How does someone train his reaction speed for close quarters?

>>31870227

CS:GO

>>31870249
Kys

>>31870227
repetition of proper technique starting slow and speeding up naturally without forcing it is the way to train any movement. however, what do you understand under "close quarters"?

>>31870227
Either spar with friends of charge into a pub and fight.

Tbjs is obvious.

>>31870227
If it's truly close quarters, like within 20 feet, you don't even use your scope like those noobs. You just look over rifle.

>>31870227
Squash

>>31870249
Ky:s

>>31870249
This desu.

>>31870274
>what do you understand under "close quarters"?
i understand that reaction speed with is the most important part about CQB
since that's the splitting hair about the fighter's life or death

(almost) every room clearing drill i saw (wether army, special forces, or swat or just civilians) was really really slow.

example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNj3wcOAy8A

in 2:56 the fighter exposes himself through the door and THEN in 2:59 they start shooting
i mean, the enemy would already pull his rifle and aim his sights on the door and he would have a 3 second window to shoot the Seal, right? correct me if im wrong but if that was a real scenario he would've been butchered.

>>31870400
You practice to do it right, regardless of how long it takes. Speed comes naturally, and it's better to starting slow correctly than to start fast with fucked fundamentals.

>>31870400
Crawl walk run but honestly if I ran while clearing something was fucked. Move fast enough to do the job but more importantly slow enough for your team to keep up. Some airsoft ninjas actually get this but hyper speed means less accurate shots when already doing reflexive shooting. In most encounters the dead guy is not patient and will do dumb shit to get shot. That being said pointman can suck and a lot of factors can fuck you. Pie the corner keep moving and double tap are the best constants

>>31870624
See this guy? Pay the fuck attention to him. 10k reps of simple motions. Then add a step and repeat

>>31870400
>i mean, the enemy would already pull his rifle and aim his sights on the door and he would have a 3 second window to shoot the Seal, right? correct me if im wrong but if that was a real scenario he would've been butchered.
Yes, which is why doors aren't used as points of entry against prepared foes. Either use windows or blow holes into the walls. Hell, if the enemy is too prepared, just blow up the whole house.

>>31870227
Step 1: Don't be a fat fuck

>>31870227

Counter Strike, doritos, and mountain dew are what the pros use

be the fourth or fifth guy in

luck and practice

it's so dangerous even 'professionals' are going to have a hard time doing it without being poked full of holes

standard military procedure is to frag grenade all rooms 1-2 times or just blow up the building if possible

>>31870881
Whoever can stuff the most grenade pouches on their back wins.

>>31870814
>just blow up the whole house.
what about hostages? if there are any?

>>31870249
/thread

>>31870227
Airsoft

>>31870911

Whoever can call arty on the opposing structure wins.

>>31871045

this guy is kidna right, but it will take a long time to build up a resistance to common calibers, 6mm plastic is very gutless ammo

>>31870400
Special forces trained my unit while we were working with them in country. They straight up told us to move slower.
They said moving rapidly does you no good if you aren't fully processing everything you see as you're clearing the room. Not to mention clearing rooms is more about addressing who not to shoot, and if to shoot; rather then putting holes into whatever moves. Target discrimination was their #1 priority.
It's a smooth, methodical movement.

I figured if these guys kick doors in way hotter climates than us for a living then they probably knew what they were talking about.

>in b4 I claimed to be sf. I'm no where near that high speed.

>>31871125
no no no, i'm not talking about moving speed. i'm talking about the time between exposing yourself (at a door for example) and the time your start shooting

that small interval gives barricaded the enemy a window of opportunity to shoot you

what would you do about it?

>>31871125
Anything else interesting they said? Was it overall a good experience?

>>31871125
Basically what we did as mps so yeah glad you got taught right

>>31871179
Pie corners bright as fuck flashlights, propper button hook scan sweep and flash bangs if you luck out and have (and are authorized to use) them

>>31871542
>Pie corners
yes, i'm aware of that, that's how i train

but, i'm talking about all the drills i saw online (wether professional special forces or swat)

like what the fuck, why do they make such a fatal mistake?

>>31870400
But this isn't a real scenario, I think they overemphasize slow movement during training so that when they're in a real scenario, adrenaline and fear compensates for the exaggeration. They don't actually expect them to move that slow I believe.

