So how good is modern russian special force actually? /k/ will

way to let a handful of muzzies kill nearly 400 of your children, russian special forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege

>>32165123
They're shit. Always have been, always will be. Go back to mainling krokodil Ivan.

>>32165146
They got the job done though.

>>32165151
Explain their success in Crimea and Syria then.

Their local-backed and trained forces are much better than western-backed ones.

Better than their reputation would suggest. As much as people memespout about "muh hundreds dead" in those large sieges in the 2000s (Beslan, that theater, etc.), their actual hostage survival rate was utterly prodigious given the circumstances. Its reasonable to say that their western counterparts could not have handled situations of such magnitude so well (Would a western outfit to consider sleeping gas? Hard to know), though hopefully we will never have to test that theory.

>>32165152
'We changed the wheels on your car, but there was an accident and now the clutch is shot, the windows are smashed and it won't start; but we got the job done'.

>>32165187
Terrorists are killed.

I don't remember if the french got all the terrorists in the Paris attack.

>>32165187
more than half of the hostage was saved
unlike 9 11

>>32165172
>Standard Russian army personnel beat irregulars
No shit.
>Dropping bombs on people with no AA capability
Impressive. You sound cranky, better start cooking up some more pills and diesel.

>>32165192
>>32165194
>(you)

>>32165205
Are you implying russian regulars are fighting in Syria?

I thought it's mostly special forces and advisors who train the SAA.

>>32165205
>Dropping bombs on people with no AA capability
they have lost 2 Mi-35M by IS MANPAD
and FSA is know to operate several Strela

>>32165187
>32 hardened and experienced Chechen terrorists with AKs and PKM, with snipers set up on rooftops to discourage police and IEDs placed all around the school for good measure
>(for comparison, the Iranian embassy siege the SAS is famous for consisted of 4 students with pistols and an smg)
>Over 1100 hostages crowded into a gymnasium with terrorists hiding among them
>All hostages rigged with explosives
>Each terrorist equipped with detonator, so the moment they suspect the authorities are making a move the whole place goes sky high with no survivors
>In spite of this, Hostage rescue were still able secure the school with no detonation and a 70% survival rate for hostages
Its easy to criticize a situation you have never had to deal with, when you have the benefit of hindsight. They performed admirably and there's really nothing else to be said.

>>32165192
Most of them had suicide vests

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>>32165123
Considering the last "Russian Special Forces" thread , you're not going to get much out of people who can't differentiate between "Spetsnaz" and think FSB and MVD SF(despite the fact that they are under FSVNG RF command now) are the same as military "spetsnaz", while spouting Beslan memes.

Russian SF is just like any other SF, police and military, most of their "SF" have direct analogues to US SF or European SF units.
They do regularly engage in more "aggressive" tactics against insurgents in the South but they're just following the line: "We don't negotiate with terrorists" to the letter. They also engage in lots of propaganda and parade type shit, which honestly looks pretty silly to us westerners, but it's just for shits and giggles for them.

>>32165224
The majority of the forces in Syria are marines.
GRU and GRU VMF do the training, advisory work, and recon.

>>32165123
Russian SF are more experienced than any other western counterparts beacuse they deal with jihadist wannabe's on a weekly basis
The shills always come with the Moscow Theatre, Beslan and the Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis
These was in the 90's when the russian army was a chaos also the mastermind behind them is Shamil Basayev trained by the GRU to do shit like that

>>32165123
They're so good that they kill everybody.

>>32167328
also what can you do with dead man triggers and IED's its easy to shittalk but the US never had to face something like that, and in my opinion russian SF handled them pretty well

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they remove kebab

>>32165146
Lets see the fbi do a better job in that situation

>>32165146
at least US showed during the Waco siege how its done

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>>32167506
i am about to post this

>>32165146
>According to military prosecutor, a BTR armoured vehicle drove close to the school and opened fire from its 14.5×114mm KPV heavy machine gun at the windows on the second floor. Eyewitnesses (among them Totoonti and Kesayev) and journalists saw two T-72 tanks advance on the school that afternoon, at least one of which fired its 125 mm main gun several times.

