Simple concept

9mm is best tho

Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt .45 be a bad round for barrier penetration, being a large slow moving bullet, and 9mm be good for barrier penetration because its smaller and has alot higher velocity

>>32294611
>the manga guide: how to lie with statistics

>>32295543
this
higher velocity equals better penetration

None of them are good for barrier penetration. They're handguns, don't treat them like they're as capable as a rifle.

>>32294611
inb4 someone posts the ballistic gel comparison

.40 is fine for subs. 180/200 are nice and quiet. This chart is full of fuck.

>>32295543
Momentum is the important specification, which is calculated as mass times velocity. Projectiles with lots of momentum can go through bones, car doors, walls, etc., while retaining more of their their velocity. Think of throwing a microwave through a piece of drywall compared to throwing a baseball and what's going to happen to the person on the other side.

>>32295591
You're thinking of armor penetration. "Barrier" refers to bones, car doors, walls, etc.

>>32294611
Actually, .45 penetrates for shit.

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>>32295543
>>32295591
You make it sound like mass is strictly a negative. Increase in mass also increase penetration. It has a direct relationship, along with velocity. Imagine two rounds with the same velocity, but one has a higher mass. The higher mass bullet has more penetration power then the lower mass bullet, albeit the effective range decreases dramatically. The lower mass bullet initially has less, but the further it travels, it overtakes the other bullet in terms of energy as it starts losing velocity, and therfore energy, due to its weight.

This isn't just simple ballistics, it's middle school science.

>>32295635
Thank you.

180 sounds great out of my 45osprey

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If that's the case why aren't we using those snowflake Russian rounds like in the Vintorez?

>>32295827
>You make it sound like mass is strictly a negative. Increase in mass also increase penetration. It has a direct relationship, along with velocity. Imagine two rounds with the same velocity, but one has a higher mass. The higher mass bullet has more penetration power then the lower mass bullet,
Correct.
>albeit the effective range decreases dramatically. The lower mass bullet initially has less, but the further it travels, it overtakes the other bullet in terms of energy as it starts losing velocity, and therfore energy, due to its weight.
Incorrect.

>This isn't just simple ballistics, it's middle school science.
Well, it's a little above middle school level, but if that's where you learned how to do physics, then I'd give you a B.

>>32295591
Not necessarily.

Kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2, which means higher velocity means MORE kinetic energy because it scales exponentially so in a numbers sense yes. It completely depends on the cross section of the bullet and the material. It may very well be that a 20 gram bullet moving at 300m/s (900J) may penetrate more armor than even a 40 gram bullet moving at 400 m/s (3200J) despite being half as massive and 3/4 as slow with less than 30% of the Kinetic energy if the 20 gram bullet had a much smaller cross section (less ballistic resistance inside said material), deformed less (was harder), and was denser.

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>>32294611
fixed

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>>32295635
Fixed.

>>32294611
I get that 147gr 9mm, not unlike heavier .45, is naturally subsonic but exactly why do you not think that .40 could be loaded at subsonic 200gr or something and be superior to both?

>>32295975
See: >>32295951

>>32295903
You didn't learn basic physics equations in middle school? Where do you live?

>>32295951
This 180gr 40 is sub.

>>32295903
>incorrect
I think you took it as me saying the lower mass bullet GAINS energy, which im not. And im speaking in terms of a general physics sense, not shooting from 200 yards where its negligible. Take note, I said they share the same velocity, meaning higher weight, drag, and other forces mean the lower mass will travel further, retaining more energy.

>higher than middle school
I learned about momentum in middle school.

>>32296036
Anon he's right though increasing mass does not decrease the range in your hypothetical situation. The increase in mass will increase sectional density and increase ballistic coefficient without increasing drag. Therefore the range would increase.

>>32295951
So 40S&W, the round that in constantly being shit on, is actually the best?

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>>32295951
Fixed

>>32296158
No. But that said it does have the capability of checking all of those boxes.

