetefrizayn

>>32452626
>my home is in fallout zone (southern finland)

WTF i hate the US now!