/thg/ Treadhead General

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>>32420196
OP: As always, feedback, suggestions wanted and appreciated.
We address the second of the “trinity” of German SPAAGs this week, in the form of the Wirbelwind, in all its quadruple gun glory. It is with the Ostwind that the notion of a specialised SPAAG in German service, built specifically for Panzer support, becomes apparent. Prior to the Wirbelwind, with the exception of a few prototypes, mobile AA was an ad hoc affair, with the most advanced of these being the preceding Möbelwagen. However, the Wirbelwind, with its reduced gun size, but far more rapid firing suite of weaponry, reflected the need for AA guns to lay down vast amounts of fire in a small window of opportunity on the frontlines. The Wirbelwind can thus be seen as a straight improvement upon the Möbelwagen, with better protection due to its anti-grenade canvases, sloped, reinforced armour and rearranged crew positions to prevent the horrendous inefficiency of the moving platform that the Möbelwagen was.

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>>32420210
More tank news, as per the new format.
If you have more queries regarding a news story, just point it out, and I’ll further elaborate and provide links.

After rumours that Serbia was intent on acquiring military vehicles from Russia, an agreement has been finalised where Serbia is set to receive both MiG-29 aircraft and T-72 tanks. While the arms are technically being donated, it is understood that Serbia will pay Russian firms to overhaul said equipment, including 30 T-72s and 30 BDRM-2s.

According to Jane’s, more details have emerged regarding Russia’s nascent BMD-5. It is expected to have a completely different layout to its predecessors, up to and including the latest BMD-4M. A significant change is the diesel powerpack being moved to the front , a fix to the issue of having to rely on roof dismounts. Other details include an unmanned weapons system in place of a manned turret, and a fully digitized FCS.

KMW has announced that the Netherlands has awarded it the contract to supply five Leguan AVLBs to the Royal Netherlands Army. These are expected to be delivered between 2019 and 2020, to be converted from existing Leopard 2s.

In an update to Britain’s Strike Brigade restructure, it has been revealed that the two brigades will not be able to rely on organic artillery support from the outset, and instead must depend on detachments from other formations, services or allies. This has raised concern over the efficacy of the Strike Brigade structure, especially with a key pillar of the Strike Brigade being its integrated artillery regiment.

And that’s all for now.

>>32420196
Those things are a total blast to use in Company of Heroes.

>>32420196
Question for next thread really, but why did the Germans downgrade from four to one gun when they built the Ostwind?

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Bump

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>>32421719

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>>32422098

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Turkish losses in Syria.

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>>32421426
One thirty millimeter gun has comparable firepower to four twenty millimeter guns and would be less of a tight fit in the turret.

>>32422655
Plus more accuracy for the single gun.

>>32422655
Comparable destructive force maybe, but definitely not a comparable volume of fire

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so the Turkey lost 10 Leopard 2A4 tank in al Bab hospital battle
what do you think

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>>32423461
statistic from middle east thread >>>32414509

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>>32420226
> including 30 T-72s and 30 BDRM-2s.
T-72B3 right?
because M-84 is superior to any Soviet T-72

picrelated 36th Tank Battalion of the 3rd Brigade Army Serbian troops

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/195786/69185483.af1/0_1b29c2_2f87bdf2_orig

>>32421426
I want to say better armor on American planes made the 2cm no longer as effective causing the shift to 3.7cm

>>32423509
>M-84 is superior to any Soviet T-72

Unlikely, the M-84 is based on export models.

>>32424096
The latest M-84 derivatives are clearly superior to T-72Ms and most T-72 models short of the T-72B3.

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>>32424308
This Anon gets it.
Besides, even at the beginning when Yugoslavs sent a M-84 for testing back in the USSR, the latter said that is was better in mopst regards.

Which is quite logical if you think. The USSR stamped T-72s en masse, while the M-84 was a product of careful examination of the basic T-72M by top Yugoslav military, scientific and industry officials.

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>>32424439
And the upgraded all of the shortcomings and made a far more quality product than USSR.

>>32423461
Any exact numbers on captures?

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>>32424096
M-84 got 1000 hp engine and western optic
i heard that they also use different composite armor
>>32424596
they captured two Leopard 2A4
hull number 195528 and 195532

both tank show up in this report >>32422466 english version >>32414509

how do you lose tanks to fucking ISIS or w/e

Do they have some abrams that were captcherd?

>>32424726
>Do they have some abrams that were captcherd?
Probably, although it's doubtful they're in prime fighting shape.

>>32424726
Yes, but they can't maintain them

>>32424686
1000 hp...
Did they use RENK Powerpack? Or will it have overheating/transmission problems?

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>>32424726
they destroyed all of the captured Abrams
they burn it or rigged it with explosive for propaganda film

fatnik version of the story is: IS are mostly Vatnik or Slavaboo. They have a wild knowledge of Soviet tank, but none for American tank, so they cann't maintain Abrams

kinda great pic: IS with Sposn Smersh examing an Captured Leopard 2A4, they seen to be displeased with this tank

>>32424686
any detailes about the condition of the tanks, what happended that made them captured, crew status and on?

Also, how can middle-eastern people fuck up every single piece of military equipment?

>>32424758
was it functional?