Damn, these guys don't fuck around

>>32167556
it was fucked up from the begining beacuse mad "civis" started shhoting at the school
When the OMON and SOBR arrived there was already a shootout so they joined in
Then started to play the negotiation card but that didn't worked out (other then the terrorist released a couple kids)
I heard the OMON guys used RPG's
Even Basayev said it was a tragic event

>>32167328

Especially since 2001, US SF have been more or less continually in operation worldwide. From the mountains of Afghanistan, the cities of Iraq, the deserts of Syria, the jungles of Colombia & the the Phillipines, and the general shittiness of African countries like Libya and Somalia.

The Russians, of course, say the US SF are too active globally https://www.rt.com/usa/316476-us-forces-deployed-worldwide/

>>32167556
Tbh all hostage situations should be handled this way

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the classic btr thru wall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gXdjLD9Akg

>>32169467
One of my dreams is to make an APC that unloads out the front so that it can ram through buildings and inject angry slavs directly into the room.

>>32169483

That or a land raider full of assault terminators.

>>32167458
What's the optic Mount in the First few Seconds? Also fuck Kebab.

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>>32165277
Pretty much. The US doesn't have as much experience with threats of that magnitude, it's usually some lone wolf or a teenager who got bullied too much, even then the LAPD ends up shooting some innocent bystanders.

>>32170047
>Compareing russian military to the LAPD.

Well, that says it all.

>>32167259
Can you tell us their different units and their US/Euro counterparts?

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This was always going to be another Beslan thread, wasn't it?

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>>32170167
Sure thing m8, remember these are not always 1 to 1.
I'll also include other government agencies.
>SVR = CIA
>FSB = FBI
>MVD = Homeland Security
>FSVNG RF = National Guard, most units under MVD were transferred under this command this year when it was created.
>KSO = US SOCOM

Military
>GRU = Delta/Green Berets
>GRU VMF = A mix between SEALs and Raiders, they don't have anybody that's like DEVGRU
>SVR Zaslon = CIA SAD, general spook shit
>45th VDV Recon = A mix between MARSOC/Raiders and Army Rangers


Police
>FSB (A and B(V)) = FBI HRT
>OMON = European Gendarmeries, like the French National Gendarmerie
>FSKN = DEA
>SOBR = Local SWAT teams
>604th Special Purpose Center = German BFE+, a national rapid reaction counter terrorism force
>FSO = USSS
>TsSN "Senezh" = Functions and has roles like FSB(FBI HRT) but answers directly to KSO

Don't think I missed any.
>Pic is FSKN

>>32165123

...Was this photo taken on Mother Base?

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>>32170951

You forgot FSIN, responsible for hunting down escaped convicts and responding to prison riots.

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>>32170951
Did you do pice related?

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>>32171100

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>>32171100
Nope, but I was in that thread when it was created. That anon's list is more detailed but it's a bit dated now that FSVNG RF and KSO exist; also some of his analogies are off in my opinion, like GRU VMF is much more comparable to SEALs than DEVGRU, Army GRU and Senezh usually does the DEVGRU type shit.
>>32171068
kek FSIN

>>32165173
That was WACO. FBI pumped in sleeping gas which was extremely flammable, whole place caught fire, 70 dead.

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>>32171234
Also the Russians are really secretive about this stuff, I wish there were more pictures of military spetsnaz in the field
>same guy in previous post

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>>32171306

>>32165172
But, anon, we can't send military assistance to the Ukraine! That might antagonize the enemy power already invading and annexing our ally!

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>>32171306
Luckily the Russian involvement in Syria has provided us with a lot of new material

>>32165173
>their actual hostage survival rate was utterly prodigious given the circumstances.
Nigger what.
They prematurely demolished entire walls of the school for no reason before the assault.

>>32171496
>I feel like the gas was a fuck up.

What is your proposed solution, given the circumstances with the explosives placed around the auditorium terrorists with suicide vests hiding among the hostages? Honestly its hard to think of a way that operation could have gone better. When you think about it, the fact that the large majority of hostages taken made it out alive and unharmed is pretty damned miraculous.

>>32171775

They could have gotten the dosage right.

They also could have told the medics what they were using so they could treat people.

>>32171496
>Pic related not doing its job very well

Mi-35s in Russian service are not currently equipped with President-S to the best of my knowledge.

Besides that, neither of the two Mi-35s lost were due to MANPADs. One was hit by cannon fire while doing a strafing run, the other suffered a technical malfunction and was forced to land, and was later taken out on the ground.

>>32171828

>Mi-35s in Russian service are not currently equipped with President-S to the best of my knowledge.

