How smart of an idea is this? I don't know much about military

>>32408427
Not an option at this point, the F-35s are bought and paid for.

>>32408427

>I don't know much about military vehicals or equipment

Or English grammor for that matter, friendo.

It's important.

You'd understand if you knew what the f-35 "program" really is about.

at this point, modernized super hornets would be more expensive than the F-35, at a fraction of the capability.

>>32408459
What is it really about senpai?

>>32408427
Is the last week of 2016 just a marathon of off-the-wall crazy before the new year or something?

It's not smart, since there's no world where a Super Hornet is substantially useful in near-peer conflict come 2030.
Why compare it to a soon-to-be obsolete plane?

>>32408451
Where was my error?

lockheed shills btfo,

honestly the threat of actual competition is all that he really needs to get lockheed off their lazy asses

I thought you guys had the F-22

isn't that supposed to be the Deus Ex Machina of current gen air power?

this is just a reminder to lockheed that they should play ball

That can't be a real tweet

Surely a man in such a powerful position can't be so incredibly stupid

>>32408481
I think his mistake was worse.
>grammor

>>32408482
Hey, you might be onto something.
Art of the deal- light the flame under their asses.

LOCKHEED BTFO

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>>32408472

Redirecting fuckloads of taxpayer money into black projects and certain pockets

Have you ever seen this Simpsons episode?

It's the same thing by design

>>32408497
We already bought the planes!

>>32408484
We didn't build enough. Hence the F-35 is even more important.

>>32408494
>>32408497
>>32408491
>>32408482

>I'm very proud of the multi-role strike fighters. We've got the best multi-role strike fighters, but the F-35 is a disaster.
>We're going to make multi-role strike fighters great again.

LOCKHEED MARTIN ABSOLUTELY BTFO

Sunk Cost Fallacy

>>32408495

I think your mistake was worse

>Autism

>>32408484
F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It's big, expensive, and there aren't that many of them. It's just a newer F-15 in terms of role. It doesn't have nearly as much air-to-ground capability as the F-35, nearly the numbers, or the multirole abilities. Not to mention, it's already getting old. The F-22 doesn't have nearly as good computers or avionics or sensors as the F-35. I think it got a radar upgrade or something, but yeah. But essentially it's just an F-15 with stealth and unbelievable power and agility.

F-35 is a true 21st century fighter plane.

>>32408519
Isn't Trump's action here going against the sunk cost fallacy though?

>>32408484
For plane vs plane, yeah, no other country can even compete
For plane vs ground, no.

>retards actually thinking it's going to be a stock F-35

SILENT HORNET

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>>32408503
>duckduckgo

>>32408525
furthermore, you guys realize the F-35 is already just about in full production runs, and is already in service in a couple squadrons for training purposes?

>>32408535
>Using a search engine that spies on you.
I bet you even use a proprietary operating system.

>>32408427
>Boeing is ripping us off on the new air force one.
>I'm gonna have Boeing build a new more expensive version of our current military jet.

>>32408526
Yes, I should have been more clear.

But the fallacy is at play.

So much money has been spent on the F35, you can't walk away from that, whereas at the same time, you probably should since its track history shows that you're just going to lose more.

I get it is also an opportunity to test and develop new aeronautics technology and related military hardware, but that really should be done in the government sector, rather than the private, because I get that several governments are paying for the development of the F25, but who holds that patents?

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>>32408560

More growler versions are already on the navy's wishlist.

>>32408525
A jetfighter doesn't need to be "multi-role" to be useful. In fact, many people say that's the downfall of the F-35.

>Shitty, in comparison to what it's up against, at everything, but at least it can do everything!

How come contracts like these aren't capped and any overruns at the expense of the private business?

Lockheeb eternally BTFO.

>>32408569

Not him but kek

>>32408571
The range has been severely compromised due to this.

>>32408572
>why have governments and megacorps made deals that are terrible for the taxpayers
IDK

>>32408442
Refund time.

>>32408571
Who are these "people" you speak of? The F-35 is needed for the next 20-30 years out. Using dated 1970 airframes is a terrible idea.

>>32408451
>grammor
pls b bait

>>32408572
because government is the fucking WORST at negotiations.

Both sides walk awaythinking they got the other guy by the balls, but the government's going to flinch sooner, every fucking time.

>>32408572
Because the American government doesn't know how to do business, and as such get exploited by the companies that know how to do business like Lockheed and Boeing.

>>32408584
There's no refund time, the money is spent and gone. If the government tried doing refunds in contracts, no company would ever do work for the government.

Lot of Lockheeb shills on /k/ lately.

>>32408586

>pls b bait

pls not b autism

>>32408494
>not understanding how competition works
>not reading the art of the deal

You're either a lockheed shill or a butthurt lefty.

>>32408442
Pretty much this, the orders are already in.

Saying something like this would have been appropriate back in 2010 or 2011, back when the program was at its lowest point in terms of being overbudget and behind schedule, rather than 2017, when the planes have already entered limited production and are on track with the procurement schedule.

I wonder what Trump's actual endgame is here. I'm all for fucking with the unaccountable corporate welfare leech that is Lockmart, but it's not as though doing so will allow him to renegotiate the F-35 contract in favor of taxpayers (it is incredibly difficult to make changes to any kind of government contract apart from canceling them outright). On the other hand, he could just be misinformed about how far things have come since its darkest days. Who knows.