>>32424761
They were captured because the Turks jumped out and ran away, so the tanks are in good condition

>>32424758
no wonder, he tries to enter the driver position with the turret in that position. it is very tight.
Same goes with the Abrams

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>>32424761
>any detailes about the condition of the tanks
nobody know, except IS and Turk
> what happended that made them captured
is send out VBIED to counter attack Turk/FSA in al Bab hospital
> crew status and on?
IS executed two Turk soldier after that battle by burning them alive
they announced they have three more turk
we don't know if they are tank crew or not
>Also, how can middle-eastern people fuck up every single piece of military equipment?

SAA are doing just fine with Russia T-90
>>32424769
don't know yet, Turk report list them as mobility killed
though, in the video they are driving a Turk made Gavin

>>32424785
I've been in a 2a4 drivers seat and it's not "that" tight inside just the hatch is.

>>32424800
If you take a look at the picture and read what I wrote, you understood what I meant.

>>32423337
Wirbel:
1800 RPM cyclic
100g projos
180 kg/min cyclic throw weight
Ost:
250 RPM cyclic
625g projos
156.25 kg/min cyclic throw weight
Not really all that much less. When you take into accout theincreased effectiveness of a single 37mm vs its equivalent weight in 20mm (better against armor, concentrated destruction more likely to kill quickly than 1000 papercuts), and the greater engagement range permitted by the larger shell, the Ostwind win(d)s pretty easily.

>>32424756
Yugoslav made.

I have an original manual for the M-84.

>>32423873
Effective altitude is another reason.

>>32424726
They did, all were either destroyed in propaganda videos or ate bombs from American aircraft.

>>32424792
Jesus christ roaches, keep it together. Of all the useless muslim countries(ie all of them), at least you should be somewhat competent.

>>32426126
Their military just got purged after the failed coup, removing thousands of officers is not a good way to promote competency.

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>>32426743
hm.... I wonder where I heard that story before....

>>32426754
Soviet at the start of WW2 or Saddam army

>>32427454
>Saddam army
Actually the Iraqis were absolutely incompetent regardless of any purges. see their completely atrocious record in the Iran-Iraq war.

>>32427723
It's funny, because in that war Iran was the underdog, as the Iraqis had slightly better (or more numerous anyway) equipment overall. Both sides used human wave attacks anyway though.

>>32426743
>Their military just got purged after the failed coup, removing thousands of officers is not a good way to promote competency.

There was no competency to promote if a purge magically brain-erased the entire force.

Raghead militaries exist as internal police forces. They don't train for intense combat, just counterinsurgency and that's usually done by "bombard and occupy" a la Hama during Assad the Elder. Raghead culture produces people courageous enough for suicide attacks but they are primitive beasts who don't do discipline.

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

Turkey isn't rich. It has a large land army but conscription is more to bind the people to the military than to produce an effective fighting force.

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Merry Christmas to you all, by the way.

>>32428231
It should be mentioned that the most elite and disciplined units in Arab armies are almost never used as a regular force, but has household guards. See the Saudi National Guard and Saddam era Republican Guards.

>>32428275
Thanks for everything, THG. I just wish your threads didn't get shitposted off the board so fast.

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FlakPanther .

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>>32429170
Same one , different angle .

>>32423337

It's like the difference between a full-automatic handgun and a semi-automatic rifle.

Yes, you might be able to shoot more bullets with the handgun, but you can shoot farther and do more damage with the rifle.

>>32428807
People on this board don't tend to know much about tanks; in one thread, I saw some guy say that the Leopard 2 was a meme tank that would be vulnerable to WWII Germany AT weapons, which is completely hilarious.

>>32429658
>I saw 1 person say 1 thing on the internet 1 time
>therefore, everyone thinks exactly like that 1 person

>>32423461
>>32423475
>>32424596
Been away from /Thg/ and /k/ in general for a while. Are all these "lol leopard meme" threads just bait? It seems to me that the massive difference between the Turkish A4 and European A5+ and crew competency explains the losses.

In short, are Leos a solid MBT or has the performance recently proven that they are not good?

>>32430063

Any modern tank can be taken out by ATGMs for good if hit in the right parts

Giving them to turkroaches just begs for them to get outmemed by jizzhadists

>>32430063
>>32430395
I think the answer's somewhere in between: it's not quite the supertank that Bundesboos and KMW have been making it out to be (with many comparisons to its superiority over the Abrams being an example of this), and the Mideast war has probably shown a number of weaknesses in the protection of the Leo 2. However, it's still miles ahead of other Turkish tanks like the Sabra, and still a very good, technologically advanced MBT. The big problem is the shittiness of Turkroach crews and the fact that IS has ATGMs, old and new, up the wazoo.

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>>32430737

>>32430627
How much of that has to do the lack of depleted uranium?

>>32430627
>>32431007
I mean as far as comparing to the Abrams or even Russian tanks.

>>32423873
It had more to do with effective range and altitude

>>32423461
the report didn't specify if the tanks were only damaged or entirely knocked out. In one case they apparently state that only one part was damaged. Could very well be that none of the Leopards listed here were actually taken out.

>>32423461
Also pic was most likely blown up after being captured by ISIS, they film it and claim to have killed it in battle.

>>32429897
I see those 'hurr durr Leo is meme tank' a lot lately though, since ISIS claimed to have taken out a few of them

>>32431018
DU would not have helped much, most losses were either due to the crew abandoning the tank or heavy ATGM hits on the side of the vehicles. In these cases any additional protection DU would offer would not matter anyways.

The Iraqi M1A1M models without DU are taking ATGM hits to the frontal arc fairly well, a couple of tanks are driving around with patched turret fronts but the lack of DU had not significantly degraded their protection. Again it comes down to crew training and avoiding getting hit in the sides.

