PDW Thread?

>>32049658
They aren't obsolete. There just isn't a round in existence that is best for this role.
Bottle neck pistol cartridges like 5.7x28 are a start but they are not good enough.
R&D for making new ammo and weapons is expensive but that is nothing compared to the risk of being a failure on the open market.
The criteria for a good PDW round would be.
>2000-3000 fps MV at 16" or less
>55-100gr bullets
>G7 type bullets
>Any caliber theoretically, but...
>...high sectional density for penetrating armor
>Total cartridge length possibly 2" or under
>Standard capacity magazines 15-30 rounds

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The PDW concept is interesting however with advancements in service rifles especially in the US they become semi-irrelevant.

A p90 is about 5.7 pounds

while a loaded M4 comes in at about 7.5 pounds.

So instead of saving 1.8 pounds

You don't sacrifice combat efficacy
You don't need to procure expensive proprietary guns and ammunition
You don't need to add another layer of training to use the PDW's
You don't further complicate your logistics.

Make sense?

>>32050178
The whole point is size and portability. Vehicle crews, pilots etc etc. It's definitely a niche role, and not a very important one worth pouring millions into.

Bottom line, we're not likely to see any great strides in this area anytime soon.

>>32050178
The whole point of something like the p90 was that it's 5.7 is more effective out of its 10.4 inch barrel than 5.56 is out of the m4's 14 or 10.4 inch barrel. Losing combat efficacy is intrinsic to using a glorified pistol as a service rifle

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>>32049658
Let's be real. This is an AR-15 with a 60 round drum.
However, I have a conceal carry "handgun" permit for the great state of Ohio.
The permit does not allow me to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in my car. I can have any handgun I want in the car and in any manner I like such as in the seat next to me, on the floor, loaded or whatever.
That is a pretty big advantage to this as a handgun and why I have no desire to form-1 a stock on it.

>>32051046
The whole point of the p90 was so that people whose primary role isn't fighting, such as military truck drivers, can have a tiny, high capacity weapon on them that they can spray and pray with.

I feel like bullpups are more likely to be used, as they can have rifle rounds in a relatively short platform.

The concept is still pretty neat though, I think they look cool.

>>32051779
It was also designed with CQB in mind, the very short for end for rounding corners.

>>32049658
No one needs a meme round in a military role.

In a tactical role, SMGs like the MP5 are still better because they shoot pistol rounds and not weird armor-piercing memes.

Barrel length really doesn't matter that much with rifles, 5.56 out of an SBR is kind of the exception. We could be moving to .300 Blackout as an SBR round and it would probably be better since shit like the SIG MXC is already fucking tiny as shit, and more guns are chambered for it.

>>32051802
>no one needs
SHALL

>>32051808
There is no Right to Bear Memes in the Constitution.

>>32051802
>meme this meme that

What the fuck is with kids and calling every dam thing a meme?

How is one of the only real technically innovative cartridge to come out in recent years a meme? Because it isn't widely available?

>>32051911
It's not one round. It's that EVERY SINGLE PDW has its own round.

>>32051931
That PDW in the OP sure looks like fires 5.56...

>>32049973

Take a 10mm Auto cartridge
* Neck it down to 7.62mm or 5.56mm
* Or sleeve a 5.56mm slug into a sabot

You'll get 2300fps
You'll get 50 or 60 grain slugs.

Or better yet there's this neglected obscure round called the 10mm Magnum which is alot like a 10 Auto except its normal magnum length case instead of 1 inch.

>>32050178
The M4 Sucks

It literally becomes the "pokes holes in people" kind of rifle people complain about it being. The fabled effectiveness of the 5.56mm round is when you use 18+ inch barrels.

With the new EPR rounds maybe not but the jury is still out on that.

But if you're going to just be poking holes in people you shouldnt be using a full size rifle with a 30 round magazine capacity to do it.

And you need a really fast 3 shot burst so that you can make sure the person gets 3 holes in them.

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>>32051998
>not shooting .50 Beowulf from a 6" barrel
Do you even personal defense?

>>32051802

I would agree but the point of a PDW is being able to reach out 200 yards, as well a penetrate body armor.