>>32408603
>I was only pretending to be retarded
kek

>>32408599
Calling people shills doesn't change the fact that the f18 is actually a fine aircraft.

Yes the f35 is the future, but they never should have forced it on all the service branches.

That's pretty great, people have been saying get more F-18's instead of F-35's for a while now

But the better move would be why the fuck do we need to spend anymore on defence, Russia isn't gonna fucking invade us, fucking fear mongering neo cons & liberals

>>32408569
Brah, you're letting the globalists win.

>>32408566
>since its track history shows that you're just going to lose more.

You haven't been paying attention the last few years.

>>32408622

>I have autism and cant detect a subtle joke disguised as a serious reply due to the way it was written

kek squared

>>32408619
Setting the standard early for companies to strap up and face competition

>>32408624
It wasn't forced, they all asked for it. That's why each branch asked for modifications on it.

The main reasons for a new aircraft is parts and future proofing. Every time something breaks on a plane that isn't a F-16, F-22 or F-35, they have to either go to a scrapyard and find the part or contract it out and pay a shit ton of money plus a long wait time.

>>32408635
I sure haven't.

Are you saying that the development cost of the F25 hasn't ballooned?

>making companies compete for government contracts and not the other way around

madman

>>32408619
Promoting competition + putting pressure in Lockheed

Nothing bad can come out of this tweet, prove me wrong

Another 4D chess move

>>32408642
LH already faced competition and Boeing fucked up.

>>32408642
But the time of competition is over, Boeing got BTFO with this thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

>>32408624
>the f18 is actually a fine aircraft.

If all you are doing is bombing third world countries with no proxy backer.

>>32408653
Competition was over with back in 2000, they pushed out this thing and lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

>>32408626
#Breaktheconditioning

>>32408651
You mean something that already happened?

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Someone stop him! The F-F-35 is the best!

>>32408584
The period for which the program could be canceled and some of the funds recovered ended years ago. Aircraft are in production and are being distributed to our armed forces and the countries who have placed orders.

>>32408649
In the last few years? The total cost has gone down.

>putting the squeeze on boeing for AF1
>putting the squeeze on lockhee dmartin for f-35
can't wait for the next round of military contracts to be under budget and ahead of schedule

>>32408651
You mean what happened when Boeing got BTFO?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

WTF, I love Hillary now.

>>32408673
Not a bad idea to bring it back.

The F35 program is too costly, that's a fact.

Trump wants to bring costs down, so he promotes competition.

Even if it doesn't work in the end, he at least doesn't let Lockheed get away with murder.

>>32408653
Nigga what the fuck is fourth dimensional chess?

>>32408685
>>32408714
there will never be future competition

>>32408619
It's either a shakeup designed to scare the pants off of Lockheeb or he's in dire need of up to date briefings from the Pentagon.

>>32408727
>Too costly

I don't think you understand the issues with older planes still being in service. The biggest issue is that every time a piece breaks, you either contract out the part or luckily recover the part from the scrapyard. If Trump really wanted to drive down the cost, he would be in full support of the F-35 going in full production and being distributed to the bidding companies like it is already planned.

This is just simple pandering to conservatives who see big numbers and freak out without investigating.

>>32408750
I have a feeling this is the one.

>>32408737
a meme

>>32408737
I don't know, but apparently we are all playing it and Trump is winning.

>>32408750
Well judging by the fact that just yesterday he met with generals and admirals to decide on how to cut down military (and F-35) costs, I don't think Trump just woke up this morning and decided to shill for Boeing.

>>32408585
>We need a slow jet that can't dogfight for the next 20-30 years
ok. retard.

>>32408764
In that case I'm 100% convinced it's a bluff, but because the media and the stock markets still don't understand how Trump operates he's still going to shave a few hundred million off of Lockheed's market cap from panic selling.

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>>32408782

>>32408773
>Slow
>Dogfight

Damn, it sure is winter break isn't it?

>>32408782
Isn't this the purpose ?

>>32408642
>>32408653
Manufacturing high tech weapons and defense systems is on a completely different level than just normal commercial or consumer goods though. It has extremely high barriers to entry, in that it requires both oceans of money and the best human capital possible in order to get acceptable results. In real terms, this means that competition will not appreciably lower the cost of a major defense program like it would in most other industries.

I'm all for holding Lockheed accountable for their perpetual cost overruns due to intentional underbidding and occasional failures to deliver a decent product in the end, because they are the absolute worst company in America in this respect, but I'm not convinced that saying "We will just go to Boeing/Northrop/Raytheon instead!" will actually be cheaper for the taxpayers in the end. Especially when it comes to making a superlative 5th generation fighter that will be serving for decades to come, seeing as how none of those companies except maybe Northrop have the necessary experience and personnel to do a good job.

>>32408795
>>32408799
Yep. This is Trump being Trump.

>>32408639
>I made an honest mistake but am trying to play it off as a joke because I'm buttblasted
kekus maximus

>>32408572
>>32408572
because since the destruction of the Gold Standard our government has operated on an unlimited supply of money

>>32408764
He was talking about increasing US nuclear capabilities, which is about the most expensive thing you can do when it comes to contracting. I can't even think of who he's bluffing anymore, I think he's just stiring shit up for fun at this point.