>>32429658
B-b-but an AP shell with 230mm penetration at 100m will surely go through 600mm of raw material thickness making up 800mm of effective armor like a hot knife through butter, right?

>>32430395
If you are talking about handheld ATGMs, that's not necessarily true anymore. They definetly stand absolutely no chance of penetrating a modern MBT anywhere on the front, they'll also most likely not go through the turret.

Vehicle based ATGMs still have a hard time with frontal armor, but should be able to reliably penetrate anywhere on the sides.

But then again, we haven't even considered the booming development of active soft- and hardkill systems, which can keep most missiles from even hitting in the first place.

>>32430063
>>32430627
The newest two versions (A6 and A7) are actually the best MBTs available, handheld ATGMs should not really pose a threat to them (depends on what level of protection the customer orders). Even the Bundeswehr doesn't really use them yet though. Of course the 40 year old A4 will have problems against modern ATGMs, especially with poorly trained crews. But thanks to the armor and active defense upgrades the A4 and the A6 / A7 are completely different tanks altogether. One A7 variant can even into urban combat without having to fear getting buttseksed by handheld anti tank weapons.

>>32430746
Leo in pic doesn't even seem damaged at all, there's apparently some field maintenance going on.

>>32431495
In my opinion it entirely comes down to shitty crews taking 40 year old A4s without any armor or active protection upgraded into heavy combat.

>>32431737
Now that we've seen the M1A2 and Leopard 2A4 in action, I want to learn if any more Leclercs have eaten ATGMs.

>>32431689
>The newest two versions (A6 and A7) are actually the best MBTs available

This is hilarious bait but I will avoid shitposting in response because this is /thg/.

>>32431737
2A7's would not have fared better in the specific incidents we know of.

You need to stop calling the A4 a 40-year old tank. It's not that old, production started in the mid 80's.

>>32429658
That post was, IIRC, referring to the thin side hull armor which could be penetrated perpendicularly at rather extreme ranges by the late war guns.

>>32432688
Production started in '79 you mong.

>>32432799

That's the Leopard 2A0, you mong.

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>>32420196
A single T-34 made into a self-propelled antiaircraft gun armed with a 2 cm Flakvierling 38 in a new armored turret with an open top. This vehicle was used by PzJagAbt 653 in July 1944.

>>32432825
My bad, I went retarded and switched A4 for leo 2 in my head, you mong.

>>32432825
>>32432910
Out of interest,
When you say mong, is it short for mongrel or mongoloid?

>>32432930

In this world, it can be anything you want. It can even be short for nigger if you so please.

>>32432221
no just the one, so far
but Houthis will certainly deliver

>>32432221
Frenchfag confirm that two Le Clercs was lost to IED, one was frontal penetrated by a ATGM, killing the driver and hackoff TC leg

>>32428231
Turks aren't Arab you stupid nigger.

>>32428807
Wait, are you telling me you DONT like 15 new treads about the F35, battleships and Trump's laters tweets each day?
You absolute madman!

>>32433270
Not "lost" per se, just mobility killed. One by an IED another by a mine.

Merry Christmas btw, /k/

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>>32433869
>Not "lost" per se

>>32433922
I tend to interpret "lost" as "catastrophic kill". Whereas as far as I know the IED/mine incidents only took out the track. There's a pic of the one who drove over the mine.

>>32433941
what about the ATGM hit?

>>32434036
The tank didn't brew up and was recovered.
So while there were crew casualties, the tank was damaged, not lost.

I wonder if the new AMAP-ADS will be in real combat field trials soon.
from what I read it met or even exceeded all regular trials currently

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>>32429170

In WW2 we would lose a hundred tanks a day in some battles but autismos on /k/ will spend 3 years carefully dissecting damage done to 1 tank.

What a sad and unfortunate world we live in.

>>32434426
When we invade NKorea or China goes nuclear things should get fun

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>>32434426
we no longer see more than 100 tank operate in one battle field
even in Ukraine, country with a massive tank fleet, a huge concentration of tank is a rare sight

and modern tank is much more sophisticated than a Sherman

>>32434918

No, lol

WW2 involved hundreds of millions of people. The bullshit in Ukraine is like 10,000 people tops. In Syria I doubt it breaks half a million.

>>32433869
What ATGM monsieur Frenchfag?
Oh and Merry Christmas to you all and your families!

>>32433869
Oh shit, welcome back.

>>32434981
Laat big tank war was like the Iran-Iraq War, or maybe the Gulf War if you count hundreds of US tanks curbstomping scattered ragheads.

>>32437381
Well, there were tank versus tank battles in Gulf War I. There were also plenty equipped with plows that buried many alive in their trenches.

The Geneva Conventions allowed us to set them on fire, and to bury them alive, but carving a cross on your bullets is right out.

>>32433270
>Le Clercs
Fu Ck Y Ou

>>32437436
>The Geneva Conventions allowed us to set them on fire, and to bury them alive, but carving a cross on your bullets is right out.
Does it say anything about the smileys i put on my 40mm grenades?

Netherlands ordered IMI Iron Fist APS for their CV90s.
Integration by BAE.

>http://www.baesystems.com/en/article/dutch-cv90s-to-become-first-nato-combat-vehicles-to-receive-active-protection

>>32437583
Why do people do this? It's a single word surname.

>>32435452

Konkurs-M or Kornet.

>>32438434
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZelPcA2Dz2c

>>32438468
How'd you tell? Flight behavior?

>>32437900
First NATO vehicles to receive APS, and it was the Dutch that did it.