You can hit someone that far away with an mp5 but there's a flat chance you're just going to miss no matter how well you aim, thats not an effective caliber for that range.

Also if you make a PDW really effective it can replace half of your standard longarms.

You can then relegate half of your longarms to full size Battle Rifles firing stout shit like 6.5 Grendel or 762N.

Thats when your PDW shoots some pretty light ammo with a 40-50 round capacity, can still hit reliably at 300 yards, and has recoil so soft a burst will probably hit the same guy a few times.

Also a PDW should be able to double as an SMG too so you dont need your SMGs anymore except for specialized work (like suppressed, or some place where they have a shitload of surplus pistol ammo).

>>32052117
The problem is that PDWs are being designed primarily to fill the role that SMGs left behind, most require their own proprietary ammo, you can get similar performance out of a normal .300 Blackout SBR, and if you choose the .300 Blackout SBR, you don't need to change your entire rifle platform.

>>32052152
.300 blk gives you similar performance to 7.62x39 if I recall. not ideal for a pdw

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>>32049658
A 16" .45-70 is a good PDW.
>light
>compact
>hits out past 200 yards
>can be suppressed and use subsonic ammunition
>will put a man the fuck down if it hits, even if he's wearing armor

>>32051761
Is this a picture for sloths?

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Give me these in 10mm and send me off to war.
I'll fight with a happy heart and strong spirit.

>>32052378
phone erases exif data

I always post the idea I have for a PDW round that I am in the process of making. A .30 carbine necked down to 6.5mm. the idea being around with high ballistic efficiency and ridiculous sectional density that can retain the muzzle energy of .44mag out at 200 yards

>>32052389
Dunno what you mean. I meant its upside down

>>32051046
So use 5.45 russkie instead. It loses very little energy out of a short barrel compared to 5.56 NATO.

>>32052404
Exif data includes location picture was taken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exif

4chan scrubs the exif data from images uploaded from a mobile device. The exif data coincidentally includes the orientation of the picture which means that it may be posted upside down or sideways.

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>>32052414
That sort of defeats the point of this whole discussion though.

I'd also like to see the ballistics proving that. If it's true, that's very interesting.

>>32052454
Oh, okay. Didnt know that.

>>32052457
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-86603.html

>>32051761
What would it take for you to actually set that off in your car? Do you also carry earpro with you? Not trolling, just curious. I realize being profoundly deaf is better than being dead, but still I'm curious.

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>>32052070
>The M4 Sucks
>It literally becomes the "pokes holes in people" kind of rifle people complain about it being. The fabled effectiveness of the 5.56mm round is when you use 18+ inch barrels.
Do you know how hard you were memeing back there?

>>32052509
>literally $75 a box

>>32052509
>having specially designed rounds to mitigate the shiftiness of using a cartridge out of role
>this somehow means it's great at it

SBR fags will say whatever it takes to look cool, I swear

I miss the era of the SMG but the PDW put it out of commission and now the SBR has put the PDW out of commission.

>>32051802

Is the Mp5 even still in general use with how SBRs have taken over?

>>32052495
The force cone is designed to direct the blast and noise away but I don't really carry it or plan to use it from the car. I just like that I can have it loaded in the car ready to use, unlike with a regular rifle.

>>32052529
It isn't, but even if it was, I don't see how that pertains to someone still thinking the "muh icepicking 5.56" bullshit is still relevant today.

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>>32052540
>making a round work in a role means its shit
I know you PDW fags are really, really salty that your meme gats fell flat on their asses, but let's not go full fucking retard here.

>>32052548
Pretty sure pilots and crewman still have them in reserve.

MP5 is probably still a weapon of choice by tactical teams.

>>32052509
Are you the kind of person that thinks you lose an entire Mach speed when you cut 4 inches off a barrel?

