Are banzai/bayonet charges really outdated?

The biggest problem would be negating the automatic weapons of the defending unit. In most modern armies there are up to 9 automatic weapons per platoon specifically trained to stop such attacks

File: 1459107241555.png (463KB, 1200x975px) Image search: [Google]

463KB, 1200x975px

>>32250973
>You can't call down an airstrike when the enemy is right on top of you

>>32251038

A shield on weals? Like a steal pavise? Maybe with its own machine gun mounted on it?

>>32250973
Bayonet charges were outdated during the Napoleonic wars. Doesn't mean they can't be used to kill people, just that there are better ways to do so.

>>32251186

What about tactics designed to close the gap, rather than shoot at a distance?

>>32251158
and maybe some more wheels and a motor, oh wait thats what an APC is

>>32251230

We should drive the APCs into the enemies. Try to run them over!

>>32251217
thats literally the goal of fire and maneuver, a fire support element and an advancing element is literally the bread and butter of modern combat where you been senpai

large scale zerg rushing with large forces?

no, that was over by the civil war

MAYBE when its small unit vs units that are numerically similar. And even then the distance between the two shouldnt be more than a few meters. and at that youd need to ambush from concealment.

So maybe a "charge" is not going to work, But an ambush is still definitely a last ditch attempt that may work

This isnt the 19th century friend.
It doesn't work like that anymore.

>>32251245
There are vids of IS just running over unarmed fleeing soldiers people with tanks. p good stuff.

File: libyan sword man.jpg (99KB, 549x773px)

99KB, 549x773px

>>32251368
It can in a sufficiently mixed-tech environment if you try hard enough.

>>32250973
>I feel like this over-reliance on fire-power is a weakness. The British at least still have bayonets.
Everyone still has bayonets because the cost to make a knife mount on a rifle is negligible, while the utility of a knife is high.

The British bayonet charges were done out of desperation against 3rd rate foes. Any semi competent force would destroy someone doing a bayonet charge in the modern era.
~
Firepower is what wins battles and wars. To movement towards grenade based projectile weapons and the further integration of mechanized supporting elements will keep pushing the balance of the battlefield towards those with the most firepower at hand.

>>32251368
>>32252929
what if syrian rebels launched bayonets loaded in a civil war era canon? Sword artillery, if you will.

>>32251038
>In most modern armies there are up to 9 automatic weapons per platoon specifically trained to stop such attacks

Do they really train them specifically to stop organized bayonet charges? Like in ww1?

Thats awesome if they do, but im skeptical

>>32252986
They are trained to shoot people running across open ground.

>>32253010
But are they trained to deal with suddenly seeing hundreds of people spanning their entire field of vision running towards their lines? How will they react in this situation? Have they trained for it?

Charges worked in the face of machine gun emplacements in ww1. Of course they often failed, but then ww1 machine gunners were trained to deal with this, this is what they expected to happen and they responded appropriately to it - and they still got overran sometimes.
So what would happen today?

>>32251186
>Bayonet charges were outdated during the Napoleonic wars.
Nigga what the fuck are you talking about

>>32253035
If you charge a patrol with a division of infantry doing a bayonet charge you will over run them.

Good job. But you will take in the range of 500 to 1 casualties.

Effective range for a GPMG is about 900m or trace burn out, but will shoot lethal rounds out to 2km or more.

Having hundreds of people run directly towards you while not shooting is a dead easy target environment. No need to adjust to lead your shots, no need to react to people popping up and down. You just align on the person and give a short burst then move onto the next person.

Add into your MG fire all the riflemen taking shots as fast as they can line it up and you can turn back a huge force with a small patrol.

"people spanning their entire field of vision running towards their lines"

Those poor fuckers are getting cut down.

The reason the military practices section attacks is because it fucking annoying as fuck shooting at people that run then hit the ground only to take a shot or two at you then pop up and run again.

If you have a wall of people running directly at you in a human wave it's going to be a slaughter.

>>32253035
Why would a single patrol be walking head on into an invasion force? Why weren't they briefed about the large enemy encampment? Where was their recon? Why is the enemy charging a single patrol?