>>32437900
>2018

So the Netherlands might beat the US to adopting a hard kill APS.

>>32434036
>>32434106
Yeh that's the weird thing, the tank and it systems were perfectly fine. Apart from the hole and the mix of blood and burnt deposit inside there was no damage.

>>32438468
>>32439318
AT15 was the first thing I've heard. The guy who wrote the article quoted earlier reckons it was an AT5. He had the picture of the hole itself to make his mind up. I know him pretty well, this is a man who can tell the difference between two T-72 variants in a foggy night just by looking at the bolts and nuts. I trust his judgment.

Anyone in /thg/ play any /tg/ related games like flames of war or team yankee? Really recommend it if you guys dont. Great game to play with fellow treadheads. The hype for east german armor is real.

Anyway take care everyone and merry christmas.

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>>32440016

>>32440045
Flames of War is hella good, and the models look great too.

>>32440066
What do those two stars decalled on the left mean?

>>32440016
Liking the new camo pattern though.

>>32441254
>new

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>>32441373
Well, compared to this, yeah.

>>32424761

The camp was hit with suicide trucks, with said camp in "Indian Country" with little actual forces.

The fuck up is putting themselves there.

>>32439947

AT-5 looks like it'd work on the Leclerc glacis; AT-5 still does 600mm.

I'd expect Kornet to punch into the engine compartment after going through the driver and commander's legs, potentially disabling the tank.

>>32440066
Got a source on this anon? I have a friend that should be able to decipher French.

>>32439947
Do you have the name of the expert? I'm interested in collecting sources like these.

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Object 781 (one of the early BMPT prototypes) to be restored and put in a museum

>>32442782
He's a senior NCO. Actually he was one of my instructor when I took the driver course, years ago.
Name's here : http://ultimaratio-blog.org/archives/8148
Which is pretty weird since we usually don't give our last names publicly.

>>32442681
Trucks&Tanks n56, july/august 2016.

Basically during the 90's; France, West Germany, the USA and the UK teamed up to research and develop the next gen of tank armament in order to counter the threat of the newest Soviet armor. Among the ideas were the railgun, ETC and well, the 140 mm gun. Obviously this one was much easier to work on in the short term. Eventually each of those countries had a prototype up, but they all went their separate way.
Consensus was that, because of concerns for the logistics, the 140 mm round diameter should be the same as the 120 mm one. So, the round had to be much longer, and as such, it was in two parts, one 1m long containing the arrow (yeh I'm going with the French terminology here, sounds much better than rod), and the other 50cm long with the sabot.
They concluded that because of the weight of the rounds (50kgs), automatic loading was more suited to the task.

In a pinch, that's what the picture says.

>>32422655
37mm

>>32429170
FUND IT
U
N
D

I
T

>>32443612
Do you have any pictures of the ammo/gun system?

>>32443612
wait what, the round diameter is supposed to be the same?
thats sounds horrible for the round length

>>32434400
"Men, You will be getting a new Panther to defend the pharmacy. "
"Sweet! .....ah, damn..."

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>>32433396
You forgot the: "bang, crash. whut doo?" and,
"What kind of gun is this I saw in ____game?"
Battleship threads at least have content. It's the ChiCom/pol/random 12 year old threads that really shit up the place.

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>>32444060

>>32444885
thats a big round

>>32437900
has there been any news how "big" the shockwave explosion from Iron Fist is?
I wonder how dangerous it is to allied units near the blast radius, seeing how the IDF had to readopt strategies when using Trophy

>>32441966
>AT-5 looks like it'd work on the Leclerc glacis; AT-5 still does 600mm.

The 9M113M Konkurs-M (AT-5B Spandrel B) has tandem warheads that can penetrate 800 mm of steel armor behind a layer of ERA.

>>32439947
First time I ear another source stating that it was a Konkurs.
COFRAS for a moment stated that it was a TOW.
DRM said it COULD be a Kornet.

After a glance at the photo of the impact, you can clearly discard the 9M113M and put aside the TOW 2A the charges are too close to each other.
In the end, the Kornet is more than likely the right one, consistant with the marks on the glacis.

>>32444060
Yet, it is a key in the specifications of the FTMA.
This allows to have a two-piece ammunition while retaining the alveolus system of the 120mm rounds.
The two parts ammunitions allowed the Brits to keep a human loader while the other where looking to an automated system.
The non-increase of the ammunition diameter allowed the French to make a 140 mm autoloader without redesigning everything. The CHA 140 testbed autoloader was basically an elogated CHA 120 with only few alveolus (the point was to test the feasability not to build a full blown autoloader).

>>32444932
4u

>>32444960
Inread that Iron Fist is reconfigured to be more friendly to nearby infantry, as long as you're not standing directly in front of the tubes, that is.

>>32444960
>>32446575
If it uses metallic powder instead of fragmentation it will have a small collateral damage radius.

>>32446658
>Metallic Powder
>small collateral damage

I shudder at the thought of metallic powder explosives, always reminds me of those mines with tiny razor sharp metal blades, which are literally unremoveable

>>32445559

Yeah, that's the new one.

The old AT-5 of 600mm could do it too.

It looks like warhead expended itself quite a bit going through the armor.

The upper glacis of Leclerc around the driver is ~500mm LOS or so (give or take).

>>32446709
I'm just glad I never had to be in an APC with aluminum in its body.

>>32447284
>>>>>>aluminum
This is a meme

>>32447284
And it is impossible to ever be in one.