>>32052564
Someone's projecting harder than his potatoh gun ever will

>>32052573
subcarbines have replaced them awhile ago by and large, this isnt the 90s anymore

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>>32052564
>I have to prove to the internet that I didn't waste time and money on a compromise that militaries only make because of the economy of scale

>>32052598
>>32052583
>>32052617
>S-SBRs totally perform like shit guys...
>No, please ignore this ammo that works just fine out of shorter barrels, it doesn't count
>PDW isn't a dead concept that hasn't been largely passed over, seriously...
Your COD-kiddy tears are delicious.

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>>32049658
> tfw no 9a-91 in my life

why not just use an rdb. 16" barrel 5.56, uses ar-15 mags. overal length and weight similar to m4

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>>32049658
I don't see them as useless, in fact I see current handguns on the battlefield as being useless. PDW's shouldn't be thought as a replacement for rifles, but rather handguns.
Something like the 6.5 cbj looks promising. It can penetrate armor easily and it can be used in firearms originally chambered in 9mm with only a barrel swap in some cases. So imagine instead of an M9 handgun you'd have a micro-uzi which adds one more pound, but in exchange you can have 20-30 rounds of full auto fire that can penetrate lightly armored vehicles if need be.
Pic is 6.5 penetrating an armor plate from an MT-LB

>>32052953
>do the barrel swap in a hipoint
>now have a <$500 carbine that can blow holes in vehicle armor
FREE MARKET FIXED IT

>>32052991
If you can get the 4mm tungsten sabot rounds, then yes.

>>32052736
Yet again you have completely missed the point. Militaries have passed up PDW's because "okay" is good enough when it means not spending millions on a new system and logistics. You can't use the "b-but military" argument to make claims about the effectiveness of a weapon in a given roll when the only reason it was chosen for that roll is cheapness. So please, quit trying to justify your own insecurities by comparing yourself to an entire military

>>32052953
>6.5 cbj

Yea, about that penetration. That is a tunsten sabot. Fire an AP round 5.56 (M995) or 7.62 (M948 SLAP) at that plate and see what happens.

>>32053120
Probably not much out of the same barrel.

Are special rounds only allowed when it's out of your sbr or something?

>>32053120
>That is a tunsten sabot
I'm aware. Should have added that
>Fire an AP round 5.56 (M995) or 7.62 (M948 SLAP) at that plate and see what happens.
And you're getting those 5.56's and 7.62's into a sub 3.5lbs package that can holstered and brought up as easily and quickly in tight spaces? They're also issued armor piercing in lieu of M855 and M80 regularly? Cool beans

>>32053113
>Militaries have passed up PDW's because "okay" is good enough
Really? Not because SBRs are a lot more effective and versatile all around ? How's that bubble of denial you're living in, kiddo?

>>32049973
>There just isn't a round in existence that is best for this role.
.221 Fireball or the various wildcats based on the case. Or the various wildcats based on 30 Carbine. KAC already did their PDW concept in 6mm Whisper, which is based on 221.

>>32053113
In what way is a PDW superior to a 10.5" AR for a military?

The PDW, as a concept, turned out to be incredibly niche and either matched or surpassed by SBR versions of already fielded rifles. This is something that has long been acknowledged. Did you recently buy a PS90 and are going through some post-purchase remorse?

>>32053305
Not the guy you're bantering with, bUT I love my ps90, one day maybe it'll be a p90, and when that day comes it'll be my hdgun. Right now my 14.5 ar fills the role because i'm not an idiot.

>>32053305
If you read carefully, you'll notice I specifically said it doesn't make sense for a military when sbr's work "okay" at that role. "Okay" doesn't mean ideal, though

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>>32049658
hello, /arg/ is gay

>>32051046
> 5.7 is more effective out of its 10.4 inch barrel than 5.56 is out of the m4's 14 or 10.4 inch barrel.
Bruh....

>>32053387
.300AAC?

>>32053412
5.56 is just a pistol cartridge with an obnoxious fireball out of a barel that short.

>>32053369
You didn't answer my question, you implied a PDW would offer something over a SBR and that the only reason a military wouldn't adopt it was because the SBRs did the job merely "okay" and it wasn't worth adopting a whole new type of weapon. What is this reason, and why does it elevate them over SBRs so?
>>32053412
This thread is a fucking ride all right.