>>32253146
Two words: Korea.

>>32253156
We have time machines now?!

>>32253115
Theoretically.

But if all those guys charging the position are also letting off shots with their rifles as they go, and the unit buckles or panics- Which most people would- Then it'd work better than you'd think

>>32250973

Do you know the kill and casualty radii of regular M67s?

>>32253264
Except you'd either have to slow down or stop completely to shoot, which kills the momentum of your charge.

If you have a such a gross numbers advantage, there is literally nothing stopping you from keeping half your force stationary to suppress enemy MGs while the other half advances under their covering fire.

>>32253264
>But if all those guys charging the position are also letting off shots with their rifles as they go
Then your not talking about a bayonet charge.

>>32250973
You see, bayonet charges in general were done for little bit different reason than you think. In the age of civilised warfare, some odd few % of combatants died from bayonets even though bayonet charges were ever-present.

The goal of bayonet charge is to disorganise the enemy unit and make them start a retreat. It's a terrain-denial and morale game. The attacking unit usually exposed its flanks though(which could end in enemy cavalry destroying it in the process), so it required good coordination with other units, providing fire support and securing flanks, but overall it was perfect mean of pushing the enemy out of good vantage points and such. As civilised battles usually ended when one of the armies was put into position where it could've been destroyed(but rarely when they were actually destroyed), this was important element of the battlefield.

It also worked wonders in colonies, because for primitive peoples, demonstration of power is the most important factor to consider and bayonet charges are great demonstrations of power. Current conflicts aren't that different from colonial conflicts in many ways.

If there is a huge chance of performing it successfully, with secure flanks, relatively friendly terrain, artillery and supporting units pinning down the enemy etc. it's a viable tactic that does the exact same thing it did hundreds of years ago. It makes enemy retreat out of his position, sometimes even giving up the fight. The question whether it will serve as good enough demonstration of power to destroy the willpower to fight is, however, more complicated and I can't really answer it.

The plinking and over-reliance on firepower is definitely a weakness in case of the current colony-policing style operations but due to public pressure you can't really do late Chechen war, with village burning and reckless assaults so you have to deal with it.

>>32253600

Also, by maintaining the threat of a bayonet or cavalry charge you prevent your opponent from dispersing his infantry formations (or even forcing them to form a square against cavalry), making them more vulnerable to massed musket-fire and artillery which struggles to target individual soldiers at range..

>>32251217
Something called "squad attack" or "platoon attack", or even "company attack", all dependant on scale.

Turning long shots into shorter, easier shots is something literally everyone does. Maneuver warfare just tries to limit friendly casualties.

>>32253035
>be weapons squad leader
>observe the front line of an autist human wave, complete with shit-woad and home-made spear
>commence belly laughter and point and two point on the ground for the 240s to set up
>jerk off while standing behind gunline, having long since given the "fire and adjust" command to your AGs.

>>32251186
Actually I'd say Crimean War marked the beginning of the end of Napoleonic tactics, including bayonet-charging after discharging firelocks. Long range-artillery bombardment, improved field artillery, and increased use and effectiveness of rifles due to the invention of the Minié ball made it advantageous to engage at longer range.

Still needed to charge when storming a breach, though, and usually you just had the one shot before. So bayonet remained useful.

The American Civil War was what made the world recognize that modern arms had made Napoleonic tactics obsolete.

I should tripcode on here for the number of times I weigh in on military history. Afraid people will call me a faggot, though.

>>32253264
You don't realize that a human wave attack is any MGers wet dream. No Fuck Fuck games with suppressing fire, no relocating, not even really aiming, just making ng the bad bitch sing. Three things are going to make those MGs stop: you bayonetted the gunner, he ran out of ammo or he melted down all of his barrels. Either way, there's going to be a fucking abattoir in his field of fire.

File: Cannon.jpg (39KB, 660x371px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 660x371px

>>32251368

Somebody should inform the Middle East that.

>>32252960
Common tactic when ammo was scarce during age of sail.