>>31870923
Collateral damages are a thing in wars.
Otherwise, you can just starve the enemy into submission.
If not, then at least you didn't waste lifes trying to get them out in force.

>>31871542
What good does a bright flashlight do if he's already got his gun aimed at the door? Isn't he just gonna shoot at the light?

>>31871634
t. some ATF dude who took part in waco siege

>>31870227
Train slowly and train it right. Train, train and train. So that if it ever came to the real thing you'd do right. Once the adrenaline of the real thing kicks in you can pull it off fast and precise.

I can't believe no one's said masterbation yet. Wtf has been going on while I was gone?

>>31871179
>>31871582

https://youtu.be/4WkUkMO3iJs

>>31871179
It will come naturally. Just train on doing it precisely and slow. In real combat your body pumps you full of adrenaline that will ensure your speed.

>>31871752
Those guys are showing off. Sure that's how it's supposed to be done but not how it's trained. Not in the beginning at least.

>>31871795
oh absolutely. it's from a USASOC capex, meaning this is a dog-and-pony show for generals and well connected civvies. The guys operating are most likely SFAUC instructor cadre, meaning they teach other SF guys how to do CQB.

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>>31871752
in exactly 56.5 seconds of the video the first op kicks the door off, comes in with his weapon semi-lowered, in that split second if there was a goatfucker who's aiming his AK at that door (and you can always there's a goatfucker with an RPK aiming at the front door), the op's gonna have a bad time

>>31871900
There's nothing he can do about it. You can walk around everywhere with your rifle raised but you need to target discriminate to shoot, and you can discriminate faster with your rifle out of your way. Not to mention that it's hard as hell to deliver any kind of accurate fire while kicking the shreds of a door left over from a flex linear charge. Better to lower the rifle, take care of the door, and get to work once that's dealt with than to fuck around trying to aim a rifle and kick the door simultaneously.

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>>31871752
>>31871900
In 1:02 the first op comes in through the door and instantly aims at the right without even slicing the pie
what if there was an angry goatfucker in the blue spot? (pic related), they'd all be rekt to shreds

sorry i have autism when it comes to this type of stuff

>>31871942
can't he kick the door, step back, throw a flash and slice the pie?

WHY DONT THESE PEOPLE SLICE THE PIE?

>>31871900
Also the right arm is raised elbow is extended when the arm should lining alongside the body this is making him a bigger target. Then again this is a show off run for speed.

>>31870400
Having done CQC funsies inna kill house with simunition a couple of times; everyone reacts slower than you'd expect. Most engagements I saw either had a second or two before people started shooting, or someone fired before the other guy was exposed enough and didn't kill him.

You move fairly slow up until you start firing, and then you move to prosecute the target or retreat fairly quickly. Until that point, you want everyone calm, collected, and by the numbers.

>>31871967
>everyone reacts slower than you'd expect
what if you're fighting a trained competent enemy?

>>31871945
If there was someone in the middle of the room, different units have different SOPs. The oldschool Delta way was to double-tap the guy in the middle of the room and then dig your corner. Not sure what they teach nowadays.

>>31871951
Throwing a banger is not a foolproof solution. The time it takes to kick, back out of the threshold, prep a banger, chuck it, wait for it to go off, etc. will be plenty of time for someone to point their rifle at the door and there is no guarantee they won't just start spraying when the banger goes off. Better to get inside, get eyes on the threat, and cut them down while you still have some modicum of surprise and aggression going.

As for pieing off every single door there is a time and place. Some structures you would be better off just getting inside the room rather than risk getting filled the fuck in by dudes down the hall. Some missions (eg: hostage rescue) you need to get the fuck inside and overwhelm the occupants before they can get their shit together.

>>31871979
Then you're pretty much fucked.

>>31871945
When you're stacked properly, you all come through the door fucking fast. First guy goes a direction, second guy turns the other way. You should literally be touching the guy in front of you until you in the door frame.

You should be close enough that if the point man takes a round and falls back on you, you can shoot over his shoulder while continuing to move forward and essentially using him as a shield to eliminate the target who hit him. A plus is, that if you come through the door fast and move to a corner, someone in the opposite corner will actually be surprised you moved away from them, and will likely be off target when the second guy comes through the door and engage him. It's a risk, but it's less risky.