>>32408835
Yup, hes a troll

>>32408830
>muh Gold Standard™

Oh god I hope you aren't dumb enough to invest in gold.

Hilarious. Trump is doing the same thing as McNamara did in the 60s, except the people actually love him for it.

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>>32408845
We've elected a tripfag as president.

>>32408484
The F-22 is a excellent plane but it was designed a bit before all the fancy avionics really started becoming standard and it shows. It's also harder to upgrade as a result.

Is this the same Boeing that Trump shit on already about AF1?

our president is a retart

>>32408865
He just had a meeting with them where they supposedly agreed to bring down the costs on that.

>>32408795
Truly, the tweet is mightier than the sword.

>>32408477
Nah, that's authentic Donald - expect to see more of this in 2017.

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>>32408835
>I think he's just stiring shit up for fun at this point

If people don't get that he is doing this then they really need to consider the fact that they have terminal autism.

He tweets about Air Force one and Boeing is currently making all these statements about how they wont spend any more money than they need to ect. ect.

Trump is taking on the real american welfare state from his phone keyboard and seeing the MSM defend the Military Industrial complex has been one of the heartiest laughs I have had in years

>>32408582
Except the F-35 has very long legs for a fighter of its size.

>>32408890
PokemonGO jumped Nintendo's stock even though Nintendo made $0 from it. Stock brokers are human and fall prey to fear just like everyone else.

He's establishing a bargaining position. Nothing more....

...I think.

>>32408904
Yes but that doesn't address the contradiction. In one tweet says he wants to spend a fuck ton of money on something we don't actually need, while in the next tweet he is complaining about how a vital program is too expensive. I get it if he wants to bring down the cost, but to what end if he is merely going to waste any potential savings on unnecessary nukes?

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>>32408795

Didn't Trudeau try to pull this exact same shit?

>>32408800
Yeah, but in this case it would be more about dealing a massive blow to Lockheed for being DICKS about everything than about "winning for the taxpayer" - a Pyrrhic victory IS a victory, and god knows companies that do business with the Gov. would tighten up, for fear of being made an example of.

Chinese proverb - Sha Ya Jing Bai. Roughly Translated, execute one enemy to strike fear into a hundred.

The other thing is, how necessary is a 5th generation fighter when 99% of our needs are for more drones and CAS against mudslimes in the sandbox? I'm all for keeping up with other countries in the arms race, but if we've got the blueprints and the problems have all been worked out (HAH!) we can always order more at a future date.

>>32408961
'If a company makes you pay more, you save money'

>>32408593
Nonsense, they know exactly what they are doing. Every billion sunk into a military program means donations into the pocket of the ordering party.

>>32408845
Not a troll, an idiot. Trump literally has the attention span of a goldfish.

>>32408962
>how necessary is a 5th generation fighter when 99% of our needs are for more drones and CAS against mudslimes in the sandbox?

You need to plan for the future and things that cannot be foreseen as of now.

>>32408962
Very, because we may have fighting that isn't in the sandbox with monkeys that will need really good fighters to pull a easy victory. Loses from losing to enemies becomes much more costly than just upgrading and beating the other in the arms race.

Planes also have a pretty good time out before they are ready and capable to fuck shit up in massive numbers. Tooling, personal, materials, software, etc. need to be drawn up a long time before we do something big.

>>32408887
just like he had a meeting with Carrier where he saved all those jobs that never planned on leaving by giving more tax breaks to billionaires?

this guy does not know anything about governing let alone business.

>>32408951
He brags about being unpredictable. Art of the Deal etc.

>>32408992
>he saved all those jobs

He saved less than half (~800) and gave carrier a $ 7 million tax break.

>>32409013
And how much tax revenue would zero jobs create?

>>32408982
this guy is right, just in case mudslimes get alien technology we need the best aircraft to shoot their shit down

>>32409024
800 dudes is pretty small. Nothing worthy happened there other than then the president bowing to a company and getting a shit deal for those men.

>>32408979
Even though he was saying the same shit in the 80's?

>>32409024
Not much considering they'd have to clear the $7 million.

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>>32408937
Without getting too much into it the current US and Russian nuclear stocks are aging and are last generation missile technology. There was also allegedly about a trillion dollars allocated over 10 years to upgrade the arsenal anyway.

Meanwhile while I think the F35 is a decent plane the era of blank checks to Lockheed Martin needs to stop.

Basically the money we don't waste money on inefficient contractors can be used for critical or soon to be critical needs like an upgraded nuclear arsenal

>>32408962
>we can always order more at a future date.

So let me get this straight: You actually believe that we can order only a handful of planes (or none at all) and then, after the line has been shut down for lack of orders, the factory closed, and all of the workers have moved on to other jobs, we can, as soon as they are required, suddenly build as many jets as we need?

>>32409049
800 hundred dudes who will live and shop in the community. That factory provides tertiary economic activity too.

>>32408992
>>32409013
>>32409049
The jobs were confirmed leaving, what you are parroting is lies from the Liberal Media upset that he is actually making on his promises

>>32408962
>The other thing is, how necessary is a 5th generation fighter when 99% of our needs are for more drones and CAS against mudslimes in the sandbox?