>>32053423
>5.56 is just a pistol cartridge with an obnoxious fireball out of a 10 inch barrel.

Uuuuuh, no?

Since when did 2,500 ft/s muzzle velocity equal a pistol cartridge?

>>32053423
no

>>32051816
Memes are life, so anybody on here has a right to them

>>32053437
Optimized ballistics out of a shorter barrel. It's literally made for this role. Sbr's simply adopted it. You can have a smaller, lighter rifle with a larger magazine capacity and is easier to handle (albeit 5.56 doesn't have much recoil anyway). Ammunition is smaller and lighter so more rounds can be carried in a smaller and lighter package. In the given role more rounds probably isn't necessary, but it's still a plus

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>>32053554
>Optimized ballistics out of a shorter barrel.
There are multiple ammunition types to choose from that make SBRs perfectly fine, on top of the superior performance inherent with their intermediate ammunition.
>You can have a smaller, lighter rifle
Unless you have the MP7, which is literally designed for you to magdump in a split-second as you get the fuck out of a room, several SBR offerings are plenty small and lightweight to compare to PDWs. Again, ALL of this, on top of having greater versatility, effective range, and ergonomics.

So, really, the only thing you can put up is higher magazine capacity, and even you admit that that doesn't really matter that much.

Sounds to me that, as I've been saying from the beginning, the PDW is an exceedingly niche weapon with an equally niche role to fill that would not serve the military better than an SBR, save for extremely specific scenarios, and were not passed up simply because it wasn't worth the cost of taking on a whole other type of weapon and corresponding ammunition.

I don't even get what the point of this thread is. A PDW is something with optimized ballistic performance in a small package. No, not an AR SBR, something that has better ballistic performance out of a short barrel than a short AR, optimally way the fuck smaller too.

Optimal for

a) guards, mainly high profile shit. the smaller and more comfy you make it the easier they will be able to move around and the more likely they will keep it on them and at the ready. Its kinda like when you put the anti-cut glove dispenser right next to the cutting tool dispenser at a factory, it will reduce dipshits cutting themselves. If you make a super light and comfy gun your guard wont leave his gun on his desk to go answer a phone or take a shit. Also, armor piercing and good vehicle use.

2. aircrew gun. it maintains the concept of the little pilots gun while giving them more firepower and armor piercing ability. Really, I dont get this. If my chopper goes down outside of durka durka city i want a battle rifle and i hope my gunner has a belt fed. Now, for a armored vehicle crew it makes more sense. If your tank gets disabled and you aren't blown the fuck up by a missle or something then all you are defending against is fuckers trying to to get in your tank or put explosives on you. Theres way more limited space in a tank and you wouldn't need the range, you have plenty of big guns mounted on the tank.

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>>32053849
get out

>>32053849
>something that has better ballistic performance out of a short barrel than a short AR
5.56 will shit on 5.7 and 4.6 in every single way save for weight and size even out of a short barrel.....

>>32053780
>greater versatility, effective range and ergonomics

This is straight up not true. Ergonomics being a bit more subjective and therefore more given to personal preference. Effective range and versatility in the case kind of go hand in hand, and since both 5.7 and 5.56 out of a 10.5 inch barrel have roughly the same effective range of 200m, the intermediate status of 5.56 is sort of a moot point. That's just a casual analysis of the difference

>>32050278
This is dumb because the majority if a military is vehicle crews, admin personnel, mechanics, etc.

>>32053971
>Ergonomics being a bit more subjective
I dare you to say that swapping out a mag in a P90 is just as easy as with an AR. Try it.
>Effective range and versatility in the case kind of go hand in hand, and since both 5.7 and 5.56 out of a 10.5 inch barrel have roughly the same effective range
What kind of 5.56 rounds? As has been said several times, there are a variety to choose from, several that were designed from the ground up to make optimal use of short barrels. This isn't even touching on .300 AAC.

>>32049658
I think we should just categorize things different.

We have a Rifle, and a small rifle is a Carbine.
We have a Submachinegun, a small variant would be a "Machinepistol"

Then we have PDWs, which are their own brand of fuckery.