>>31872017
No, but seriously. If your enemy knows what they're doing, you're getting shot.They don't call it the fatal funnel for nothing.

>>31872024
>When you're stacked properly, you all come through the door fucking fast.
show video example?

>>31872038
I said you're fucked because you can expect to have casualties and the command ordering the whole shit show sure as hell ain't gonna take responsibility for the shit that follows. So yeah your not just fucked but on every level imaginable.

>>31872072
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjCB9YLOuU0

>>31871678
Rifle plates catch a bit and let them aim at light unless they shoot high its equipment or plate also you would be suprised how often people hesitate or flinch in light strobe for bonus but not required. In the end point man must be ready to die and take the fucker with him

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>>31872108
bad example

it's not even that fast

and pic related
if the first guy in 0:13 is facing the right, so the goatfucker in position (2) (or even position 1) could tear him apart, even if the second op comes in, it'd be too late because the goatfucker emptied half mag into the op's back, it's all ogre

also i see no flashbang or frag getting thrown, so,a goatfucker who knows what he's doing (1) could mag dump into the door and bang, at least 3 injured ops

HRT is really overrated

>>31872173
Depending on mission you can't just frag or flashbang every damn room. Also supplies, depending on mission you may be limited.

>>31871582
Ever see a guy in full kit trip moving too fast? Shitty way to die and kill your buddy tripping up behind you. Train slow and smooth. Increase speed keep smooth. Identity max smooth speed this is how fast you go as a team. It takes dozens to hundreds of tries to get right and constant refresher courses. Who knows where they were in this process

>>31872198
what about my other points

>>31872173
You realize this is how it's done basically everywhere, right? You watch a video of CAG guys hitting a room and it wouldn't be any different. You can't get into a room and cover both deep corners simultaneously, there's always a gap unless it's a fucking doublewide door. If you do the israeli 2 man thing you're just asking to get jammed up in a typical US residence. Now half the entry team is down in the threshold and there's basically no chance the team is making it in to clear the room and rescue the hostages.

You can't frag in a hostage rescue. Bangers are nice but if you blew the door in with explosives it's not always a good idea to slow down the stack to prep a bang. Usually you have to stack at a minimum safe distance or something so you need to go through that door at full speed to take advantage of any surprise from the breaching charge going off.

honestly based on your criticisms it's obvious you have no idea how it's actually done in the real world. you definitely haven't had any on-the-job training in this arena.

>>31872217
oh I don't disagree, it was sloppy as fuck - everyone looked super fucking nervous.

I've seen better room clearing when teaching SOCP to new guys.

>>31872024
My man where were have you been. This is quite right and much harder than it sounds. It is not perfect but it works most of the time and our equipment helps.

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>>31872166
Why don't they give point-man something like this?

Obviously make it more modern and less retarded, but the basic idea seems sound. A ballistic shield with a port for a PDW.

>>31872233
Steep learning curve and why let good videos out for goatfuckers to study. Seriously though few units spend that much time training and Fallujah retaught us a bunch of shit in a hurry. Only had to clear an occupied compound once........ well hashish and poking the chai boy do much to blunt enemy combat readiness

>>31872304
Weight ability to move has to pass procurement and again weight. Anything that would be nij 3 or above would suck to move with. That being said cut it to 10 pounds with multi hit capability and I would rock it with a m9 on point backed up with m4 and saw

How does someone do anything at all?

>>31870227
Haven't read the thread yet, so this might already be stated but

First: Muscle memory. If you don't have to think about it, you do it faster

Second: Anticipate. Know where to expect people, what they're going to do, etc.

Third: don't worry about it kiddo, you'll never get to live out you oper8er dreams

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>>31872346
I don't see why weight is an issue, he's not gonna be hiking with it. If your raid takes more than 10 minutes, you done fucked up.

I mean obviously it doesn't make sense for your average 11b to lug around a 30lb shield in the event that he has to kick down a door or two, but a SWAT unit has a lot to gain and nothing really to lose.
He'll only be carrying the shield for a few minutes.
Hell, maybe you could even put wheels on it, like a modern pavise.

>>31872173
Explosive breach will trigger body alarm response and impact on the bg's reaction time and information intake enough to give the breach element just the needed element of surprise.