Our current fighters all have airframes that are 30+ years old, and some of them are literally falling apart mid-flight. Furthermore, the necessary processes for adopting a new fighter--R&D, procurement, training/retraining pilots and mechanics, etc--none of these are things that can be done quickly (ie 3 years or less). Putting the introduction of a 5th generation fighter till war is on the horizon is EU-tier stupidity.

>>32409056
I don't like the blank checks but that is literally the name of the game for the entire industry that deals with the government. Trump is not fixing that, especially how he did not drain the swamp and has conceded on many of his campaign promises.

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>>32409098
>t. CTR
Fuck off already. You have no power here.

>>32409075
Until those guys get laid off in a year or so when Trump does nothing to support these guys and the company is not in public spotlight anymore. 800 dudes in a country with ~350 million people and ~124 million working, tax paying people is absolutely nothing.

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>>32409129
>$50B direct investment and 50k jobs from Softbank
>10k re-hires from US Steel
>25k new jobs from IBM
Carrier was the first, but it's not the last.

>>32408961
Trudeau made a campaign promise to not buy the F-35, and is now trying to delay procurement of the CF-18 replacement intil the next administration.

>>32409098
He's not. The fucking. President. Yet. Faggot.

>>32409082
"confirmed leaving", jobs leave the country all the time Trump didn't do anything except sellout the taxpayers.

and knock off the liberal media bullshit, I saw it on NBC nightly news

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>>32409171
Stop replying to shills, trapfag.

>>32409056
The US nuclear triad is in very good shape right now and our detection system is the best in the world. Russia doesn't even have a fully operational orbital detection system. Our replacement programs are also proceeding well. There isn't any reason we need to spend more on nukes, we have the best detection and most accurate delivery systems in the world.

14 Ohio class SSBN (24 Trident II per vessel)
~450 Minuteman ICBM

That era ended (bullshit price of ~$133 million per aircraft), F-35A price per unit dropped to $85 million. Specialized models are more expensive ~$100 million. The prices are high but far from unacceptable and have the potential to drop further.

>>32409179
>>32409124
Man, who would've thought having different opinions would make me a shill. CTR sure must be going strong AFTER the election.

>>32409129
Gosh, quit being such a Negative Nancy!

>>32409172
>NBC
>not liberal media
wut

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>>32409171
you seem upset.

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>>32409203
They got a fresh round of funding from Soros. The globalists are still shitter shattered and desperate to stop Trump from being inaugurated and carrying out his campaign promises, because they know if he does they'll never win another election in the US.

>>32409024
I suppose that's a point.

>>32409049
It's not just the taxes paid by the factory, Carrier wills till be paying some (Tiny) taxes to Indiana. Though I'd have favored a more coercive move to punish their outsourcing that's not an option before he goes into office.

>>32409082
~2200 jobs were leaving and ~800 ended up staying after a $7 million tax break, Carrier said as much.

>>32409171
It's over my friend, he won the electoral college vote. Unless he dies between now and January, he is president.

>>32409196
>we have the best
This sort of thinking is how you lose.
There is always a better way, faster response times or better detection or more cost efficiency. Never get complacent.

>>32408835
Perhaps; or he'll see about reusing 1990s technology with modern upgrades and get something better (than we currently have) for less (than a whole new project taking 8+ years and 4x the cost overruns).

Essentially, shift the R&D costs from the US Government to companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, and Orbital ATK. Make the manufacturers develop the programs with commercial success in mind--that the USA signs on for buying the design and awards a contract to a manufacturer (not necessarily the designer) to actually make the hundreds or thousands of units purchased.

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>>32408427

OMG I've never loved trump as much as now!

>>32409224
Wow, I knew 4chan had some autists but goddamn. This is fucking stupid.

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>>32409098
>I don't like the blank checks but that is literally the name of the game for the entire industry that deals with the government.

Trumps literally changing that game right now. It doesn't need to be that way

>especially how he did not drain the swamp and has conceded on many of his campaign promises.

Mate how can he do that if hes not even president yet

The only talking point the media has right now is that he wont "drain the swamp"

He has done more to "drain the swamp" by ending two political dynasty's than anyone else has bothered to do in the last 90 years.

We might Have to just agree to disagree though because i don't think we are going to get anywhere productive

>>32408933
By making himself look retarded?

It's like asking for new bids on the 688 replacement because the Seawolf was too expensive.

>>32409238
>>32409219
Not to defend Phil but I think his point was more 'you can't accuse of him of not living up to his campaign promises if he isn't even in office yet'.

>>32409129
Gotta start somewhere. Trump doesn't have to negotiate all of these deals himself--get some big names and clout about his plans and others will fall in line. I think that, in 4 years, he'll be knee-deep in encouraging domestic expansions instead of saving existing jobs.

>>32409239
We have the best currently and will have the best for the foreseeable future. Our equipment really is first rate and our replacement schedule is on track, and its not good to rush it as these are the most expensive systems that the US armed forces maintain and you really do want to get your money's worth. Minuteman gets replaced 2040, Ohio gets replaced ~2029.

>>32408427
Fun fact: when Donny sent his initial tweet about the F-35 last week, the first 3 of 50 F-35s were touching down in Isreal.

If the US doesn't want them, other countries will.

Source: me, a guy who works in the aerospace industry.