Whose fault is that. Shit is standard on US choppers in military zones. (And no, not President S obviously, but equivalent active and passive countermeasures).

Regarding the helicopters - all I remember is that they absolutely fucked up the rescue effort.

>>32171826
>They could have gotten the dosage right

They intentionally upped the dosage due to the extreme risk posed by any of the hostage takers not being immediately incapacitated and detonating the bombs. Still, if the first responders had handled the incapacitated hostages properly (e.g. not laying them down with their heads rolled back, causing their tongues to block their airways) losses would have been much lower, since IIRC suffocation was the main cause of death.

>They also could have told the medics what they were using so they could treat people.

This one only applies to the hostages who died later at the hospital, and not to the majority that died at the scene while awaiting medical transport. Still, this one lies with the FSB itself, as they were the ones who refused to disclose which gas was used. The special forces teams are not at fault.

>>32170951
Thanks lad, it's always good to learn something new on /k/

>>32171853
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtY3r71UrFk

It got hit by a recoilless rifle while on the ground after an emergency landing. Most likely would have been destroyed by the rescue team anyways as there was no way to bring it back to base. I fail to see the fuck up.

Pilots both survived without injury btw.

>>32171919

>They intentionally upped the dosage due to the extreme risk posed by any of the hostage takers not being immediately incapacitated and detonating the bombs. Still, if the first responders had handled the incapacitated hostages properly (e.g. not laying them down with their heads rolled back, causing their tongues to block their airways) losses would have been much lower, since IIRC suffocation was the main cause of death.

If your argument is that the gas prevented charges from being detonated, that is simply wrong. The units storming the theater faced active resistance.

>This one only applies to the hostages who died later at the hospital, and not to the majority that died at the scene while awaiting medical transport. Still, this one lies with the FSB itself, as they were the ones who refused to disclose which gas was used. The special forces teams are not at fault.

You can't separate the two. That's like saying US SOF isn't shit because they lost all their helicopters before even starting the operation.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw)

>>32171958

You fail to see how that would have been two downed helicopters if the hostiles knew how to pick their targets?

>>32171256
they pumped in tear gas and the WACO tards set themselves on fire

>>32172037
>If your argument is that the gas prevented charges from being detonated, that is simply wrong. The units storming the theater faced active resistance.

Yes, the gas failed to reach every room of the theater, and a few of the terrorists remained conscious. However, the gas was most concentrated in the auditorium, where all of the hostages, the bombs, and most of the hostage takers were located. Nobody in that room was still standing by the time Alfa/Vympel stormed in.

>You can't separate the two. That's like saying US SOF isn't shit because they lost all their helicopters before even starting the operation.

US SOF isn't shit, but I do see where you're coming from here.

>You fail to see how that would have been two downed helicopters if the hostiles knew how to pick their targets?

The are the hind landed in was open and vulnerable, not to mention the fact that they went down in an enemy controlled area. A pretty shitty situation all around, but things don't always go perfectly. The rescue team responded quickly to the situation and got the hell out of there with the pilots. Not sure what else you could expect.

>>32172252

>US SOF isn't shit, but I do see where you're coming from here.

Poor phrasing. Point is that you can't separate command / supporting equipment/personnel from effectiveness of the unit. It clearly affects the unit's ability to carry out the mission directly.

>The are the hind landed in was open and vulnerable, not to mention the fact that they went down in an enemy controlled area. A pretty shitty situation all around, but things don't always go perfectly. The rescue team responded quickly to the situation and got the hell out of there with the pilots. Not sure what else you could expect.

Keep the second chopper moving. Find and suppress enemy positions. Air and/or artillery support (especially true for the downed pilot situation).

>Yes, the gas failed to reach every room of the theater, and a few of the terrorists remained conscious. However, the gas was most concentrated in the auditorium, where all of the hostages, the bombs, and most of the hostage takers were located. Nobody in that room was still standing by the time Alfa/Vympel stormed in.

The argument is that they could have used less to incapacitate but not kill. On the other hand, it's not like I know shit about how these things work, so its hard to say how good of a calculation/trade off it was.

>>32172730
>Poor phrasing. Point is that you can't separate command / supporting equipment/personnel from effectiveness of the unit. It clearly affects the unit's ability to carry out the mission directly.

Fair enough.

>Keep the second chopper moving.