I read through most of the thread and OP is just a critic.

He doesn't realize how high the casualty rate is for room clearing. And he doesn't realize that the tactics he's criticizing are there because people kept dying by doing it his way, and nearly every unit has adapted their tactics to keep their teams from dying while maintaining as much effectiveness as possible.


>Just flash bang everything
>why don't they slice the pie
>but why does he turn left, what if someone was on right
>but why did he turn right, what if someone was left
>what if what if

OP people die in CQB. There's no way around how paralyzingly, utterly dangerous it is. The videos you watch are using tactics that are the result of every single after action report since Hue City in Vietnam. The shit is always getting tweaked in combat, then cross trained, then cycled into low level training, while still being tweaked in combat, cross trained, and cycled into training.

Shit dude in 2003 SOTG was teaching us some super pimp room clearing in their DAP program. Then in 2005 some random infantry unit was teaching us the exact same super pimp room clearing shit, but even better because they had just cleared warehouses in Iraq earlier that year and it really upped their game. In 2008 ALL of that was rolled into the infantry CQB shooter school. The shit keeps getting better because people die, then their friends sit back and say "shit if we would have done it the other way, he'd still be alive. let's try it the other way next time." You're literally looking at the result of decades of constant combat evolution.

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>>31872304
Something like this? They did, this is the assault wall thing the french used during that terrorist thing a while back. IIRC it weighs like a literal half ton, but will stop pretty much anything that APC armor would. Those impacts are 7.62x39 at same-room ranges.

>>31872941
badass, now all it needs is a port for a gun, so the assault wall wielder can shoot back.

>>31872923
This guy gets it. Clearing rooms is still messy and fucking dangerous. I went through said infantry school in 2009 and the instructors were always stressing that being pointman on this shit is probably the most dangerous shit you'll be asked to do. It's a messy, inexact science. Goatfucker in the wrong spot or ready for you? Better hope he misses or gets your plate, because you're fucked. Missed a door trap? You're fucked. Trap right inside the door? You're fucked. Your only consolation is that your buddy right behind you stands a pretty decent chance of gunning the fucker down and getting you casevac'd the fuck out of there. If not him, then the next guy through the door. It's shitty, but that's war and short of blowing the whole thing to hell, nobody's been able to come up with a better solution.

The best I've ever seen it done was some SF types who had the shit down to an art. They had a guy with a flashbang ready to go and had their timing down so they could breech, the guy would fling the flashbang through the crack, it'd go off pretty much right inside the room, and they'd pile in all in under five seconds. Was pretty badass.

>>31870831
Can't die if you can't get through the door.

Or can you?

>>31872941
>IIRC it weighs like a literal half ton
Hell no. Do you realize what a LITERAL half ton is?

>>31870227
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmEU4dSNHU

>>31872923
Fucking this.

Also, you don't sit there and try to pie every door OP. Most walls don't provide shit for ballistic protection and your whole team will get hit if the dude inside decides to open up on the wall while you're taking your time around a doorway.

You need to get all your dudes in the room and clear it with overwhelming violence and speed of action before the bad guys inside realize what is going on.

>>31873107
Do you not see the wheels at the bottom of this thing? It could be literally half a ton, with half a dozen people behind it.

>>31872173
There is a reason it is called a "fatal funnel". Soldiers are fully aware. However, it is not always the case that OPFOR is fixed on a door. The idea is move methodically so that no corner is left unchecked. They move quickly enough that within a few seconds, the room is clear. Every unit has there own SOP, but often the first man (1) will scan from front to their side to continue to the far corner. By the time (1) has made his initial turn, (2) should have his weapon scanning front to opposite side, mimicking (1)'s movement now to the opposite corner. (3) moves to (1) side, scan low (depending on SOP). (4) moves to (2) side, scan high (depending on SOP). Very basic, but that's the gist.

>>31870227
Start punching everything that surprises you. Keep ingraining that into your mind,

>get spooked when I guy rounds a corner
Punch his ass
>roommate knocks on your dooor
punch your PC
>UPS driver surprises you
punch your closest piece of furniture
>jump scare in a movie
punch your popcorn/GF

>>31873869
MP agreement with infantry. Pie works when you can take time. That is rare and while rushing in may look retarded we killed way more of those fuckers than they even wounded us.