>>32409278
>Trump doesn't have to negotiate all of these deals himself
Isn't half his cabinet big business CEOs and such, instead of established politicians?

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How does crashing Lockmart with no survivors help make America great again?

>>32409300
The Brits literally need them. They cant have a carrier with no planes.

>>32409318
>a single man has the power to do that with a 140 character statement
Every day Trump becomes more god than man.

>>32409339
Its called being president-elect, of course what he says carries weight.

>>32408572
This is already happening to an extent. LM has to pay for any overruns for the next LRIP batch of aircraft I believe.

>>32409242
>Essentially, shift the R&D costs from the US Government to companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, and Orbital ATK.

If the government ever tries to actually do this, it will be a disaster for national defense. The Chinese will give them a better deal along the lines of "spend as much money as you want as long as you produce something better than what the United States has," and all of those companies will simply pack up their important operations and leave the United States. Now if the Chinese are out of the picture? Then what you're saying might work, as no one else has enough money to produce such an outcome.

>>32409355
at a rate of 8.6 million (8,600,000) dollars per letter

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>>32409290
Im the guy that you originally replied to

I do agree with you about how good they are now and I might been a little off in my "last gen" assessment.

I don't like being on trump defense 24/7 desu so honestly he might of picked up the semi-false meme that all of our missile capability is degrading and rotting away and saying hes gonna fix that picked up easy political points with his more conservative supporters.

We are just gonna have to see what is talk and what is action.

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>>32408795

>>32408852
>Oh god I hope you aren't dumb enough to invest in gold.

whatever you say schlomo

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>>32409355
Trump's twitter has always been extremely powerful.

>>32409368
The idea that our nuclear capability is old and crappy has been used in politics many times, and it works every time. Saying nuke/bomber/missile gap works so well its almost disturbing that people haven't caught on yet.

Held truth only about one during the 80's when Soviet warhead production skyrocketed, but even then we were still more capable when it came to nukes as are and always have been the ones with the most accurate missiles.

>>32408727
>not a bad idea to bring back the X-32
>in order to save money
Everyone look at this man and laugh.

>>32409396
>that image
kek

>>32408795
maybe this will light a fire under their money sink fat-cat asses

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>>32408962
>5th generation fighter

falling for the 5th gen meme...

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>>32409396
kek

>>32408795
>one tweet can get $1.2B moving
>he's not even president yet
kek

>>32409364
A wall operates in both directions. What we use to keep South Americans and Middle Easterners out can be used to keep Americans in. If China made the offer and the contractors made to leave, then you can sure as hell bet that there will be thousands of trials for treason and espionage.

The Chinese are currently quite content to let the US Government pay for R&D and then to steal the technology (or get substantial cues) for their own project 5 years later--delivered for far less than what we'd pay and with the might of Chinese manufacturing.

How many years behind schedule is the F-35?
How many dollars over budget is the F-35?

Trump has made a name for himself by routinely failing to pay contractors that fail to perform. Why should LMT get any different treatment?

>>32409049
$7m is small even for only 800 workers who make $30/hour

>>32409497
That's 800 more people spending their money in the community. That's 800 less people on welfare. There's a knock on effect when you look at the big picture.

>>32409404

fuck you lockmart shill.

everybody knows that the only thing the F-35 is good at is what it was designed for - making monies for lockmart

>>32409526
I know m8, I'm saying the tax break is worth it, not much compared to what's gained/conserved

>>32409530

>t. Someone who knows nothing about the F35

>>32409488
What you are describing is a bill of attainder, which is illegal according to the Constitution of the United States.

You could only convict a defense contractor that wished to leave the United States with treason or espionage if they were actually guilty of something more serious than relocating to another country without taking or divulging classified information.

>>32409492
The F-35 has actually been on time and within costs for the past few years now.

>>32409526
It's crony capitalism and making special deals for random companies, it isnt sustainable.

>>32409580
>The F-35 has actually been on time and within costs for the past few years now
after it's already been pretty well developed, If Lockmart had to answer to taxpayers like they did to investors there never would have been an issue with scheduling or budget in the first place

>>32408427
Well, Trump seems to want to run the government like a business for better or worse. The F-35 of course will still be bought, but going forward Defense companies (especially fucking Lockshill) might need to rethink the unlimited budget price overrun contract business model.

>>32408494
For all the talk of "End the Fed", they're the reason that the government doesn't have an unlimited supply of money. Because they're independent the government can't just decide to make more to pay people. It's why the government has to borrow so much money. It doesn't have enough to pay its bills and it can't just conjure up more out of thin air.

>>32409581
Are you sure?
Assuming these guys are working for $30 an hour, 8 hours a day, which is about $60k a year.
With Trump's tax plan they would be paying about $7,200 a year in tax.
This leaves them with $52,800 spending money.
Assuming they are spending about $32,000 a year on cost of living, plus luxuries. Indiana's sales tax is 7% so of that $2,240 is in tax.

That alone is $9,440 per person in tax. Times 800 people and you are already making back $7,552,000 in tax from that alone.
This is before factoring the tax that the local businesses will pay from the 800 extra shoppers, possibly even being able to expand their own business and hire more people creating more tax.

>>32409581
>making random deals for random companies
All companies will be getting tax breaks, this is part of Trump's platform (reduce business tax to 15% and cut regulations).