It's a jack of all trades master of none. With 40 you can push 180-200gr bullets that are slow and have a nice subsonic round. Or put in some 135s and zing them along rather quick. It has more recoil but offers some advantages in some aspects.
In the typical roles you need a gun though 9mm and 45 can do what it does equally well and typically better.

Also 10mm best millimeter

>>32294611
...45 is good for barrier penetration.

i thought with barriers, smaller and faster was a better than slow ad heavy.

>>32295721
Came here to say this.

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>>32296158
Maybe this new edit helps illustrate further the capacity difference between 9mm and .40. Both are high capacity, but 9mm holds more.

>>32296221
>It's a jack of all trades master of none.
That's just a meme.

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>>32296234
That's armor. Barrier means bones, car doors, or walls.

>>32295609
barrier penetration usually means "can it effectively pierce a car door and still kill?" not like blasting through cover or anytthing

>>32296273
>barrier penetration usually means "can it effectively pierce a car door and still kill?"
That would put .380 as a good perpetrator.

>>32296247
>That's just a meme.
Yeah but is it a meme if it's true?
Of course cause everything's a meme.

This is best chart yet.

In defense of 40 it's not a bad round. It's just it's a pointless round.

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You guys are retarded. Pic related is the only infograph you need to figure out the caliber for you.

Because it's wrong and you're gay.

>>32296289
pretty sure the .357 magnum was invented solely because .38spl was being stopped and or deflected by car doors and the police needed something that could punch through them.

if you're talking about .380 acp that is even worse at it than .38spl so that wouldn't be accurate

>>32296350
>pretty sure the .357 magnum was invented solely because .38spl was being stopped and or deflected by car doors and the police needed something that could punch through them.
>1930's
You're an idiot.
And yes, a .380 can punch through very thin aluminum and steel.

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>>32296355

>>32296400
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

>>32295543
More mass=more momentum=more penetration (depending on what it's penetrating. Hard barriers meet the "depending on" part).

I just don't get why you all bitch all day long about "MUH SUPERIOR!" When 9mm and .45 are both fun as hell...

Fuck .40 though. That shit shoulda never existed.

>>32296535
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum
>Literally proving you're an idiot
Car manufacturers thinned the metal and switched to aluminum to improve MPG.
Gun manufacturers also created hotter loads since the 1930's.
You do realize you're acting like nothing changed since the 1930's, right?

>>32296579
>More mass=more momentum=more penetration
Velocity is more important than mass
>lern2in2physics

>>32296614
For energy, not for momentum.

>>32296613
do you always get so emotionally invested into online debates

>>32296247
>>It's a jack of all trades master of none.
To be fair, it makes some sacrifices to achieve its performance.
Recoil is harsher than 9mm, it's louder and much more concussive from a short barrel, and you may lose a little bit of capacity (which is way overblown).
The best thing going for it though is that it's damn easy to find a good gun chambered in it for cheap, thanks to police trade-ins

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>>32296614
>learn2physics
Momentum in a Newtonian system is just
Mass*Velocity
A bullet with some x mass going at y speed, let's say.
You have a bigger bullet that's 1.5 times the mass of x, but it's shot at about 80% the speed.
You're left with (1.5)x*(0.8)y
A bullet with these parameters would have 1.2 times the kinetic energy of the normal bullet. So, in essence, speed tends to not vary as much as mass does, so in handgun calibers at least a bigger bullet going not quite as fast is still more kinetic energy.

>>32299298
>kinetic energy
Isn't kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity SQUARED

>>32294611

If you want penetration and capacity from a .40, why not use .357 Sig?

.357 Sig is literally just really fast 9mm

>>32294611
short and weak

>>32296876
Do you always consider being called an idiot a debate?

>>32296264
Source? That's scawy

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>>32296613
Lel

considering my local PD had to stop carrying .45 years ago because the rounds overpenetrated multiple times and hit bystanders, it is likely the 45 does fine.

>>32295899
Because we have no firearms imported in the United States that shoot that cartridge, anon.

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>>32299807
>Contributes nothing
>1/10 troll
Nigga, you want me to teleport behind you?

>>32294611
(You)