>>31873877
What is penetration through walls, slow speed, ied, firebombs, noise, and most fucking critically stairs. Weight matters even on swat......oh and cost good luck getting that funded

>>31872923
Care to talk about some of the shit you learned? I promise I'm not a goatfucker

>>31870227
General body-eye coordination, hyperfocus (the "slowing time" effect, not sure if can be trained), muscle memory (fancy term for reverting to previous training exercises), and a good phosphagen system (supplement creatine and train to optimize fast twitch muscle fibers). Though you'll need to train all of your energy systems (strength, endurance, and phosphagen) because if you've been fighting for 15 minutes then you go to a breaching scenario you need to have adequate energy.

So basically train more, faggot.

>>31870227
Run scenarios - ultimately though you augment your reaction speed with drills and protocols that mean that your barrel is already pointed roughly where they're going to be when you need to react - if you allow enemies to pop up at your 9 or 3 there's only so much having ninja reflexes can do vs someone who just has to pull the trigger.

>>31870249
Pretty much this.

>>31872228
>You can't frag in a hostage rescue.
unless you're russian.

I am always curious about something;

From all the room clearing videos on youtube, the first guy who goes into a room doesn't really scan the entire room, it's left up to the second guy right behind him.
And even with a fast 2nd guy. The way they go about it is that the furthest corner of the room is looked at last by both people.

If no flashbang is involved, what's to prevent an enemy to position themselves at that furthest corner and just dump into the guy coming in and quite possibly the 2nd guy?

>>31870227
I was part of a race team in college (FSAE) and team members would fuck with each other by knocking cups and shit off tables or desks around other members. the idea was for the person not paying attention to catch the object or at least get pissed...

Meth

>>31870881
please don't rescue me.

>>31875576

Phosphagen? Somebody does crossfit

>>31878121

>If no flashbang is involved, what's to prevent an enemy to position themselves at that furthest corner and just dump into the guy coming in and quite possibly the 2nd guy?

Why do you think they prefer dropping a PGM on a building than clearing it with troops? There are always risks, you can only minimise them.

Stun grenades were invented precisely because there is a desperate need to improve the odds for an attacker. Technology can help, but ultimately the reason why these operations are as successful as they are is by stacking the deck as much as possible. Even then something can can go wrong simply because some things are unforeseeable.

Use of technology (stun grenades, breaching charges, ballistic protection and other specialised equipment), intensive specialised training (most jihadis or third world soldiers won't have the same training), multiple points of entry (unpredictable direction of attack makes it hard to ambush), timing (attacking a sleeping enemy while you are prepared and rested), moving fast (so they do not have time to prepare an organised defence), outnumbering your enemy significantly, lots of suppression (grenades & automatic weapon use).

You practice "thing" until it becomes second nature and you do it without even thinking.

All of those high speed motherfuckers are literally going through the motions without even analyzing it in the slightest, it just happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbIIaW4aWI

>>31871125
You sound like a pussy. When we got room clearing training we got told "kill everything that moves. Men, women, children, dogs, I don't give a shit if there's a bird, shoot everyone."

>marine corps infantry at its finest

>>31870227
Martial arts, specifically sparring
Practical shooting
Training room clearing / running between cover and acquiring a static target

>>31878668
I guess the difference is that the special forces guys have a different missions than your regular jar head.
Cant get Intel from the opposition if you dome em all.

>>31870923
Collateral damage isthe word you arelooking for...

>>31878121
>what's to prevent an enemy to position themselves at that furthest corner and just dump into the guy coming in and quite possibly the 2nd guy?
Surprise. Some form of surprise/shock is essential.

There's a reason why in old school manuals massively overwhelming force was considered a requirement to even begin to take on a properly dug in enemy. Under the right circumstances defenders advantage is tremendous.

That's why commandos and DA SF and the like are so bad ass, because they risk everything on their ability to hit the enemy harder, faster and smarter than they can handle.

>>31870227
Is that PALS webbing on his PANTS!?!

I've always wanted to get some cardboard cutouts and have friends place them around my house and then run around shooting airshit.

>>31879666
>Surprise
what if the goatfuckers are already aware that the forces are raiding their compound?

>>31873097
>Shot through screen door