It was taking off at the start of the video. My guess is that it had landed to pick up the pilots.
Very doubtful that it had just been sitting there before the video started.

> Find and suppress enemy positions. Air and/or artillery support (especially true for the downed pilot situation).

I don't really know enough from watching the 2 minute video to comment on this. In the video we see a Vystrel, Tigr, Mi-8 and some dismounted infantry, but it's unlikely that those were the only resources being used in the rescue effort. There might have been more helos operating overhead (pretty likely in fact, since Hinds usually operate in pairs) and artillery support on standby, but we just don't know based on the available information.

>The argument is that they could have used less to incapacitate but not kill.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. If they had been wrong in the other direction (not enough gas used), it likely would have been remembered as the operation where 100% of the hostages and the entire assault team went up in a massive explosion. It's important to remember that the Moscow Theater crisis was the first ever hostage taking of that scale (rivaled only by Beslan). When you consider how many much smaller hostage situations have gone wrong, I feel that it's really difficult to fault the Russian SF on the results they achieved.

>On the other hand, it's not like I know shit about how these things work, so its hard to say how good of a calculation/trade off it was.

Neither of us know shit. We're just two idiots arguing on a Chinese cartoon image board.

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>>32170951
>TsSN "Senezh"
I read this as "Tzeentch"

>>32171234
Why is Al-Amaq, the news of ISIS taking a picture of Russian SF?

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>>32173244
Probably found the picture of them floating around the internet and used it to report on Russian SF presence.
>>32173230
kek

>>32173244
The pic was taken from the phone of a dead Russian SF spotter

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>>32173345
rip

>>32173382
ON MY POSITION

>>32171114
All police SWAT teams and other not-army specnaz now are National Guard. Army and GRU special forces, more likely are part of united SSO command.

>>32165146
>400 of your children

Ossetian* children.

Russians is minority in Caucasus. It's like people forget Russia has 160+ different ethnicities living inside it's borders.

>>32171526
Russians have an amazing tendency to be satisfied with the absolute worse.

>people using the theatre as an example of Russian SF being shit
The actual operation was a huge success,
>40 terrorists, armed with grenades and strapped with explosives, all killed
>no operative casualties
Retard first responders and bureaucrats ruined it.

If something like Beslan happens in the west, I wonder what would be the outcome.

>>32173382
ON MY POSITION

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45th VDV in Crimea.

>>32175376
An absolute shitshow no doubt, the west has not the experience nor the capability to respond to a situation like that. Best case scenario it happens in place like the US where there is real institutional knowledge on hostage rescue, rather than say Australia where you'd just end up with the farce that was the Sydney cafe siege but with even more fumbling about and casualties. Even then it would be a bad day.

>>32169935
I`m quite sure it`s a holographic sight from EOTech, to bad I couldn`t find a better source, but i rememebr the video in good quality and it`s defenetely a holo sight

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>>32170951
No gign counterparts

>>32175376
>>32176011

If it's going to happen, it'll happen after the defeat of ISIS as a conventional force and the Syrian Civil War winds down. The worst caucus Islamist-separatist attacks happened after they were militarily defeated in Chechnya, and they looked for a way to strike back.

Once the remnants of ISIS and Nusra shave off their beards and disappear, expect them to pop up in Europe.

>>32176098
I hope it happens, would be a nice wakeup call for the West (if shitton other terrorist attacks haven't already) and we can see how well-trained the West is.

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>>32169935
(i`m the >>32176078) Found it: https://youtu.be/O1VmKdWtSpE?t=16

>>32175376
American schools build different, they are not fortresses with double layered brick walls and only few entrances. Beslan was worse-case scenario and Russians fucked up crowd control there.
>>32170951
>FSB = FBI
Investigative Committee of Russia = FBI
FSB = Homeland Security
MVD = Police.

FSO - Secret service but without Financial Crimes
Also, all their para-military operator groups are under control of FSVNG RF, even local OMON.

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>>32173382
ON MY POSITION

>>32176119

It will be quite the dilemma if it turns out that some of those "vulnerable women" they are importing are the widows of Islamists killed in Western air strikes.

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>>32169483
You see vlad, we first destroy building and look then for survive

>>32173382
On my Position

>>32173382
ON MY POSITION

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ON MY POSITION!

Зaнял пoзицию.

>>32176936
Aнyc пpигoтoвил?