For P90s and MP7s etc, special snowflakes? Fine it's a PDW.

For tiny M4 things though, well Carbine doesn't quite cover it so how about this.

18-20+ is a rifle. 14-18 is a Carbine. 14 and under? Subcarbine.

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>>32052070
What about the 6.5x25 CBJ? It's 9mm necked down to 6.5 sabot with a 4mm tungsten projectile, which has the same trajectory as a 5.56 from an M4 with better penetration.

>>32049658
I want to build something in 9x25 dillon.

>>32052509

How well do you think Mk. 318 and M855A1 stack up to the Mk. 262 stuff?

Non-militarily, how does TAP stack up against them? I've heard they're one of the "go-to" rounds for SBR's.

I'm planning on getting a 10.5" soon after I fell for the rifle-caliber memepups (X95 a shit, RDB is okay), and am looking for some SBR defense/SHTF ammo to stock up on.

>>32052529
I've paid like 39 for 50 rounds or something. It's not unobtanium.

>>32054306
And the terminal ballistics of 2mm pinfire.

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Is being able to carry a high-firepower weapon loaded in your car the only legitimate use of a stockless "hand-rifle"?

>>32054590

Also, I was looking at 6.8 and .300BLK, but I'm not sure.

>>32054590
mk262 mod 1 is the best of the available military rounds by a large margin. M855A1 destroys rifles in short order but is an upgrade from M855, and mk318 is alright but really nothing special.

There are several TAP loads. The 75gr TAP-LE with the Hornady Traditional Match bullet is...pretty good, but still minorly inferior to mk262. The 55gr and 62gr TAP-FPD with the Vmax is shit across the board.

For people not restricted by the Hague Accords/Geneva Convention, the absolute best 5.56 load is the 70gr Barnes Tac-TX, with the 62gr TTSX load a very close second. Third would probably be the 64gr Speer Gold Dot, with the 62/63gr Fusion/LE barrier-blind loads a very close fourth (they're all Speer Deepcurl bullets, and a 2gr difference in weight isn't enough to change the ballistics noticeably--the Gold Dot gets the nod for the nickeled cases being a bit slicker and more corrosion resistant).

>>32050278
And the difference in size and portability between a 10.3" mk18/CQBR and a P90 is very minimal, while retaining much better lethality.

>>32052323
Supers are around 10% hotter than 7.62x39. Subs actually have a very miniscule amount of recoil and will cycle reliably even on full auto or burst without having to modify the rifle to the point it explodes if you shoot supers in it.

>>32052070
>Take a 10mm Auto cartridge
> Neck it down

Was done in the 90's and with ap ammo it could reportedly go through the side of apc. I remember reading on it when it was coming out but the company refused to sell it to civilian markets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.224_Boz

>>32054667

Thanks, I'll look into those. How are they price-wise? A quick perusal led me to $27 for 50 of the TAC-TX stuff, which isn't *too* bad.

I'll probably get laughed at as well, but how well do these stack up out to about 300 yards?

>>32052573
>MP5 is probably still a weapon of choice by tactical teams
Not really. Most major metro SWAT teams, the FBI HRT and all other Federal law enforcement (including Marshals), SEALs/Rangers/SF/DEVGRU/Delta/CIA SAD/DIA have all gone to SBR AR's. Many of them are also making the switch to .300blk instead of 5.56.

>>32054795
>Many of them are also making the switch to .300blk instead of 5.56.

Not him, but I already knew about the SBR's, but hadn't heard of anyone switching to .300BLK, got any links?

As far as calibers other than 5.56, I've heard of someone (I think it was LA SWAT) going 6.8, though I could be wrong, and that's about it.

>>32053238
>into a sub 3.5lbs package that can holstered and brought up as easily and quickly in tight spaces?
Fine. Stick a tungsten sabot in a 9x19 case. It'll leave the same fucking hole, and can be chambered in a pocket pistol.
>they're also issued armor piercing in lieu of M855 and M80 regularly?
Far more regularly than 6.5 CBJ has been issued to anyone ever, so...yeah.

>>32054834
DEA has gone with LWRC M6A2's in 6.8 for their enforcement officers.