>>32447541
You can't deny it's flammable.

>>32447667
At 1200 F.

>>32447667
If you've been hit to the extent where it's going to burn, you died in the impact or when your ammunition cooked off.

>>32444960
No more dangerous than the explosion of the warhead of ehatever you're shooting down. So it's a bit of a moot point.

>>32447284
I'd be more worried about fibreglass shards.

>>32446658
Like chaff?

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>>32448618
More like this, Panzerfaust 3 use aluminum powder as a backblast counterweight.

IIRC the German AMAP-ADS uses point blank blasts of metal powder.

>>32448753
>aluminum powder as a backblast counterweight.
The AT4-CS also use salt as a counterweight. Are there any other examples of strange counterweight systems?

>>32449769
The Armbrust used shredded plastic.

>>32443612
>Eventually each of those countries had a prototype up
Damn, I'd kill to see those prototypes.

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>>32430395
>>32430627
I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.
How do you protect MBTs from top-attack ATGM like the Javelin and the Spike? I understand the roof is protected to some degree, even some ruskie tanks have ERA in there, but mostly against HEAT bomblets, and active protection systems seems to be designed to protect against RPGs from the sides. Can any modern MBT survive a top-attack from a modern ATGM?

>>32450589
merkava is probably the most armoured against shaped charges from the top of any current MBT i've seen picture from syria of t-64/72's with home made cage armour going over the entire turret like a dome. Active protection is still probably the best bet against top attack ATGM's, remember they dont come straight down but at an angle

>>32450294

Google "[insert tank name here] 140mm"

>>32450589
>How do you protect MBTs from top-attack ATGM like the Javelin and the Spike?

Active protection and ERA.

>active protection systems seems to be designed to protect against RPGs from the sides

Nope. If you have an AP that can slap an RPG out of the air, it's trivial to design one that can do the same to an ATGM that's 1 degree higher.

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>>32450881
it adds a fair amount of complexity to track, target and intercept top attack missiles

>>32450881
>>32450825
https://youtu.be/YpmcmKwWzYo?t=1m48s
That's like 60°, I mean it should be a bigger issue.

>ERA
That's not a replacement for armor, roof armor is a lot thinner than the usual armor of a tank, some bricks aren't gonna stop proper ATGM.

So basically most modern MBTs are fucked in front of those missiles?

>>32450962
>>32450963

It's obviously not that difficult to simply build an AP system that looks for threats slightly higher up. You guys are delusional if you think nobody's building AP systems to deal with a missile that's existed since before you were born.

>>32450963
>ERA is not a replacement for armor

Lol

>>32450989
>lol
ok

>>32450991

You said some retarded shit, I laughed at you.

This can't possibly be the first time you've encountered this reaction.

>>32450989
>You guys are delusional if you think nobody's building AP systems to deal with a missile that's existed since before you were born.

That is a wonderful strawman, and few existing APS can engage steep angle top attack missiles.

>>32451009
>Maybe I can get away without expressing a valid argument.
ok.

>>32451024

Ok, so you're delusional.

Thanks for confirming it I guess?

Tip: When you're engaged in an argument, you're not supposed to immediately admit that the other person is right and that you are wrong.

>>32450989
No NATO and almost no ruskie tanks are equipped with AP system, and none exist that are designed to counter top-attack ATGMs today.
The Javelin is 10 years old now, spike about the same, yet no tank has 800 RHA equivalent on the roof.

>>32451025

Wow dude, are you seriously melting down about this?

You realize you're not supposed to reply to the same post over and over again for six hours, right?

Am I going to come back tomorrow and see 35 angry replies from you?

>>32451033
Do you not know what a strawman is?

>>32451051
>>32451041
Why did you even post in the first place? Everyone in this thread already realized you had no idea what you were taking about and are just shitposting about it.

>>32451051
>>32451058
>inventing elaborate strawmen instead of simply replying to the thing that I actually said

Have fun I guess.

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>>32451058
>>32451051
>>32451041
>This guy
It's ok.

Regardless, I'll ask again tomorrow when anons that actually know maybe around..

>>32451071
It's ok being a retard, just don't play the victim, it's sad.

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>>32451071
>INB4

>>32451125
>>32451117
>Being this butthurt.

Different anon here: ERA is not a substitute for armor, in the sense steel and composite have essentially different properties; however, ERA is a type of armor too.
There, now can both of you fags shut up and stop shitting the thread up?

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Thanks based mod.

>>32451166
Yes, right, so my point was that in this context, sticking a few era bricks on top of a thin roof aren't gonna protect you from an ATGM.

>>32451197
Adding to the discussion: Trophy's warheads technically can aim at high elevated targets (almost 90 degrees actually). Now, I don't know for sure how far up the radars scan. But I assume it's his high enough.

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>>32450963
ERA on top of the turret is there to protect from mini shape charge like Cluster munition

ERA need a high angle of attack to be most effective

and the shape of tank turret prevent that

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>>32451197
the ERA on the roof is there for cluster munition, similar to German spike armor

>>32451197
>Thanks based mod
Why am i always too late to read the since-removed retard sperg posts? Feel like i always miss them.

Anyone want to let me in on the autism?

>>32451613
use 4chanX to read removed post

>>32423461
I don't know, but seeing as I'm a fucking stupid American, it probably means that western tanks are superior while slavic tanks are shit, and that tactics have nothing to do with it whatsoever.

>>32450589
Active protection. The Russki T-14 is the only tank that can defeat top-attack ATGMs.