This won't happen. But it's actually a pretty good step in the right direction. R&D sucks up tons of money every year to provide lackluster, overpriced crap, and the gov't buys it because they have the money to burn. Taking the shears to this kind of shit and saving some money sounds good in my book.

>>32408427
To be frank I want to know if he wants to make plans about overturning the Assault Weapons Ban, Bill Clinton put in place more than his policy on military aircraft.

>>32408503
Kill yourself, Winslow

>>32408653
There was a competition, Boeing produced a lazy, POS plane, and rightfully lost

>>32408962

the goal of the USA army is to maintain our ability to simultaneously defeat china and russia basically, while defending on several smaller fronts, all at the same time.

basically, the US army is designed to fight the entire planet and win. that is what we need to maintain.

>>32408649

not only what >>32408712 pointed out, but the sunk cost fallacy assumes that what you're getting is incompetent and a replacement takes a trivial amount of time. our fighters are literally falling out of the sky. we need a new fighter, and the F-35 is poised to be a great one. to cancel it now based on memes and a poor understanding of aerial warfare is so incredibly short-sighted that it beggars belief. at the same time, "so incredibly short-sighted that it beggars belief" describes trump to a T.

my prediction is that a comparable F/A-18 would be impossible or cost 2-3x a F-35.

>>32409713
>Assuming these guys are working for $30 an hour
>possibly even being able to expand their own business and hire more people creating more tax.

They're rust belt factory workers, you are way too optimistic. The jobs were being moved to Mexico because they only require unskilled labor.

>>32409778
Have you been in a coma the last 12 years?

>>32408979
that's why he's a billionaire and the next US president while you're shitposting and wearing cum stained underwear?

>>32408484

F22:

> raping anything in the air

F35

> raping everything else

>>32409013
He saved some jobs, which is more than Obama did.

The specifics don't matter to the working class people that voted for Trump. It's a good act of persuasion.

>>32409861
There is no "comparable" F/A-18. Hell the comparable F-15 (F-15SE) was projected to cost ~$100 million per aircraft.

We've reached the limit with what we can do to improve these old aircraft without the cost being totally unacceptable.

>>32409396
This can't be real.

>>32409883
>He saved some jobs, which is more than Obama did.

You know that Obama prevented GM from going under despite the Republicans being united against him in favor of letting it fail, right?

>>32409911

yeah, that's my point. there is no comparable F/A-18. or if you managed to kludge together a stealthy one with all the sensor fusion, it would cost you many times the F-35's price.

>>32409914
Oh but it is. Trump has been doing this same rope a dope cycle with the media since years before they ever announced and they STILL don't get it.

>>32409713
this

>>32409581


it was BRILLIANT.

>>32409922
You mean letting it fail and allowing the systems/programs we have in place such as bankruptcy run their course and ensure we have an end result of a stronger and better system overall? Yeah that was totally a "good" thing. Same with the rest of the big banks and their bailouts. Yes we would've still had a crash and it would've been a couple years of bad economy (which we had anyways) but we would've had a much stronger system overall.

Then lets also look at how the Obama administration has lead to a drastic cutting in full time jobs and instead massive hiring of part timers (who don't get benefits) to inflate job numbers while the percentage of working age adults who arn't actively working or seeking a job is massively down.

>>32409914
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/668520614697820160
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/22/politics/donald-trump-black-crime-police-retweet/
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/258584864163500033
>doubting the power of the God-Emperor

MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX ABSOLUTELY BTFO!!

>>32409645

and you need to understand that you can't magically predict how much a jet costs. unknown unknowns and all that.

>>32409983
Boeing is also part of the MIC you big dummy.

>>32408962
>but if we've got the blueprints and the problems have all been worked out (HAH!) we can always order more at a future date.
No, that's not how this works at all. Wars are fought with what you have, and not having the F-35 in service means that if China decides to start shit in the SCS/Norks gonna Nork/Russia annexes the Baltic we won't be able to use the F-35 until too late.

Like, this is basic military theory that's been around since the 1800s.

>>32409972
If General Motors had been allowed to go bankrupt, it would have immediately resulted in the loss of tens of thousands of working-class American jobs as the company's creditors (Cerberus, the same corporate raiders who've been running American gun companies into the ground) enforced a restructuring plan that entailed the removal of all non-executive payroll positions to overseas. This is the same outcome that Trump stopped with the Carrier plan.

It would have also created a vulnerability in our national defense, as General Motors has always played a critical role in the nationalization of American industry to achieve the needs of wartime production.

>>32408427
YAY 10 more years of Memeplane building !!!

>>32409488
The Chinese already hacked us & are making F-35 clones & of course the Obama admin did nothing

One thing i agreed with Hillary on is we need to see hacking as an act of war, but she probably wouldn't have followed through

>>32409580
Yet CA & NY gun control laws use essentially the same to deny property rights to the legal heirs of gun owners. It's yet to be declared unconstitutional (which hopefully should occur soon).

And I'm quite aware of the legal status of such an attempt. I'm saying that it's a worst-case scenario and would require a fascist Donald Trump. That said, the sale of secrets (like a Chinese deal) would be punishable as it's been punishable for the past hundred years. It happens occasionally and usually some disgruntled individual was slighted and makes the attempt.

>>32410139
IT security is far from my profession. I'd assume that the hacks were because of gullible people making mistakes.