>>32054834
I'll look for links. I know 3rd SF Group out of Ft. Bragg has 7.5" barreled AR's in .300blk, I've seen them in person.

>>32054847

Yeah, it was DEA, not LA SWAT, my bad.

Like I said above, I was contemplating getting something in 6.8 but everyone keeps telling me not to. How it seemingly hasn't been picked up by a lot of folks makes me think I shouldn't either. Then again, I bought 3 pistols in 10mm, so maybe I'm attracted to memes.

>>32054874

> I know 3rd SF Group out of Ft. Bragg has 7.5" barreled AR's in .300blk, I've seen them in person.

Neat. Ever since a pal of mine showed me his .300BLK SBR, I've wanted one. His is set up similar to this guy's except with a Romeo 3 (I think) he won somewhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLZ362Tdk4

>>32054883
6.5gren, for all its memetics, is objectively superior to 6.8.
>better out of short (<14") barrels at all ranges
>better out of long (20"+) barrels at all ranges
>better past 400m from 14.5-18" barrels
>less recoil
>feeds more reliably due to shorter case

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Anyone bought the xpdw stock yet? I'm debating on it just for shits and gigs. Don't want to drop all my sheckles on a troy and end up not being a huge fan.

>>32053238
>And you're getting those 5.56's and 7.62's into a sub 3.5lbs package that can holstered and brought up as easily and quickly in tight spaces?

Maybe not as light, unless you build it with super lightweight stuff which probably still won't be as light, but how tight a space are we talking? What situation would prohibit you from bringing up even an M4 near instantaneously? All the 2 and 3 gun I've ever done, all the videos I've ever seen, all the stories I've heard, even in tight hallways or from the back of a Bradley most folk should be able to get their weapon up pretty fast. Some Israeli dude was posting a while back talking about clearing tunnels out, and he wasn't issued a Tavor, but instead had to use a 12.5" (maybe it was 10.5?) AR and said it wasn't much of a problem.

Literally take your AR and a pistol down a hallway in your house and try and turn around and bring the weapon to bear as quickly as you can and you'll see there's very little difference if you do it right.

>>32054949
6mm grendel is better

>>32054949
>better out of short (<14") barrels at all ranges

I'm not sure I trust that. Is that with specialty loads? I thought most loads are optimized for 18"+?

>>32052457

god, i remember when i was in beirut the police guarding the upmarket district carried those. i remember seeing two heavily armed cops dicking around and one of them placed the barrel on the his partners chest, and his partner was laughing and saying "owiss, owiss" (shoot, shoot)

fucking lebanese

>>32054994

What forend is that?

>>32055051

(On the AR is what I meant obviously.)

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>>32055051
Trinity arms ultra slim if I recall correctly. Got it on sale.

>>32055017
Most loads ARE optimized for 18"+, but all loads are with heavier bullets than 6.8
>6.8SPC II bullet weight range: 75-108gr 6.8 "normal" load: 95gr bullet
>6.5 Grendel bullet weight range: 107-129gr. 6.5 "normal load: 123gr bullet
From sub-14" barrels both 6.8 and 6.5 are very close on velocity, so the much heavier bullet wins on energy.

>>32055090

It looks very similar to one of my UTG Super Slim's, how much you get it for?

>>32055145
Fifty doll-hairs

>>32054949
Is 6.5 Grendel really better than 6.8 SPC?

I thought 6.5 was designed as a 5.56 replacement and 6.8 was meant for urban combat?

But, IMO, .300 Blackout seems to be the thing that's getting more and more popular.

>>32052380
what's wrong with .45?

>>32049658
>>32049658
7.62x25 would be a great round. Penetration & compactness.

>>32050178
>A p90 is about 5.7 bounds
5.7 seems to be an ark number.

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>>32052070
That's only a problem with M855 rounds
Mk318 and M855A1 were designed for use out of shorter barrels

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>>32054753
Wtf this is perfect! Why is no one using it!?

>>32054753
>Companies that refuse to sell to Civillian markets

Why even make guns, honestly?