>>32440016
Ahhh yes bringing back the muzzle brake.

>>32443792
why? these things are completely outdated. maybe useful to shoot down helicopters, nothing more

>>32451680

Trophy is the only active system that will work against top attack

T-14 is all theory at the moment. They haven't even accepted the turret design yet.

>>32451197

Actually, it can.

ERA negates a specific amount of CE penetration based on the design

Some can completely reduce the penetration of most RPGs to zero

>>32452091
Which is not a tandem charge ATGM.

>>32452389

It actually can against "small" tandem charges like you find on RPGs and some ATGMs

Though the blocks have to be big.

>>32452430
Yes exactly
The point beinf hat such ERA will not stop a Javelon or a Spike- at best it'd deal with the precursor, but the main charge eill still penetrate.

>>32452091
Is it actually reasonable to say that an ERA brick gives X amount of millimetres RHAe vs CE? I always figured that a HEAT jet disrupted by ERA would penetrate fuckall

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>>32452091
>Some can completely reduce the penetration of most RPGs to zero

NERA and ERA only activate when the tip of the jet steam( HEAT) or penetrator( APFSDS) hit the reactive part of the armor( polymer or explosive)

they reduce the effectiveness of the round by pushing the steel plate into the path of the jet steam or penetrator

this design ensure that part of the penetrator is not effected by the reactive armor

reactive armor only reduce the penetrator to a state that it can be stop by the base armor

some design like video related can stop PG7VR, but it is light enough to be floatable, and contain enough explosive material so that it won't destroy anything near by
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9uaIlgXync

>>32452509
Isn't Nozh the exception to the rule, in that it actively shatters long rod penetrators?

>>32452509
reactive armour supposedly yaws the rod of the LRP but Its still not clear how effectively it does this.
>>32452617
Nozh diagrams seems to show it to kind of cut the rod of the LRP thereby reducing the mass behind the penetrator

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>>32452617
i don't think that Nozh can intercept the tip part of the penetrator

as seen on T-84 hull, under the ERA is a thick RHA plate

though Nozh have replaced NERA and composite arrmor in the hull of the tank

ERA is only effective at an angle. If the shaped charge is vertical and the ERA on its path is horizontal, the efficiency of the ERA brick will be close to zero.
At an angle, the projected plates give "fresh" armor to the jet which reduces its efficiency.

>>32451680
The T-14 uses soft kill for top attack.

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>>32452876
the problem is how it detect incoming top attack missile

>>32448753
seems kind of bad to have a bunch of aluminum powder blown around to inhale

>>32452906
andrey is such a faggot, he ruined such a cool image

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>>32449769
DZJ08 use shredded plastic
the launcher is thin enough it create this funny effect

The problem is the 1 side fits all approach to tank design

As long as it continues there will always be the existance of weaknesses

>>32452906
jesus fucking christ, the T-15 is enormous

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>>32449769
>>32449794

>>32453126
Fuck that shit

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>>32424686
This beast is gonna have 1500hp diesel

>>32453257
its not in scale with the others, look at the road arrows

still pretty big but

>>32453126
that does't look save

>>32453361

...with what amount of torque ?

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>swedes dropped out of AMOS and NEMO program due to budget issues
>now they pay Bofors and Hägglunds for 40 CV's with double mortars
>that are manually loaded
>and crank moved
>no direct fire
>no MRSI
>1,5million euros per vehicle

I guess they use refugees to make this lowtech waste of hardware

>>32453704
Oh and it is loaded from the muzzle like your regular mortar

>>32453782
no way???

>>32453704
>>32453782
this actually triggers me

>>32451613
Why would you want to read an internet fight?
Anyway, let me introduce you to the archives:
http://desuarchive.org/k/thread/32420196/

>>32452091
I don't know, I mean a Javelin has a stated ~800RHA penetration

>>32452906
Why is the crew of the T-15 so much farther back than the T-14? I thought they were the same hull.

>>32454883
Engine is in the front on the T-15.

>>32453126
unsafe as fuck.

If your tube is so thin that you're seeing that much light and heat, then there's a real good chance of the tube fracturing entirely and harming the operator.

>>32453704
We've had breach loaded large bore mortars for over a century, and they're paying 1.5 million Euros for a pair of medium bore, muzzle loaders.

SWEDEN YES

>>32455318
Well they called 30 million dead a great leap forward, I wonder what they'd call over 100 million killed if they got in a real war

Where can i see penetration values for the gun mounted on the type 62?
tanks

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>>32455389
I found some info but its not enough
>85mm rifled same as type63
>HEAT 495 mm of armour at 1,000 m
>APFSDF-T 360 mm of armour at 1,000 m
>APFSDF-T
>apfsDF-t
>DF
discarding fuck? what is it supposed to mean is it just a type and supposed to be DS

>>32455339
Well, they are so lowtech that they can have refugees build them for them.

Why are double-V hulls good? It seems like they would redirect some of the force into the concave section between the Vs

>>32455875
Shorter, and the biggest point of a V hull is to slow vertical acceleration to what a human body can withstand.

>>32453704
I just could not find any reason why this would be a good idea. They would have done better with some Toyota Hilux's and regular mortars attached to them.

>>32455351

A giant step for mankind?

>>32431709
Hard to see because the turret is covering it but it looks like there's scorching on the front of the tank.

>>32453422
fuckin' heaps aye

>>32454883
Its actually driving backwards the whole time.

>>32452906
The 4 AESA radar panels are angled upwards as well- actually isn't that usually the case with fixed mounting phased array radars?