>>32171319

What is the gun the guy on the left is holding? It looks like it's in 9mm, but it looks like an AK74

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>>32177488

Vityaz-SN with camo, looks like the same rail system too, Zenit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vityaz-SN

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>>32173382
ON MY POSITION!

>>32165146
As opposed to american special forces, way to let a handful of muzzies kill 2,996 people during 9/11?

>>32170951

>MVD = Homeland Security

Tricky, as the united states has no analogue to an internal affairs ministry, also what would be the in the scope of homeland security would most often fall under the FSB in Russia.

>>32171958
what is the other heli doing there whizing around 2 meters above ground. Shouldn't it get the fuck out of there?

i don't realy get the reactions of the soldiers there too. Someone driving off without the others, people running around. what is going on there?

>>32176134
Thanks!

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>>32178153
Rewatching the video, doesn't it kinda seem like the Mi-8 was trying to kick up a smokescreen to provide cover for the ground crew? I can't think of anything else that would explain it's behavior.

The other points you brought up are had to answer based on the video alone. If only we had footage from the perspective of the ground crew, it might spread some light on what was happening.

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>>32177327
Кyдa ж я бeз нeгo.

>>32178461

>all these excuses

It just landed and sat there, because crew didn't perceive threat.

>>32180132
Watch the video again, it was taking off before the Hind was even hit.

>because crew didn't perceive threat.

Yeah, because the rescue team was so fucking incompetent that they didn't perceive any danger while doing a rescue op on a recently downed chopper behind enemy lines. Are you serious?

>>32180177

Yes I am serious. It takes off literally a second before we hear the shot. You do know what the speed of sound is, right? And the fact that most weapons are barely supersonic.

>>32180202
>Yes I am serious. It takes off literally a second before we hear the shot. You do know what the speed of sound is, right? And the fact that most weapons are barely supersonic.

Wait, what? Where do you think the shot was coming from that the helo pilot heard it before the camera does? Your post makes zero sense.

Not only that, but that'd be a pretty impressive feat on the part of the pilot, to not only hear the shot of the recoilless rifle over the sound of his engine, but to react so quickly that he was already off the ground by the time it impacted.

>>32179858
Guy on the left looks like he's making the "call me" gesture

>>32165146
>over 100 attackers
>"handful"

>>32170047
Source on this?

>>32180300
It was 24 attackers. Very heavily armed and highly prepared attackers, mind you, but definitely not over 100

>>32167475
Fbi =/= american equivalent of spetsnaz

>>32180311

I already told you. Fake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlCdxeix4-U

>>32165277
man, that sounds like something out of a movie

>>32170951
what about GROM?
like in this guy's pic
>>32167259

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>>32165277
>No detonation.

Actually, the assault on the school started when one of the terrorist's bombs that was improperly secured fell and detonated. That's what caused the roof to collapse and forced Vympel to prematurely storm the school before Alfa had arrived on the scene.

https://youtu.be/59ZlKRzoHm0

>>32180450

Use google once in a while:

>"Grom" Unit («Гpoм») - A special unit designed to fight against illegal drugs crimes and Narco-Mafia[4]

>>32180494

At least post actual videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N6DYxiXL8c

>>32180530
mostly just posted for sake of completeness :^)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_obdLIgti-I

>>32180594

Plz no.

Spetsnaz do not use Systema. They use combat sambo. Systema is literally a few guys spamming their marketing bs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zCj3nqaauE&feature=youtu.be

>>32180625
They are use Unibos and Bars.
Universal'naja boevaja sistems and Boevaja armeyskaja sistema.

>>32180746

No, they don't. Systema, as you understand it, is ALL 2 fat guys in Toronto, Canada acting like they are teaching Spetsnaz secrets. They have never shown any practical capability.

There is AN old Systema that was used by SMERCH (you don't know what that is, but google it). This is from before WW II days. There are no teachers left of it and Spetsnaz does not use it.

>>32180746

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMX72bZ1Ufg

>>32180781
SMERSH.
CMEPШ.
CMEPть Шпиoнaм.
Death for spy.
I'm Russian.

>>32180781
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81

>>32180819
>>32180839

2:21

>pokazivayut vovinam
>pirichislivayut vsyakuyu xuinyu

Nope. Still don't think it's used.

>>32180911
According BARS prepared conscripts.
According UNIBOS - Special Forces.