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What type of loads should I be looking at for my .300blk AR pistol?
Gonna be looking to buy some reloading equipment for load my own bullets this black Friday I want to make 2 types of handloads 1 for HD one for plinking

>>32054753
There is another PDW cartridge, something mm Jaws. Google it.

>>32055480
Next FN will release 57-round mags

>>32051998
Nah dude, it's a 5.1775mm PATRIOT wildcat cartridge, all the cool III%'ers at the range with tactical beards use it

>>32054949
6.8 has slightly more energy at the muzzle, very small difference, but once you get to any amount of range the better BC of 6.5 Grendel overtakes the 6.8. I would def prefer 6.5 to 6.8

>>32055383
6.5 was design to be a combined 5.56 and 7.62 replacement. I think the 6.8 was only designed to replace 5.56. Turns out 6.5 does most of 6.8 was designed for as well as being a good long range cartridge

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>>32056372
is that a poncho liner?

>>32053780
>that wrist angle
somebody give this man a replacement grip

>>32056372
>rolling your own ammo for HD

Enjoy prison when you put a few into Jaykwan Dindunuffin

>>32054636
put a "wrist brace" on it and it's a totally usable SBR or HD or whatever. Without a pseudo stock it's just a range toy.

>>32057494
Just never "brace" it against your soldier if someone other than your friends comes around.

Never know when the ATF are lurking around to score another victory for their Democrat overlords.

>>32054026
The vast majority of those people don't even carry a weapon in the first place, hence why a pdw is considered a niche role.

>>32054682
>while retaining much better lethality.

Assuming you are talking about non body armor wearing opponents then yes.

>>32051931
>It's that EVERY SINGLE PDW has its own round.
>>32052152
>most require their own proprietary ammo
"PDWs suck because I said so!" the post.

Complaining about every PDW having a different round? Get NATO to standardize, the Germans cried about the 5.7x28mm being better in every way than their pet project which killed standardizing it. That's how the 5.56x45mm became something more than some obscure shit nobody gives a fuck about, NATO declared they'll all use it and then they did.

Asserting it's "meme rounds" (stop doing this, it's dumb and doesn't reflect well on you) that are to blame and using that as the basis for your argument is ridiculous, I don't even understand why you would do this. I thought everyone was aware of the saga of the .280 British, another "meme round" that was unfortunately just a little too late to oust the 5.56x45mm we use now. Of course the .276 Pedersen is another example, waaaay ahead of it's time and offered incredible performance compared to the .30-06 but wasn't adopted because reasons.

If you want to make the argument that the PDW is obsolete or irrelevant, fine, but base it on something substantial.

>>32055458
>what's wrong with .45?
Not him but .45ACP is inferior in every single way to the 10mm Auto with one exception: availability. If you reload that advantage is negated, if not completely eliminated if there's sufficient supply.

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>>32054753
Let's not forget the .22 TCM. Easy to make and reload at home since it uses standard .556 brass cut down, and standard .22 bullets. I for one would be fine with a little larger OAL and greater capacity, but 2700 FPS with a 40 grain bullet is no slouch!

>>32057644
Speaking of OAL, that's probably a big reason that ammo like 5.7 hasn't caught on in the civilian market. Pistol frames would have to be redesigned to accommodate the long length. Too much work for the mfg, then there are very few gun options for the round

>>32052395

What does it mean to "neck down" a cartridge? Shorten it.

>>32057797
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=necking+down+a+cartridge

>>32057723
That's probably the main reason the .22 TCM was made to begin with. Fits most standard frames, it mostly becomes a question of bullet-seating.

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this is the best pdw hands down

>>32054091
this

>>32054636
only retards think this tho, i just went on a huge rant in the last thread about "wut truck gun shud i git"

if you are seriously in a situation where you are escalating from your pistol, getting a gun out of the truck or backseat, you better pull out a huge fucking full size gun that shoots a full size round

>>32054997
>Literally take your AR and try and bring it up to fire out of a window in your car
ftfy
Again, handgun replacement for those who don't need a rifle. You're probably the same faggot who thought that handing out M1 Carbines in lieu of a handgun was bad.
>>32054839
>Stick a tungsten sabot in a 9x19 case. It'll leave the same fucking hole, and can be chambered in a pocket pistol.
And lose out on fa, range, and stability
>Far more regularly than 6.5 CBJ has been issued to anyone ever, so...yeah.
So not regularly at all? Excellent point

>>32055458
SLOW AND FAT

>>32055383
6.5 grendel has better ballistics than .308 and is more lethal. Take that for what you will. Last I looked into 6.8 SPC it was out performed by 6.5 grendel as well.