>>32452617
It actually doesn't. Computer simulations show instead of penetrating the arrow it merely smears the jet along the surface, basically the same principle with ERA that kills HEAT jets dead. The pic of the APFSDS arrow that was supposedly "smashed"- fake because the damage as we see aren't consistent with a shaped charge jet interacting with a rapidly moving target.

>>32457189
>>32452688
>>32452617
>>32452690
Nozh cuts a faceplate into 'ribbons' and flings the 'ribbons' into the underside of the penetrator.

>>32452876

How does it "soft" kill the missile?

>>32457562
soft kill is normally shit like IR smoke or laser jammers

Hey guys

Can anyone give me the run down on high V low pressure guns found on AFVs?

I was reading about various light wheeled platforms and was wondering what the pros and cons are...

For example:

Rooikat uses a 76mm high-pressure

Multiple platforms use the Cockerel 90mm low-pressure

Which is better as (1) A.P and (2) Fire-support, the smaller faster projectile or the bigger slower one?

>>32452906

I'm still salty over the T-14

They should have gone with an enlarged T-90 with a bustle autoloader and a new gun

>>32457597

Yeah, and I don't see them bothering top attack missiles all that much

Smoke, even thermal masking smoke, will still leave you the one place, and the missile knows where to go through it.

>>32456324
The point of the V is to split/deflect the blast away from the vehicle so the vehicle isn't flipped/torn apart/penetrated.

But V hulls only work with monocoque hulls in any case

Fyrther, Stryker is just retarded, especially with the new flat floor tech around... There is a Patria variant with STANAG Level 4 protection on the floor

>>32457676

>Stryker retarded

The whole LAV concept is, really. The ability to drive well on roads is a peacetime wank to show off to your own citizens and it sucks in actual war

-former ASLAV (LAV-25) turret operator who would have given a nut to be in a Bradley or CV90

>>32457743
South Africans and French have had a wonderful time using LAVs fighting the type of wars that seem to be the modern norm

Stryker is just a fuck up in every conceivable sense

>>32457853

South Africa and France are fighting 3rd rate peons; if they faced actual in-depth resistance from 2nd rate savages, like the Canadians did with theirs, they'd soon realize the errors.

All LAVs suck dingo dick. By the time you armor them to be PG-7M/PG-9 proof, you lose the L part and your mobility goes to shit.

>>32458000
Well, firstly no one is arguing for a purely wheeled force composition (well, except the South Africans). Normally you would have a mix of wheeled and tracked dependant on the context of the Operation.

Further, although my knowledge of the war in Angola is not extensive, my understanding is that the south Africans using purely wheeled vehicles did encounter 2nd rate forces who were very well equipped and thrashed them mainly by using their maneuverablity.

Finally and most importantly, I think your experience with the ASLAV is also a factor. The ASLAV is a great vehicle, but it wasn't really built for the kind of role that LAVs play today. If you look at modern platforms like the Patria (Badger, Rosomak), Puma and VCBI they are pretty much everything you would want.

>>32457676
>There is a Patria variant with STANAG Level 4 protection on the floor

Now tell us what other vehicles mine protection rating is.

>>32457853
>Stryker is just a fuck up in every conceivable sense

Feel free to elaborate.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2016/12/27/Kongsberg-contracted-for-M1A2-CROWS-configuration/2031482867824/

>Kongsberg has received a $14.36 million contract from the U.S. Army for Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station configurations.

>The agreement covers Protector Low Profile variants for the branch's M1A2 tanks, which the company says provide enhanced visibility for the vehicle's operators. Company officials credit the technology to their collaboration with the Army.

>>32458547
they were fighting blacks, Soviets didn't have decent ATGM's to supply either

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>>32457614
>>32457614
>bustle autoloader
the problem is the loader can only store 22 main gun round
20 other have to go some where

in Le Clerc and Type-10, they are stored under the crew

With WW2 tech, could you make something that fulfills the IFV concept? Would it be good?

>>32460053
>that pic
they would never risk their new show pony getting disabled by a VBIED and then overrun by rebels or ISIS for jihadi propaganda vids. probably wont be for another 10 years before it sees any sort of conflict.

>>32460053
>in Le Clerc and Type-10, they are stored under the crew

They are stored next to the driver in a drum magazine.

>>32460053
>Le Clerc
*frenchfag incoherent rage*
This is too far.

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With all the Leopard 2 buzz going on, I read it has to point the turret at an angle in order to reload it's ready ammo rack.
How much of a disadvantage would that be? Is it a big deal or everyone is just overreacting at it?

>>32460053
Any idea on a name on the tart with the MG?

>>32460676

Actually, I figured it out with a bit of digging. Someone called 'Eliza Wiese' apparently.

>>32460705
Or also 'Elizabeth Wiese'.

>>32460485
If you are in a platoon, then you can pull back to replenish while buddies hold the perimeter.

When you are alone though....

>>32460744
>when you are alone though....

as a tank you should never be alone unless you somehow get yourself so fucking lost and sabotage your radio AND are borderline retarded sprouting the question of not how good the tank is but how you even managed to have someone so disabled in the first place.
That being said, a tank is only as good as its crew make it. unless it's chink crap.

>>32461249
That's the theory.

In practice ... things happen.

Like in Ukraine they really thought that it is a good idea to disperse tanks with infantry and then use them as a static defense.

>>32461266
oh yeah shit happens for sure but you'd never go hey single tank, go there and do your thing, we'll all just chill here

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>>32461266
>>32461285
furthermore. ukraine is learning a lot of things the hard way but it'll strengthen them in the end

>>32461320
A lot of people has died for this.