File: kiddo.png (501KB, 693x505px)

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>>32408962
>5th generation fighter
>F-35
wew lad!

>>32410295
Yes.

File: podestas mccann.jpg (229KB, 720x970px)

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>>32410264
>IT security is far from my profession. I'd assume that the hacks were because of gullible people making mistakes.
Most "hacks" are. John Podesta got pwned because his IT typed "legitimate" instead of "illegitimate" when describing a phishing email.

>>32409645
And paying the difference whenever they don't deliver on time isn't answering to the taxpayers.

Fuck off back to /pol/

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>>32410264
>I'd assume that the hacks were because of gullible people making mistakes.
There's a Podesta email where he announces that he's changing his password from "p@ssw0rd" to "p@@ssw0rd".

>>32408427
It's just a negotiating tactic. Lockheed stock is falling faster than a gay man off a mosque in Syria. Lockheed will renegotiate quickly to make sure their stock stops tanking. Both sides know the government isn't going to stop buying F-35s. The general public is stupid though and takes his threat at face value.

>>32410767

it's already cheaper than most 4.5th gens...

The f-35 engine has the best thrust-to-weight ratio of any fighter jet ever made, and the radar is fantastic. Its the first carrier capable jet built with stealth in mind.

Killing it right before production is ramped up is insanely retarded.

>>32410767
I'm pretty sure it went back to normal once people quickly realized that Trump was retarded.

>>32411058

it's down 5% of its value still.

for somebody who promised to make america great again (when did we stop being great?), he's potentially costing a lot of defense sector jobs.

>>32411094
>when did we stop being great?),
1965, with the passage of the Hart-Celler Immigration Act.

>>32411128
This.

If things were normal, that act probably wouldn't have changed things too significantly.

But Latin America is a dump, and removing barriers for entry and providing family reunification made Hispanic immigration (legal and illegal) spiral out of control.

That such a significant act was passed without asking the citizens is pretty mind-boggling.

>>32410058
Cerberus owned Chrysler, not GM. GM's creditors were mostly internal, GMAC, the pension fund, etc.

>>32410442
Also his password was literally Passw@rd

>>32410058
>This is the same outcome that Trump stopped with the Carrier plan.
He gave a company millions of dollars in tax handouts, and they're still moving most of the jobs they originally planned to to Mexico.

And they're investing the handouts into automation.

>>32409972
>would've been a couple years of bad economy (which we had anyways) but we would've had a much stronger system overall.
Letting the entire global financial system collapse is a little worse than "A couple of years of bad economy"

>>32410442
I dont understand the thought process behind this picture. Podesta is a key elite figure in a global shadow cabal rape conspiracy but he has to grab his own victims instead of having goons that do it for him?

>>32411094
>when did we stop being great?

1909, after that we were pretty good.

Seriously though its just a slogan, its been left intentionally vague so that one can claim that America is now great again or America still isn't great at any time. Its just politics.

>>32411819
The global financial system needs to die.

>>32408737
>what
Don't you mean, "when?"

>>32411345
Arguably the 19th Amendment made legislation like Hart-Celler possible.

>>32411802
>700k tax relief per year in exchange for 800+ jobs(tens of millions in salaries) is bad
>saving jobs for minimal costs is bad
This is why you lost

>>32409401
What did China mean by this?

http://gizmodo.com/chinas-new-hypersonic-missile-can-scream-past-us-air-d-1501458331

>>32408773
Dogfights are still a thing? I tought that today detection is the most important factor and shots are taken beyond the visual range.

>>32408571
irrelevant statement. Sure, of course a fighter doesn't NEEEEED to be 'multi-role' to be useful. But the US already has the F-22 to fill the pure air superiority role of the F-15. The F-35 is intended to replace the F-16 and F/A-18 primarily, both fully multi-role fighters.
>>32408583
the F-35 has a combat radius of 625 nmi on internal fuel only.
the F-16 has a combat radius of around 300 nmi.
the F/A-18 has a combat radius of around 400 nmi

So tell me more about how the F-35's range was compromised due to being a multirole plane when it can carry the same loadout as an F-16 (say, 4 a2a missiles and 2 large bombs) and have much more range. The F-16 needs to add external fuel tanks to that loadout just to come close to the same range, and those tanks cripple its aerodynamic performance.

>>32408612
>implying art of the deal wasn't ghost-written
>implying the Orange God-King didn't inherit hundreds of millions of dollars and his current worth is not much better than if the money had just sat in the S&P500.
>implying that just maintaining your wealth is some masterful business feat

>>32408624
of course the F18 is a "fine aircraft". It's also getting old, and has significantly less capability compared to an F-35.

What makes you think they "forced" it on all service branches? What other better plane would the navy go with? What better plane would the marines go with? what better plane would the airforce go with? Not to mention that having it used by so many branches and militaries in the world not only lowers costs, but also makes maintenance and logistics easier.

>>32408653
Trump doesn't play 4D chess. He probably can't play regular chess. This isn't promoting competition. Using twitter to try and "pressure" L-M is retarded. L-M beat the competition already. Boeing tried, their prototype was a turd.

>>32409360
>lockheed might have to pay a couple billion out of the trillion they made from cost overruns on just the f-35

We sure got them! Good old US government negotiating savvy.