>>32057811
How does .22 TCM do compared to 9mm? Was thinking about grabbing one of the RIA double stacks that comes with a barrel for both.

>no one mentioned the AAC Honey Badger yet.
Shame. SHAME!

>>32061336
Did you see OPs picture

>>32061343
Well.. no. But it hasn't been talked about. Technically.

>>32054753
>>32056583
apparently there's a nordic subgun that uses one of these to pierce armor

>>32056372
Nice wubbie brah

>>32059705
>Literally take your AR and try and bring it up to fire out of a window in your car

Clearly we're not talking about military applications at this point, but even then, flip the stock over your shoulder, get the barrel out the window, then shoulder it, it's literally the easiest fucking thing, they do it at 2 & 3 gun matches and classes all the time, even through the front, there's little to no difference between the time and/or effectiveness between firing an M4, P90, or MP9 out of confined spaces, even vehicles, which is a retarded premise in the first place since no military force I can think of practices that. Maybe PMC's and whatnot, but not standard, run-of-the-mil ground forces.

The M1 thing just goes to prove my point. They're like, what, ~35" OAL? I didn't hear many complaints about them, so what are we really to gain by going sub ~20"?

As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, even people with access to MP7's, P90's, Micro Tavors, etc. still use Mk. 18's more often than not when they can, so what does that say about "PDW's"?

Take your meme weapon/cartridge someplace else. There's a reason no-one's picked it up. If people start adopting similar weapons en-masse in the future, then I'll change my opinion and admit you're right.

For now though, shorter versions of extant carbines is what practically everyone is choosing.

>>32057492
Now this is meme racing.

>>32057631
.280 Brit was competing with 7.62 Neato friendo.

>>32060067
Fat is where it's at.

>>32063041
I know, I was tired and didn't proofread.

>>32060379
Where are the good 6.5 rifles then?

>tfw XCR will never have their easy caliber conversions
>only config they offer that I'm interested in outside of .223 is .300 Blackout and 6.8

>>32049973
6.5 Japanese.

>>32049658
The entire problem can be circumvented by a M4 sized rifle, with a folding stock.

>>32055458
Hello, I'm the guy you actually responded to. The 10mm will get you a flatter trajectory for the SMG and more effective range. Also, 10mm gives more enegy and more penetration while also increasing capacity. Despite being a lighter projectile, it is more powerful.

>>32050278
I agree. Why not give vehicle crews an Mk18 or M933 type weapon? Ergos are the same, ammo is the same, mags are the same, but in a compact package?

>>32064435

Not him, but I was under the assumption they already do. What do they give them instead?

>>32051761
In Ohio it has to be on your person or locked up if in a car.

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I'm trying to compare PDW style stocks but I keep finding more.
Here's what I got:
(-HKPDWC $299.95)
(-X Products ROC $303.95)
(-NEA CCS $320)
(-KES $350)
(- MVB ARC ($395)
(-Vert Stock $425)
(- Troy PDW ($479.95)

What am I missing?

>>32051761
Worst State Ever

>>32065732
That used to be the rules. Show us the ORC that says that. Section B and C of 2923.16 do not apply to CCW holders.

>>32055458
.45 isn't a meme like 10mm is.

>>32066748
CA is the worst state ever

>>32067175
>10mm is a meme
haha stay pleb poorfag

>>32059357

>escalating from your pistol
>getting a gun out of the truck

hahahahaha

>>32066708
m231 style on gb for $200.

>>32052495
Not him but I keep a pair of HL Impact Sport's on either the passenger seat or floorboard and a loose pair of ear buds in one of the cup holders.