I guess they did so badly because you couldn't expect the barely trained conscripts to blitzkrieg'n'shit. Commanders knew this this and this is why they settled for the most basic tactics.

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>>32461320
the problem with Ukraine army is a funny one

the gorvement and the army before Maidan was pro Western

they import shit tons of tech from west and Jew

they don't really want to join NATO or Russia.
they want profit from both

at the early 2010s, they are rebuilding their miliary to western standard

then the civil war happen and now the militay look like STALKER bandit

>>32459226
Fuck yeah, buy our shit! Mad $$$$$ baby

>>32455447

Fin? Fin stab dis fin?

Sage

>>32461366
I think it would look a lot better if the US started sending armaments.

>>32461854
The US has sent a few small things, but nothing actually substantial.

>>32461907
Ukraine already have tons of relatively modern equipment.

the best thing US could sens are nigh vision, body armor, ECM/Jamming, recon and communication equipment. But I can't think anything war-winning.

>>32461918
Even this wouldn't help. The problem they have is not equipment, its complete lack of qualifications to operate it properly.

>>32461960
Over the past 30 years they forget a lot about how to do a WAR.

I don't know if they rotate experienced soldiers from the frontline to the proving grounds to train rookies, but if they don't - they really should have.

>>32461968
Its not that they forgot, its just hard having a proper military (with soldiers that actually give a fuck, and not drink 24\7), when all you're doing for 30 years is stealing.

May I remind you, Ukraine was THE best part of USSR.

>>32456525
Swedes detest anything that has finnish work in it.
They trialed for new APC and AMV won it. They did the trial three times with the same results and then decided they dont actually need one.

>>32461975
My fathers friend live in Ukraine (Sosulivka near Chortkiv) and he told me that apart from big cities people were poor as fuck.

In the late 80's Ukraine was rather comparable with Poland, now it's just sad to look it.

>>32461975
>May I remind you, Ukraine was THE best part of USSR.
Baltics and the South Caucasus (especially Georgia) were all better off, Ukraine was equal to the better parts of Russia and Kazakhstan.

>>32461992
Well, city dwellers everywhere are better educated, earn more, etc, it's normal.

But yes, in 30 years - they did nothing. They sold everything they could sell (hell, they have a war going on, and they still manage to sell weapons they desperately need themselves to Kongo), they scrapped everything they could scrap, post-russia trade ban - they effectively killed all of their remaining industry (since nobody in the west needs the production they are making, only russia does, historically) and so on. The whole country is literally a bad joke.

>>32461854
they need ship, and aircarft
not M4A1 and Abrams

>>32461998
I don't really get it how it happened. I know quite a few Ukrainians and they are all hard working and cool people to hang up with (i know, sampling bias).

I know how Poland, Czech Republic or Slovakia changed in the last 30 years, but I just don't get it why Ukraine also couldn't do it. They even had better starting position than the aforementioned countries. Corrupt government, soviet mentality and oligarchs?

>>32429340
>French 37mm mle 1925 AA gun on a US M2 half-track with geman crew and markings (in Italy?).
War is strange.
Captured french free forces vehicle or captured US vehicle refitted with old french surplus weapon?

>>32462017
Everything you mentioned, add internal division (east vs west), aggressive propaganda, little-brother butthurt complex and so on.

Basically, it's russian 90's on steroids that never ended on top of local problems.

>>32462046
Ukraine = Russia - Oil

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>>32462024
I found one caption that says Tunis 1943

>>32462006
Wtf do they need ships for? Sail in circles outside Crimea and flash ass to the russian navy?

>>32462075
They need more admirals, can't have admirals without ships. Gib ships, plox!

>>32462083
kek

>>32461918
>the best thing US could sens are nigh vision, body armor, ECM/Jamming, recon and communication equipment. But I can't think anything war-winning.

That will end up being sold on ebay.

>>32462295
wrong, the shell hit the roof.
Slav shells at this point have People magnets and will penetrate in a 85° inside the turret to bounce of the commander to explode and then set your ammunition on fire

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>>32462482
is not need to penetrate target ))))))

Hope this is the place to ask this:
If Japan had invaded Siberia c. 1942, how one-sided would the fighting between Soviet armor and glorious Japanese armor have been?

>>32463097
Both engagements between Japanese and Soviet forces in Manchuria went badly for Japanese forces.

>>32463244
Yeah, but imagine if they had Type 97s with the 47mm anti-tank guns.

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>>32420196
the whole family

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speaking of flakpanzers, this is what happens when you combine a flak 38 with a M5 stuart

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Luftvärnskanonvagn L-62 Anti II flakpanzer, used by finland and used a 40mm autocannon comparable to the ostwind.

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>>32465159
and the 40M Nimrod, based on the on L-62 flakpanzer and used by Hungary. It could be fitted with a 42M "Kerngranate" at the end of the barrel, which could then be fired at tanks as an anti-tank weapon similar to how a rifle grenade worked

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>>32465181
photo of 40M Nimrod with 42M "Kerngranate" over the barrel

>>32465204
That's awesome. Thanks for the info.

>>32463383
Frankly, Japan wpuld have been creamed even if only a few units of KV-1s and T-34s were diverted east.

>>32465034
Was this in British use?

>>32465963
Yugoslavia

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>>32465963
Yugoslavia, they also made one with a pak40 as well

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These threads are always fun, see you all next time