>>32408603
>>32408520
damage control

>>32408773
>slow
>can't dogfight
lol. Sprey Sprey go away, come again another day

>>32408890
it's disgusting economic tyranny for the POTUS to think it's his job to hack at the knees of companies and try to shave billions off their stock.

>>32408992
>tfw those jobs and more get lost anyways when Carrier has to raise prices and gets less customers and therefore needs less employees and cuts jobs

>>32409072
most people have ZERO understanding of how mass production works.

>>32409431
explain how it's a meme.

>>32409526
>less people on welfare
>government bribes company to give them job
>implying there's a difference

>>32409866
exactly. this isn't skilled tradesmen and craftsmen. It's guys screwing together panels or drilling holes.

>>32409883
>implying it's the job of the POTUS to "save" people's jobs for them.
also, how is this different from Obama's massive stimulus packages and bailouts to the auto industry? Do you support those? I mean, they saved jobs too right?

>>32410044

There is always a prelude to war. Heightened tensions. Economic stress. Anyone with half a brain can see it coming - it's NEVER a surprise.

Regardless; We've already shown the world we're cucked to hell and don't have the spine to stand up to anyone, and frankly unless it's an invasion of the US I don't give a shit or think we have any business fighting.

As to your comment about wars being fought with what you have.. you should read up on the history of the B17. The B17 development program took place throughout the great depression. No, we didn't field the B17 immediately, and we didn't have a huge fleet of them - but we had proof of concept planes and then we ramped up production. Check the "Production numbers" chart on this wikipedia page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress#Design_and_variants

liek, this is actual history that's been around since the 1940s.

Additionally.. am I the only one who genuinely does not give a shit about europoors? Why the fuck is defending them from Russia an obligation? What do they contribute or give us that we need? Seems like a pretty onesided friendship, imo.

That said I admit I do have a soft spot for Switzerland, Poland and the Czech Republic. I'd be fine with handing them nukes and telling Russia "Do what you will with the rest of Europe."
>>32408991
>>32409072
See my comment regarding the B17. Well. Any combat aircraft of WW2 really. It requires putting the country on a war footing, but it's definitely possible.

>>32408982
F22 Raptor; JSF is jack of all trades master of none. I'd rather have an actual fleet of F22's and establish unquestioned air superiority and let other craft handle CAS than a bunch of JSF's.

>>32409095
Sticking with a program that has produced a lackluster plane and has massively overrun budget at every turn is sunk cost fallacy at it's finest. I'm fine with new planes.I'm not fine with the shitshow the JSF development has been, or the product they're delivering.

>>32418448
>the us is spineless for not being at war and also war is none of our business

Cognitive dissonance at work.

>trump starts fucking with lockmart
>shills lose their shit
based

>>32411837
The whole "pizzagate" thing is overflowing with illogical ridiculousness like that.

That picture is particularly nonsensical because it's been proven that both sketches were based on descriptions of the same suspect.

Oh shit, captcha was pizza.

>>32418448
whole fleet of F-22's? The US already has around 280 of them. That's pretty typical for a USAF air superiority fighter, and is similar to the numbers of F-15C's they have. That's already plenty to establish total ais superiority over everyone else in the world. Not to mention, you think the F-35 is expensive? The F-22 is more expensive. It's a larger fighter with two engines, just that massively increases costs

what specifically are your problems with the F-35? Be specific. Don't give this crap like "it's lackluster" or "sub par".

>>32418448
>JSF is jack of all trades master of none.

The air force actually wants the jacks though, there is a reason that they wanted ground attack variants of the F-15/16/18. I'll trust them though (three decades of development in doctrine and equipment), I won't presume as much that I know something that they don't. If we can have one plane to replace both the existing F-18's and 16's I'd take it especially if it is both low observable, has better range on internal fuel alone, and (in the case of the F-16) carry a larger payload, I can understand the demand for it. Also F-22's cost around ~$150million per aircraft, a "fleet" might not be viable.

>>32418749
I hate when people spout meaningless phrases like "jack of all trades, master of none". It's silly.

It's a master at being a stealthy STOVL fighter. It's a master at being a long range stealthy strike fighter.
It's a master at being a carrier based stealth fighter
It's a master at being a stealthy multi-role fighter.

The idea that the F-35 is somehow less capable or sub-par at whatever roles compared to the F-16 or F/A-18 is retarded. Do you hear these people saying "oh we should just buy more F-15's, the F-16 is a sub-par jack of all trades master of none"

>>32409850
The US navy could take in the world alone. The US Army certainly could not

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>>32409098

CTR when will they ever quit

>>32409866

>bruh the jobs don't even matter bruh just give them to mexico

Fuck that shitthole. They don't deserve not one single job whether it be drilling holes or picking berries. They're barely even a nation anymore
>tfw the Texas milita/US Army was literally stretched to thin to be able to conquer that desecrated anus of a landscape
>honestly they coulda done it if they tried

>>32418784

Strike Eagle exists therefore F-15 is also a jack of all trades master of none :^)

>>32419352
The F-35 doesn't have a variant dedicated to strike and a variant dedicated to air superiority with both having little ability outside of those roles.

So compared apples to oranges all you like.

>>32419352
sure. hence why phrases like that are meaningless and people who use them as if they are an objective analysis of a plane's abilities are retards